Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lavochkins => Topic started by: barneybolac on March 22, 2015, 01:54:26 AM



Title: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on March 22, 2015, 01:54:26 AM
Was looking for information about one of his La-5's & I came across these profiles of all the aircraft he flew.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la_5_orig_resize_zps5ujrcxen.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/la_5_orig_resize_zps5ujrcxen.jpg.html)

I am familiar with a few of these #31 & #85 were unknown to me.

Any one have other photos of these lesser known aircraft of his?

I found this one photo that I think maybe #85? Seems to have some kind of a possible stripe on the wing maybe a wear mark of some kind.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 22, 2015, 07:47:42 AM
Hi,
strange profiles, I doubt that 85 and 31 were painted that way. The pattern of 31 resembles that of grey-grey planes.
The plane on the photo is a La-5FN, according to the exhaust flap. The thing on the wingroot really resembles  a painted stripe, ruined by chalking.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: barneybolac on March 22, 2015, 08:20:44 AM
Hi,
strange profiles, I doubt that 85 and 31 were painted that way. The pattern of 31 resembles that of grey-grey planes.
The plane on the photo is a La-5FN, according to the exhaust flap. The thing on the wingroot really resembles  a painted stripe, ruined by chalking.
Regards
Massimo


Looking closer at the photo it has to be taken in 1944 he has two HSU medals on.
The #85 profile is from an earlier time 1943.


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: 66misos on March 22, 2015, 03:26:20 PM
Hi,
IMHO those profiles at least suspicious.
Look at this article about his "27" http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/index.php), especially section "Recollections: Sergey Kramarenko".
Moreover, author of profiles is A.Stankov, seems to be the same Stankov as commented here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1840.msg15344#msg15344 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1840.msg15344#msg15344).
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 22, 2015, 04:41:03 PM
Hi,
a comment from Timoshenko:
Quote
это рисовал А.Станков - он лично разговаривал с Кожедубом, если там и есть какие-то ошибки то думаю они не существенны.
A.Stankovdrew it  - he personally talked to Kozhedub, if there is any error,  I think that they are not significant.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: learstang on March 22, 2015, 05:19:10 PM
Those are some interesting profiles. "85" looks like it's painted in our old friend "Factory Green". And "31" - two-greens? Suspicious to say the least. Even if they were done from Kozhedub's recollections, memories without other evidence to back them up are unreliable; just ask any attorney. How long after the fact was he asked about these aircraft?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 22, 2015, 08:33:42 PM
To tell the truth, I don't trust too much the recalls relative to camo colors. Memoirs are good for things as the colors of spinners and numbers, made to be noticed, but the camo colors are made to pass unobserved.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: learstang on March 22, 2015, 11:42:29 PM
To tell the truth, I don't trust too much the recalls relative to camo colors. Memoirs are good for things as the colors of spinners and numbers, made to be noticed, but the camo colors are made to pass unobserved.
Regards
Massimo

Very good point, Massimo.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: 66misos on March 23, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Hi,
a comment from Timoshenko:
Quote
это рисовал А.Станков - он лично разговаривал с Кожедубом, если там и есть какие-то ошибки то думаю они не существенны.
A.Stankovdrew it  - he personally talked to Kozhedub, if there is any error,  I think that they are not significant.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I do not know what is and what is not significant error, but:
1.) both wartime profiles of La-7 "27" show white spinner. Compare it with this photo:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/KozhedubIN.jpg/220px-KozhedubIN.jpg) (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/stories/1017d1299757739t-misadventures-ivan-kozhedubs-famous-white-27-a-koz_white27-nose.jpg)
although, board number is not visible here, so...

2.) both wartime profiles of La-7 "27" are decorated. This is from Kramarenko's recollections from the link I posted above:
"In 1997 a series of interviews with S.M. Kramarenko were published in Czech magazine Aero Plastic Kit Review, starting it seems with issue no.64. The interviewer, S. Makarovich, asked Kramarenko specifically about service in the 176 GAIP, and Kozhedub's aircraft, which the latter claims to have piloted after Kozhedub left the Regiment. The following excerpts are from Kramarenko's answers, and were kindly provided and translated by Michal Sekula.
"Sometime during preparation of the 'Carpathian-Visla' Operation (Nov-Dec 1944) the 176 GIAP received new La-7 fighter planes...."
If this is so, then it is indeed very strong evidence in favour of the single-colour interpretation of "White 27". This testimony may explain just why so many 176 GIAP La-7s are finished in this way.
"(Following a mission on 11 Feb/45) ...Kozedub?s plane was slightly damaged ? two hits to the fuselage and one hit to the tail."
If this damage were notable, could it explain some kind of repainting? Could it explain the repainting below the cockpit that might appear on the port fuselage? Could it explain a reason for adding AMT-12 in a two-tone application?
Kramarenko mentions further that he received Kozhedub's "White 27" after the Deputy Commander was ordered to return to Moscow for the May Day celebrations. He states that he piloted this aircraft until the end of the War, and that it carried no "...small 'kill' stars nor three Hero of the Soviet Union 'Gold Medals' on the side....", which he asserts were painted later at the Frunze Academy.
"

3.) La-5F - color/shade of the board no. "14" does not differ from the star white outline. Or, at least it is not reflective like silver "14" in the profile:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1072212) (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/90/77/33/907733dd0892e6ffa2737e5f85cf2eb7.jpg)
(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/93/3f6eafb62986e0915a2cb1279b0a0b93.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 23, 2015, 02:26:29 PM
Hi Misos,
of course, the spinner on the operative plane was red. White, if any, could be some repainting before the war after the plane became an icon.
I remember the photo from the other side, with the emblem on a dark rectangle. My idea is that the plane was camouflaged as all, it was faded at the date of that photo session, and the photographer understood that the emblem would have been nearly unvisible on the original background, so he asked to paint a contrasting background. I can't say the date of the photo session.
About the photo of 14, I would say that the number is somewhat darker than the star, I checked with the instruments of Photoshop confirming this. But it doesn't seem silver. I can't say if it's a darker white (seems strange, if both numbers and stars were added in factory) or yellow or what else.
Perhaps the plane was born with a plain red star and the white outline is a later addition... but it looks too accurate. Perhaps it was accurately repainted for the photo session.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 23, 2015, 02:30:57 PM
Hi, Vitaliy has asked to Stankov, that confirms a silver number on that plane.
Well, if it was not silver the day of the photo, maybe it was repainted later? Who knows? Certaily it didn't come out from the factory in silver.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: 66misos on March 23, 2015, 05:08:03 PM
Hi Massimo,
after looking at photos again and again, yes, on that last photo color of "27" is slightly different/darker than white outline of the star. ???

