Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Monoplane fighters of '20s and '30s => Topic started by: xan on May 31, 2014, 05:30:38 PM



Title: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on May 31, 2014, 05:30:38 PM
Hi I'm looking for more information abou my new project , the Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China.

(http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/images/kozachenko_1.jpg)

I have a profil of his plane:

(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles/70_2.jpg)

I don't find any pic of this plane... Does anyone have one ?

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: KL on May 31, 2014, 11:44:50 PM
Hi Xan,
I couldn't find any photos of that particular Chinese I-16.  Actually, it looks that there are no photos of planes that were flown by the Soviet volunteers in China or photos showing Soviet pilots next to I-16s with Chinese markings...  Probably because it was a secret operation...

All Chinese I-16 photos available on the internet are Chinese, American or Japanese.  Even photos of Chinese I-16s in modern Russian books are poor copies of known photos from western publications.

IMHO, profile of I-16 No 70 is speculative and its association with Kozachenko is dubious.   :-[

following are Chinese AF I-16 photos from San Diego Aviation Museum:
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFQn
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFL8
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFJD
https://flic.kr/p/a5kypd
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFGg
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFDH

this picture from old Chinese book shows colours (air battle on Nov 04, 1939)
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6416/126007.7/0_75829_a89764d6_XL.jpg)


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: Troy Smith on June 01, 2014, 12:15:43 AM
What's type of plane is the spatted monoplane?   

It's not a type I've seen [or noticed] before.   

I had a quick search, found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_engagements_of_the_Second_Sino-Japanese_War

but this is not a type listed.


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: KL on June 01, 2014, 12:39:25 AM
Hi Troy,
it's Chinese AF Dewoitine 510

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-markings-camouflage/167161d1305141372t-chinese-prewar-ww2-aircraft-colours-d510-chinese1.jpg)

another photo from SDAM with I-16s in background
https://flic.kr/p/a5hES2

Chinese Air Force ace Liu Che-Sun posing in front of his I-16 fighter, circa 1937 to early 1938
(http://ww2db.com/images/air_i16_4.jpg)

Chinese Air Force I-16 aircraft, date unknown
(http://ww2db.com/images/air_i16_3.jpg)

Chinese Air Force I-16 fighter on display at the stadium in Nishinomiya, Japan, late 1930s
(http://ww2db.com/images/air_i16_5.jpg)

Following seems to be a ceremony when I-16 Type 10 arrived in China in 1938
(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16003.jpg)

(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16004.jpg)

Strange to see black noses on I-16 Type 10 ???


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: xan on June 01, 2014, 09:07:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                  The last two pics are not relly chinese army'I-16 but Sheng Shih-tsai warlord who fought in Xinjiang near kazaktan against muslim separatist
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Sheng_Shi-tsai.jpg/220px-Sheng_Shi-tsai.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Xinjiang_in_China_%28de-facto%29.svg/275px-Xinjiang_in_China_%28de-facto%29.svg.png)
Since 1932 Staline equiped him with a little air force who never get mixed to the chinese army. the symbol of this air force is the star in the fuselage (white , and not red)...                                                                                                
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qS5HZYLEomE/UTTVBliFcAI/AAAAAAAAFCg/nUmq2vVT8FE/s320/8469.jpg)
The only Rusian volonters I-16 pics I have is that one:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/06/01//14060108525214768312281435.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14060108525214768312281435.jpg)
Konstantin, black nose too...
however, in the chinese I-16 pics, most of them do not have the nose paint in black  
Rusian squadrons had just two numbers paint in the fuselage while chinese had four , the first two number is the chungtuy (squadron) and the last two the plane number.

(https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6137/5956293018_32f1d01c37_z.jpg)

Xan  



Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: Troy Smith on June 02, 2014, 03:29:24 PM
Thanks for the aircraft ID Konstantin, itwas late and I wasn't finding answers.

These 30's monoplanes are interesting looking beast.

I had a search, turns out Fonderie Miniatures did a 148th kit, export version in these markinsg as well, and found this build on britmodeller by Xan
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933426-fm-148-dewoitine-d510-gcii8-1938/
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/01/18//13011810313514768310774059.jpg)

I'm guessing this is the same Xan posting here?  Very neat work.


