Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on June 14, 2014, 11:17:49 AM



Title: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 14, 2014, 11:17:49 AM
Hi,
there is an interesting discussion here:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_300.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_300.html)
For what I understand, they are discussing about some document that describes experimental camouflages just before the war, and a document seems to indicate that they employed the unknown AMT-2, 3, 5 paints.
Who can understand better their topic?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 16, 2014, 10:06:34 PM
Hi, I've received  some clarifications and an interesting scan from Andrey Averin.
The image, althogh deformed , is interesting because it was probably published with the first order to camouflage planes, that remained widely unapplied and was replaced by simpler and more known instructions in June 1941.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/manualearly1941.jpg)

Unfortunately, all the few photos of polychromatic planes of early 1941 (I-16, LaGG-3, Il-2, Pe-2, MiG-3, DB-3, SB) don't follow these patterns.
About the colors and their number: there is no any document that AMT colors with unusual numbers and shades were put into production.
My idea is that some cans of paint were mixed on the field for tests, were numbered and then only the choosen colors were put into production as AMT, conserving the numbers and shades of the experimental ones.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 16, 2014, 10:51:52 PM
Drawings were published first time in 2009 book "Development of Soviet Aviation in prewar period (1938-41)" by A.C. Stepanov.

My idea is that some cans of paint were mixed on the field for tests, were numbered and then only the choosen colors were put into production as AMT, conserving the numbers and shades of the experimental ones.

What field tests???

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 17, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
Perhaps those of 1940. This directive was based on that experience.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Dark Green Man on June 19, 2014, 03:10:38 AM
Hello,
I am interested in some of these schemes for use on model kits.
of interest are the I-16 , Su-2 and Yak-1
would it be possible to get scans that show the block of color choices below each of the
ones I am most interested in ???


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 19, 2014, 06:41:25 PM
Hi,
these images are from Scalemodels.ru, I think they are the captions of the same drawings.

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/04/1396948064_3-col.jpg)

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/04/1396940096_235.jpg)

Who can translate the exact names of the colors?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 19, 2014, 07:03:39 PM
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/04/1396940096_235.jpg)

Etalon 1:  Light Brown (dirty sand)
Etalon 2:  Gray (with yellow hue)
Etalon 3:  Yellow
Etalon 5:  Dark Green
Etalon 6:  Black (achromatic)

HTH,
KL 


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 19, 2014, 09:08:15 PM
Thank you Konstantin,
what are the other parameters?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 19, 2014, 11:17:33 PM
Thank you Konstantin,
what are the other parameters?

5th column is Yarkost = Luminance
6th column is Approx area covered with each colour


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
Thank you, maybe this will help to guess a likely color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Dark Green Man on June 21, 2014, 12:30:23 AM
Hue , saturation and brightness values for the colors were listed in the article linked to at
scalemodels.ru.

that isn't what I was asking for...
what three colors for the I-16 ?
what three colors for the Su-2 ? (looks like no. 5 not no. 6?)
are they recommending AMT-1/4/6 for the Yak-1 ?


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 21, 2014, 12:43:34 AM
that isn't what I was asking for...
what three colors for the I-16 ?
what three colors for the Su-2 ? (looks like no. 5 not no. 6?)
are they recommending AMT-1/4/6 for the Yak-1 ?

From schemes posted so far (from Stepanov's book) only I-16 can be reconstructed:

Etalon 2:  Gray (with yellow hue)
Etalon 4:  Green (with yellow hue)
Etalon 5:  Dark Green

How could they recommend AMT paints for Yak-1 when AMT paints didn't exist?


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2014, 07:46:23 AM
Hi,
I've shown all what I have on these sketches.
I've asked Andrey for further informations, without any answer till now, so I suppose that he has sent all the images he has about this booklet; he hasn't the booklet itself.
One could try asking with a post in the topic of Scalemodels.ru. Probably there are two of them in possess of better scans or of the original. I suppose that ABC is Orlov.
Here is a citation from his post:

Quote
It is not so simple. I say that the color AMT-1 and the number of paint color to blend in standard 1, scheduled for 1941, were close (as close - I do not know), and the same applies for the AMT- 4 and -6 (although for AMT-6, I think - very close Delighted.) And the numbers are, of course, is no accident. Sealants AMT certainly developed on the basis of these standards. 's not for nothing that the conclusion of the report Test deform aircraft painting "Sat", "I-153" and "I-16", approved by the Director of the Air Force of the Red Army Air Force Major General Filin October 11, 1940 G. says: "8. As a result tests and sophistication desired color masking effect of color is given to the following characteristics Color Name Number of pp Brightness Hue Saturation on Ostwald on Menselu 1 dirty sand 0255-0240 June 5 to 1 2 gray with a yellow tinge 0195-0200 June 1 3 Yellow 0145-0150 April 3 4 green with a yellow tinge 0120-0130 00 3 5 Dark Green 0.05-0.06 00 -01 1 6 Black achromatic 00:04 More information on trials in 1940 can be found here http:// scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_0.html? NoCache = 1396944108 Some more data on these tests (eg, the formulations were tested in 1940 paints) can be sent by e-mail, possible relationship. This is not because of a conspiracy, but simply tabular data difficult to insert in the post .

