Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
I've decided to build La-5FN that was flown by V.I. Popkov.
I have following decals:
- from 1/72 kit Lavochkin La-5FN Soviet Aces Part I KPC-054 (I do not have instruction sheet)
http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?KPC-054
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Image3.jpg)
- Eduard set "Russian WWII Aces" D72-002
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Image1.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Image2.jpg)

Now, according to pics from the kit, Popkov's aircraft is gray-gray. Layout of victory stars on decals and on illustration differs slightly.

According to Eduard, aircraft is overall dark grey with blotches of light brow and dark green. But, layout of victory starts (and their size?) is just as on box illustration from above kit.

Not quite visible on my scans (was afraid of copyright issues) on Eduard sheet Gurads badge is (more like) gold-red and tigers head is in yellow, while on sheet from KP kit Guards badge is yellow - dark red, and tigers head is light brown.
Also, the size of number "01" on Eduard sheet is 11mm, while on KP sheet is 13mm. Stars on KP sheet also have additional red outline.

According to page:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Lavochkin/La-5/Decals/Aeromaster_72036/
and:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Osprey15/index.php
says:
"… In the Winter of 1943-44 "Yellow 01" was finished originally in a solid AMT-11 livery, then was subsequently completed in the typical temperate two-color livery with AMT-12 over that. The stars on the fuselage and tail were yellow-bordered types, and the twin bands were done in white. The spinner at this time might still have been dark blue (it was this color originally), and the fin/rudder might not yet have had a white 'tab' on the tip. Popkov did indeed later fly another La-5FN numbered "01", but no useful photograph exists of this machine."

Looks to me that correct option would be to use Eduard decals, but with grey-grey or only light grey but no blotches?
Any supporting info?

One more thing… If Popkov flew on some other type of La-5/7, I would be grateful for any info on that. It would be nice to add some historical touch to this pilot.

Many thanks!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that on page http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/la5_72.php there are pics of completed kits. The one that Ilya Grinberg completed has even different layout of victory stars, plus some of them are yellow...

Good luck. The Wings Palette page below gives no less than 8 different profiles for this aircraft, although some of them may be similar; I didn't look at all of them:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/336/1/2

To make matters even worse, Erik Pilawskii (on the CD "Radial Engined Lavochkins of WW2") argues that this aircraft was actually a
La-5F, NOT an FN!
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/CD/laCD.html

This page has a couple of Popkov a/c, including a La-5F in overall green, which is debatable for sure, but has a great text inscription on it, I believe as a donation aircraft by a Moscow jazz band:
http://airwar.valka.cz/sssr/la_05/index.php?page=zbarveni

Here you can find "Canon UK"'s skins for the La-5 series - he went with the La-5FN, in AMT-11/12/7:
http://www.canons-skins.com/other/la5.htm

Details of this aircraft are so few, it's almost impossible for anyone to say you're completely wrong, no matter what scheme (and type!) you choose! You should consider buying Erik's CD, though. I have no idea what the "truth" is, but my vote would be to go with Erik's La-5F in AMT-11/12/7 theory, partly because I like the look of the F better than the FN!? ;)

I'm sorry - you're probably even more confused now than you were before. It does illustrate the point, though, that it's extremely difficult to be 100% sure about any details of such an aircraft, and all you can do is decide what suits you, after reviewing all the evidence. There are ongoing arguments over even well-photographed aircraft, never mind one such as this, for which only a few images seem to exist, taken from too close to show overall details of the camouflage scheme.

John

Hi,
Thanks for reply. I've seen all of the profiles on Wings Palette. Somehow I do not think those brown-green schemes are correct.
The Czech link you provided with an aircraft donated by Jazz orchestra is magnificent! This is something worth considering.
This link of yours seems like one of most probable:
http://www.canons-skins.com/other/la5.htm

I forgot to include this photo as a bit of a reference:
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/popkov10.jpg)
(from page http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/popkov/popkov.htm)
(Also, there is yet another scheme with dark-yellow rudder and some white/grayish surfaces over lt grey or grey-grey cammo)

There is no red outline on the Star, and the outline looks a bit darker, so I presume that the outline was yellow. Hard to tell anything about the outline for victory stars. Number "01" could be in yellow as well, as there is the same grayish tone on the same height as on the Star (but it could also be a Popkov's shadow?). The shape of zero is like the one on the Eduard sheet, but KP is closer in height and thicknes (but I may be fooling myself, as KP's zero is closer to actual zeros). There are some blotches visible around victory stars, but it could mean anything. It could easily be a demarcation between two grey colors, I've seen a lot of photos on which demarcation runs just like on this pic.
No trace of? upper (4th) row of victory stars.
Btw, any way to cross-reference his decorations with a date? I think that he received the first Golden Star on 8 September 1943.

Is there no other photograph of Popkov's aircraft? Where did those blotched scheme come from anyway? I mean, what was used as a reference?

John, thanks for your considerion - I'm not more confused than usual, quite accustomed to this ;D

Regarding Erik Pilawski's CD, anyone got it? Or where to get it? If someone has it, please check if there is any photograph of Popkov's aircraft. I've found it on http://www.cafepress.com/cbrnp.103463812 , but 25USD for just one pic... And if I get that CD, I'll have to buy at least 50 Lavotchkins? ::)? Just take a look at that poster! Drool...

BR

The only photo on Erik's Lavochkin CD is the same one you show in your post, above. I had exactly the same thought as you - where DID that strange blotched scheme come from?!  ;)

John

Hi, :)
I had a look to the page.
To draw such a scheme, at least 3 good photos are needed. None of them is known... strange!
Besides, I'm very in doubt on the plane n.84 with lightnings, drawn on the same page. It resembles too much to this one
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/chkalov/chkalow84.html
but the slogan is different.
Who knows if any image of the plane with the other slogan do exist, or is only a misinterpretation of a known VCh plane?
Massimo

I saw a drawing of that plane in some book, but inscription was in Spannish with Latin letters, and there was a Star on the tail as well (lightning was under the Star).
I know about various bizzaro schemes, but there was always at least one photograph of it. This "puzzle" scheme is quite unique, and there is not a single photo to be found, not even any info about the source of this idea. The style of drawing reminds me to the style used in WW2 books from 60's and 70's (the books where Soviet aircraft were always pictured in brown-green cammo).