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: xan on June 02, 2014, 10:01:53 PM
It is the same ;)
like you i like very much the 1930 planes...
I have just finish an I-15 you can see in biplane section and I will start two I-16...
Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: KL on June 03, 2014, 04:18:33 AM
Hi Xan,
thanks for the clarification about the Sintszyan and its I-16s.  Do you have a date for those photos?

It is actually strange how many I-16s Type 5 with enclosed cockpit are present on photos.  At that time when first I-16s were delivered to China, in fall 1937 -  Spain was receiving "more modern" I-16s with open cockpit.  In 1938 Spain received only brand new I-16 Type 10, and it looks that the China was still receiving old I-16 Type 5 with black noses.

KL


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: xan on June 03, 2014, 10:07:24 AM
Do you have a date for those photos?
No...
In 1938 Spain received only brand new I-16 Type 10, and it looks that the China was still receiving old I-16 Type 5 with black noses.
Perhaps , I think we con see type 10 with black noses too in china

Ifind pics of a type 5 who fall in the japenise hands:

(http://s3.postimg.org/kva9czcub/bdd09edacef0ec90e831d477c09928c9.jpg)

(http://s3.postimg.org/s16lt6bb7/390b7be4ed0123421b484b6686ba5323.jpg)

(http://s1.postimg.org/58x7nv9db/7315a876fe918d04e792b800021e4a19.jpg)

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: KL on June 03, 2014, 10:10:58 PM
Hi Xan,
I think I read somewhere that those I-16s Type 5 were captured by Japanese forces in Nanking.  Interesting that Soviet volunteers started fighting over Nanking in November 1937, and Nanking fell a month later on Dec 13, 1937.

So, those are the very first I-16s delivered to China.  They left Soviet Union in Sept-Oct 1937.

KL


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: xan on August 23, 2014, 03:43:50 PM
I'm loocking for pic's of chinese I-16 type 10. it's quite hard...
The only few I fonded don't give much indication.
I'm triying to find a plane with 1938 color, without black nose.
I read that the upper roundels and the stripe diseapear as japanese planes dominated the sky
I haven' t find any pic who prove or improve this ...

this one is not really a chinese army plane but Xinjiang province plane in the West China.
(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16004.jpg)
no rouldel no stripes in the tail

we can'tn see anything in that plane:
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/23//14082303535614768312471933.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14082303535614768312471933.jpg)

in this one, it seems that ther is no stripe in the tail...
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/23//14082303535614768312471935.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14082303535614768312471935.jpg)

this is the plane I'm going to do, without pic...
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/23//14082303535614768312471934.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14082303535614768312471934.jpg)

Does anybody know about other Chinese I-16 type 10 pic?

thanks

Xan



Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: marluc on August 24, 2014, 03:25:52 PM

Does anybody know about other Chinese I-16 type 10 pic?


Xan,while ago I made a research of information regarding the chinese I-16s,and didn?t find a picture of a Type 10 besides the ones you shared with us.

And speaking of chinese I-16s,I noticed that the wing machine guns in the Type 5 had a longer barrel.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/polikarpov/I-16/I-16Typ5_21051_edit_zps16dcd912.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/marluc_foto/media/polikarpov/I-16/I-16Typ5_21051_edit_zps16dcd912.jpg.html)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/polikarpov/I-16/bdd09edacef0ec90e831d477c09928c9-copia_zpsffff779a.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/marluc_foto/media/polikarpov/I-16/bdd09edacef0ec90e831d477c09928c9-copia_zpsffff779a.jpg.html)

In the last picture,the barrel can be seen clearly. Could someone identify the type of machine gun?
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 24, 2014, 07:51:53 PM
Hi Martin,
I think that the gun is a PV-1, an air cooled version of the Maxim.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pv-1.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: marluc on August 26, 2014, 01:17:45 AM
Thanks Massimo,it`s very likely they are PV-1s as the barrel of the chinese I-16 is quite similar. Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China
Post by: xan on October 27, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
I finally ended my chinese I616:

In my french forum I  did first a description of the war btween Japan and China, too long for my English level.
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84688 (http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84688)
Anyway I would like to share with tou some informations I could learn doing this project.

My kit is a representation of the Kozachenko's plane, the first Russian ace in China .
I should say it's suppose to be , because the only representation of the plane I founded was this profil :

(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles/70_2.jpg)

Staline didn't want too much publicit?e about the USSR help to Tchang kay tchek forces...
The only Russians I-16's pic I founded was this one (I-16 type 5)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102012564314768312627283.jpg)

(I did the code as it appears in the pic.)