CTS wrote (a):
Then I wonder how it looked AMT-2, 3,5 5-flower?

And what kind of response you want to get to this question? ? What would someone sent samples as a magician rabbit out of a hat
I can only say one thing: no papers, no mention of drug AMT-2, 3,5 I have not seen. were? can be had, but a limited pilot batch. O perhaps because they have not received index AMT AMT-4 Specification and -7 was approved 07/03/41 and programs for 1941 were developed in 1940. It 'important not to confuse these schemes with black and green camouflage pattern in 1941 , introduced 6/20/41 and sealants used AMT-4 and AMT-6 (as you can see, a few weeks before the approved specifications for these paints.)
Here's how that is so, it seems to me ...

The translation is unperfect, but it's interesting anyway.
It would be good if someone asks more on Scalemodels.ru.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2014, 10:03:45 AM
Hi,
a table with thranslation from Averin.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/tableAverin.jpg)

Now I wonder how to interpretate the hue of Ostwald  and saturation of Mensel (or Munsell?).
It's interesting to see that the reflectivity of the yellow is lower than that of the sand.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2014, 11:36:52 AM
Hi,
I've found two versions of the disk of colors of Ostwald: one divided into 24 parts, one into 100 parts.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/ostwald24.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/ostwald100.jpg)
In both them, the hue 0 corresponds to apple green, and more or less this can generate a color as AMT-4.
On the centesimal circle, the difference in hue with other colors is marginal, so both dirty sand, grey, yellow etc have a greenish look.
If I use the circle divided into 24 parts, all the other colors are strongly reddish.

The hues (in 24 choices) look better described here http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html (http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html)
but I haven't well understood how to interpretate the darkness and saturation, that doesn't look the same of this table.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 23, 2014, 10:35:46 PM
Hi Massimo,

Strange they combined 2 different systems; Ostwald and Munsell.  Even harder to understand why they didn't define colours in one system.

I've found two versions of the disk of colors of Ostwald: one divided into 24 parts, one into 100 parts.

I searched Ostwald's system and it is definitively based on 24 pure colours arranged in a circle.  Colours 05 and 06 don't exist in Ostwald's colour wheel.

Following illustration is from Ostwald's colour Atlas
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/experimental1940/ostwald100.jpg)

The hues (in 24 choices) look better described here http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html (http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html)
but I haven't well understood how to interpretate the darkness and saturation, that doesn't look the same of this table.

IMHO, those color tables are not related to Oswald color wheel which was made of pure colours designated with numbers.  In Ostwald's system, numbers were combined with letters which depended on the amount of gray (or pure black, or pure white), so that the colour was determined with 2 parameters: hue (number) and amount of gray (two letters).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Ostwald_Color.jpg)    


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2014, 09:09:49 AM
Hi Konstantin,
yes, it's strange that they mixed two methods. Perhaps three methods, because the darkness looks related to a scale realized on printed paper.
The main uncertainty is related to the hue; as you see, there are wheels with numbers from 1 to 24 (the most usual system); if interpreted in this way, the greys and browns are much reddish.  If interpreted on the wheel numbered 00-96, interpolating the hues, the look is much more greenish, but are more adequate to a 'yellow' description.
I hope to find a different color described with the same method: for example, if a blue hue is described as 60, it must be on the centesimal scale; if it is described as 15 or 16, it must be on the 1/24 scale.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 24, 2014, 08:36:19 PM
I hope to find a different color described with the same method: for example, if a blue hue is described as 60, it must be on the centesimal scale; if it is described as 15 or 16, it must be on the 1/24 scale.

I searched more today and now I am 100% convinced that colour wheel had 24 colours only.  Let me know when you find Ostwald's centesimal color wheel...

Colour wheel has 24 colours designated either as:

-  1, 2, 3, ....   24
-  00, 04, 08, ... 96

Check here:  http://books.google.ca/books?id=2kFVSRGC650C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=ostwald+vollfarbe&source=bl&ots=ZJ1UmrejO-&sig=mzG78rcNGMh37WctuiYcOba0MJY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NLapU_WqEI67oQS1_IKICA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 420, you will find shades of blue colour designated as 14 or 54.  Ostwald's colour space is described on page 89.

regards,
KL




Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2014, 10:30:04 PM
Hi Konstantin,
the chips are always 24, but the numbers multiple of 4  from 00 to 96 are 25; interpolating, one has numbers from 00 to 99, that are 100.
So, if numbers cited by the Russian text starts with 0 and have 2 numbers, it seems the centesimal scale.
perhaps I can try and see what comes out.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 25, 2014, 02:36:27 AM
the chips are always 24, but the numbers multiple of 4  from 00 to 96 are 25; interpolating, one has numbers from 00 to 99, that are 100.
So, if numbers cited by the Russian text starts with 0 and have 2 numbers, it seems the centesimal scale.