Regarding Popkov's aircraft, for now I vote that it is La-5FN, grey-grey cammo, yellow bordered star on fuselage.
But what about tail and undewing stars and "01"? Was there any other example of variously bordered stars?

According to the Russian Aces page...
http://wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm
...Popkov served with the 5GIAP and 739IAP, and flew the LaGG-3 , La-5 , La-5FN , and La-7. Perhaps researching those two squadrons could provide some further detail. Again, good luck!

John

hello dears!
first of all here comes a better picture of Popkov's 01:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/La5FNnr01Popkov5giap.jpg)

So it is obvious that the star is outlined in red.  I don't think there is any yellow color on this a/c. Star and digit is in standard white.

Regarding camo. IMHO it it's AMT11/12/7 as was a standard that time when Popkov flew this La-5. Thanks to Bomber from Russian VVS forum we have a nice skin for this a/c which imho resembles the a/c quite accurate.

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/La-5FN_white01_Popkov_5GvIAP_Bomber.jpg)

 Of course from the picture posted above it's hard to decide about all camo, but having in mind that 5giap had White spinner and front-edge of engine cowling in white as a regiment's distinguishing signs (I am not sure about white "cap" on the tail). Besides said before, assuming pictures of others La-5 from 5giap that gives a wider view on camo, we could have a general understanding about camo layout.

Here comes an interesting "document"- a color profile signed and revised by Popkov himself, dedicated to Milos Vestsik, known Lavochkin expert by  his publication by MBI , that I would recommend you very much.

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/La5nr01_PopkovV.jpg)

This profile was posted by Milos last year on Russian VVS forum.

Good luck modeling this nice a/c!
BR Audrius

Hi Audrius, :)
thank you for sharing these interesting informations.
About the light outline of the star visible on the photo: I see that the contrast between it and the white stripes is minimal in the upper part, and much stronger on the lower part. On this base, I guess that the color of the outline is silver, not white.
Massimo

hi Massimo
regarding to silver- imho it is no way in this case. The different shade is due to the natural light effect, that is all.

The other thing - about white cap on the tail. On the picture above in the background we can notice other La-5 most probably from same unit and it doesn't carry any white cap on the tail.
I don't have idea where from came this white cap on the Bomber's skin. Need to ask him.

BR Audrius

WOW! Audrius, thank you so much fo rthis amazing infos and pics! I feel like Alan Rickman in Die Hard, even started to sing "Ode to Joy"  ;D

Regarding the color of the outline and the number, I have to agree with John and have some suspicions about being it in white. Shades are quite different. Hard to imagine that aging or color mixture could have such an impact on shades in grayscale....
Btw, the plane in the background is also interesting. There is a large star on the tail, but none is visible (to my pooor eyes) on the fuselage, unlees it is without outline? Stripes are not in the same position, and there is no additional coloring on tail.

About a color profile signed and revised by Popkov himself... Well, I was aircraft mechanic on MiG-21 in Croatian Air Force (in late phase during Independance war), and from a first hand experience I know that pilots payed little attention to exact coloring of the aircraft they flew. Ground crew knew much more about particular aircraft than any of the pilots. Ie, in my time there were about 12 a/c, and there were about 4 different layouts in switches connected to electronic equipment (my field). I had to guide about half of the pilots around starting procedure for radio on the a/c I was assigned to. Also, each mechanic had a notebook with tips for a particular a/c.
So, with all respect to Popkov

PS - Any exact translation of what is written in the revision? My russian is a bit upolished, but as far I can tell he says:
"On this aircraft [-don't know-] Secon World War, from 1943 to the victory [rest don't know]"

Thanks again!
BR

Got it!
Here it is:
Decription in Cyrillic
"Уважаемому Milos Vestsik с благодарностью на память.
На этом самолете я не знал поражений в течение длительного периода Великой Отечественной войны (с 1943 до победы). "Жеребчик" лихо вывозил из самых трудных периодов воздушных боев. Подпись. 26.06.03"

"To dear Milos Vestsik with gratitude to remember.
With this plane I was unbeateble for a long time of WW2 (1943-45). "Stallion" sucessfully carried me out of many hard episodes of air combat. Signature. 26.06.03"

"To respected Milos Vestsik with gratitude for(?) memory.
On this plane i havent been defeated during continous period of Great Patriotic War(Since 1943 and until Victory). *Stallion* dashingly took me out of the hardest periods of dogfights."

Many thanks to Laivynas and DimASS from lockon.ru for respective translations.

This is a very informative thread (thanks for starting it, Renato!), and learning that Popkov had given his fighter the nickname "Stallion" adds a great personal touch, thanks to Audrius, for the signed image, and to Renato, for the translation.

The puzzle is still, where did the images originate which show the odd mottled camouflage on the Eduard decal sheet instructions, plus the Guards emblem and the tiger's head on the cowling? And what about that all-green La-5F with the donation inscription on it?

Call me difficult (or worse) if you like, but I'm still tempted by Erik Pilawskii's La-5F theory for "Stallion/White 01", though...? ;)

John

hello
regarding Eduard's scheme- when did it appear, how long ago?

Most probably the Guards sign and perhaps the lion head was taken from Osprey issue on Aces. It shows Popkov's La-5 nr.01 with Guard sign on the cowling.
But no such picture was traced so far. Some people on Russian speaking forums doubts as well. It's a speculation.