Here I found another photo:
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-2.jpg)
Seems to be the same plane like this one (in the different time) - it is La-7, upper part of the red triangle is visible on the engine cowling and metal plate has similarly dirty edges on the both photos:
(http://sammler.ru/uploads/post-16-1275901676.jpg)

...I remember the photo from the other side, with the emblem on a dark rectangle...
I never saw such picture, event on the Russian pages. Even old afterwar reconstruction in Monino did not have any emblem. I wonder if it was authentic.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 23, 2015, 09:41:03 PM
Hi, it was on the article of EP on Kozedub's plane. It resembled the photo below, perhaps it was the same but I think to remember that it showed a small piece of the tail.
Regards
Massimo


Title: RE: Ivan Kozhedub Lavochkins
Post by: 66misos on March 25, 2015, 10:40:45 AM
Hi,
I have found this photo at http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft19957.htm (http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft19957.htm)
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)
Description uder photo:
"A little-known photograph from the personal archive of triple Hero of the Soviet Union Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub."

If Kozhedub is that guy in the middle, having "only" 2 HSU Gold medals, then photo should have been taken before August 18, 1945, when he received the 3rd HSU order, but apparently after the WWII.

Well-known photo but in much better quality:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2012-08/o2-2.jpg)
Board number "27" is apparently outlined.

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV12-4/17-2.jpg)
Description:
"La-7 fighter from 176 giap ??? at the airfield in Germany. The second from the right is armed with three B-20 guns."
Note the second from the left - it looks like single color (AMT-11) painting on the upper surfaces.

Hi Barneybolac,
may be it would be worth to rename this thread to "Ivan Kozhedub Lavochkins" or "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7" as it covers broader area than only La-5.

Regards,
   66misos

PS: Massimo, your memory is good. ;)


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 25, 2015, 05:05:37 PM
Hi Misos, hi all,
interesting images, so the plane was painted as described by the decals sheet when in Frunze academy. It's strange that they left the plane to another pilot for months, then took it, repainted it and venerated it as an icon.  Couldn't it be that a second plane '27' was painted to represent the original one?

The photo of planes of 176 giap is particularly interesting. Now that I see, the color of the landing gear doors of n.21 is much darker than on other planes, and seems to fit the uppersurfaces. Couldn'it be that was painted AMT-11 overall? The same can be suspected for the third plane.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: 66misos on March 25, 2015, 06:25:59 PM
Hi Massimo,
...Couldn't it be that a second plane '27' was painted to represent the original one?...
It is quite possible, but I do not have info about that.

Ragarding photo of planes from 176 GIAP I am confused by missing red front engine covling and red triandle there.
Kozedub's La-7 had it as well as red triangles are painted on the profiles of the other planes from 176 giap:

S.M. Kramarenko
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/korea/kramarn1.jpg)

A.S. Kumanichkin
(http://www.konkurs.senat.org/article/kumanichkin4.gif)
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/335/pics/1_32.jpg)
(http://mail.airpages.ru/img/ru/la7_2.jpg)

P.S.Chupikov, commander of 176 giap:
(http://www.peoples.ru/military/aviation/kozhedub/kozhedub-12042007124503D1U.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all11/chupikv2.jpg)

and link to dark "06" from the "group photo" on the previous page:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1608.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1608.0)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/La-7-06_zps92de5780.jpg)

Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 25, 2015, 10:10:34 PM
Hi Misos,
on the photo, the tail of 18 doesn't seem exactly as on the drawing, but as on plane 25.
I wonder if there is any evidence that the plane of Chupikov was n.16. The profile looks by EP, am I wrong?
About plane 06, I've written that it could have had a red spinner, but now I see a sample of red on the star of the plane on the background, and it doesn't seem the same shade. So, it had to be green or grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Ivan Kozhedub La-5's.
Post by: barneybolac on March 26, 2015, 10:10:31 PM
Hi Misos,
of course, the spinner on the operative plane was red. White, if any, could be some repainting before the war after the plane became an icon.
I remember the photo from the other side, with the emblem on a dark rectangle. My idea is that the plane was camouflaged as all, it was faded at the date of that photo session, and the photographer understood that the emblem would have been nearly unvisible on the original background, so he asked to paint a contrasting background. I can't say the date of the photo session.
About the photo of 14, I would say that the number is somewhat darker than the star, I checked with the instruments of Photoshop confirming this. But it doesn't seem silver. I can't say if it's a darker white (seems strange, if both numbers and stars were added in factory) or yellow or what else.
Perhaps the plane was born with a plain red star and the white outline is a later addition... but it looks too accurate. Perhaps it was accurately repainted for the photo session.
Regards
Massimo


Looks like the #14 aircraft had a new owner in Cyril A Yevstigneev as well as a new paint job.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fairaces.narod.ru%2Fall1%2Fevstign.htm&edit-text=

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsoviet-aces-1936-53.ru%2Fabc%2Fe%2Fevstignv.htm&edit-text=

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign3_zpspl7ghcqn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign3_zpspl7ghcqn.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign8_zpss0jl84ka.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign8_zpss0jl84ka.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2%201_zpsezyc2p93.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2%201_zpsezyc2p93.jpg.html)

