Sovietwarplanes

General Category => works in process => Topic started by: 66misos on November 12, 2014, 07:49:15 PM



Title: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 12, 2014, 07:49:15 PM
Hi,
this is the next photo I want to colorize:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141112_Ildva_zostreleny_original_zpsfa1d4ef5.jpg)
The resolution is not very good (however, the best from those I found), but there are several reasons why it attracts me:
- I want to do black-green Il-2,
- there should be visible primer - at least on propeller blades - what color?
- there are damages on the rear fuselage - what color?
- there are exposed internal surfaces (open cover bellow exhaust) - what color?
So keep fingers, please ;)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2014, 08:00:54 PM
Hi Misos,
it's a good photo indeed.
The damage on the rear fuselage looks due to stripping away the fabric layer. It should appear yellow.
Hard to say about the opened panel. I suppose it is zinc chromate, maybe on the greenish side.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: learstang on November 13, 2014, 01:12:14 AM
The exposed portion of the propellers should be bare metal, from the look of it. The exposed engine panel also might be a medium grey, A-14 Steel Grey.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 13, 2014, 05:14:36 PM
Hi,
this I found at Mig3 page in the "Table of inside colors and primers utilized on Soviet warplanes 1937-1950" section at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/internal-colors-primers.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/internal-colors-primers/internal-colors-primers.html):

"IL-2M, straight duralumin wing. The plane was carrying black and green camouflage and colors are preserved beautifully! Undersides are still shiny! Interior is primed with "zinc-chromate?, bomb bay sides are covered with the fabric lined plywood painted in silver. Access covers, gun bay covers and flaps skinning - all made of plywood. All internal surfaces are primed with zinc-chromate of different shades, in places it looks like Russian "aotake?. Serial number is preserved on the landing gear doors. No traces of other paints there."

"My" plane is also black-green, yellow-green primer would make it more colorfull and as there is no other clear evidence, I decided to make the internal surfaces same as Il-2M in the Kiev museum.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 14, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
Hi Misos, this looks likely. Perhaps dark red brown could be visible somewhere, but not distinguishable from green or dark grey on a bw photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 14, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
Hi,
here is my up-today work:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141113_Ildva_zostreleny_01_zpse6b568fc.jpg)
Seems green turns out to be too yellowish :(
I guess it should be something like this:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/mark-colors/plainstar1.jpg)

Camoflage scheme is similar to this one from Mig3 page http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/il2-late1941.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/il2-late1941.htm)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/bigstar/il2-sp-fm-amv-3view-col-nkapcamo12.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 14, 2014, 08:18:29 PM
Hi Misos, it's a good start.
I agree that the green is somewhat too yellowish.
I think that the factory number on the nacelle is red.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: KL on November 14, 2014, 09:11:13 PM
Hi Misos,
that open engine panel is part of the "bronekorpus", made of steel, not duraluminium - so, the correct primer should be ALG-5 (gray-green, lighter than AMT-4 (i.e. 4BO))

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/1948-scan-alg.jpg)

Massimo, are you sure there is no fuselage star???

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: learstang on November 14, 2014, 11:17:49 PM
Konstantin, do you believe that ALG-5 is much like the British Interior Green? They're both grey-green colours, but it looks like the ALG-5 is quite a bit darker (I realise that the ALG-1 and ALG-5 primers varied quite a bit in colour).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: KL on November 14, 2014, 11:42:26 PM
pigments in "British Interior Green" and ALG-5 are different, so their colors are most likely different

British Interior Green:
yellow zinc-chromatte + small amount of black pigment

ALG-5:
50% yellow zinc-chromatte + 50% (equal amount of) gray A-14


ALG-5 contains white pigments and fillers which are not present in "Interior Green".  For what I have seen, "Interior Green" is close to "olive green", ALG-5 should be "gray-green".