I do agree to Renato, that pilots could not remember all fact regarding camo, especially of 60 and more years ago! But there are Aviation industry norms and standards of that time along with the vintage pictures survived , IMHO is the main source of the camo to be rebuild.

As to the different shades of white color on the star and fuselage strips. I do agree there is a difference in that,but don't think there is another color (yellow, silver or other) involved. Could be that the strips were painted on the field just masking a star.

BR Audrius

Hi everybody:
I agree with Audrius,the star and number are of the same shade of white,and different from the fuselage strips.The white paint looks newer on these bands.
I like to see a good an extensive thread as this one.Greetings:

Martin

 

hello,

there are some more news about this a/c and it's profile. On Russian board was able to communicate with skin author Bomber and known expert on Lavochkin Milos Vestsik.

First of all there should be no white cap on the tail. Bomber did so after he saw a color profile of this a/c in Osprey and it is wrong.

Second, Milos has informed that some time ago Slovakian VVS amateur who in that time communicated with Popkov by letters (not emails) trying to get as close to color profile of La-5 nr.01 as possible. After that profile was first published in Czech magazine with all that mottled camo, Guards sing and Lion head. Seems that this profile was repeated by Osprey as well just changing camo to AMT11/12 what was already obvious in the time of its printing. The Eduards's color profile seems to repeat the profile which was printed by Czech magazine.

In the time when the picture of La-5 Nr.01 was made there was just usual distinguishing signs of that 5giap and its corp: white stripes on the fuselage and white spinner with the edge of motor's cowling. BTW, the roots of blade were painted in white as well.

Moreover, the Guards sing and Lion head was painted actually!!! But that was made later after the war, 5giap still being in Germany. It was in Yellow. This news came from Milos who talked to Popkov.

Here I present the color profile by Milos presented in his book by MBI

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/La5nr01Popkov5giap_viaMilos.jpg)

BR Audrius

Hi Audrius, :)
great research indeed!
By the way, your contact with Milos could help to solve many other problems about Lavochkins.
This one, for example:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Forum/showthread.php?tid=552.

Massimo

Thank you all for putting so much effort into researching this subject.

First of all, permit me two flashbacks…

Yellow or white outline and/or number? Both are probable but white is getting more and more liable in my head. While I was pondering over this (and turning some pics of modern aircraft into greyscale), I've noted something in my kitchen: while all ceramic tiles and newly installed electrical plugs (made of white plastic) are still in shiny white, older plastic plugs and white painted woodwork is quite yellow in shade, very close to natural shade of light wood. Cheap, universal white paint looses it "white" very fast, sometimes within 6 months. So, white is quite believable, but in very dark, aged shade.

Second one is about that aircraft in the background of the pic that Audrius provided. On a closer examination I noted that two stripes are painted more to the forward than on Popkov's plane. And there is a star; just a tip of it is visible (between the stripes). Still, the strange details are weird shapes on the rear of the fuselage, prominent outline of the star on the tail, and it looks like the rear edge of the tail is painted. Any thoughts on that? Could this give any clue to the details about main subject? If there is some sort of outline on the tail, this could give a clue on why they are speculations whether tails on 5 GIAP a/c were painted or not.

To return to latest info…
I have to admit that thing are getting weirder and weirder. Looks to me that we have two sources, and they are both slightly contradicting themselves? If I got it right, Milos Vestsik came in touch with the source from which a mottled scheme came from, but in his later works he opted for grey-grey scheme. Then, Erik Pilawskii in his reviews of decal sheets says that numbers should be yellow (and on La5-FN), and later on he says numbers are whiter (and on La-5F).

Let me try with a reverse approach, motivated something that Audrius quoted:


(Question: what was in yellow?)

Is it correct to assume that at this period of time (late in the war and after) Popkov had La-7? If so, then the following is quite probable:
-   Late in the war 5 GIAP received La-7
-   The whole GIAP was not converted simultaneously (there may be some La-5F/FN leftovers)
-   Aircraft came from the factory wearing only one shade of grey
-   Various camouflaged schemes were applied in the field, most probably using paints from captured stocks (assuming that they were flying from the same airfields that Germans used)

If this is possible, then:
-   The aircraft with mottled cammo scheme is in fact a La-7
-   Guards badge and lions head were applied after the VE, maybe to impress Western newsmen (or simply because ground crew had more time on their hands).
-   Yellow outline could be applied because white was worn out and yellow was chosen because western newsmen expected (were accustomed to?) "a communist star with golden outline", or because of politically/propaganda motivated decision ("Paint it yellow! They have color cameras and it will look great in American magazines!"). It is quite possible that some painting was done by propaganda section, not by ground crew.
-   Popkov's La-5F and 5FN (most probably) had grey-grey cammo.

This irregularity is consistent with all of the debate regarding Kozhedub's La-7, as well with all of the one-grey La-7 and quite diverse two-grey schemes on La-7 (result of painting in the field, without paying proper attention to guidelines, but also in factory because they did care so much at the end?).
Also, using German paint is quite probable. I did not paint anything with the paints stated in Eduard sheet yet, but assuming that other modeler used those paints (and taking a look at their finished work)… Well, La-5FN painted like that looks quite "germanic", painted with shades of green and brown that are closer to those used on German vehicles than on Soviet aircraft.

In this case, each paint scheme is correct, but the type of the aircraft under each scheme is in question. Let me conclude with this speculation:
-   La-7 after VE day: with mottled cammo scheme, Guards badge, lions head, yellow outline(s) and numbers
-   La-7 before VE day: with mottled cammo scheme, no Guards badge and lions head, white outline(s) and numbers
-   La-5FN: grey-grey camo, no Guards badge and lions head, white outline(s) and numbers
-   La-5F: grey-grey camo, no Guards badge and lions head, white outline(s) and numbers
-   Any painting on the tail is out of the game for any aircraft (?)

In each case, dates are needed as a cross-reference to the numbed of victory stars (stil working on it).