The  profile misses the badge under the canopy I think due to the glare in the 1st photo. I did find a photo that shows the badge as well as all the text across it seen below.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2_zpstgqvafbd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2_zpstgqvafbd.jpg.html)



(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/Untitled%20la-14_zpsftxhyq9n.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/Untitled%20la-14_zpsftxhyq9n.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 27, 2015, 07:10:43 AM
Hi Rodney,
very interesting indeed.
On the page about Yestigneev there is a photo, a profile and text about another of his planes:
Quote
In early March 1944, at the request of the regimental commander, he went on an exceptional risk, try out "fitness for work" muddy airfield. At start of his fighter, almost fly into a ravine, stood on end, wheels bogged down in the mud. A month later of - the negligence of the representative of the air army, messed up the oxygen cylinder with air, starting with a balloon pump exploded. Evstigneeva burned face and thrown out of the cab, and the car, speeding up the running, ran on the airfield, then abruptly turned and stopped. Yevstigneev insisted on repairing its "war horse", and now his left side was covered with intricate camouflage that hid patches, which were deposited black figures "95" with red trim.

On this machine, he had to fight at Jassy. In early April, Chisinau over the airfield, at low altitude, he shot down 4-engined FW-200 "Condor". But this "curiosity" was not officially recorded on his battle score. In 27 sorties at Jassy and 13 air battles Yevstigneev senior lieutenant shot down 7 enemy planes.

Quote
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign12.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign1.jpg)
Fighter La-5FN Captain KA Evstigneeva. 178th GvIAP, autumn 1944.
Well, the photo and text speak of plane 95, but the profile shows it as 96. I wonder how this can be explained.
The photo itself looks unconvincing. The plane looks more a La-7 than a La-5FN. Could it be the photo of another plane, maybe of 1945, that had in common with the one of Yestigneev the number and the position only?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 27, 2015, 10:28:42 AM
About plane 14: this time, all the marks look shining to my eye. The star outline, the slogan, the number and the chevron. They could be silver. The slogan had (probably) the same color of the star outline, and is contoured.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on March 27, 2015, 05:21:48 PM
That aeroplane "95" does appear to be an La-7 - it doesn't seem to have the under cowling radiator. Regarding "14", I agree that the chevron, fuselage star outline, and slogan look like they might be silver, but the number looks different, like it might still be white.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on March 27, 2015, 08:16:11 PM
Hi,
I agree with Jason, at least here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign8_zpss0jl84ka.jpg)
the chevron, fuselage star outline, and slogan look like they might be one color (silver?, yellow?), but the number "14" looks brighter (white?).
Unfortunately the photo is too grainy - I am not sure whether number is outlined - at least part of "1" over AMT-7 looks like outlined.

Here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign3_zpspl7ghcqn.jpg)
front part of the engine cowling and probably also spinner are brighter than fuselage and red star (white?, light blue?...)

The badge painted bellow the windshield/cockpit:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2%201_zpsezyc2p93.jpg)
and here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/Untitled%20la-14_zpsftxhyq9n.jpg)
does not look very much like Guard emblem (Gvardia):
(http://www.ckp-vmf.ru/images/gv_1.png)
like painted here:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign1.jpg)
If yes, then gold/yellow leaves are much darker than color of slogan, e.g. slogan would not be yellow.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 27, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
Hi,
maybe the leaves were painted green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on March 27, 2015, 10:51:10 PM

Here:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign3_zpspl7ghcqn.jpg)
front part of the engine cowling and probably also spinner are brighter than fuselage and red star (white?, light blue?...)



Regards,
   66misos

Look at the back side of the propeller blades they are not painted black.
They seem to be the same colour as the cowling & spinner


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on March 28, 2015, 06:30:56 AM
Hi Rodney,
very interesting indeed.
On the page about Yestigneev there is a photo, a profile and text about another of his planes:
Quote
In early March 1944, at the request of the regimental commander, he went on an exceptional risk, try out "fitness for work" muddy airfield. At start of his fighter, almost fly into a ravine, stood on end, wheels bogged down in the mud. A month later of - the negligence of the representative of the air army, messed up the oxygen cylinder with air, starting with a balloon pump exploded. Evstigneeva burned face and thrown out of the cab, and the car, speeding up the running, ran on the airfield, then abruptly turned and stopped. Yevstigneev insisted on repairing its "war horse", and now his left side was covered with intricate camouflage that hid patches, which were deposited black figures "95" with red trim.

On this machine, he had to fight at Jassy. In early April, Chisinau over the airfield, at low altitude, he shot down 4-engined FW-200 "Condor". But this "curiosity" was not officially recorded on his battle score. In 27 sorties at Jassy and 13 air battles Yevstigneev senior lieutenant shot down 7 enemy planes.

Quote
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign12.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign1.jpg)
Fighter La-5FN Captain KA Evstigneeva. 178th GvIAP, autumn 1944.
Well, the photo and text speak of plane 95, but the profile shows it as 96. I wonder how this can be explained.
The photo itself looks unconvincing. The plane looks more a La-7 than a La-5FN. Could it be the photo of another plane, maybe of 1945, that had in common with the one of Yestigneev the number and the position only?
Regards
Massimo


Possibly some confusion with the Google translation not getting what it says in Russian quite right?


