Sovietwarplanes

General Category => works in process => Topic started by: 66misos on August 21, 2014, 02:59:00 PM



Title: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 21, 2014, 02:59:00 PM
Hi,
I started work on this picture today:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/Image002_zpsf2bd3a62.jpg)
Camo pattern on the both wings of "22" does not look like standard 1943 NKAP scheme.

However, there will not be fast progress, holiday and some other duties are ahead.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 21, 2014, 06:00:05 PM
Hi Misos, there has to be a change in color at the base of the stabilizer and on the sides of the nose. The plane was certainly repainted, probably the lighter shades are aged color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 22, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
Hi Massimo,
I am aware of it. It is evident also on the other Yaks on that photo.

Here is photo of the same plane but from the other side:
(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/4/0/5/1/a4775222-75-yak9-22b.jpg)
Also the right wing seems to be repainted far from standard.
Plus compare the level of grey in the tail star (bright), fuselage star (medium) and in the badges on the front fuselage (very dark, significantly different), although in all three cases it should be the same red color.

And here is another photo from the left side:
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Yak-3/Yakovlev-Yak-3/images/Yak-9D-3rd-Squadron-6th-Air-GvIAP-Black-Sea-Fleet-White-22-01.jpg)  

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 22, 2014, 03:32:05 PM
Hi Misos, I see. Differently faded greys and differently faded reds, it seems. Or perhaps they were polished on the nose to gain speed.
I see that 31 has a slightly different spinner than 22, probably from an earlier batch.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 22, 2014, 05:18:27 PM
EDIT 25-Aug-2014

Hi,
a little progress today:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140821_jakdevet_01_zps9cf6b911.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 25, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
Hi,
the plane no. 22 is basicaly finished, see picture above. Now the respective corrections according to your comments & suggestions and the rest planes.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 25, 2014, 09:56:09 AM
Hi Misos,
looks good. I'm waiting to see the photo completed.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 25, 2014, 03:39:48 PM
Hi Massimo,
thanks for motivating comment :D

Here are some corrections & tuning on 22 plus added 31.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140825_jakdevet_02_zps6f270499.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


PS: Massimo, could you post, please, also your work, may be also those from mig3 page in this "colorized photos gallery"? It would be nice and useful to have all color pictures on one place.


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: learstang on August 25, 2014, 06:18:02 PM
Looks good, 66misos! I look forward to the finished picture.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 26, 2014, 07:21:35 AM
Hi,
all planes finished:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140826_jakdevet_03_zps139031ef.jpg)

Background is the next.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 26, 2014, 08:06:58 AM
Hi Misos, looks very good. I'm waiting to see the background.
I've put my colorized photos on the board, as you've suggested.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 26, 2014, 11:27:08 AM
Hi Massimo,
I would like to ask you for opinion before I start with background. I have read that those planes fly over Sevastopol and it seems to me that there is Black See visible on the original photo. So I took similar picture of Sevastopol area from Google Earth:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/Sevastopol03_zps3b529679.jpg)
I know it is from the present plus there is different perspective, but it shows coast line and character of the countryside.

Regards,
    66misos


PS: I saw all those your added colorized photos. Very nice. Didn't you consider to put also type of the plane (LaGG-3, MiG-3 etc.) to the each topic headline? Could be easier when looking for refference.


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 26, 2014, 02:30:51 PM
Hi Misos,
this is a good image, but the colors of the colorized photos will need to be progressively faded ito light blue to take into account of the variability of the thickness of the light-diffusing air from a nearly horizontal perspective.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 26, 2014, 03:18:04 PM
Hi Massimo,
here is the first attempt for background:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140826_jakdevet_04_zps34428849.jpg)
I feel it still not OK, but the first step is done.
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 26, 2014, 03:43:19 PM
Hi Misos,
good as first attempt. You've still to make a blue gradient on the ground to the horizon, and shadows of the clouds on the ground should appear dark blue-grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 26, 2014, 06:03:34 PM
Hi,
the blue gradient on the ground to the horizon added as well as a bit blue-grey hue to shadows of the clouds on the ground. Plus overall change of the color to give background a bit darker blue-grey look, more similar to the Google Earth photo.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140827_jakdevet_06_zpsf801b94f.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos

EDIT: 27-Aug-2014


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: learstang on August 26, 2014, 06:24:34 PM
You both should do a book of colourised VVS photographs!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 26, 2014, 06:57:26 PM
Hi Misos, very good. Now you can work on the trasparent parts, one should see somewhat of the back color, somewhat of the color that reflects and, if it is not perfectly trasparent, somewhat of the color of the glazing itself.
Hi Jason,
it's not a bad idea.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Spitfire on August 26, 2014, 08:31:17 PM
This is fantastic stuff, I don't understand how you are doing it but it's great.