The chinese I-16 were painted in USSR acording to the 1938/1940 standart with  AII green
According to those standart downside had to be painted in AII aluminium as I-15 bis or I-153 were, but according to Orlov the 21 factory didn't use aluminuim pigment but a pale blue who quickly turned to neutral grey....

White and blue stripe and upside roundel were present until 1939, where japanese sky domination became absolute.

About the roudel, say that the chanese roudels symbolise a sun and not a star, so Japanese and Chinese had the same symbol in thir plane.

In 1939, political situation changes, with the war in the west and kalkin gol war against the Japan, and Russian troops get out of China, 200 pilots died there...


Well here are the pics :


(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071014768312628262.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071014768312628262.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071114768312628263.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071114768312628263.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071114768312628264.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071114768312628264.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071214768312628265.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071214768312628265.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071314768312628266.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071314768312628266.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071414768312628267.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071414768312628267.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071414768312628268.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071414768312628268.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071514768312628269.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071514768312628269.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071614768312628270.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071614768312628270.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071714768312628271.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071714768312628271.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071814768312628272.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071814768312628272.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071914768312628273.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071914768312628273.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/20//14102002071914768312628274.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102002071914768312628274.jpg)


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: 66misos on October 27, 2014, 06:42:48 PM
Hi Xan,
so beautifull! As usuall with your kits.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: learstang on October 27, 2014, 07:22:04 PM
Beautiful Ishak, Xan!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on October 28, 2014, 03:20:34 AM
Beautiful model Xan, but markings and association with Kozachenko are questionable...  :(

First I-16s Type 10 were definitively sent to Spain in spring 1938.  There was a lot of problems with wing strength at that time, production was delayed so most of Type 10s that were made by summer 1938 ended in Spain.  VVS regiments started to receive Type 10 only in summer 1938.  IMHO, Type 10 could not reach China before autumn 1938.

Kozachenko was a member of the first group of volunteers and he left China in May 1938 - so he could fly I-16sType 5s only....

Otherwise very convincing model.

Cheers,
KL   


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 28, 2014, 08:50:23 AM
Hi Xan,
it is a beautiful model and presentation work.
I would just check the side door, it looks glued not strictly parallel to its hinge line.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Troy Smith on October 28, 2014, 04:22:44 PM
Great model Xan

the paint chipping is especially well done.

Seems strange that there is a not an available Type 5 kit, I recently got an Airwawaves conversion via Britmodeller, which looks good but is no longer made, and was expensive when it was, and was intended for the Hobbycraft/Academy too so no idea if it would fit Eduard or Ark kits.

Did Ark models not plan to do a Type5?

cheers
T


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on October 29, 2014, 01:06:41 AM

Seems strange that there is a not an available Type 5 kit...


Type 5 would be more representative as a Chinese I-16 and it would be much better documented.  CAF Type 10 photos are extremely rare (I could find only 1 (one!) photo) and it looks that I-16 Type 10 may have been a "rare bird" in Chinese Nationalist Air Force - regardless of numerous profiles and decals.

IMHO, the following book gives most reliable chronology and numbers:

(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev3/2001-2100/rev2063-Chinese-Aviation-Book/01.jpg)

- by spring 1938 94 I-16s were delivered to China.  Those have to be Type 5 (see my previous post)
- in summer 1938 100 ShKAS machine guns were delivered to upgrade Type 5s to Type 10
- in summer 1939 additional 30 I-16s were delivered to China (according to veterans 20 Type 10 and 10 cannon armed Type 17)
- no deliveries in 1940
- 65 I-16s delivered in first half of 1941.  Those were supposed to be different than previous (Chinese designation E-16-3, probably with M-62 engines).  IMHO, it is questionable if these 65 planes were delivered in reality... (no photos of Chinese I-16 M-62...  ;) )

So, CAF probably had 20-30 I-16 Type 10 starting from summer 1939 - or just one squadron!  This is one I-16 Type 10

(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/2423i.jpg)

All those profiles of I-16 Type 10 with numbers 69, 70 and 71 and their association with Kozachenko are fiction...  ;D

HTH,
KL


 


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on October 29, 2014, 01:02:50 PM
Well, well...

