Sovietwarplanes

General Category => works in process => Topic started by: 66misos on October 14, 2014, 12:11:50 PM



Title: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 14, 2014, 12:11:50 PM
Hi,
I started another Il-2. According to the waralbum.ru those planes are from Stalingrad area in 1943.

Here is source photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141014_Ildva_nazemi_vzor_zps55fe2b82.jpg)

Here is Massimo's profile of "15" from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/il2m-late1943.htm (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/il2m-late1943.htm):
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/il2m-bp-fl-al-3view-prof-obliqueband15.jpg)

Again, all comments and advices are more than welcome.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 15, 2014, 09:48:16 PM
No regiment or any other information available? ???

with red stars outlined in white and red and 3-colour camouflage these Il-2s are at least half a year late for Stalingrad... ???

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 15, 2014, 10:37:10 PM
Hi KL,
there is no info about regiment neither at Massimo's Mig3 pages, nor at waralbum.ru.
I agree that description from http://waralbum.ru/143989/ (http://waralbum.ru/143989/) is suspicious - "Soviet Il-2 Sturmoviks are starting for combat mission in Stalingrad area. Date of photo: January 1943, author: Georgy Zelma."
White outlined stars came on summer/autumn 1943.
However, ground crew wears gloves on that photo...
What is the ground? It looks like concrete, but I has doubts. Frozen surface? ??? Note that fissure on the ground.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 15, 2014, 11:31:45 PM
author's name helps!
G. Zelma did document Stalingrad battle.  Although these Il-2s have to be photographed later... ???

two more photos attributed to Georgy Zelma:

(http://sfw.so/uploads/posts/2009-05/1241784288_3.jpg)

(http://sfw.so/uploads/posts/2009-05/1241784287_2.jpg)

Supposedly both photos were taken in December 1942, during Stalingrad battle.  http://sfw.so/index.php?newsid=1148868978
second image in better resolution

(http://cs303101.vk.me/v303101287/46e/71N60yzfDxo.jpg)

HTH,
KL
 


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 16, 2014, 02:20:44 PM
Hi KL,
thanks for nice photos. The Il-2 in the background of the second photo wears the same marking as the planes in the colorized photo.
Today I got info from airforce.ru forum:
"Это по времени никак не может быть Сталинград, поскольку на ближнем Иле направляющие РСов имеют обтекатели, а дальний Ил имеет длинную мачту антенны. И то и другое появилось в серии позже, чем зима 42/43.
Сейчас не могу найти ссылку на сайт, где утверждалось, что подобные ЭБО имели машины 10 шак (136 и 306 шад).
Там постилась вот такая картинка:"

Translated:
It cannot be Stalingrad in that time period, because on the closer Il-2 the guides of RSes have fairings and that distant Il-2 has a long antenna mast. Both features appeared in the series later than the winter 42/43.
Now I cannot find a link to a website, which stated that aircraft from 10shak (136 and 306 shad) had similar fast recognition marking.
There was posted this picture:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Ar/(141016141032)_(070614090135)_Il-2_10_ShAK_Markings.jpeg)

I am not sure about Il-2 technical features terminology. Jason, could you help, please?
Anyhow, according to the picture above the colorized planes should belong to the 995 shap of 306 shad (white propeller spinner), probably winter 1944/45. ???
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 16, 2014, 07:56:40 PM
Hi Misos,
check this link for G.Zelma's photos (a lot of planes, and even more Socialist Realism!!!):
http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/search/?startfrom=0&orderby=earliest&q=%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%B0&field=author

It is possible from this link to (roughly) trace Zelma's assignments during the GPW:

- Winter 1941/42 - Kola peninsula, Tihvin Front
- Autumn 1942-winter 1942/43 - Stalingrad
- Spring 1944 - liberation of Odessa
- February 1945 - end of Budapest Operation ("liberation")

We can also (roughly) date Il-2 photos made by Zelma:

(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_2381.jpg)
This one was probably taken during the Stalingrad battle (Jan-Feb 1943).  The plane is in white winter camouflage and the red star doesn't have any outlines

(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_601580.jpg)
(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_601581.jpg)
These two photos are most likely made during the Budapest operation in February 1945.  Planes are in standard 3-color camouflage and we know that white winter camouflage hasn't been applied during the 1944/45 winter.

What is the ground? It looks like concrete, but I has doubts. Frozen surface? ??? Note that fissure on the ground.