Cheers

Dennis


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 27, 2014, 10:46:53 AM
Hi,
thank you all for comments ;D

Massimo, I reworked cockpit of "22" and a bit improved blending two far planes with background, see picture above (Reply #15).
Hope it could be considered as finished.

Jason, such book could be quite interesting, I already had that idea. However, I am not sure about copyright of the source bw photos. Here everything is just hobby, free of charge, but the book is for business.

Regards,
   66misos





Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: learstang on August 27, 2014, 07:41:12 PM
66misos, copyrights are certainly an issue with a book, but some of these photographs may be public domain if they're older than 70 years. At least that's my reading of Russian copyright law - no doubt there are others on this site (Konstantin?) who could shed more light on that.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 28, 2014, 06:37:25 AM
Hi,
there was interesting and long discussion about Copyrights on images at ARC forum http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=132676 (http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=132676)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: xan on August 28, 2014, 10:28:34 AM
Fantastic work!
congratulations Misos!
Xan


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: learstang on August 28, 2014, 06:05:54 PM
Yes; very nice work indeed!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 30, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
Thanks all for comments  ;D
(EDIT 16-Sep-2014)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Yak-9/140916_Yak-9D_Grib_EN02A5_zps4ed0fc30.jpg)

KL wrote at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1864.msg15328#msg15328  (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1864.msg15328#msg15328)
Hi Misos,
very good!  The only thing that I don't understand is the meaning of the phrase "modified NKAP scheme" - what is modified there?  It looks standard to me...  what would be in your opinion, more standard scheme?  consider that NKAP instruction included poorly printed, post stamp size, simplified sketch...

It's about the basic question:  were there standards or not?  Pilawskii and many others say that there were no standards (NKAP supposedly issued "recommendations" only, planes were painted with whatever was available, etc.).  I am one of those who believe that there were standards, orders, that planes were painted with aviation paints only etc.  So, I see that word "modified" as indication that the plane wasn't painted according to the NKAP directive.

BTW, plural of aircraft is aircraft - not aircrafts (no "s" at the end)...  :)

KL

This is NKAP 1943 Template:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-fighters/tem-fighters1943.jpg)

and its application:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/yak3/bourgetupperview.jpg)

But Grib's no. 22 looks different in following areas:
- left wing looks similar to template, but with sharp edges, while rest of the camo has soft edges,
- right wing looks different, although it could be matter of reflections, shadows and weathered areas,
- AMT-11 area on the left fuselage between cockpit and engine does not continue to the left wing like on template, but it ends on the left wing root and whole wing root is  AMT-12, like the 3rd Yak from the bottom in the right row on the photo above and also on this photo:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/yak179/Yak-9/yak9-930.jpg)

Probably "modified NKAP" is not right word, may be "not fully in line with NKAP template".
Plus thanks for "-s", I will correct it.

Best regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 30, 2014, 07:02:39 PM
Hi,
I posted this picture also at airforce.ru http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm) with interesting comments from their member "St". Here I summarized them.
- In this serie Yak-9DD had "warm" grey colors (a bit of brown need to be added),
- Which greay, AMT-11 and/or AMT-12? This codes were used only in instructions. On the stock they had ...what they had. Show me color chart and I will show, what Mr. Grib, HSS showed to me,

I sent him link to VVS paint chart at mig3 pages and additional general color chart (see bellow) with following result:
- "Выкладки" is someone's "research" but it is not rule.

- for overall camouflage use 8765D/8775D (AMT-11?):
(http://www.materials-world.com/paint-colors/duron/images/Duron-Colors-36.gif)

- for blotches use ironM.2134-30 (AMT-12?):
(http://www.trishasdesignstudio.com/benjamin-moore-color/Benjamin-Moore-Color-27.gif)

- Bottom: juicy dark blue - blue 550B-5. (AMT-7):
(http://www.materials-world.com/paint-colors/behr/behr-colorsmart/images/behr-colorsmart-28.gif)

On b/w photos such colors look bright.