A bit long lamenting, but I hope that it's not too difficult to follow? ;D

BR

EDIT:
In another thread there is a link with following information:

129 IAP (5 GIAP)*
Type - Start of exploatation - End of exploatation
I-153 - June 1941 - Autumn 1941
MiG-3 - June 1941 - Autumn 1941
LaGG-3 - August 1941 - September1942
La-5 - December 1942 - December 1944
La-7 - January 1945 - May 1945
* Formed in december 1941.

On that page there are no notes about La-5 versions ("zero", F or FN):
http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/soviaps/1_50iap.html

Hi,

I've been doing some research, mainly trying to read Russian pages. Got headache. Rusty in Cyrillic. Keep forgetting the start of sentence when I came to the end of one. Big notebook with scribbles. Until I compose myself, just few more pics that I've found lately.

Looks like lot of a excellent data on page http://aces.boom.ru/ (Krasnie Sokoli - Red Hawks), aces sorted out by theatre, and those from WW2 sorted by number of total victories.

V.I. Popkov: http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/popkov.htm
Number of victories # Combat sorties # Aerial engagements
55 - (41 + 13) + 1 unconfirmed # 475 # 117

There I found following illustrations:
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Popkov_LaGG-3_winter42-43.jpg)
"Истребитель ЛаГГ-3, зима 1942 - 1943 гг."
(Fighter LaGG-3, winter 1942 - 1943)
Date is tight match with a timetable about 129 IAP (5 GIAP).
This drawing looks generaly familiar to me. Anybody saw it before? Maybe its just included there for illustrative purposes (still struggling with text).

Same pic as before, but a bit higher:
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Popkov_La-5FN.jpg)
"Виталий Попков у своего Ла-5ФН."
(Vitalii Popkov with his La-5FN)
Looks like some crates were put under the tail for a better pic :)

And finally, from another site (link lost):
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Baevsky-Popkov-Eremenko.jpg)
"Baevsky-Popkov-Eremenko"

Marvelously supports profile and description kindly given by Audrius. No Guards badge. Silver strips on engine cowlings.

Any way to tell F from FN by any of this this pics?

But, take a look at the tail. Could the rear edge be trimmed in white? If you compare above pic with a detail from the pic Audrios provided (its slightly better visible on other two pics of mine, but stands out on each of them) :
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Popkov_detail.jpg)

This way, both the authors of color profiles with white-capped tail and those that painted profiles with diagonal strips are misinterpreting various descriptions. Maybe in some interview Popkov (or somebody from his unit) spoke of "white trim on tail" and on other occasion of "white stripe". But, in fact it is "trimmed with white stripe". Lost in translation, ayeh?

While performing this research, I've noted something interesting (when you read between the lines…):
-   In Soviet (Russian) sources that describe unit or pilot activity, not the aircraft itself, there is almost no mention of "F" version. In some sources there is not mention of "FN" at all.
-   Quite a lot of Guards badges, HSU orders and victory markings were (re)painted during May 1945. Most probably by order from HQ, for propaganda reasons.

I have few more thoughts, but I rather hear your opinios.

BR

Great images, Renato! The first photo (Popkov standing by the tail of "Stallion"), despite its familiarity, is interesting because of the resolution - you can actually see what appears to be the diagonal edge of the reinforcing plate on the fuselage side below the cockpit, which identifies the aircraft as a La-5FN! The apparent absence of this plate in a less-clear version of the same image was what led Erik to propose that the aircraft was a La-5F, not a La-5FN. So this seems to be solved, in favour of the commonly-accepted La-5FN designation of "White 01" (darn - I really wanted it to be an F...? ;) ).

In the second photo (Baevsky, Popkov. Eremenko), the length and shape of the bulge (actually the intake scoop) on the top of the cowling are pretty definitely features of the La-5FN. Even from this angle, I think the "hump" on the cowling of the La-5F would appear differently-shaped. The small cockpit ventilation scoop visible just ahead of the windscreen was a feature of both the La-5F (late?) and the La-5FN, so this doesn't help. But I think it's pretty clearly a La-5FN!

I do think the apparent white edging on the rudder of the aircraft in the background is just a trick of the light, though...

Nice work, Renato - you've really done your homework on this one, and I thank you for adding to my own knowledge on this subject, and perhaps other people's, too!

John

Hi Renato, :)
 thank you for sharing your researches.
I think you are right about the white cap on the rudder top, both images seem to show it.
About the plane in the photo with 3 pilots, I agree with John to identify it as a FN, because the F had a different exhaust flap on the engine cowling side, with one protruding pipe on each side, as La-5.
John, please note that this one has the whole reinforcing plate camouflaged. ;)
About LaGG-3 n.25, I don't think to have ever seen photos of it. If anyone finds it, please let me know. It worts a profile.
Massimo

Hello, gentlemen and a very interesting discussion you have here.
if the aircraft in the background of the image with the three men is Popkov's then it is definitely an FN.
the FN badge is visible above the head of the middle man.
this is diamond-shaped whereas the 'F' logo was round.
also the sides of the engine cowling are cylindrical...denoting FN
La-5 and La-5F have 'onion-shaped' cowlings.
Thank You very much for this high-quality image too, it's very nice.

[/color]

No no - go here:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/cowling/cowling.html
...for the latest La-5 series cowling thinking, substantiated with photos. It's also what's shown in the drawings in Milos Vestsik's "Lavochkin La-5" book, published by MBI. Noooo onion-shapes!!!? :o

Again, for everyone's entertainment, I'll trot out my crazed theory about how the onion-shape idea originated: The very early transitional aircraft between the LaGG-3 and the La-5 was the LaG-5. Less than a hundred of these were built, using ASh-82 (M-82) radial engines and existing LaGG-3 fuselages. That much is fact; here's the theory part: In order to adapt the large radial to the narrow LaGG-3 fuselage, a tapered ("onion-shaped") cowling was created. After combat trials with the LaG-5, the airframe was redesigned, and the fuselage widened ahead of the cockpit to suit the engine diameter more accurately. The redesigned aircraft was designated La-5; this, and all subsequent aircraft in the series, had cylindrical cowlings.

