Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Monoplane fighters of '20s and '30s => Topic started by: xan on September 03, 2014, 03:43:22 PM



Title: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: xan on September 03, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
Hi,
I'm loocking for an information...
Was the I-16 filet (karman) made of wood or metal ?

in this pic , the I-180 prototype had a wood fillet

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/03//14090303480614768312497271.jpg)

but in those one, it seems metal behind the fillet paint...

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/03//14090303480814768312497273.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2014/09/03//14090303480814768312497272.jpg)

thank you

Xan


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: KL on September 03, 2014, 05:07:26 PM

I'm loocking for an information...
Was the I-16 filet (karman) made of wood or metal ?

it was made of wood.  :)
KL


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: learstang on September 04, 2014, 12:27:00 AM
Konstantin, so should those scuff marks be yellow?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2014, 05:47:36 AM
Hi,
here was discussion about primer color under the Camo color, although about Blatter Lavochkin http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1605.msg14198 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1605.msg14198)
Regards,
66misos


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: xan on September 04, 2014, 10:46:42 AM
Thanks misos,
so Konstantin, the scuff marks had to be silver because of the silver underlaying AII (UV protection)?
Am I wright?

Xan


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: 66misos on September 04, 2014, 12:10:22 PM
Hi Xan,
My understsnding of that discussion was that between metal and camouflage color was yellow (greenish or  brownish) primer, while between wood/fabric and camo color was yellow nitroputty and during some period also silver UV protection. Anyhow, scratches on the captured Mig-3 are yellow on color photos and here is I-16:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/i-16color.jpg)


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: KL on September 04, 2014, 08:19:27 PM
... should those scuff marks be yellow?

... the scuff marks had to be silver because of the silver underlaying AII (UV protection)?

IMHO, scuff marks were fabric (canvas/beige) colour and yellow.  I-16 fuselage and wing fairing wooden surface were protected from moisture by a layer of fabric.  Fabric was glued to wood with yellow nitro putty, then it was doped with several layers of clear nitro varnish (AI-N), leveled with more yellow puty and finally painted with 2 layers of pigmented AII nitro varnish ("AII Protective Green", "AII Light gray" or "AII Light Blue").  So, if green paint was rubbed off, there would be a layer of (quite strong!) fabric first, and then under the fabric there would be a layer of yellow putty.

Silver "AII Al" as UV protection was proposed by VIAM in 1940. Orlov mentions 1940 as the year when it was introduced, but this is not confirmed by museum exhibits (Vesivehmaa MiG-3 made in 1941 before the GPW, or Bourget I-153 wing made in 1940). So, silver UV protection layer is almost certainly impossible on 1937-38 I-16s...

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 05, 2014, 02:56:36 PM
Hi,
for what I know, the inside of the fabric of the ailerons of MiG-3 is painted silver. I suppose that the note about the absence of the silver layer has to be intended 'between the putty and the external AII paint'.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: KL on September 05, 2014, 06:06:06 PM
I-16 manual posted at http://www.airpages.ru/po/i16_01.shtml does mention AII Al.

Наружную поверхность фюзеляжа и ферринга один раз покрывают нитроклеем AK-20 и шпатлюют шпатлевкой АШ-22, после чего оклеивают тканью ? маркизет суровый № 164 на нитроклее AK-20; затем шпатлюют шпатлевкой АШ-22 и покрывают алюминиевым нитролаком АПА.

The outside surface of the fuselage and the wing fairing (Ferring) is covered once with nitroputty AK-20 and filled with ASh-22 filler and after that fabric (Markizet No 164) is glued on with nitroputty AK-20; then filled with ASh-22 filler and coated with aluminum nitrovarnish APA.

This manual was published in 1941 and it describes I-16s with M-63 engines: last I-16s Type 24/28 and I-16 Type 29.  These planes were made in 1940 and early 1941.

I-16 on the colour photo is probably I-16 Type 28 made in 1940 (opening for radio, starboard entry door, wing cannons) so it is most likely painted as described in the manual, including silver AII AL:

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/i-16color.jpg)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: the I-16 fillet (karman)
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 06, 2014, 07:47:25 AM
Interesting. It shows difference between the shades of green of the metallic fillet of the stabilizer and the darker wooden part treated this way, as on MiG-3s  and Yak 2/4 built in the same period. But, as we know, the MiG-3 shows yellow where the paint is chipped.
Long time ago, a correspondant of mine wrote about the memories of a Soviet pilot shot down in the war against Japaneses, and he was surprised to see that the inner part of the broken fuselage of his I-16 was white (silver?).
Regards
Massimo