Are these "warm" grey colors applicable only for Grib's Yak-9D "22"? You need to find serial numbers. 60 aircraft from the Yak-9DD serie had such coloring.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 30, 2014, 11:35:09 PM
Hi Misos, interesting indeed, thank you for sharing.
The replacement seems to be limited to AMT-11, replaced with a brownish shade.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: KL on August 31, 2014, 12:50:02 AM
Hi Misos,
forum member "St" is A. Stankov, author of "Поршневые истребители ?Як? периода 1941-1945 гг. в полках ВВС" book:

(http://mirknig.com/uploads/posts/2010-12/thumbs/1292663636_stankov-a.v.-porshnevye-istrebiteli-yak-perioda-1941-1945gg.-v-polkah-vvs.-1999.jpg)

This book and Stankov's post at VIF are somewhat controversial.  Book contains many previously unpublished photos from private collections, unique information collected from veterans and interesting information from memoirs.  But, Stankov's book and his postings at VIF also reveal that he gives priority to this kind of information over the information that can be found in official documents.  Or, that he doesn't care what is in archives and what other researchers say...  Result of this is that Stankov isn't respected by other VIF members (for a good reason!).

His book and postings are also full of biased and unfunded conclusions (like "Soviet pilots and planes were the best in the world", "VVS pilots were better trained that LW pilots" etc.).  Many profiles in his books can be considered as wrong or misinterpreted - there are dozens of planes in fictional "Green-Dark Green" camouflage scheme, dozens of planes in one tone colouring that were supposedly operative during GPW (one tone colouring was typical for prewar and postwar periods only!) etc.  IMHO, Pilawskii heavily relied on Stankov's book!

Regardless, Stankov is an expert and should be praised for information he had collected from the veterans.  One should know where are the limits of this type of information.

The replacement seems to be limited to AMT-11, replaced with a brownish shade.

IMHO (or according to my monitor), all 3 colours are within the standards...

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: KL on August 31, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
Hi Misos,

But Grib's no. 22 looks different in following areas:
- left wing looks similar to template, but with sharp edges, while rest of the camo has soft edges,
- right wing looks different, although it could be matter of reflections, shadows and weathered areas,
- AMT-11 area on the left fuselage between cockpit and engine does not continue to the left wing like on template, but it ends on the left wing root and whole wing root is  AMT-12
Probably "modified NKAP" is not right word, may be "not fully in line with NKAP template".

When I compare NKAP template and the photo - I see similarities and I conclude that the plane has been camouflaged in compliance with NKAP scheme.

When you compare NKAP template and the photo - you see differences.  You are looking for deviations from NKAP scheme...


-edges of camouflage fields (sharp or soft) were not defined in 1943 NKAP scheme.  On sketches they look sharp, but in factories planes were sprayed.  Also, consider that the wings may have been painted before the final assembly.
-left wing root is poorly visible on the photo - AMT-11 area may actually look like the one on NKAP template (depends how you see the photo)

Anyway, I don't see any need for comments on NKAP scheme (modified, not fully in line etc.)

Cheers,
KL 


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on August 31, 2014, 10:28:57 AM
Hi KL,
I agree with you that camo scheme on "22" is very similar to NKAP 1934 template. Even if I agree regarding wings, there is significant difference - AMT-11 area on the left fuselage between cockpit and engine does not continue to the left wing like on template, but it ends on the left wing root and whole wing root is  AMT-12. This part is completely different from NKAP template.

I will be without computer next cca 2 weeks, only smartphone. I will update picture ("warm" grey) then.

Btw, is that "St" from AIF former "Alex"?

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: KL on September 06, 2014, 07:56:22 PM

I will be without computer next cca 2 weeks, only smartphone. I will update picture ("warm" grey) then.


Have you seen VIF post at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/162154.htm  - illustrates precisely what I said about "St"....
Better don't waste your time with extremely suspicious  information...

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Yak-9D White "22" - 3rd Squadron 6th Air GvIAP Black Sea Fleet
Post by: 66misos on September 07, 2014, 05:13:51 PM
Hi KL,
Thanks for link, you saved me a lot of time. :) I read post at that link plus some others. There seems to be quite a "hot atmosphere" at AIF around "St".  :o
Regards,
   66misos