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on March 28, 2015, 06:38:38 AM
There is a couple of other profiles of this aircraft I found.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la%20las%20a_zps0an5slqw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/la%20las%20a_zps0an5slqw.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/1_46_b1_zpsjjynt2pq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/1_46_b1_zpsjjynt2pq.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 28, 2015, 06:51:29 AM
Hi,
the colors of the nose are rather discordant. A photo seems to show a light ring, as on the profile of Bykov. I wonder if there is any written document on the real color.
Note the light and matt color of prop blades too on the photo.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on March 28, 2015, 07:35:58 PM
Hi,
this profile with bright (light blue) front of the engine cowling:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign2_zpstgqvafbd.jpg)
is draw by M.N.Orlov, not Bykov.
Guard emblem is missing under the canopy.
IMHO lighter color on the propeller blades  is matt dust and/or the same color as on the front engine cowling (and spinner) - they simply did not mask propeller blades before spraying that light color:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign3_zpspl7ghcqn.jpg)

Another photo of the La-7 from 176 giap from February 1945 found at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Archive/kozhedub%20la-7/white27.html (http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Archive/kozhedub%20la-7/white27.html)
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Archive/kozhedub%20la-7/176GvIAP-la7.jpg)
Note single color appearance on the upper surfaces on all aircraft.
Regrads,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 28, 2015, 08:44:44 PM
Hi Misos
Quote
the same color as on the front engine cowling (and spinner) - they simply did not mask propeller blades before spraying that light color:
I agree on the same color, but note that the rear of the blade is relatively light up to its tip.
Quote
Another photo of the La-7 from 176 giap from February 1945 found at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Archive/kozhedub%20la-7/white27.html
Can resemble as the tail up plane n.95. Perhaps green with red nose?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 05, 2015, 09:59:08 AM
Hi,
I'm trying to make some profiles, but I am confused. Please help me to make some order:
Kozedub's plane n.14 was a La-5F, with the oblique slogan on its right side and another, oblique too, on its left side.
Estigneev's plane n.14  was a La-5FN, not the same plane them, with a chevron and an inscription on its left side, a guards badge, possibly a light blue nose. Are there photos showing the right side of the plane?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on April 05, 2015, 05:26:07 PM
I have not found a photo of the right side of that plane.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 05, 2015, 08:38:14 PM
Hi,
here is a very high resolution scan of the instructions sheet of the first post (thanks to Vitaliy).
http://top-50.ru/posts/396006-c6ad32f5260e27780a6b41bcd0798cb9 (http://top-50.ru/posts/396006-c6ad32f5260e27780a6b41bcd0798cb9)
Here we can see the whole slogan. I hope that it was photographed somewhere.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 06, 2015, 08:22:24 AM
Hi,
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg)

I've to correct myself... these are the exhaust flaps of a La-7.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 06, 2015, 07:21:43 PM
Hi Massimo,
this picture is really interesting:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub10_zps9fg8jzew.jpg)
Red "triangel" has no white outline and seems not to have stright lines.
Propeller spinner seems to be lighter than red nose.
Plane in the background (from the same unit?) has in opposite dark (=red?) spinner but no red paint on the engine cowling and no white part on the tail.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 06, 2015, 10:38:10 PM
Hi Misos,
really interesting. Thank you very much.
I've seen a profile somewhere... maybe on this topic?
Is this plane of the same unit of Kozedub?
About the spinner: it's lighter and matt, I think that it's of the original grey, and only the cowling was painted red.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 07, 2015, 04:27:28 AM
"White 16" on page two of this topic has a triangle like the nearest aeroplane in this photograph. However, that profile is of an La-7, whilst this is clearly an La-5FN.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2015, 09:07:38 AM
Hi Jason, this is right.
Returning on this photo, the plane on the background has an interesting characteristic: the 0 on its side is partially hidden by some repainting, resembling an U. Maybe this worths a profile...
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 07, 2015, 09:43:58 AM
Hi,
IMHO the aircraft on the photo above is "92" from the profiles painting on the page 1, although photo does not show whole aircraft. But it is also " FN" and AMT-12 bellow cockpit connect to the metal plate behind the exhaust in the same way.
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2015, 10:54:35 AM
Hi Misos, it can be... is it known that this was Kozhedub's plane?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2015, 11:26:25 AM
Hi,
look at this plane n.14. Seems a La-5F. Its slogan isn't the same of Kozhedub's plane.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/la5f/14slogan.jpg)
Could it be the plane of Yestigneev?  On the photos, it has a FN engine, but I can't see the triangular plates of FN.  Could it be the same plane of Kozhedub after having been re-engined?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 07, 2015, 06:24:39 PM
Hi Jason, this is right.
Returning on this photo, the plane on the background has an interesting characteristic: the 0 on its side is partially hidden by some repainting, resembling an U. Maybe this worths a profile...
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, if you think you can get enough from the photograph, it would make an interesting profile. That "O/U" is rather strange. 66misos, you are correct that the La-5 number "14" does not have the triangular exhaust shielding like an La-5FN. But it was re-fitted with the ASh-82FN. Interesting.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 07, 2015, 06:42:36 PM
Hi,
Slogan on "14" above is "...jazz-orchestra ...tesova".
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2015, 07:09:33 PM
Hi Misos,
another n.14 with a slogan? Is it a sort of good luck number?
Anyway, I think that only the first character is hidden, it looks capital.
Hi Jason,
I've already made a profile. It's an easy work.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on April 07, 2015, 09:50:32 PM
Hi,
look at this plane n.14. Seems a La-5F. Its slogan isn't the same of Kozhedub's plane.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/la5f/14slogan.jpg)
Could it be the plane of Yestigneev?  On the photos, it has a FN engine, but I can't see the triangular plates of FN.  Could it be the same plane of Kozhedub after having been re-engined?
Regards
Massimo

There is two aircraft with the same sponsor #12 & #14.

La-5F "Veselye Rebjata"

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/336/1/3



Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 08, 2015, 06:16:00 AM
Hi Rodney,
thank you, there is a good photo file of both 12 and 14. The only profiles with photos on that page.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on April 08, 2015, 08:05:59 AM
Hi Rodney,
thank you, there is a good photo file of both 12 and 14. The only profiles with photos on that page.
Regards
Massimo

Few other photos of the left side of these aircraft.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/utesov_zpsht6peb8a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/utesov_zpsht6peb8a.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/1011485-doc2fb_image_0200008B_zpscoloopjc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/1011485-doc2fb_image_0200008B_zpscoloopjc.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/1619275_1000_zpsahtflmcx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/1619275_1000_zpsahtflmcx.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 08, 2015, 08:11:05 AM
Very good, thank you.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on April 08, 2015, 11:47:07 PM
Found this text under the photo I posted before thought maybe of interest.

http://coollib.com/b/281469/read

"Major Ivan Kozhedub, in August 1944, ACS recently was awarded a second "Gold Star". In the background - a brand new La-7 on which Kozhedub flew to the front, in the 176th GIAP."

