Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
I started new picture - well known Il-2m3 Mstitel (Avenger). Photo is quite noisy, so we will see.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140915_Ildva-mstitel_00_zps0588ea30.jpg)

Massimo, I hope you do not mind if I use you profile from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m3/il2m3-camo.htm (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m3/il2m3-camo.htm) as a refference:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m3/il2m3-bp-fl-al-3view-prof-msitel.jpg)
Regards,
    66misos

Excellent choice, 66misos! For me, the Il-2 is always an excellent choice.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Misos,
of course you can.
This is a beautiful photo, I would just know why all the planes on the background are so dark and with few markings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is a little progress today - the first plane is roughly done:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140925_Ildva-mstitel_02_zpsa517f8f3.jpg)
Comments are welcome.

regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
looks good. I think to remember that there was a grey blotch on the rear part of the wing, but I can't see it on your drawing.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I slightly reworked that picture, added dark grey blotch on the wing, wing gun and replaced picture above. It is more-less done.
Next step are additional planes.
Regards,
   66misos

Very nice, 66misos - I look forward to the finished picture!

Regards,

Jason

Gray blotch on the wing should be actually light gray.  Wing is more or less horizontal and in this photo it reflects more light than any other surface of the plane.  All colours on the wing should be lighter or "bleached" (more transparent) than those on Massimo's profile.  There may be some glare on the wing too (probably closer to wing tip)
Regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
these colorization works are usually made preserving the darkness of the original bw photo, acting only on hue and saturation. If one starts to alter the darkness of a surface, it is no longer a colorization, but a painting. So, if glare doesn't appear on the bw photo, adding it would be arbitrary.
Of course, it can be that lights and shadows can have different hues (for example, shadows on the lower surface could receive yellowish or greenish light from the ground, shadows on uppersurfaces can receive more blue light from the sky, gloss surfaces can reflect the blue-grey of the sky etc).
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thick black line which represents dark gray blotch, doesn't exist on the original b/w photo.  So, it's already arbitrary painting.
Regards,
KL 

Hi Konstantin, hi Misos
I suggest to paint it grey without changing the darkness of the original photo.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I made that grey blotch lighter. If adjusting only hue/saturation, it will disappear in the green, it is very thin due to perspective, so I added also bit of dark.
I started additional plane. This one is more painting than colorizing, because the original is very dark, almost black. And I want to show camouflage colors at least partially, so I used a bit if Artistic licence.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140926_Ildva-mstitel_03_zpsdf1a60d3.jpg)

Hi Misos,
I see. I'm still wondering why those planes are so dark and uniform.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
your colorized photo is already OK, but my monitor displays your AMT-1 somewhat too brownish or too pinkish and possibly too light if compared with AMT-4.  IMHO, there is some room for improvement!  ;)
I mean, it would be interesting to experiment a little and use for AMT-1 a color which is somewhere between those two GOST chips kindly supplied by Averin:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/averin/AMT-1av.jpg)

Since the time when Massimo posted these chips, I got the information about the difference between the left and right chip:  left chip is glossy and the right chip is flat (matte).  So, for AMT-1 the right pair of chips should be more relevant... the problem with the lower right chip is that more than half of the surface is covered in light bluish-gray reflection (ignore those areas).

I hope it's not too late or too hard to do.  :)

Regards,
KL
 

Massimo, I am confused too. I have read that this image is retouched photo-montage.

This is from http://waralbum.ru/5912/ (http://waralbum.ru/5912/):
"IL- 2 with board number 25 "Avenger" was built with funds of the chairman of the collective farm "Stalin" in Avdalar Kotayk region of the Armenian SSR Grigor Ayrapetovich Tevosyan, whose two brothers died in the war. He donated 100 000 rubles for the acquisition of military aircraft.
Nelson G. Stepanyan ( 1913-1944 ), Hero of the Soviet Union and also an Armenian flew in this IL-2. During the War Stepanian has made 239 successful sorties, personally and in group destroyed 53 the enemy vessels. He was killed in action 14 December 1944 near the city of Liepaja in Latvia. Posthumously in March 6, 1945 re-awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
Time of the photo: 1944"

This is from very interesting discussion about this plane and whole photo at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=705.msg13513#msg13513 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=705.msg13513#msg13513)
"...this was 567 shap Il-2.  For its distinguished role played during the Berlin operation, regiment was actually named 567th "Berlin" ground attack air regiment.
567th shap was part of  198th shad, which was part of the 6th shak.
6th shak was part of the 16th VA (16th Air Army)... Mstitel?s pilot was squadron commander V. Bondarenko... Berlin, May 1, 1945."
and there is a profile of plane with the different grey and green fields on the rear fuselage and tail:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/mstitel/il2m3-bp-fl-al-3view-prof-msitel.jpg)


KL, there is never too late to improve picture.;) I have every color or detail in the separate layer, so it is quite easy to "address" that color/detail. More difficult is to get right hue/saturation on the monitor.
Do you have, please, such refference chips also for green AMT-4?