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 15, 2014, 06:02:51 AM
Hi Konstantin,
on the plane of the drawing, you mean? Yes, the photo is clear
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-sstd12a.jpg)
Usually stars on the fuselages of Il-2s in July-August 1941 were very large, but there is no trace on this photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 15, 2014, 11:21:07 AM
Hi,
these 2 photos are from Mig3 page and they both should show the colorized Il-2. There is no fuselage red star.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-a.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/grounded2.jpg)

They better show plane itself, but they are in even lower resolution than colorized one.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: KL on November 15, 2014, 07:57:13 PM
Hi Massimo,
I see, there is definitively no fuselage stars. Interesting, because it's non-standard.
Maybe the photo was taken in 1942, not in 1941?

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2014, 10:57:05 AM
Hi KL,
I suppose that the plane was built in July-August 1941 in Z,18, but it could be not the case.
The factory number is nearly readable, and it doesn't seem to start with 18. 
Another possibility is that the plane was made in z. 381, that built very few planes before being converted to Lavochkins in late 1942.
Very few photos are known with positive identification of these planes, but it's thought that they had wooden fuselage and the same type of metallic wings utilized in 1941.
Photos of plane of z 381 is known, and it is without markings on the fuselage. Anyway the canopy with reduced armour suggests a plane built in summer 1941, or at least before 1942 that was the year on which Z.381 produced the most part of its few Il-2s.
All what I know on this is here, at the bottom of the page:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942.htm)
Another plane of z.381 with unretractable ski gear is here:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942wintercamo.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/il-2model1942wintercamo.htm)
It is possible that some misidentified plane of z-381 could be found here:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/il2-late1941.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/il2-late1941.htm)

Planes of Z.381 could wear a camo pattern similar to that used on planes of Z.18 around August 1941, and by Z.30 in 1942 and 1943. This makes them difficult to identify.
Besides, the fuselage star looks missing in some planes built by Z.1 in 1942 and 1943. Unclear if it was omitted at the factory, or deleted in some units.
Anyway, plane n.12 has a metallic rear fuselage and tail (parallel lines on the fin identify this characteristic), and for what I know Z.18 was the only one to build metallic rear fuselages on part of its planes up to the second half of 1941.

Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2014, 04:23:49 PM
Hi Misos,
look at this photo:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/img_988385_1393626640_getImage-1.jpg.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/img_988385_1393626640_getImage-1.jpg.html)
It's very clear, although the resolution isn't particularly high. It could be a candidate for colorizing.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 16, 2014, 04:38:51 PM
Hi Massimo,
that picture is really very nice (and clear). I will surely consider it.
Anyhow, here is updates Il-2:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141116_Ildva_zost_02_zpsdd61bdf2.jpg)
Country is not finished yet. I wanted to do it to get overall feeling and to check imperfection on the border plane/country.

Could anybody identify, please, uniforms of those soldiers? Luftwaffe grey-blue or infantry grey-green?
Thank you.
    66misos



Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2014, 06:07:19 AM
Hi Misos,
I don't know for sure, but looks compatible with Wehrmacht.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 18, 2014, 09:01:13 PM
Hi,
soldiers are dressed in Wehrmacht uniforms now, plus some other details added. Picture is closing to finish (I hope).
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141118_Ildva_zost_03_zps34bb41cb.jpg)
Caption under the picture could be something like "German soldiers posing on the belly landed Il-2 single-seater. The souvenir-hunters have removed parts of the skinning, leaving to see the yellowish putty for wood. Note the plane is without the fuselage red star. Probably summer 1941."
Any corrections are more than welcome.
Regards,
     66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: KL on November 18, 2014, 09:46:39 PM
Probably summer 1941."[/i]

IMHO, not much there to suggest summer 1941...  It looks to me more plausible these photos were taken in spring/summer 1942.