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 09, 2015, 07:04:22 AM
Hi,
interesting. But the plane of the photo doesn't seem so new.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 09, 2015, 09:13:36 AM
Hi,
There are 3 vent openings close to the right side of the metal plate behind exhaust on the photo above.

La-7 from Monino - only 1 opening:
(http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2004_files/day02_34.jpg)

La-7 from Kbely:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Lavochkin_La-7_77_white_%288238008376%29.jpg/1599px-Lavochkin_La-7_77_white_%288238008376%29.jpg)

Another La-7:
(http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/VVS1/La7-12.jpg)

(http://www.sammler.ru/uploads/post-16-1275901676.jpg)

Regards,
66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 09, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
Hi Misos,
this is true. But the flap resembles that of a La-7. What is this plane, in your opinion?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 09, 2015, 09:28:23 PM
Hi,
I've drawn a profile of n.92. The strangest characteristic is the presence of a landing light on the wing, that is absolutely non standard for Lavochkins.
Besides, the red paint of the nose is very worn and chipped. It could be that the spinner was red, but lost part of its paint.  I've no idea of the reason of such a bad adherence of the paint.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 11, 2015, 01:58:31 PM
Hi,
please note the scarcely visible discontinuity in color of the cowling- Probably the front of the ring was painted glossy red.
Regards
Massimo

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/1011485-doc2fb_image_0200008B_zpscoloopjc.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 11, 2015, 05:44:05 PM
Hi Massimo,
here is a better version of the photo above:
(http://yarovenkosp.ucoz.ru/_pu/1/70686554.jpg)
No repainting on the nose is visible.
Full slogan is: "Веселые ребята" "От джаз оркестра Л. Утесова", e.g. "Veselye rebjata" "Ot jazz-orchestra L. Utesova".
Leonid Utesov is standing on the wing with some officer.

Here are two profiles:
Black-green version:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/la5_utysov.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u182/periskop_su/History/la5_masterkov.jpg)

Grey-grey version:
(http://grad.j100.ru/bitrix/components/bitrix/forum.interface/show_file.php?fid=687055)

However, planes did not have white nose like on the second profile, slogan is not outlined etc.:
(http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/ilin_ng/50.jpg)

Note (3) victory stars behind the cockpit:
(http://coollib.com/i/28/269528/i_075.png)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 11, 2015, 09:21:49 PM
Hi Misos,
thank you for the images and notes.
I agree, no repainting is visible here.
I can't distinguish the camouflage; anyway I think that it's grey-grey because the white outlines on the stars of Lavochkin were introduced somewhat after the new grey-grey camouflage. Besides, the pattern visible on theblack-green profiles has the pattern of grey-grey planes (but this is not a proof, if we can't see it on photos).
I wonder where the author of the grey-grey profile has found the white nose and the red part of the inscription. Available photos don't show such things.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 13, 2015, 05:26:27 PM
(http://coollib.com/i/28/269528/i_075.png)
Hi,
seems that this photo was taken when the plane was already operative by time. We see not only the victory stars, but repaintings with the camo arriving very down on the fuselage. It could have had other markings too.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/1011485-doc2fb_image_0200008B_zpscoloopjc.jpg)
This photo shows another officer and a glossy (or wet) finish, seems taken in another occasion and perhaps of another plane. Perhaps this orchestra donated planes other than n.12 and 14.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: FPSOlkor on April 16, 2015, 05:41:00 PM
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii94/FPSOlkor/aviaphotos/CIMG2683.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 16, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Hi Oleg,
beautiful image indeed.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 16, 2015, 06:23:55 PM
Beautiful indeed! When was that taken?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 17, 2015, 08:49:01 AM
Hi,
Nice picture. However, I wonder what time period should represent that aircraft - stars on the upper wings, yellow tips on propeller blades, three HSU stars (3rd one is from August '45), (green /yellow) leaves of different shape in different position, outlined victory starlets and no dark area under them ???:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)
Almost like What-if camo. Or if gray is changed to green than it would look like standard after-the-war camo of late fourthies.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 17, 2015, 09:09:52 AM
Hi Misos, it looks idealized. It can resemble to how it was painted at the Frunze academy. The most inaccurate parts are the stars above the wings, that were not used in immediate postwar.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Sekunde on April 25, 2015, 06:50:39 PM
This is the La-7 from Ivan Kozhedub in the first months of the year 1945, how I would say it.

I think there will be no kill markings at all, these were added later, possible after the war.

I made this model with parts from the 1:72 Eduard kit and my own Steelwork resin parts: fuselage, spinner, oilcooler and cabine parts (SA7214), wheels (SW7208) and etch inner landing gear cover (SA7215).

For a very good La-7 these kits parts from Eduard should be altered. The big faults are at the cowling, spinner and the wings. But the wings need only some sanding at the tips.

I used selfmixed colours from Vallejo for the paintjob.

Sekunde
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/sekunde2/La-7%20SchWAK/900%20la7s-1_zpsceikyp6s.jpg)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/sekunde2/La-7%20SchWAK/900%20la7s-2_zpsizornjiy.jpg)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/sekunde2/La-7%20SchWAK/900%20la7s-4_zpsaikmi1st.jpg)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/sekunde2/La-7%20SchWAK/900%20la7s-6_zps0bu5khys.jpg)
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/sekunde2/La-7%20SchWAK/900%20la7s-5_zps5nwssi7r.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 25, 2015, 08:04:29 PM
Excellent job on the La-7! It's actually nice to see it without all the markings you normally see on Kozhedub's La-7.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2015, 07:29:05 AM
Very good model on all the respects. Shape, details and painting are very convincing.
I would know more on your self produced pieces.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Sekunde on April 26, 2015, 02:24:56 PM
Thank you for your comments Jason and Massimo!