According to this pictures type 10 were delivered fist:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/29//14102901011614768312654376.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102901011614768312654376.jpg)

Konstantin I think I allways present 70 code as very very questionnable, and I never trust in profils.
as you know , there is a big lake of russian I-16 picture.
The only one who is said to show russian squadron is this one (type 5)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/06/01//14060108525214768312281435.jpg)

Maslov, in his paper about the chinese I-16 in Air magazine n?4, explains that chinese I-16 use to were 4 numbers code, the first two were the squadron number (chungtui) and the last two the plane number.
the Soviets squadron always according to Maslov only were two number code.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/di0AAOxyhTFSQnYS/$(KGrHqV,!qEFItjiMK7yBSQnYSIUbQ~~60_35.JPG)

As you know, I built two I-16 at the same time: a type 5 and a type10.

here is the type 5 I will present you when the diorama will be ended:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/24//14092411155514768312552902.jpg)

My principal intention was to show the peint evolution between 1937 and 1939 (AIIz aparition etc...)
second, I found interesting show two soviet implications in war between the patriotic war.
I did yet an I-15bis in kalkhin gol war, so I wanted to explored the first part of Japanese and Chinese war.
I wanted to represent a russian piot to talk about Staline different attitude before Barbarossa.
(I'm quite sure that in occident we don't discern the importance of the danger represented by Japan for Stalin; it explains, in my opinion, a lot of thinks about Stalin attitude toward Hitler in 1939...

So I knew, and I said the decoration was not sure at all; but honestly, it represents, my opinion, how could look like a russian I-16 in Chine between 1938 and 1939...

Konstantin I open this topic in May, I find it's quite a pity that you give me your opinion, just now, when the work is ended, we could have think together another way to represent a russian pilot in China...

Thanks to all for your messages!

Xan




Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on October 29, 2014, 09:15:59 PM
According to this pictures type 10 were delivered fist:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/29//14102901011614768312654376.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14102901011614768312654376.jpg)

Type 10 couldn't have been delivered first:  First I-16s appeared in air combats over China in November 1937.  First series Type 10s were made in February 1938 and arrived in Spain in March 1938.  Interesting, but numbers and time of deliveries are OK in the text on that drawing...  So, if you replace "Type 10" with "Type 5" and vice versa, it gives you correct chronology:  over 90 Type 5 in 1937/38 and 30 Type 10 in 1939.

The only one who is said to show russian squadron is this one (type 5)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/06/01//14060108525214768312281435.jpg)

Maslov, in his paper about the chinese I-16 in Air magazine n?4, explains that chinese I-16 use to were 4 numbers code, the first two were the squadron number (chungtui) and the last two the plane number.
the Soviets squadron always according to Maslov only were two number code.

This is probably true and seems to be based on memoirs (photo confirms memoirs...).  Supposedly Soviet pilots asked for large numbers, easier to recognize from distance.

Photo clearly shows Type 5, not Type 10 - so your "70" is hypothetical, it shows how 1939 Type 10 would have been marked if flown in 1938 by Soviet volunteers...  :D


Konstantin I open this topic in May, I find it's quite a pity that you give me your opinion, just now, when the work is ended, we could have think together another way to represent a russian pilot in China...

:-[ Sorry, Nationalist China Air Force isn't my field of expertise...  Lets say that your model is a victim of poor information that can be found in popular literature (number of I-16 which were delivered to China in 1938 is wrong even in Maslov's books).

Suggestion how to make your hypotheticaly marked Type 10 more authentic:  Replace fuselage number "70" with smaller "2423" and you will have an authentic Chinese Air Force I-16 Type 10.   :)

Cheers,
KL

PS.  if you want to represent an I-16 flown by a Soviet volunteer in 1938 as your future project, you should go for:

-  I-16 Type 5
-  black nose
-  light blue undersides
-  fuselage number "67"

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on October 30, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
your "70" is hypothetical
I know it and I allways present it like that

Suggestion how to make your hypotheticaly marked Type 10 more authentic:  Replace fuselage number "70" with smaller "2423" and you will have an authentic Chinese Air Force I-16 Type 10.
If I'm not wrong, this pic is taken in 1941.
If I replace the number, I should have remove the tail's stripes and the wings upper roundel.
There by I would have a authentic all green I-16 with four little numbers...
you will understand that for a modeler's this choice is a little bit dry, and why I did not keep that option...

-  I-16 Type 5
-  black nose
-  light blue undersides
-  fuselage number "67"

just as I did for the republican one you can see above...