I have to stress that this is my own theory, which agrees with details of the development history of the La-5. I've never seen any definite proof that it's correct, but on the other hand, no one's ever said it's wrong, either! Bottom line, though - Massimo and Milos seem to be in agreement on the La-5 cowling shape, and that's where I'm putting my money!? ;) Anyway, read Massimo's article, and you'll see what I mean.

BTW, this also means that the VES/Cooperativa/Eastern Express 1/72 kit, which, in its Cooperativa form at least, is called a "LaG-5", is correctly molded, in that it has a tapered cowling. Trouble is, just try to find decals for one, or photos of a *real* LaG-5...

And Massimo - nice catch - I missed the cowling flap shape! But I was really pleased to see the visible edge of the wing root area reinforcing plate (unless anyone wants to argue that it's something else) in Renato's image of Popkov posing beside his favourite fighter - this puts the La-5F/La-5FN argument to bed quite nicely!

John

Hi John, :)
there are excellent photos of LaGG-3 M-82 prototype on Lavochkin's piston-engined fighter, even from the rear and showing the frames supporting the engine cowling panels, and I see that it was cylindrical. The metal plates on the sides were not only for hot exhaust fumes, but also to contribute to widen the fuselage of LaGG-3, whose wooden part was identical to that of La-5.
Massimo

The value in advancing a theory, even if it's rubbish, is that it can lead to useful discussion of the subject - I'm quite happy to poke my hat out on a stick to see if anyone shoots at it, if I learn something from the experience!  :D So, if even the prototype LaGG-3/M-82 had a cylindrical cowling, where did the idea come from that the La-5 and La-5F had a tapered cowling? According to Milos Vestsik's La-5 book, it seems that cowling manufacture was a significant obstacle in completing the first production batches of the LaGG-5; could this be a clue?

I wonder if anything might be determined from one of the Russian forums? I'd be curious to know on what information Voronin based his 1986 drawings - these show *all* La-5 series aircraft, including the La-5F and La-5FN, to have tapered ("onion-shaped") cowlings, which we dispute today, based on photographic evidence.

John

having reviewed the matter in more detail I believe the truth is more complicated...as usual.
it seems to me the onion-shaped cowling was on earlier planes and not on the later ones, and I do not know exactly when it changed.
I do not believe it has any significance with the engine fitted under the cowling
it seems the cowling was complicated and difficult to manufacture so it was deemed necessary to simplify it so that production would not be slowed down.
add to that the scarcity of the 'F' engine and many of the aircraft you think are La-5F are really just La-5 ,
even if it has a bubble canopy.
it seems logical to me the same thing goes for the 'FN' engine, as I imagine that fuel-injection must have been a very new idea in the USSR at the time.
so it seems that unless it has an 'F' or 'FN' badge on the cowling or tail it is just an La-5
even if it has a cylindrical cowling and bubble canopy

as you can probably tell I'm also interested in finding correct decals and also what kit they are intended to fit. I am in agreement with you about the VES kit and the lack of correct and accurate decals for it.
(also boxed under the Maquette name with an excellent quality set of decals, as for accuracy that is a different matter)

are you saying that Milos' new book on the La-5 shows cylindrical cowling for all, including the 'Razorback'?
(another book on the list that hasn't been added to my collection yet)
edit : this book is now in my collection--it was worth the wait!
I would like to see some 1/48 decals based on this book.

[/color]

I don't think your theory is rubbish , it actually makes a lot of sense.[/color]


consider it shot at !
(good-natured teasing :) )
life should be a learning experience from your birth to your death.
[/color]


Yes! I think it is a significant clue.
perhaps the cowling was more tapered ('onion') in the early machines and as production matured the angle of the taper was reduced slowly in stages.
it was also the complexity of fitting the M-82A , M-82F and M-82FN all under the same cowling,that could not have been easy!
also keep in mind there are a lot of series in between 312136xx (LaGG-3 M-82) and 312143xx (312145xx is La-7) and these might have been for continuing improvements in the cowling.
(aside from series 36 I do not know of any even-numbered series of La-5 , might these have been the La-5 UTI ? )
[/color]

Man, those constructors are lucky to be far away from you guys - you would tear them apart? ;D

About onions, potatoes, F and FN… As far as I understood the story of La-5, "onion shaped" is much larger figure of speech then you would estimate. When designing cowling for first radial engine there were two things that presented problems: haste and manufacturing. There was a haste to start a new production line, and the design of cowling came out imperfect. Combined with relative poor manufacturing process (due to circumstances), new cowling was not hermetic enough. Air escaped everywhere and distorted the cowling, in some places/areas more then in another and as a result an aircraft with strangely shaped cowling could return from test flight.
You see, there are two means to control the cooling of radial engine, by regulating the intake and by regulating the exhaust (venting). If you close exhaust flap, air is trapped inside the engine space (plenum) and it prevents fresh air from entering. But, it requires hermetic vessel, and if it's not hermetic, air will try to escape through small openings, widening them in process in possibly deforming them as well. Non-hermetic space also cause drag due to inability to control the airflow, and that was the main reason to introduce changes in cowling in first "true" La-5 series.
I believe that any shape other then cylindrical was either result of poor initial craftsmanship, or later deformations during exploitation, and not a deliberate intention by designers.