So let's play with AMT-1 and/or A-21m. I made a mix of all 4 samples in PS and tried to apply to Il-2:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140927_Ildva-mstitel_03_zps4afe46c8.jpg)

Thanx for comments and help.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, hi Massimo,
after so many photos and so mach reliable (and unreliable!) information analyzed I thought that things are clear with Il-2 no 25 "Mstitiel"...   ???

There is no doubt that the photo was taken by Mark Redkin during the battle for Berlin in 1945.  There is no doubt that this Il-2 belonged to 567 shap and that its pilot was Lt. V. Bondarenko.

If someone posts somewhere on the web that this Il-2 was actually Stepanyan's "Mstitel" it doesn't mean that the information is true.  :P
Just read discussion bellow the posted photo at waralbum  http://waralbum.ru/5912/:
kind of "non-sofisticated'.......  better read again discussion about Stepanyan's Il-2s and discussion about the "Mstitel" on this forum.


What is so strange about this?  Didn't we have recently a Yak-9D without a number?
yes, Redkin (or censors) did retouch some of his published photos and he did make numerous photo-montages.  In case of a retouch or a montage it was always quite obvious what have happened.  This photo clearly hasn't been altered and it shows Il-2 with no numbers:

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/201207396312.d69z1qu8si88o0ock4gk844wg.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

while this one is suspicious...

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/comment-image/43604.jpg)

Regards,
KL

Interesting, IMHO it looks better than before!
BTW, how do you mix colors in PS?  can you post some of possible colors that are between the chips?  and why did you mix all 4chips? transitions between the right pair make more sense for AMT-1.
Regards,
KL

Hi Konstantin and Misos,
I've tried to darken the image of the white triangle on the tail
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/567shapberlin.jpg)
It seems that there could have been a very low contrasting number 5 or 6, or a deleted number 5.  Could also be a joke due to noise and grains, of course, or to irregular white brush strokes.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo,
I do not see there any number ???

KL,
I will post that mixed sample latter, I am without computer now/today.

When looking at all those photos I start to think that planes without board numbers do not have white tip at front of wheel gondole as Mstitel has. I have also doubts about red propeller spiners.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos, I can see too many ones overposed... probably a joke due to brush painting of white. The most visible is somewhat similar to the upper bar and the right side of a 5. Perhaps there was some number before painting the white triangle.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
the shadow on the spinner is sharp, and this suggests a gloss paint while the camouflage is very matt. Lacking of sure informations, I am for red spinners.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is AMT-1 chip
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140929_AMT-1chip_zps7ef69c0c.jpg)

made as a mix of:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/averin/AMT-1av.jpg)
Most weight is put on 935 left and the 924 right less. IMHO that color is "something in between".
However, after saving as JPG it slightly change hue.

This is enlarged photo with increased brightness:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/Untitled-1_zpsfdb39500.jpg)
Note homogenious grey area between star and cockpit, even where AMT-1 would be expected according to Mstitel. Such homogenious area is not anywhere elese on that plane. It looks like retouch.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
I see another similar area on the landing gear nacelle and rockets. I've seen such things on photos scanned as greyscale, so I prefer always to scan in RGB even bw photos. Could also be sign of retouched image, of course, but I'm not sure of this.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
all planes are more-less finished. I continue with background. It is still far from satisfaction but at least it starts to have "atmosphere".
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140930_Ildva-mstitel_04_zps307ad87e.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos

Very nice, 66misos! I look forward to the finished article!

Regards,

Jason

Hi Misos,

Your AMT-1 looks good - it actually isn't far from Albom Nakrasok AMT-1 chip.  It is interesting to compare it with AKAN's AMT-1

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1382308876_rrr-1.jpg)

A suggestion:  can you try to level the entire photo?  IMHO, it will look more realistic if horizon is horizontal...  and you will also get rid of the blurred lower right corner (which is part of the "photo-montage") :)

Regards,
KL

PS  IMHO, your fields are way to colorful for eastern Germany in early spring.  There shouldn't be any red or yellow (autumn colors...).  Check fields east of Berlin on Google Maps:  only brownish gray and green.