I could have represent too a Sheng Shih-tsai warlord's I-16 in the west of china, but I wanted to speak about china war...
(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16004.jpg)

kozachenko returned in july of 1938, so it's quite sure he didn't fly type 10.
well this pilot was not particulary important for me.
As I tell you, I wanted first to show the evolution of standard paints in the VVS

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/30//14103006415314768312659132.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14103006415314768312659132.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/10/30//14103006531714768312659165.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14103006531714768312659165.jpg)

I could have do another spanish I-16 or a kalkhin gol war one, but I didn't  ;)
so, soviet pilot get of China in november december of 1939.
Let me imagine that a soviet pilot could have fly in a similar I-16 type 10 in 1939...

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 31, 2014, 06:55:14 AM
Hi Xan and KL,
 I like the markings of these planes of the Chinese warlord.
(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16004.jpg).
(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16003.jpg)
Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qS5HZYLEomE/UTTVBliFcAI/AAAAAAAAFCg/nUmq2vVT8FE/s320/8469.jpg)
The six-braced star looks white in one photo, but darker in the other one. Could it be painted in another color, maybe yellow or gold?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on October 31, 2014, 11:09:16 AM
Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?

Hi Massimo,

you can add that pic too:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/08/23//14082303535614768312471935.jpg)

hard to say...
in the first pic, stars don't seem white...
I would say white, but without any avidence:

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/317/pics/271_1.jpg)

anyway the second pic is interesting for us because it shows seven type 10; the first two of them are paint in the old way of painting (brfore 1938) with black nose and surely old dark green...
Those plane were painted in USSR, and it means that type 10 were not all pinted with the new standart.

By the way, do you think that black nose was only applied in the old standart (before 1938) or do you think black nose could be painted  with AII green new standard ?
In my opinion , it's the first option, but I'm not sure...

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: otto on October 31, 2014, 11:46:09 AM
Xan, I cannot comment about markings accuracy, but your models are really well done!  ;D
Among my "to do" plans there is an 1/48 I-16 Type 5, possibly modifying an Eduard Type 10. What does it mean "Neomega 1/48" on your Type 5 picture? Is there a conversion set or a complete kit from Neomega? I did not find it on their on line catalogue.


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on October 31, 2014, 01:43:13 PM
Hi Otto,
it's a complete resine kit from Neomega, wich is not in the catalog indeed. It will surely be in the future. he is preparing an UTI-2 too...
I could have the kit because a friend of mine is neomega Alexei's friend too...
here is the presentation in the french forum
(http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82110&hilit=neomega)

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 31, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Hi Xan,
thank you for your further images.
I see the black nose on the closer two planes; it seems also that the overall color is less shining than on far planes, so it seems likely that a different type of paint was used.
I suppose that black nose was related to the old standard, but who knows, planes could always  be repainted for maintenance in partial or total way. In this case, the use of the more recent paint can always be justified, if one has to guess.
Both front photos seem to show that the undersurfaces of the wing consoles were silver; the discontinuity outside the landing gear leg is evident. The metallic parts seem grey, not a metallic color. I'm not sure about the rear fuselage, that was wooden and probably painted with a different color than the metallic parts; anyway I can't see any metallic shining under it.
It's difficult to say about the six braced star on the fuselage. The strong difference of its look inphotos can suggest a metallic color; I would guess gold because I think that it has an emotional value for Chineses (at least, gold, black and red are easily found in Chinese restaurants) but it is a guess only. Perhaps this mark was utilized on flags or uniforms of this warlord; it could be that an historian can find further informations on this.
Regards
Massimo




Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Troy Smith on October 31, 2014, 04:43:00 PM
Xan, I cannot comment about markings accuracy, but your models are really well done!  ;D
Among my "to do" plans there is an 1/48 I-16 Type 5, possibly modifying an Eduard Type 10. What does it mean "Neomega 1/48" on your Type 5 picture? Is there a conversion set or a complete kit from Neomega? I did not find it on their on line catalogue.

Hi Otto

the only Type 5 conversion I know is the Airwaves one, mentioned above.  Not listed at Hannant's who are the Airwaves supplier.
small image
(http://www.aviationmegastore.com/img/prod/full/3/6/43409_0.jpg)

I got one second hand recently, it's well cast, but is for the Academy/Hobbycraft I-16.   

I'll post up a better photo later.