Dark Green is correct regarding difficulties in production. There was also a problem if distributing the blueprints. Some factories had to invent their own solutions to already solved problem, especially when adapting old tools to new parts.
Engines available to individual factory led to funny combinations of engines and fuselages. One example is described by Dark Green: regular M-82 on a bubbletop fuselage. Another one is a reverse situation. Some factories kept producing LaGG-3, and much later on they received M-82 engines. So, they re-engined LaGG-3 into La-5. But, they never received blueprint for bubbletop fuselage and canopy, or blueprints for new tools. Before they were done or even started with re-tooling, they received a batch M-82F, and they simply screw it up on LaGG fuselage:

From "Voyna v vozduhe":
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/La-5F_razorback_12.jpg)

From "Lavochkin La-5" by MBI:
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/La-5F_razorback_11.jpg)

Of note is difference in comments, where Russian simply states "Area of Byelgorod, summer 1943", while Czech issue claims more in detail.
They looks like they are cammo, not one-colored.

Presence and type of the badge on the cowling is probably most important detail. It was not only an important telltale for mechanics, but most probably it was intended for pilots, as flying with each type of engine differed a lot.

But, let me return to Popkov saga… Here is the same pic as before, in different quality, and <FN> is clearly visible! (I've missed it last time, thanks for spotting)

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Baevsky-Popkov-Eremenko_v2.jpg)

Comment to pic says that white propeller tips were common to 5th GIAP.

And now, a bit of Jazz in F-major...

Quote: "National artist of Soviet Union, Leonid Utesov (on the wing, left) presents two? La-5F named "Veselye rebyata" specifically for the 5th GIAP. Both aircraft survived to the end of war."
Left side: "Veselye rebyata" ("Jolly bunch", name of Utesovs popular Jazz album and movie from 30's)
Right side: "Ot dzhaz-orkestra L. Utesova" (From L. Utesov's Jazz orchestra)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/wImage5.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/wImage4.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/wImage3.jpg)

Photographed March 22nd 1944 (MBI), spring 1943 (Osprey), November 1943 (Voyna), depending on the source.? ::)
Luckily, I've been working on 5th GIAP history, so I guarantee its November '43, as at that time the regiment was converted to "new La-5".
Interestingly, there is no (F) on cowling, although all sources claim it's "F". Exhaust also looks more like non-F.

Now, this profile claims that this aircraft was flown by Alexandar Masterkov in November 1943, but colors look a bit dark to me. On pics it looks more like grey-grey cammo, especially when you take a look at hats and coats. Also, spinner is green, and it should be white.

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/wImage6.jpg)

As I'm still working on Popkov's and his regiment history, but I'm going to say only this:
He was awarded HSU on 8th September 1943, while on sick leave, after loosing his a/c immediately after scoring his 17th victory.
5th GIAP started to convert to "new La-5" during September '43.
Number of Victories on "01" is 33.

Thanks for all comments and M-82 discussion. They are more helpful then you think, for theory has advanced!

Well, LaGG-3 "25" with 3 victories - style of the number is familiar, but so far I found only pics that claim 3rd or 4th GIAP. And Popkov scored only 3 or 4 victories on LaGG-3. So, 17 - 3 = 14, on what machine?

Just for John, I've just run into this gem...? 8)



(dramatic space)




(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Popkov_La-5F.jpg)

Hi Renato,  :)
I've found the same image on the MBI monograph  and I was ready to upload it. According to the comments and to the thing protruding from the flap, it should be an F, but not the 01 plane.
My compliments for the documents that you've collected.
Hi John, :)
about the drawings of Voronin: this could be an interpretation from front photos. They show the front ring as circular, the side panel line on the cowling as  curved, and reached the conclusion that the cowling was tapered as that of Ki-100. Possibly he didn't see images of the flaps from the rear, they only were decisive on this argument.
Massimo

Well, thanks, all, especially Renato for some great images. I guess I expected too much - I hoped the La-5/La-5F/La-5FN progression could have been better defined, but obviously not. I'm not surprised, considering the way the LaGG-3 "evolved", with (despite Stapfer's attempt at rationalizing things) no clear distinctions regarding (for example) a sharp cut-off between series 3 and series 4, or whatever. I guess it boils down to the late Modeler Al's signature line, "Build what you want, the way you want to, and enjoy yourself!". I'm at least confident now that I could build a model of "Stallion/White 01" that could be defended against the critics, *and* have fun doing it! (Sorry for derailing things here - this *was* Renato's thread to begin with, wasn't it!)? ;)

Note to DGM - yes, the drawings in Milos Vestsik's book show all variants to have the cylindrical (not shaped like an onion, turnip, or any other edible root...? ;D) cowling. I was willing to believe that this was based on Massimo's research, but it may be that Milos had other sources to refer to as well. You *really* should buy this excellent book!

John

onions ? potato's ? turnips ?
I didn't know this was a garden , I thought it was an aviation forum !? :-[

all kidding aside, I want to thank you (all) for an interesting discussion and some very interesting photos
some of which I have not seen before.
the evolution of the LaGG-3 should have been a clue to the fact that continued evolution of the type would not be easy either.
although the 'In Action' series of books on the GPW-era VVS are excellent sources for photographs, please do not read the text ; you will only get confused.

I purchased my copy of Milos' La-7 book on ebay for $17.00 (US) before shipping and handling.
the only place I know of selling the La-5 book is selling it for $31 !? -you do the math-
when I find a reasonably priced copy I will be certain to add it to my collection.

[/color]

Oops - I paid $43 Cdn at Toronto's Aviation World for the La-5 book, and considered it money well spent! As was discussed in another thread, sometimes common sense isn't a factor in modelbuilding purchasing decisions... In my case, especially when it has anything to do with the La-5!? :D

John

Thank You, John !
you have brightened my day and given me a laugh to boot.
at a 23% exchange rate (probably not accurate) it comes out to $33.11 US so maybe it isn't so overpriced as I thought.
as for model-building common sense, I know what you mean.
we all have our own unique 'passions' for certain aircraft or camo patterns or aircraft flown be aces or other notable pilot, etc etc.
besides, who says a hobby has to be perfectly sensible anyway?
what fun would that be ?