Hi,
thank you for comment.  :)
KL, interesting idea about leveling. I checked original/source photo at waralbum.ru. There is not enough background on right side, it will require another montage - to add missing background to the right and blend it with existing background.
Background should represent east Germany country during April/ May. I have to admit it is too colorful now. It is my approach. Firstly I do "anything" to get overall impression or feeling. And then, after some time looking at it and after comments I try to tune it. Comments are very appreciate, because sometime I see on the picture what I want, not what is really there.
Regards,
     66misos

maybe you could borrow some background from

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381604298_il2m3-25b.jpg)

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/mstitel_4411.9u7ytm6il5gck4so48cck04os.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

regards,
KL

Hi,
I wonder if the 'tall' photo is an elaboration itself. The clouds or smoke looks in the right position to hide the merging of two different images.
Regards
Massimo

The bottom photograph is certainly two different photographs. The countryside merges very suddenly into the heart of Berlin, with the clouds conveniently hiding the seam.

Regards,

Jason

The bottom photograph is a photo montage made by Redkin in early 1970es.  Few Years ago I posted somewhere exact year and in what magazine it was published.  It is clear that the two photos are taken at different angle to horizon and from different altitudes.
regards,
KL

Hi,
yes, it is quite obvious.
Misos, a way to obtain some ground is to copy it from the photo itself. The new part can be slightly scaled and deformed to obtain a convincing perspective. Ground from a different image would be difficult to merge as darkness, contrast and grain.
Anyhow the present colors of tye ground don't seem convincing to my eye, you could have a look to a modern color photo.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here I tried to to level all planes and completely replace background:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141001_Ildva-mstitel_04_zps5764cd63.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos

That looks rather convincing to me.

Regards,

Jason

Hi, looks very good. Is the background from a color photo, or colorized?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
thank you :)
Massimo, this background is modern color photo, not colorized. But all kinds of PS tools applied - filters, noise, contrast, several differently adjusted layers etc.
However, this version looks "too quiet". So I will make also another, more "dynamic" version with destroyed Berlin in background.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
so here is another version, with Berlin as a background:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141002_Ildva-mstitel_06Berlin_zpsb8982c12.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
this image is interesting. Anyway, observing the shadows on the ground, the planes should be in full light from the right and have some sharp shadows. An uniformly lightened background from a cloudy day would avoid this problem.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I was not able to find better image of Berlin - in big enough resolution and showing horizon. So until I find better photo I at least added sharp shadow under the horizontal stabilized and main wheel gondola on the Mstitel and the next plane - sun light is going from top right. And I replaced photo above.
Thank you.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
when you start changing backgrounds, the possibilities are endless.  8)

Few suggestions for various backgrounds:

1.  You may combine famous Redkin's Il-2 photo with even more famous V.A. Tyomin's photo "Знамя Победы над Рейхстагом"....   

(http://www.foto-video.ru/upload/iblock/22a/1.jpg)
from http://www.foto-video.ru/art/subject/1876/

This montage will become popular in Russia for sure!  Who knows, maybe a poster for next Victory Parade?

2.  You may change Il-2 colours to "AII Brown" and "AII Dark Brown" and then change background to show Giza pyramids.  All this to prove how effective was "South Front" camouflage scheme!!!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Giza-pyramids.JPG/800px-Giza-pyramids.JPG)

3.  Eiffel Tower or Manhattan would be interesting background too.  You may do this just for fun!

4.  You may also complete photo with its original background (from Redkin's photo).  Check Google Maps - turn on satelite view and IMHO it will show you adequate colours for Berlin surroundings in early spring (dark green forests, grayish freshly plowed fields and light green fields with some crops).  IMHO, it will show how effective was NKAP's 3-colour scheme....  ;)

Cheers,
KL     

Hi Misos,
the shadow you've added on the gondola is much too rearwards. The wing is attached just behind the white painted part.
Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,
thanks for inspiration. ;D
The photo with Reichstag would be really nice but Mstitel would hide most part of that building. Or planes would have to be much smaller. However, I focus on planes, not on environment, at least now. So I would keep this picture as my "iterpretation" of Mstitel over Berlin.
I never heard about "AII Brown" and "AII Dark Brown" in 1945. Is that joke or real? :o

Massimo,
I moved that shadow a bit to the left and added more depth to the horizon, this could be the final version:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141002_Ildva-mstitel_07Berlin_zps8cd76899.jpg)