It's most likely a captured Hungarian airfield, so concrete can't be excluded.  And definitely frozen and flat...  You should be familiar with the scenery and the weather in Hungary.   :)

HTH,
KL  




Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 16, 2014, 08:41:13 PM
Hi Misos,
Another clue that the photo was taken in Hungary:

989-й штурмовой Черновицкий ордена Кутузова авиационный полк
...
В феврале 1945 г. за отличия в Будапештской операции полк награжден орденом Кутузова III степени.


Quote
989 th Attack Chernivtsi Order of Kutuzov Aviation Regiment
...
In February 1945, for the distinction in the Budapest operation regiment was awarded the Order of Kutuzov III degree.


Il-2s on your photo really have white or red spinners.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2014, 04:51:51 PM
Hi,
all aircraft are there:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141017_Ildva_nazemi_03_zpsad29de37.jpg)
Let's play with frozen ground and final details now.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 17, 2014, 06:04:51 PM
Hi Misos,
No "15" and plane behind it have either white or red spinner (there were no black-and white spinners).  IMHO, red is more probable - like on the following photo:

(http://cs303101.vk.me/v303101287/46e/71N60yzfDxo.jpg)

the closer plane has red spinner, plane behind it has white spinner.

Regards,
KL



Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 17, 2014, 09:03:41 PM
Hi KL,
you are probably right with no."15" white spinner with the red band, not black one. I originally made it according to Massimo's profile, but after all that photos posted in the meantime I have doubts about black band.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 18, 2014, 12:16:02 AM
Hi Misos,
most likely no spinner bands on those Il-2s.  Spinners were coloured to provide fast recognition, not for decorative purposes.  IMHO, solid colour (as suggested by scheme from AIF) is more probable.
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: Ohotnyik on October 20, 2014, 08:48:21 PM
Hello Konstantin,
There is the Hungarian plane to East , South ; and South-East from Budapest in Hungary.There were several small field airports in this area. As I know these were not covered by concrete. Only the Ferihegy airport was covered by concrete but this is 15 km from the centrum of Budapest . The authorised representative of the Red Army Mikl?s Steimetz?s car run to a mine neraby of this airport on the 29th of December 1944.
See below the list which and when were occupied the airports in Budapest and nearby Budapest:
24.Dec. 1944. Buda?rs
27.Dec. 1944. Ferihegy
30.Dec. M?ty?sf?ld
5.Jan. 1945. L?versenyt?r
5.Jan.1945. Csepel
The winter of 1944-45 was extremely snowy and cold. It was so cold that the Soviet reconnoitrers were able to pass ont he ice of the Danube and approach the Margaret Island. The wheather can change easily . Within 1-2 days we can have deep freese and thaw.If we consider the duration of the obsession of Budapest from 29th of Oct. 1944 till 13th of Feb. 1945 (108 days),than we could account all type of wheather circumstances.
There will be soon issued a book about the Hungarian activity of the Soviet fighters. The author is the guarantee that we will get the same quality and interesting work than we have already about the Hungarian activities of the 20 Bostons.
Istv?n


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 21, 2014, 06:54:49 AM
Hi,
this could be finished picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141022_IL-2_1945_vramikuA5_zps54b283a6.jpg)
Black band on the no. 15 spinner is changed to green - it is darker than white on bw photo.
Snow is a bit dirty from underlying ground.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 22, 2014, 12:58:03 AM
Hi Misos,
it looks somewhat unfinished...  Three details that you may want to change:

1.  I finally took a closer look at the original photo and I am quite sure that the Il-2 in the foreground is parked at the edge of concrete dispersal.  Its right wheel is actually on the concrete and its left wheel is on the grass.  The edge of the concrete runs parallel to lower edge of the photo and it is marked with white streak in front of the right wheel. No 15 is standing on the grass (darker than concrete in the foreground).  Concrete probably extends in front of two mechanics  so that the Il-2 parked in front of them (only its wheels are visible) is also standing on the concrete or something like a road.  This "road" actually starts just behind the shadow of the Il-2 which is in foreground.

Try to look at the photo from the distance; there are obvious lighter and darker patches of the ground. this could only indicate concrete and grass...

2.  Il-2 No 15 doesn't have white spinner; compare colour of its spinner with the colour of its tail markings and the spinner of the plane in the foreground.  Same with the plane behind 15 and the plane in far distance - their tail markings are bright white and their spinners are most likely red.  Plane in the foreground is the only plane with white spinner!

3.  RS rockets are probably olive green or brown-green.  Bombs were also painted in light green-gray or light blue-gray.

4.  My suggestion for the caption:  "Il-2s of the 989 shap and 995shap (10 ShAK) photographed during Budapest operation in Jan-Feb 1945.  Photo was taken by photo-correspodent G. Zelma probably at the Ferihegy Airport."