Grass and background as you colorized them are way too green for summer, even for late spring. I would definitively add some dry grass color.

check here http://www.warcolorphotos.com/eastern-front

Also, less haze in far distance.  It looks like early morning...  :)

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2014, 09:49:10 PM
Hi Misos,
the yellow putty on the wrecks of MiG-3 of Vesivema depot looks much brighter, more or less as zinc chromate.
I see a sort of shadow over the peeling off on the rear fuselage, perhaps the contour of the black band close to the tail should be revised there. Or maybe it is a part of a scarcely visible but big red star, I think to see the upper part of a brace.
The landing light on the left wing is visible, it should be colorized as the other one.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2014, 07:25:18 AM
Hi KL and Misos,
can be that the photo is of 1942. Anyway, the plane was likely built in summer 1941. Besides the slightly armored canopy, I now see that the plane lacks of a thin stripe of sheet covering the upper part of the gap between the spinner and the cowling to prevent the access of snow and perhaps of rain. They started to add it in summer 1941; it was sometimes refitted to already built planes, in this case could be unpainted metal.
What do you think of the shadow of star I think to see? Its central part is just under the rear peeling off on the fuselage. It looks a bit smaller than expected and moved a bit to the top of fuselage, not reaching the blue part.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 19, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Hi Gents,
thanks for comments.

KL, very good link to color photos ;D I will use them as refference.

Massimo, check my post #11 of this thread at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1910.msg15773#msg15773 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1910.msg15773#msg15773)
Hi,
these 2 photos are from Mig3 page and they both should show the colorized Il-2. There is no fuselage red star.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-a.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/grounded2.jpg)

They better show plane itself, but they are in even lower resolution than colorized one.
Regards,
   66misos
plus another photo from Mig3 pages:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/grounded.jpg)

The photos show the same Il-2 from the different angles - there are no red stars on the fuselage.
But you are right about that "shadow over the peeling off on the rear fuselage close to the tail" - it looks like black band continuing from the oposit side of the fuselage.

So, I will update the picture:
- some dry grass color will be added,
- less haze in far distance, (yes, according to the shadows it is surely not in morning),
- the yellow putty a bit more brighter (color can vary),
- the black band close to the tail will be revised,
- the hole on the left wing from the broken landing light will be a bit colorized (it is in dark and shadow),
- photo "Probably spring/summer 1942"

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Hi Misos and KL,
I'm in doubt on the year 1942. The plane was built in summer 1941, it was not updated with metal plates on its canopy nor with a thin metal stripe around the junction of the spinner, as was often made during overhaulings. So it's hard to believe that it was repainted.
Despite this, the paint is still semigloss, so it can't have been exposed for long to weathering, nor on its airfield nor on the field where it landed on its belly.
Another thing: on the other photo, I think to see an horizontal striping off extending on the rear damage. The discontinuity in color could give the idea of an horizontal brace of a star. I think you should add this damage in yellowish color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: learstang on November 19, 2014, 05:34:09 PM
I agree with Massimo that this is probably from the Summer of 1941, not 1942. It doesn't have the armour over the sliding canopy, which was retrofitted to early Il-2's. This is also a very early Il-2, with the starboard wing light, and the inboard-mounted ShVAK 20-mm cannons. Although it's certainly not impossible, it's unlikely that many very early Il-2's survived to the Summer of 1942. The absence of the plate (thin metal strip behind the spinner) behind the propeller is also indicative of a 1941 Il-2; this was retrofitted to those aeroplanes that didn't have it, and apparently in 1941 (I have photographs from 1941 which show this plate, sometimes unpainted for those that were added in the field).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 19, 2014, 10:11:14 PM
Hi,
today update - all changes according to my previous post.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141119_Ildva_zostreleny_03_zpsfab96ba9.jpg)
Massimo, I do not know, but I do not see any trace of the red star on the fuselage on those pictures.
Interesting discussion about summer 1941 vs. summer 1942. Seems summer 1941 looks more probable.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: learstang on November 19, 2014, 10:30:31 PM
That's looking good, 66misos! Another item indicating that this photograph is from the early days of Barbarossa is the casual attitude of the Germans; after a year of hard fighting (by the Summer of 1942), neither the war nor the machines they captured seemed so interesting and novel.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: KL on November 19, 2014, 10:32:39 PM
I agree that it is an "early Il-2" with ShVAK cannons and wooden rear fuselage.  I still can't figure out when wooden fuselage was introduced...   ??? wooden fuselage will probably determine the earliest date when this Il-2 may have been produced...