Next Il-2 already waiting. ;)
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,

more I think about it, "Mstitel" over Reichstag looks the better...  :)

You may add sky and clouds over Reichstag photo (same as on your final Berlin streets Photo) and place Il-2s somewhat higher, on top of horizon and the sky.  For Reichstag colors you may use these photos made in summer 1945

(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/39/b7/f0/39b7f030a6f40bb02e8e1ecea7ab3a20.jpg)

(http://www.pitria.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Color-Photographs-of-Berlin-in-Summer-of-1945-2.jpg)

(http://www.pitria.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Color-Photographs-of-Berlin-in-Summer-of-1945-1.jpg)

Of course, I would level all the planes - it looks better.

Cheers,
KL  

Hi KL,
thank you for inspirational photos and ideas. I tried to compose Reichstag photo with those Il-2 planes. Unfortunately, there is too little space above building, even if I move individual planes to the different positions (then perspective does not work). If background is decreased to get space above building, then significant parts of the background are missing on the both sides. May be different shots of building and planes would work better.
Anyhow, thanks again.
Regards,
    6misos

Hi,
another interesting photo from scalemodels.ru:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/10/1412711217_198-rrr-16-rr-1-6-rrs-rrr-srrssrr-rrsrrjorr-srsr-rjor-rrrrjor.jpg)
with the comment:
198 shad, 16 VA, Il-2 above the center of Berlin, photo from CDAiK

What is that dark (brown/rusty) "something" in front of the building, between German cannon wheels and US Jeep?
(http://www.pitria.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Color-Photographs-of-Berlin-in-Summer-of-1945-2.jpg)
It looks like British WWI tank ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
Few years ago I posted this photo either on this forum or maybe on now non-existing Pilawskii's forum.  ???  There is also a photo-montage with "Mstitel" flying in front of the same building.

(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/periskop_ru/History/Fi_berlin.jpg)

The building still exists, it's known as Ullsteinhaus and it is located in Tempelhof (not center of Berlin).

(http://www.unsere.de/ullsteinhaus_3933inidia200908.JPG)

Cheers,
KL   

Hi KL,
photos with Il-2 Mstitel remind me children game "Find 10 differences". Compare:

Photo #1:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381604298_il2m3-25b.jpg)
- Mstitel has white dot bellow arrow/cockpit,
- Mstitel has white tip on the front of the main wheel gondola, while other planes do not have,
- all planes have white circle/dot on the tail, right from the star,
- all planes have antenna mast on the cockpit

Photo #2:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/140915_Ildva-mstitel_00_zps0588ea30.jpg)
- white dot on the Mstitel bellow arrow/cockpit is missing,
- Mstitel has white tip on the front of the main wheel gondola, while other planes do not have,
- all planes have white circle/dot on the tail, right from the star,
- all planes have antenna mast on the cockpit

Photo #3:
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/periskop_ru/History/Fi_berlin.jpg)
- white dot on the Mstitel bellow arrow/cockpit is missing - Mstitel itself is added here via retouch, see its propeller,
- all planes seems to have white tip on the front of the main wheel gondola,
- all planes have white circle/dot on the tail, right from the star,
- antenna mast on the cockpit is missing on all planes,

Photo #4:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/10/1412711217_198-rrr-16-rr-1-6-rrs-rrr-srrssrr-rrsrrjorr-srsr-rjor-rrrrjor.jpg)
- Mstitel is missing,
- Il-2 on the foreground does not have white circle on the tail, right from the star (retouched),
- antenna mast on the cockpit is missing on all planes,

Well, trust them...  :-[

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
you should have included other photos from the series in your "Find 10 differences" game for a more complete conclusions.  Still the results of your post are interesting:

1.  the photo-correspondent (Redkin) routinely retouched his photos - most of the published photos are retouched!
2.  there was no consistency - various elements were deleted or added (including entire planes)

Both are easy to explain (or one helps to explain the other):  Redkin was a professional art photographer and he was taking photos for propaganda purposes (he was TASS photo-correspondent).  Retouch was also done for aesthetic and propaganda purposes.  Consider this case:

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2014/10/1412711217_198-rrr-16-rr-1-6-rrs-rrr-srrssrr-rrsrrjorr-srsr-rjor-rrrrjor.jpg)

white dot was deleted to put accent on the red star, not to conceal regimental markings!  This exercise proves that there was no official ban on publishing regimental and tactical markings - surprising considering Soviets' obsession with secrecy.

Regards,
KL