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 22, 2014, 01:51:00 AM
Hi Istv?n,

Thank you very much for the interesting information!  I was surprised that these two photos were taken in Hungary, but everything fits.
Considering that planes from two regiments can be identified on these two photos, this was probably a large airfield - Ferihegy Airport is quite possible.

Have you seen before these two photos were related to 1945 Budapest Operation?  Do you know of any other Il-2 photos from the winter/spring 1945 taken in Hungary?

regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 22, 2014, 09:18:37 AM
Hi all,
sorry for my absence from the forum, but I've some health problems now and I'm writing from another computer than my usual one.
The discussion is interesting, I'm happy that something more accurate has emerged, and I'll make some corrections to the drawing and captions when possible.
Misos, you image is a fine work. But now I suspect that the dark grey band on the back of the fuselage should be more likely green as from old Soviet templates, because Z.1, the likely builder of the plane, followed them in a rather accurate way.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 22, 2014, 11:58:05 AM
Hi,
thanks all for comments and correction/suggestions.

KL,
here I made a picture of the ground - changed contrast/brightness etc. to make surface details more evident:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141022_zem01_zpsa99956aa.jpg)
- brown color represents area where grass/mud under the show could be,
- red color marks surface defects on the possible concrete,
Anyhow, it is difficult to say what is covered by snow and what is exposed.

Here is quite evident full snow coverage:
(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_2381.jpg)

but what about this? Snow cleaned/removed from the concrete surface?
(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_601580.jpg)

I am not sure about red spinner on the no. "15" and that next one. Board number and "white" outline of the board star is quite dark, significantly darker than tail marking. I do not know whether it is play of the light or they are dirty. And it looks like that only a front part of the spinner is repainted on those planes, similar to this:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/whitetailfront.jpg)
The fact is that tail marking is very bright, looks like fresh painting. There could be originally white, now dirty/weathered spinners of "dark" white (i.e. no. "15") and freshly white repainted spinners (new plane and or spinner of originally different color, i.e. plane in the foreground).
Anyhow, red spinners would make color picture visually more attractive, but (front part of) spinners are brighter than red star on the fuselage.

"RS rockets are probably olive green or brown-green." Also at airforce.ru forum they suggest that rather than black they should be in "protective" (Zaschitny) paint color (AII-Z or 4BO or...?)
This is picture from airforce.ru:
(http://s2.postimg.org/rpsawntl5/image.jpg)

Your suggestion for the caption looks good. I will replace it.

...the dark grey band on the back of the fuselage should be more likely green as from old Soviet templates...
Massimo,
should the right side of no."15" be only brown-green?  ???
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 22, 2014, 01:07:23 PM
Hi Misos,
this looks likely (but I haven't my douments here), look at the standard template.
About the colors of tail and fuselage; it is often visibl that white parts of the mid/rear fuselage appear darker than the corresponding colors of the tail and nose, probably because of the exhaust stains. The white parts of the tail (and possibly the red parts of the nose) are free from this.
Stain could be the cause (or perhaps one of the causes) that make the brown band on the rear fuselage much brighter than the blotch on the left side aside of the gunner ; this can give the idea that they are different colors (green and brown) separed by a darker one (grey). This can be true on some planes, particularly those of z 18 that were irregular, but is less likely on one of z 1 as that of the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 22, 2014, 07:21:03 PM
Hi Misos,
read again post No 5 in this thread:  photo of the Il-2 on snow covered airfield is totally unrelated to two photos which were taken in Hungary in Jan-Feb 1945.   :)

(http://www.army.lv/photos/4845.jpg)
This Il-2 is an early two-seater with short antenna mast, it is in winter camouflage so it can't be winter 1944/45, its red stars are of the older type (before Sept 1943) without white and red outline - the photo was taken in winter 1942/43.  Zelma was at the Stalingrad front in winter 1942/43, so this photo was most likely taken at the Stalingrad front...



(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141022_zem01_zpsa99956aa.jpg)

That is exactly where it is concrete and where it is (dry) grass/dirt!  I would change dominant colour of the dirt to darker gray or gray-brown.  Dirt is clearly darker than concrete.
This may help for dirt colour:
(http://szovjet-katona.ucoz.hu/_ph/39/348268638.jpg)
(http://szovjet-katona.ucoz.hu/_ph/29/328182300.jpg)
(http://szovjet-katona.ucoz.hu/_ph/30/861853760.jpg)

Also consider that dirt in Jan-Feb is actually wet, so it is even darker...