There were many small alternations but at the end there were a visible difference. I made the work at the resin parts for some years. Built first the 3 gun La-7 and La-7 R-2 in 2010.

In my little webshop were some pics ot the parts for both versions, the La-7 R-2 and other.

http://shop.strato.de/epages/61299018.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61299018/Categories (http://shop.strato.de/epages/61299018.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61299018/Categories)

I have also a gallery with more 1:72 models not only VVS from me.

www.steelwork-models.de (http://www.steelwork-models.de)

Sekunde


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 26, 2015, 05:57:20 PM
Looks like you have some nice items on your site! I might have to pick up that La-7 3x B-20 correction set. I also like the Spanish Civil War items (I've always been interested in the SCW).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on April 27, 2015, 07:35:17 PM
Hi Sekunde,
really very nice build! I like this wartime painting without all those decorations. I reminds me my one I build years ago in 1/48 from HobbyBoss, but unfortunately not such nice like this your one ;-)
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: FPSOlkor on April 30, 2015, 01:42:48 PM
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii94/FPSOlkor/IMAGE0400.jpg)

Dare you to make this!


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: learstang on April 30, 2015, 05:46:20 PM
Looks like the engine overheated (which they tended to do on the Lavochkins) and blistered the paint.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 30, 2015, 10:20:14 PM
Interesting, but what type is this? The side plate has an unusual look. The canopy seems the old non-jettisonable type of early La-5F.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on May 30, 2015, 12:00:39 PM
Hi,
I just browsed photos about Kozhedub and here is several thoughts.

Kozhedub was awarded with his first HSU on February 4, 1044 in 240 iap.
On may 1944 Kozhedub having already 38 victories received La-5F from kolochoznik V.V. Konev.
(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/93/3f6eafb62986e0915a2cb1279b0a0b93.jpg)

This photo of La-5FN is probably from winter 1943/44:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub10_zps9fg8jzew.jpg)
red spinner and red triangle without white outline. Sides of the triangle seems to be curved to the same direction (upwards), so IMHO it caused by shape of the cowling. Note "La-5FN" logo in the red triangle.

At the end of June 1944 Kozhedub was transfered from 240 iap to 176 giap. 176 giap received new La-7s on August 1944.
Kozhedub was awarded with the second HSU on August 19, 1944. On this photo he has still one HSU Gold Star, so it shoud be around or before August 19, 1944.
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-2.jpg)
(His) La-7 in the background has red spinner and red triangle on the engine cowling without white outline.

Kozhedub with already 2 HSU gold medals in front of older La-5FN probably already in 176 giap - note 3 vent openings on the metal plate and wide exhaust stains:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg)

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg16621#msg16621 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg16621#msg16621):
In 1997 a series of interviews with S.M. Kramarenko were published in Czech magazine Aero Plastic Kit Review, starting it seems with issue no.64. The interviewer, S. Makarovich, asked Kramarenko specifically about service in the 176 GAIP, and Kozhedub's aircraft, which the latter claims to have piloted after Kozhedub left the Regiment. The following excerpts are from Kramarenko's answers:
"Sometime during preparation of the 'Carpathian-Visla' Operation (Nov-Dec 1944) the 176 GIAP received new La-7 fighter planes...."
If this is so, then it is indeed very strong evidence in favour of the single-colour interpretation of "White 27". This testimony may explain just why so many 176 GIAP La-7s are finished in this way.
"(Following a mission on 11 Feb/45) ...Kozedub?s plane was slightly damaged ? two hits to the fuselage and one hit to the tail."

If this damage were notable, could it explain some kind of repainting? Could it explain the repainting below the cockpit that might appear on the port fuselage? Could it explain a reason for adding AMT-12 in a two-tone application?

Hard to date this photo, but La-7 behind Kozhedub has again red spinner and red triangle on the engine cowling without white outline.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/KozhedubIN.jpg/220px-KozhedubIN.jpg)

However, here is red spinner and red triangle already with white outline. White line seems to be curved only by shape of the cowling from this view:
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/stories/1017d1299757739t-misadventures-ivan-kozhedubs-famous-white-27-a-koz_white27-nose.jpg)

Kramarenko received Kozhedub's "White 27" after the Deputy Commander was ordered to return to Moscow for the May Day celebrations. He states that he piloted this aircraft until the end of the War, and that it carried no "...small 'kill' stars nor three Hero of the Soviet Union 'Gold Medals' on the side....", which he asserts were painted later at the Frunze Academy.

So these photos were taken when Kozhedub returned to the 176 giap (after WWII ended). He had two HSU Gold medals and closed number of victories, therefore layout of the victory stars is in regullar symetrical pattern. So technically this is already after-the-War decoration made in the field conditions.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2012-08/o2-2.jpg)

And finally, this photo of exhibited La-7 was taken shortly after the was (in Moscov). Aircraft has a full set of decoration, red triangle with straight white outline and white spinner.
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)
Kozhedub (in the middle) has still "only" two HSU Gold medals.

Kozhedub was awarded with his 3rd HSU Gold Medals after the WWII, on August 18, 1945. Only then was his final score oficially closed.

Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 30, 2015, 03:37:33 PM
Hi Misos,
your chronology is extremely interesting. You made an huge work in reordering images and known facts.
I would understand better some points:

Quote
On may 1944 Kozhedub having already 38 victories received La-5F from kolochoznik V.V. Konev.

Quote
This photo of La-5FN is probably from winter 1943/44:

If he already had a La-5FN, a La-5F as a gift hadn't to be very welcome. At this point, I wonder if it was still in 240 iap (in this case, the triangle was an individual mark) or to 176 giap (those unit's mark was the triangle). I wonder when the triangle started to be the mark of the unit.