[/color]

Renato:

I just want to congratulate you for this wonderful and interesting investigation.And to the forumers who contributed to make this excellent thread.Greetings:

Martin

Hi all,

Small addition to my research… I've found an interview with Popkov!
http://militaryvideo.ru/eng/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=172

It's in Russian; I'll try to extract as much info as possible. For now just few most interesting screenshots of pics from his personal archive:

This could be an early one, only one star on shoulder…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Maestro_capture_1.jpg)

With the boys…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Maestro_capture_2.jpg)

Entering "75", I guess his aircraft prior to crash in 1943 (before he got his first HSU)…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Maestro_capture_3.jpg)

This one is extremely rare:
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Maestro_capture_4.jpg)
Next to Yak-9 (I think -9U), while for a short period of time 5th GIAP had Yak's in April 1945. But, pilots were not very happy with Yak, so they demanded and got their old La-5's back. I believe that during this "Return of the La", some of the La-7's slipped through.
It is very possible that during this re-transition Popkov had a chance to fly La-7 and to score one (sole?) victory on it.

Also, to support some details regarding 5th GIAP (should I post a fresh thread on that subject?), here are some pics of another fine pilot from 5th GIAP, Georgiy Baevsky (Баевский Георгий Артурович):

Large part of the prop root is painted white…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/baevsky1.jpg)

Here, a smaller portion is painted…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/baevsky6.jpg)

Profile of "68" with lions head! Not sure about authors sources. December 1943…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/baevskyLa.jpg)

This Yak sports 19 victories, the total tally for Baevsky, April 1945…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/baevskyYak.jpg)

And a pic that now adds(?) to confusion…
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/baevsky5.jpg)

Comment says about decoration added toward the end of war, "tiger ripping apart a jackal with Hitler's head".

Well, if you mistranslate above sentence couple of times back-and forth, confuse what was "on the other side", confuse what was on the other side "of what" or "in regard to what", or whose head it was… Then you have "tigers head on one side and HSU on the other" or something similar.

BR

Really excellent! Thank you, Renato!

John

Hi Renato, :)
what an excellent research! Thank you for sharing it.
Do you think that the Yak-9 with the tiger is the same as n.36?
Massimo

Well, all sources claim so, but I was not able to find any more pics. I ran into those while searching for cross-references, and Baevsky's pics were kinda most interesting at the moment. Of interest is that spiner on all profiles of Yak-9U is NOT in white, nor any of them shows two stripes around fuselage as most of (popular) La-5 profiles for that period of time do show.

I've also found several profiles of "Veselye rebyata" a/c borts 12 and 14 with 3-4 white or red/white victory stars, white spinner, white tip of tail, but no pic.

Regarding 5th GIAP, I've noted that they had quite a mix of a/c and "gift" inscriptions. If I remember correctly, there is a pic od Baevsky in cockpit of La-5 (F?) where you can see that a/c was donated by some kolhoz...

BR

Hi Renato, :)
thank you for the clarifications. This Yak-9 would be amazing for a model.
Your hypothesis on the origin of the description of the lion's head is interesting, but I think that no any translating program can mistake a tiger with a lion. It would be necessary a wide sum of errors, both of animal recognition and of translation.
Massimo

You're in luck - the Amodel 1/72 Yak-9U kit includes decals for Baevsky's Yak. In fact, with this kit and the Amodel reissue of the KP La-5FN, which has decals for Baevsky's "White 68", you can make a small collection of this pilot's fighters - *both* of the aircraft shown in the profiles posted by Renato!? ;)

John

we have examined Renato's interesting topic and attempted to interpret Popkov's Stallion as a profile drawing.

here is the result:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4OveyRzFAIQ/TnzJRu00vTI/AAAAAAAAIgw/KSlQzkPetp0/s800/Popkov_01_La5FN.jpg)

any comments are welcome!

Hi Richard,
beautifu drawing indeed.
If I don't miss, some photos of the previous page of this topic suggested that the rudder was partly trimmed in white.
Regards
Massimo

Very nice!

Authentic AMT-11 and AMT-12 should be somewhat darker (when new).  Check "AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy" tread at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1151.0
I would try with AMT-11 as dark as your light gray and AMT-12 close (80-90%) to matt black.

IMHO, this is yet another case where profile artist started from poor quality photos and relied extensively on photo interpretation and their "artistic license".
Better quality photos, other photos of the same plane and photos of other planes from the same unit show only standard colours, standard camouflage scheme and standard markings.  No dark brown / green patches, no yellow bordered stars.

This and similar cases only confirm that modelers should try to understand those standards/rules if they care for authenticity.  "There were no rules, those were recommendations only" concept usually leads to mistakes.

Happy modeling,
KL

Looking at the tail, the dark grey band has a different height: on 01 it passes under the star, on the white-nosed plane it passes above. They are not the same plane.

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Popkov_La-5F.jpg)

This has the white nose, but its exhaust is clearly from an F

Who knows if this 75 is the above FN with white nose? I guess so. From the photos, it's impossible to say if it had white bands.

Regards
Massimo

Hello All,

this is my first post here - my interpretation of the Popkov's La-5FN. I read this discussion and AMT11/AM12 controversy for a while and this is the result. You can find the full article with the additional photos at http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/00.shtm

Best regards,
       66misos


(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/01.jpg)


(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/03.jpg)


(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/04.jpg)


(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/05.jpg)

Welcome to the site, and thank you for the links!  It's always nice to see a properly-painted VVS model.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Michal, and welcome to sovietwarplanes.com! Your La-5FN looks great - I think you nailed it pretty well with the camouflage colours and the angular camouflage pattern. Good work!

John

Hi Michal,
it's really a beautiful model. The way to compare the photos of the model to the real thing is impressive and convincing.
Regards
Massimo

Hi and welcome here, Michal!