Regards,
KL
  


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 23, 2014, 09:17:30 AM
Hi Misos, read again post No 5 in this thread:  photo of the Il-2 on snow covered airfield is totally unrelated to two photos which were taken in Hungary in Jan-Feb 1945.   :)...

Hi KL,
I know, I am fully aware of it. ;) I use it only to show that full snow coverage looks differently from what we can see on probably Budapest airport at this photo:
(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_601580.jpg)
It is more similar to:
(http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/25382/file-495991311-jpg/images/istock_-_airplane_on_snowy_runway_crisis_leadership-resized-600.jpg)
Snow removed/cleaned from concrete runway but kept on the grass.

However, this picture looks like different story (or view):
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141014_Ildva_nazemi_vzor_zps55fe2b82.jpg)
Concrete runway is clean, see the fissure on the ground.
I originally thought it is something like this - clean runway, snow does not fully cover surrounding grass area:
(http://www.airfields-freeman.com/CO/Airfields_CO_Denver_NE_htm_m1add01b6.jpg)

But the truth is that the area off the concrete is darker than runway, similar to brown paint on the aircraft. Probably something similar to this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Bern_Airport_Overview_in_Winter.jpg)
or
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/-cmvmZI2zmUY/UU2EDld7HGI/AAAAAAAATPI/xm2u4_13HkE/s1600/IMAG0532.jpg)
or
(http://www.airport-data.com/images/airports/small/030/030694.jpg)

So here is updated picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141023_Ildva_nazemi_03_zps2c83c3ec.jpg)
- RS rockets something between dirty steel and brown-green, with black fin/tail,
- all aircraft have right side only two-color - brown and green, according to the standard scheme.
- runway and surrounding ground is clean, frozen, with only a small remnants of snow.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 23, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
Hi Misos,
colour of dry grass/dirt is OK now.  I agree with you that there were only a few patches of snow; those snow patches are pure white on two original photos.  I think that the two photos were made on same day, probably within minutes.  IMHO, the only difference between them is viewpoint:  photographer was probably kneeling when he took the photo you are  colorizing, he took the other photo photo while standing (so that the perspective was different).

An answer to your AIF question: what colour is "zashchitni tsvet"?
"Zashchitni" is a generic name for a range of colours.  Most of these colours are green (only few exceptions which can be called brown...).  In the catalog below, numbers between 700 and 799 are all reserved for "Zashchitni"

(http://www.hpyar.ru/clients/catalog_yarli1.jpg)

If you colour RS rockets as chip No 736 you are probably closest to the real colour.  :)  I disagree with those who say that RS rockets may have been left unpainted, so you may skip unpainted steel.  For those who say that rockets were painted in any colour/paint that was available - colours and paints had purpose and meaning, there were prescribed substitutes etc. So, variations YES, but NOT "any colour" (imagine pink, purple or red rockets...)   ;D  

Couple of things more before you finish this project:

1.  Il-2 No 15 has red spinner.  Darker band is probably created by spinning propeller.  On the other photo red spinner has lighter band - most likely created by the spinning propeller too.
2.  There are some buildings on the horizon, just under No 15.  You should add them, because they disappeared on colorized photo...  ;)

Cheers,
KL    


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 24, 2014, 06:46:32 AM
Hi KL,
- all machines except one in the foreground have red spinners,
- building/trees on the horizont just under the no.15 are added:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2/141024_Ildva_nazemi_04_zpsd587ca61.jpg)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: KL on October 24, 2014, 09:33:33 AM
Hi Misos,
excellent, almost there!  Three small details:

1.  there is a building in haze under No 15, between the soldier and the plane in background
2.  rockets were olive green (black fins are OK)
3.  wing leading edge between landing gear nacelle and light brown AMT-1 field should be dark gray AMT-12 (check Massimo's drawings)

regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: 66misos on October 24, 2014, 01:07:33 PM
...almost there!...

Hi KL,
the final touches and
1.  there is a building in haze under No 15, between the soldier and the plane in background,
2.  rockets are olive green with black fins,
3.  wing leading edge between landing gear nacelle and light brown AMT-1 field is dark gray AMT-12.
Hope, I am already there...  ;)

The final picture is posted in the galery at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1891.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1891.0)
Thanks a lot for your help.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 model 1943 late
Post by: bbrought on October 24, 2014, 06:10:04 PM
As I said in the "completed" gallery, great job! Also, thank you KL for all your valuable inputs.