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on October 31, 2014, 09:36:48 PM
Hi Xan,
to illustrate confusion in Russian popular literature - two profiles of your Type 10 No "70"

(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles/70.jpg)
(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles/70_2.jpg)

According to http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles.htm  this plane was flown by Soviet volunteer and fighter ace Grigoriy Kravchenko!!!

(http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/6/90/846/90846271_14_kravchenko.jpg) (http://www.tverlife.ru/img/news/62825/34806.jpg)

Quote
С 13 марта по 24 августа 1938 года участвовал в боях с японскими захватчиками в Китае. Летал на И-16  ( 76 часов боевого налёта ), в 8 воздушных боях сбил 7 самолётов противника  ( 6 лично и 1 в группе с товарищами ).

Kravchenko participated in combats in China from March 13 to August 24 1938.  He flew I-16 (72 hours in combat missions) in 8 air combats he shot down 7 enemy planes (6 personal victories + 1 in group).

Kravchenko had a stellar career:  commanded a fighter regiment at Halhin-Gol, commanded a special group during the Winter War ("Group Kravchenko"), became chief of the fighter inspection and commander of all aviation units of the Baltic Military District.

Twice awarded HSU (in 1939 and 1940), became a general at the age of 28!

Quote
В период Великой Отечественной войны на фронте, командовал 11-й смешанной авиационной дивизией, ВВС 3-й Армии, Ударной авиагруппой Ставки Верховного Главнокомандования, 215-й истребительной авиационной дивизией. Сражался на Западном, Брянском, Калининском, Ленинградском и Волховском фронтах.

23 февраля 1943 года погиб в воздушном бою. Похоронен в Москве у Кремлёвской стены.

During the GPV commanded 11 Mixed Air Division, Air Force of the 3rd Army, etc., etc.
Killed in air combat on Feb 23, 1943.  Buried in Kremlin wall...

IMHO, Kravchenko's I-16 may have had number 70, but it was Type 5, not Type 10.  Profiles reflect widespread belief that Type 10 were widely used in China between 1938 and 1940.  The truth is different: Type 5 was the most numerous I-16 type.  Actually, I-15bis was the mainstay of the Chinese Nationalist Air Force (there was even a group of Soviet volunteers which flew I-15bis), not I-16.  According to Anderssen,  between 1937 and 1941 Soviets sold to China:

-  289 I-15bis
-  76 I-153
-  197 I-16 (incl. 30 Type 10)

I-15bis was also produced in China.  Total production was probably 33 planes.

interesting...
KL  

 


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on October 31, 2014, 10:17:43 PM
Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qS5HZYLEomE/UTTVBliFcAI/AAAAAAAAFCg/nUmq2vVT8FE/s320/8469.jpg)
The six-braced star looks white in one photo, but darker in the other one. Could it be painted in another color, maybe yellow or gold?

The star (and the whole marking) are described as white in available literature.  In 1933 Soviets established a flight school in Sinkiang equipped with few R-5s and U-2s

(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/0cs.jpg)
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/395/pics/271_1_b1.jpg)

To date photos of I-16 lineup, check wikipedia page about the Sinkiang warlord Sheng Shicai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheng_Shicai

In 1942, sensing the Soviet Union's demise, he turned anti-Soviet, expelling Soviet advisors and executing many Han Communists, including Mao Zemin, Mao Zedong's brother, in hopes of securing the backing of the Kuomintang (KMT, Chinese Nationalist Party) for his continued rule.

(http://www.hkscalemodel.com/Insigniaofchina/i16003.jpg)

Airplanes are decorated with Nationalist China and Kuomintang flags

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg/225px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg.png)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Naval_Jack_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg/220px-Naval_Jack_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg.png)

In 1942 it is unlikely that planes were still in the original factory colours - more likely a local repainting.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on November 01, 2014, 12:29:39 AM
(http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles/70_2.jpg)
According to http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles.htm  this plane was flown by Soviet volunteer and fighter ace Grigoriy Kravchenko!!!

this was the start of my project; when  I saw the lake of documentation I thought anyway I had to use a beginning base which was that profile.
I'm afraid I tried to concentrate all the things I was loocking for:
- a 1938 new standard paint Type 10
- a chinese plane with the early national marks (tails and upper roudels)
- a soviet volunteer pilot
too much things surely...
But be sure and believe that I tried to keep an historical way, honestly...
By the way do the sovietwarplane comunity agree with my interpretation of the two VVS paints different standart ? (before and after 1938)
we can in my opinion found the same difference in soviet's spanish republican planes at the same period, as in VVS planes...