Quote
Sides of the triangle seems to be curved to the same direction (upwards), so IMHO it caused by shape of the cowling.
The lower side is concave; should it be straight, it should appear convex, as the trasversal fasteners. The upper side is not well visible, it looks chipped.

Quote
Kozhedub with already 2 HSU gold medals in front of older La-5FN probably already in 176 giap - note 3 vent openings on the metal plate and wide exhaust stains:

This looks a La-7, look at the flap over the exhaust pipes. Some La-7 had 3 slots as La-5FN. It's not the same plane of following images, anyway.

Quote
176 giap received new La-7s on August 1944.
Quote
"Sometime during preparation of the 'Carpathian-Visla' Operation (Nov-Dec 1944) the 176 GIAP received new La-7 fighter planes...."
Seems discordant.

Quote
However, here is red spinner and red triangle already with white outline. White line seems to be curved only by shape of the cowling from this view:
The  concavity seems real, at least in the brief part that we see. Should it be an effect of the curvature of the cowling, it should be on the other side as the fasteners.
It's unclear if the direction of the white outline continue to change outside the view, if it was intentional or a banal error in masking.

Quote
So these photos were taken when Kozhedub returned to the 176 giap (after WWII ended). He had two HSU Gold medals and closed number of victories, therefore layout of the victory stars is in regullar symetrical pattern. So technically this is already after-the-War decoration made in the field conditions.
Very likely . I suppose it still had a red spinner. I wonder about the guards emblem reported by Stankov.

Quote
And finally, this photo of exhibited La-7 was taken shortly after the was (in Moscov). Aircraft has a full set of decoration, red triangle with straight white outline and white spinner.
Comparing the triangle with a ruler, the first part follows the curvature of the cowling so it was probably straight, but the last part seems to have a slight curvature downwards.
What are the awards? Guards, Red banner, Kutuzov and Nevskiy I think.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on May 30, 2015, 07:24:20 PM
Hi Massimo,
here is foto of Aleluchin's La-7 and it has 3 vent openings on the metal plate:
(https://reibert.info/attachments/gss-a-aleluhin-na-la7-jpg.3492928/)
and another one I found in MBI book Lavochkin La-7.

So yes, this also can be La-7:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg)

The date of "176 giap received new La-7s on August 1944." is before date "Sometime during preparation of the 'Carpathian-Visla' Operation (Nov-Dec 1944) the 176 GIAP received new La-7 fighter planes....", although a bit earlier. IMHO, it could be.

When compared this red triangle with white outline:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

with this red triangle without white outline:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub10_zps9fg8jzew.jpg)
then, yes, this second one really looks concave.
Interestingly, La-5FN (probably from the same unit) in the background does not have either red front part of cowling or red triangle. Only dark (red?) spinner.

Note two metal stripes around the cowling are always unpainted, only NMF.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 30, 2015, 10:15:19 PM
Hi Misos,
the photo of the plane of Alehuhin is new to me, thank you for having posted it.
I wonder if the number of slots was reduced with the serie progression, or was typical of each factory.
Thinking again to the photos of Kozhedub's La-7, all the noses are shown from the right side, apart the last one.  If there was something interesting on the right side only, i think that the photographer would have tried to take the pilot with the plane seen from the left. If it's not so, it's likely that there was not any guards emblem on the left of the nose. So I'll remove it from my profile.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 02, 2015, 12:17:20 PM
Hi all,

I want to add my little contribution to this very interesting topic.

Here two photos from the book "Lavockin La-7" by M.Vestsik:

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20b.jpg)
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/img054.jpg)

1- in the first photo Kozhedub is wearing only one Star for Hero of Soviet Union, so the photo was taken some times before 18 August '44. It seems that all red triangle on the nose, during war time, had curved lines. The only example with straight lines was Kozhedub's La-7 post war.

2- if caption on photo 2 is confirmed, some time before the end of the war 176.GIAP changed the nose tactical markings from red triangle to a whole red cowling. But more noteworthy is the absence of white rudder.
As far as I have seen in wartime photos about 176GIAP no one shows La-7 with partly white rudder; the only example is again Kozhedub's La-7 post war.

In my opinion soon after the end of the war Kozhedub's famous La-7 "27" was heavily retouched:

1- added kill marks and Golden stars under the cockpit;
2- repainted red triangles (with straight lines) on the cowling;
3- added insignia(s) on the port side of cowling;
4- added border (azure?) to number "27";
5- repainted spinner and rudder in White.

Just my opinion of course, hoping to be disproved by photographic evidences  :)

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 02, 2015, 04:35:37 PM
Hi Flavio,
thank you for your interesting suggestions.
About the triangle, you are right about two examples with surely curved lines.
For the plane of Kozhedub, I've the impression that the shape could be straight for the first 23 of its length, then becomes shightly concave close to the rear angle. I can't exclude that the shape was preserved under the additional marks made in Frunze acanemy. Looking at the rear part of the fuselage in the latter photo, I suppose that the original camo was still preserved at that date (but i can't be sure).
About the blue outline, it seems to have been a factory standard: the only known numbers on two recovered wrecks of La-5 and 7 have blue outlines. Eventually, red outlines or no outlines could more likely be due to repaintings.
Your note about the white triangle on the tail is particularly interesting. It was there at the date of the famous photo with the medals and starlets, but I can't say before.
Anyway, here is another plane that seems to have the triangle:
(http://www.konkurs.senat.org/article/kumanichkin4.gif)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 03, 2015, 10:32:11 PM
Good point Massimo, I hope we will be able to see more war time photos about planes from 174 GIAP.

In the mean time I post this picture I found on the website EtoRetro.ru (unfortunately the best resolution is available to VIP members only).
Altough it shows famous La-7 "27" post war, in this photo seems visible a demarcation line of two different tones of colors behind the cockpit; could it be the proof that the plane was camouflaged in two tones of grey?
 