We agree that there are always  24 chips.  I can't understand How do 25 intervals and 100 degrees scale help???

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 25, 2014, 09:34:14 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I made a try.
The part on the hues was the easiest: I found a DIN colors table that has the same hues of Ostwald.
So the 00 of the Russian table is Ostwald 24 (apple green), corresponding to H=72% of Photoshop. So, 04 was Ostwald 1(lemon yellow), H=54%, 08 was Ostwald 2 (warm yellow), H=46% (not a linear scale, seems). I made some interpolations for colors 05 and 06.
The darkness was more difficult, the printed Russian table gives unconsistent results. So I made an arbitrary law on Photoshop: B= 10%+ 2x the brightness of this Russian document.
The saturation was difficult too: I found an image from a Munsell table, but the saturation of yellows go from 0 t0 20, and both 1 and 3 were practically grey. So I assumed that saturation 1 was 20% on Photoshop and 3 was 60%.
Here is the result of such assumptions:


(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/try2.jpg)

Of course I won't take it as accurate, but it's the best thing I can do with these data.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 25, 2014, 05:29:17 PM
The part on the hues was the easiest: I found a DIN colors table that has the same hues of Ostwald.

Hi Massimo,
interesting... could you please provide the link to that DIN color table?

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 25, 2014, 06:40:10 PM
Hi Konstantin,
it's this one.

http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html (http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 25, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
Hi Massimo,

I can't see 24 pure colors (vollfarben in Ostwald)...

here you can download scan of 1942 American edition of Ostwalds color Atlas: http://www.posgradofadu.com.ar/archivos/biblio_doc/Jacobson1942.pdf


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 25, 2014, 08:40:00 PM
Hi Konstantin,
it's not necessary to take pure colors. One can choose a column, pick a color and read its hue. Theoretically it should be the same on the whole column.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 26, 2014, 07:36:59 PM
it's not necessary to take pure colors. One can choose a column, pick a color and read its hue. Theoretically it should be the same on the whole column.

An elegant solution, I have to admit!

Your "Green with yellow tinge" (in reality 4BO or future AMT-4) looks close enough - so your approximations are OK.  I used wavelength for Ostwald's 00 colour and got "yellow-green", I suppose close to what you are calling "apple green".

I will check what they meant with those "brightness-luminosity" numbers.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 29, 2014, 05:43:25 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I've received some chips from Andrey. They are reconstructions of chips on printed paper from Sovet tanks manuals of 1942 and 1981 (if I don't miss the dates) so they are not necessarily accurate or identical to those of planes, but appear related as definitions of colors, so we should keep them into account.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/armychips.jpg)
I think I'll make some sort of compromise.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 29, 2014, 05:59:11 PM
Hi,
I've made small arbitrary modifications to my chips to align them better with expectations due to their name and more distinguishable.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/experimental1940/try3.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 30, 2014, 09:02:40 AM
I've received some chips from Andrey. They are reconstructions of chips on printed paper from Sovet tanks manuals of 1942 and 1981 (if I don't miss the dates)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/experimental1940/armychips.jpg)

Hi Massimo,
there is no doubt that colors tested in 1940 and those that appear on proposed schemes are the same as Army camouflage colors (i.e. tank/artillery colors).

"Dirty sand" is latter standard 7K
"Gray with yellow tinge" is 4K
"Green with yellow tinge" is 4BO
"Dark Green" is most likely old 3B
"Dark Brown" from Andrey's list is 6K

Regards,
KL
 


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 30, 2014, 03:47:24 PM
Hi Konstantin,
this idea is possible, but doesn't seem to fit well with the hue and saturation on the table. This dirty sand looks too saturate to have a value '1'  and the yellow (yg) looks more reddish than it, while it should be not reddish at all. The defintion of 'yellow' instead of 'brown' , 'Khaki', 'Ochre', 'Sand' etc is a bit strange for a so dark color, probably it is hard to be defined in other ways.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: KL on June 30, 2014, 06:37:48 PM
Hi Massimo,

... yellow (yg) looks more reddish than it, while it should be not reddish at all. The defintion of 'yellow' instead of 'brown' , 'Khaki', 'Ochre', 'Sand' etc is a bit strange for a so dark color, probably it is hard to be defined in other ways.

"Yellow" is actually the only puzzling color with no Army equivalent.  IMHO, it doesn't have any connections with postwar colors.  Its name could be explained by the fact that all four terms you are suggesting had already been reserved for other colors:

-There were already two "brown" colors - dark brown 6K and light brown 7K
-In Russian "Khaki" is equivalent to "zashchitnaya" ie. olive green
-"Ochre" was most commonly used pigment
-"Sand" was used for 7K

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 30, 2016, 03:49:19 PM
Hi all,
there are pages of interesting news and images on non-standard painted planes of the spring/summer 1941, part of which seems related with the directive of the spring 1941.
Here is the link to the last page, but the topic has grown widely in last months and worths a look. http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_520.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_520.html)
Regards
Massimo