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2014, 04:37:16 AM
Hi KL,
thank you for the interesting informations.
I think to understand that, when the warlord was allied witt SU, there were not markings on the wings as on the profile of R-5 (if this is drawn right). Then the Chinese roundels were added in 1942 after the alliance with Kuomintang. A red repainting of the stars is unlikely because would have resembled both to Communist and Japanese markings.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2014, 05:16:37 AM
Hi Xan and KL,
Quote
Quote
By the way do the sovietwarplane comunity agree with my interpretation of the two VVS paints different standart ? (before and after 1938)
we can in my opinion found the same difference in soviet's spanish republican planes at the same period, as in VVS planes...

it would be good to resume the conclusions of recent discussions to update the color pages:
up to 1937, dark olive drab uppersurfaces and light blue undersurfaces (darker than AII blue when new, but turning quicky to grey), with black cowlings for I-16 only; an easily peeling off light grey was used on some metal bombers;
around 1938: dark green (comparable to 3B) uppersurfaces and grey/silver undersurfaces; few factories continued the use of light blue; metal bombers were painted forthemost silver;(but an apparently well preserved piece of I-15bis shows an olive shade)
around 1939: most types became silver/grey, only few as the I-16 preserved the dark green (or AII green?) uppersurfaces; metallic bombers were forthemost gloss light grey
spring 1940-spring 1941: AII green/blue mixed construction planes, A-18F/a19F metallic planes; some mixed construcion types show different colors on wooden and metallic parts. It's still to clarify if the dark shade of AII green of Akan is compatible with the lighter shade of the Bourget I-153.
Do you agree with this reconstruction?
Regards
Massimo





Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on November 01, 2014, 11:35:22 AM
I don' t agree with all. Note I'm not sure at all, and perhaps try to make standart in a period of test in the VVS is an error...
furthermore, the normative we can find can't be applied to all the planes.
anyway, it's important to try to make a chronology of thid period paint

1) 1927/1937
(I allways put 1927 because I saw that in your classification Massimo, but what did really happens in 1927 ?)

Upper surfaces color: dark green, according to konstantin: "Protective" green was dark, moss green (some Spanish modellers say it was similar to RLM 83)

under surfaces color: we have a really evidence (thanks to Konstantin) with the  stratostate URSS-1 (altitude rcord baloon) wich is kept in MAE in Paris. This was done in the factory 23, the same who used to make the Polikarpov planes (I-16 type 5 for exemple)
the metalic part of the polikarpov have to be painted in this color, and we can think that protective color for the fabric was close to it...
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/210226URSSbleu1.jpg)

the nose are painted in black in the I-15 and the I-16 (but the pics I saw of polikarpov RZ in Spain are not)
wheels were paint in black too in the I-15 ant the I-16

2) 1938 / 1940

it's the most complicated period.

The I-15 bis
upper surface AIIz for fabric
under surface AII alu for fabrisc and AE-9 for metal parts (grey blue)

The I-153
All AIIalu for metal parts and AE-9 for metalic part

the I-16
AIIz for upper surface
pale blue who quickly turned to light grey (in zavoy 21 no AII alu was used according to Orlov)

Alex a Rusian friend of mine, traduce me some part of the Orlov paper about the prewar VVS paints.
next message some Orlov paper element, but I have to go know ...
Xan

in febrery of 1937 a, general Alexandrov signed the  Circular


Alex a russian friend of mine gave the official deceret name an date, but I don't find it... it was in the late 1937...




Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM
Hi Xan,
thank you for the interesting reply.