According to Rastrenin's books this was a "series Il-2 AM-28 with ShVAK cannons made by Zavod 18 in summer 1941"

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/z381a.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-nkap.jpg)

no relationship to Zavod 381 (photos appear on Massimo's Il-2 model 1942 page)...

If  plane on two photos above has wooden fuselage, the plane on colorized photo displays factory applied green-black camouflage and it was made in summer/early autumn 1941 by Zavod 18 in Voronezh, before it was evacuated in November 1941...

Plane on colorized photo wasn't necessarily shot down on the same day when assembled - something like "summer/early autumn 1941" would be more likely the time when German photos were taken.

HTH,
KL

PS,  IMHO, the background should be dominated by yellow/light brown dry grass, i.e. autumn colors...  ;)  BTW, jackets and caps are more appropriate for Sept/October than for July/August.   ;D
During the summer, shirts were enough:

(http://www.warcolorphotos.com/photo/eastern-front/03-ukrainian-village.jpg)

 


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 19, 2014, 11:36:03 PM
Hi KL,
I went through all Eastern front pictures at http://www.warcolorphotos.com/eastern-front (http://www.warcolorphotos.com/eastern-front) for inspiration and some "weighted average" and IMHO, unless we do not know exact date, this could be an acceptable compromise for "summer/early autumn":
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141119_Ildva_zostreleny_04_zps3b7cf61e.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2014, 06:17:20 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I know that Rastrenin describes this plane as made by Z.18 in August 1941, but it looks questionable: the use of one star in this factory is strange, as the fact that the star on the tail is not centered on the rudder's hinge line.
The site where I found the information about Z.381 gives the factory serial of the plane, so I think that the author has found more reliable informations.
I don't know the exact date when Z.18 stopped to build metal rear surfaces. It was allowed to do so because at the start of production it hadn't appropriate facilities for working wood. Probably there was a period during the summer when planes were delivered both with metal and wood fuselages, and I suppose that metal ones ceased to be built around August.

As for the date, I think that summer/autumn 1941 is the most likely one for the image.

Hi Misos,
the ground looks good. Imho, an horizontal yellow peeling off is still missing.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 20, 2014, 09:06:03 AM
Hi Massimo,
I am not sure that I understand what part of horizontal yellow peeling off you mean.
I enlarged photo of the rear part of the fuselage and played a bit with contrast and brightness to better distinguish individual shades:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141120_Ildva_poskodeniezadnehotrupu_01_zps5e4adf11.jpg)
Is that what you mean? Or, please, mark that part either by arrow or in the circle.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2014, 01:31:55 PM
Hi Misos,
I see it in this way:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/images/il2misos.jpg)
By the way, have you altered the darkness in some parts? On the original photo, the rectangle I've painted yellow is as light as the close ones. here it has a darker look.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Il-2 shot down
Post by: 66misos on November 20, 2014, 06:13:43 PM
Hi Massimo,
I updated picture - horizontal yellow stripe is added on the rear fuselage.
In some parts/areas I changed also darkness when green was "tuned". Plus different coloring approaches/methods I use for different areas and/or details and/or corrections give different results.
So, this would go to the galery:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/Il-2%20zostreleny/141120_Ildva_zostreleny_05_zps3fa9e23f.jpg)
German soldiers posing on the belly landed Il-2 single-seater. The souvenir-hunters have removed parts of the skinning, leaving to see the yellowish putty for wood. Note the plane is without the fuselage red star. Probably summer/autumn 1941.
Regards,
   66misos

EDIT Nov 21, 2014: gallery at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1912.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1912.0)