Your La-5FN looks very good, I like it!

Pascal

Hi All,

thank you for your comments, I am happy you like my kit. I still "fight" with SMF - how to post picture to be shown as picture and not as url.
I just started building ICM Lagg-3 and Zvezda La-5, both in 1:48.

Regards,
     66misos

Hi Michal,
first, the photos have to be loaded on another site. Then you have to write the address of the photo, not of the page, on the post.
You can find the address of the uploaded image on the other site by

-selecting the photo on the other page and pushing 'properties',
-then copy the address from the properties,
-paste it inside the post of Sovietwarplanes,
-select it and push the second botton, the one with the picture.

 (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/12.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Michal,  :)
Thanks for the posting.  Your La-5 looks great.

It's interesting to compare "traditional western" (aka Pilavskii influence) and "new" darker shades camouflages

(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/16.jpg)(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal12/11601-11700/gal11633-La-5-Sekula/13.jpg)

to my eye, darker scheme makes much more sence for a plane flying at mid altitudes.  It's more effective, looks real.

Old lighter, "high contrast" interpretation is ineffective, demasking.  Plane looks like a clown...  :D

 

Hi Massimo,

thanks for a help. A corrected my first post - pictures are visible now  :D

Regards.
   66misos

Hi,
however, the real greys could have different contrast according to many factors.
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/948663nnbourget.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
we disscussed this many times:  you can not use one single photo to make conclusions about tens of thousands of planes made over two years and deployed in hundred of units.

Photo with no data, location etc. has relativelly small relevance.  You should find out as much info as possible about that photo before you throw it before the people.  To help you a little,
- photo was taken AFTER THE WAR in June or early July 1945
- can't remember for sure, but it was taken either when Normandie-Neman regiment arrived in Paris or in Stutgard on their way to France
- Yaks N-N brought to France were not all brand new - it was rather a collection of planes made at different times, some were in service with N-N for more than 6 months, some were received from other unit, few came from the storage
- planes were repainted in units.  Some N-N planes were renumbered in Stutgard.  What we see on the photo is more representative for repainting in units than for the factory camouflage.

HTH,KL

Hi 66misos!
The airleron deflection is incorrect :-\

(http://www.flugzeugforum.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=725109&d=1340821520/)

This is true, it should be asymmetrical. One up, the other one down, or both straight.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
I had a look again to this interesting topic.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/La5FNnr01Popkov5giap.jpg)

I think that the style of rails for the sliding hood makes the idea of La-5F more likely than of a La-5FN.
The early style of canopy, predominant on La-5F, had a slighly curved upper profile, and its rails at first raised a bit (but this part is hidden by the canopy itself), then were slightly descending, parallel and close to the window's edge, and had not a vertical slot at its end. Exactly what we see on this photo.
The later type of canopy was jettisonable; it had straight upper profile, and rails parallel to the lower frame of the sliding hood, far and not parallel from the frame of the rear canopy, and end with an upwards slot. It's not fully clear when it was introduced, but it's by far the dominant type on La-5FN.
Regards
Massimo

To tell the truth, I'm not longer sure that what we see is the early type of rails. Could also be that the sliding hood, and the upper part of the rail, were dismounted for some reasons.
Regards
Massimo

Hello,
Just a comment, I think that these two pictures are from the same aircraft...

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Renato71/Baevsky-Popkov-Eremenko.jpg)
(http://kp.ru/f/4/image/01/65/536501.jpg)

Looks like the dark color (AMT-12) on the tail, starts from the same place: at the end of the left branch of the star, apparently the same white on the rear edge of the rudder and probably the same trees in the background... Same helmet, glasses and clothes.
In this case: Early La-5FN (due the wiring of the antenne mast) "white 75" flown by V. Popkov during......... summer or falls 1943 ??????

Hi Steph,
good point. At least there is something sure enough for a profile on plane 75.
Regards
Massimo

Something like that ?
Or something that looks like this...

(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx84/le_steph40/La-5FN%20Popkov_zpsxiamzi4x.jpg)

Hi Massimo,

if you increase the light and you reduce the contrast, we can see the heat-protecting panel of a La-5FN

(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx84/le_steph40/Popkov%20V%20.I.%20-La5FN_zpsjq7xglur.jpg)

Regards
Steph

Hi Steph,
yes, I see it. Surely an FN, then.
Regards
Massimo

Hello,

I bought the book "The Aircraft of Soviet Aces" by Mikhail Bykov
(https://cdn.eksmo.ru/v2/ITD000000000817337/COVER/cover3d1__w340.jpg)
and I can confirm that the La-5fn "White 75" was flown by Popkov. This is originally the Evgeni Yaremenko aircraft during Spring and Summer 1944.
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/y/yaremenko.htm (http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/y/yaremenko.htm)

There is an inscription behind Popkov not visible on the photo: "Комсомолец Дальстроя" but visible on another photo shown in the book on page 85.

St?ph

Hi Steph,
the book looks very interesting.
An inscription on the side of plane n.75, you mean? Could you scan it when you find some time, please?
Regards
Massimo

Hello Steph,

Where can I find this book, in which shop?
Thank you.

Istv

That looks like an interesting book. I'll have to look for one.

Regards,

Jason

Hello,
Istvan, I bought the book in this shop in Russia
http://fiction.eksmo.ru/book/1650706-samolety-sovetskikh-asov-boevaya-raskraska-stalinskikh-sokolov/ (http://fiction.eksmo.ru/book/1650706-samolety-sovetskikh-asov-boevaya-raskraska-stalinskikh-sokolov/)

You can also try here with some extract of the book:
http://www.labirint.ru/books/540514/ (http://www.labirint.ru/books/540514/)

Some info here on the forum
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1863.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1863.0)

Massimo, yes,  the inscription is on the port side of the fuselage. No problem for a scan, but I don't know the law about posting an extract or a photo from a book...

Regards
St?ph