About earlier planes, the colors reported at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/before1937/before1937.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/before1937/before1937.html) are from the indications of Akan catalogue, the best source available when the page was written. Of course, he did his researches, but I think that some colors could have been based on single pieces. The idea that they are well preserved and representative of a general standard is a reasonable hypothesis but not a proven fact. The date of 1927 is from his catalogue, but my page entiles 'before 1937' and the older plane in photos is of 1926, I think.
About the camo colors, Akan offers two colors: a 'khaki' (olive green) up to 1936 (don't remember well) and dark green 3B in 36/37. Both are found on the same piece of TB-3, the khaki underlying the dark green. A piece of Spanish I-16 of Montoya shows two layers of colors, the underlying one looks consistent with the 'khaki'of Akan.
The idea that the dark green 3B, similar to German 83, was of general use in 1936-38 is proposed by Konstantin on the base of the description of a Spanish R-5 or R-z. Please, Konstantin, correct me if I am wrong. One has also to say that the chip of AII green produced by Akan is dark enough to resemble 83, and darker than the color of the I-153 of Bourget. 
We know also that a green AE-7 did exist, but its shade and use wasn't exactly known by Orlov himself.
About the undersurfaces: we have the grey-blue of Akan, the blue of the URSS-1 (looks different in different photos, did you manage to find a good match?), the greenish shade of the U-2 in Finland (probably altered), the blues on the Polikarpov piece of Montoya (the darkest shade being probably the original Soviet one), the information that the blue used in Z.23 (or 21?) turned to grey, the fact that this color can be clearly seen as darker than AE-9 on bw photos... What conclusions on it? I think that, if it was always the same color, we should take the best chip (probably the baloon), darken and saturate it a bit and have an idea how the new color appeared, and consider acceptable a greyish version of it as faded color available on a still operative plane.
Returning to the greens, I could add that early planes as I-3 and I-5 had a further color, very dark and gloss, whose hue is unknown, probably an olive green or yellowish green as the other ones.

I am greatly interested to know the notes of your friend Alex on prewar colors. Could he take contact with Orlov in any way? I had contacts with Akanihin some years ago, but the bad quality of the automatic translation obstacled this.

Best regards
Massimo






Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: KL on November 01, 2014, 07:02:27 PM
I also don't agree with all.  :) ... you have combined info from Orlov, from Akanihin, my ideas and ideas from others and you got "dog's breakfast" (or "ensalada mixta" in Spanish).
just a few comments:

- I would not use word "khaki" for any prewar/WWII Soviet colour.  It has specific meaning in English, and it was used for something else in post-war SSSR.
- 3B is representative for pre-1938 "protective", it wasn't used on planes (spec not on fabric) but, aviation equivalents were probably very similar.
- change from 3B to 4BO started in 1938.  When it happened in aviation, I don't know...  ;D
- I am very skeptical with the theory "that the blue ... turned to grey".  This is not what we see on preserved pieces.

Overall, I don't see too much to be changed in your existing pages...

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2014, 06:37:07 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I am trying to merge all the sources I have.
I think to remember that 'khaki' was used on the Akan catalogue, but I agree that olive green is a more adequate definition. It would be good to know the date of transition between olive green and dark green, I think around 1936.
I have also to say that the piece of I-15bis in the Finnish museum (its photo at least) resembles more to the  early olive green than to a dark green.
It would also be good to know if the grey-blue proposed by Akan is an altered version of the same light blue seen on the balloon, if this is similar to the darkest blue on the piece of I-16 of Montoya. Unfortunately the photos of the CCCP-1 don't help much, my perception is of a greyish blue but I didn't see the real thing.
Another thing to clarify is if the green found on the I-153 of Bourget is compatible with the dark shade of AII green proposed by Akan.
On wartime photos, planes as MiG-3, Il-2, Yak 2/4 show clearly the dark shade of the fabric/wood parts contrasting with the lighter one of metal parts. On photos of I-153, we don't see this, besides the impression is that the uniformly painted planes conform to the lighter of the shades (A-19f?) and not to the darker one (aii green). This seems in contrast with the idea that the light A-19f was for metal planes only and the dark AII green would have been used for all primed surfaces.
I have also to say that I think that AII green and A-19F were less contrasting when new, and contrast increased with ageing.
Have you a way to solve some of my doubts, please?

By the way, I often look at color photos of modern Russian vehicles and planes, and the variability of shades is impressive. Some standard can be recognized, but in some cases the colors change according to the type, without taking into account planes and tanks repainted according to unit standards or improvised... I hope that the matter of prewar and ww2 planes is really so simple as we know it.
Regards
Massimo




Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: xan on November 02, 2014, 05:47:08 PM
I try to do an english traduction of the french traduction Alex did for me...with my poor English too hard. I thought the better was ask to Alex to join us in the forum...

Xan


Title: Re: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2014, 07:42:38 PM
Hi Xan,
this would be very good.
Eventually, an automatic translation should be understandable.
Regards
Massimo