Flavio

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 04, 2015, 06:45:49 AM
Hi Flavio,
thank you for posting this image, it's new for me.
The plane looks camouflaged, even if the photo is unclear, however, it looked camouflaged on the best known photo with his mates.
The number seems not outlined. This would be a new information, if we can trust the quality of the image.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 04, 2015, 09:10:48 PM
Hi Flavio,
very interesting photo.
It really looks like two-grey camouflage:

1.) AMT-12 Dark grey demarcation line under the cockpit is not just behind the windshield, like usually seen on the other la-7s:
(http://galerie.palba.cz/albums/userpics/10062/La-7.jpg)

but in the middle of the moving part of the canopy, just like on this "Pokryshkin's" La-7:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Flieger/(150604191002)_Bezimeni-2.jpg)

so dark area under the cockpit on the "27" does not necessarily mean nonstandard:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)

2.) Dark area at the wing root & trailing edge resembles NKAP 1943 standard AMT-12 field like here:
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/kosolapovfoto.jpg)

or this La-5FN:
(http://forum.valka.cz/files/la5fn-2_163.jpg)

And vice versa, the light are on the wing root does not look like the metal plate reflection only:
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)
Kozhedub has still 2 HSU Gold medals, e.g.it is before August 1945. Medals on his chest and pilotka look exactly like here:
(http://sammler.ru/uploads/post-16-1275901676.jpg)
Also dirty and/or corrosion on the metal plate looks very similar. These two photos could be from one photo session.

And here is another photo from etoretro.ru
(http://www.etoretro.ru/data/media/5004/1331475156071.jpg)
- It is apparently La-7
- it has two-grey camouflage (here is AMT-11/AMT-12 demarcation line under the cockpit just behind the wind shield,
- whole engine cowling from the nose to the second metal belt is evenly dark - painted red?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 04, 2015, 10:44:53 PM
Hi Misos,
If I don't miss, we have already seen another photo of this plane.
(http://www.etoretro.ru/data/media/5004/1331475156071.jpg)
It's certainly not the same plane of 27, it had 3 slots on the side plate, and the dark camo band has a different position.
Note the recognition band on the wing.
So, now it seems that Kozhedub was photographed close to (at least) two different planes.

By the way, plane n.12 is extremely beautiful. Do you know more on this beast?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 05, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
Hi Massimo,
yes, "27" and this one seems to be two different aircraft. I think so according to the different position of the demarcation line between AMT-11 and AMT-12 under the cockpit and different number of the slots on the metal plate.

Compare La-7 no. "27":
(http://sammler.ru/uploads/post-16-1275901676.jpg)

with this La-7:
(http://www.etoretro.ru/data/media/5004/1331475156071.jpg)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/kojedb17_zpspkjdgeey.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


PS: Plane no. "12" - La-7 belonged to the 937 iap /322 iad Lt. Col. F.M. Kosolapov. Picture taken at Prague-Kbely airport in June 1945.
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/kosolapovfoto.jpg)

(http://www.eduard.com/store/out/pictures/z1/7425.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2015, 04:04:25 PM
Hi Misos,
thank you  for the informations on n.12.
I think that the dark thing on the nose of this Kozhedub's plane is the camouflage, not a red band.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 05, 2015, 05:14:01 PM
Hi Massimo,
you are probably right. The very left part of the cowling, e.g. the part the closest to the spinner is lighter:
(http://www.etoretro.ru/data/media/5004/1331475156071.jpg)
which could be AMT-11 area.

Here is some other info from Milos Vestsik at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/163982.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/163982.htm)
He has 27 photos from 176 giap. On 10 photos should be red triangles or white areas on the tail. It is possible to identify no. 27 (Kozhedub), 18 (Kumanichkin)
56 and 28. Some red triangles are without white outline.
There are known photos of Kozhedub with 2 HSU Gold medals in front of La-7 without mentioned marking elements. MV thinks that those photos are from the Kozhedub's visit of the Zavod 381 and those La-7s have no relation to 176 giap.
M.Bykov: it remains to assume that red triangles were not painted on all La-7 in 176 giap.

Regarding group of La-7 flying over Berlin, it is necessary to ask Valery Romanenko. MV does not think that they are from 176 giap in April 1945.
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Archive/kozhedub%20la-7/176GvIAP-la7.jpg)

According to MV and M. Bykov also this photo is apparently after-the-war, probably from 1946 and those La-7s probably also do not belong to the 176 giap:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV12-4/17-2.jpg)

And regarding no. 10 with white quick-recognition marking (QRM) MV still thinks that it belonged to 159 giap, not to 176 giap.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la73_zpsnyvmko51.jpg)
Note the little anchor painted above the right arm of the red star on the tail. However, according to M.Bykov aircraft belonged to the Baltic Fleet had whole tails painted white.

Although this QRM seems to be also white, it has the shape and dimension slightly different from no. 10:
(http://www.peoples.ru/military/aviation/kozhedub/kozhedub-12042007124503D1U.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2015, 05:40:22 PM
Hi Misos,
all this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing these informations. Il like n.10 very much.
About the ring of the first plane, it could be AMT-11 but it could also be red, seem very common.
About 2/3 of the profiles on the book of Vestsik have red ring and spinner. Please, ask him if he thinks that it was painted in factory.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on June 05, 2015, 06:15:48 PM
Hi Misos,
all this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing these informations. Il like n.10 very much.

Regards
Massimo

There is another photo of this aircraft.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/pic_79_zpsxcoylorj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/pic_79_zpsxcoylorj.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 05, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
Hi Rodney,
thank you very much. It had something known...
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 06, 2015, 06:32:19 PM

... Milos Vestsik has 27 photos from 176 giap...... It is possible to identify no. 27 (Kozhedub)....


Dear 66misos,

this information is very interesting; can you keep in touch with Mr.Vestsik and ask him if the photos about no.27 of Kozhedub are made after the war or during the war period. I suspect in fact that the white rudder was added after the war at the same time of the white spinner.

Thanks,
Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 07, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Hi,
I can't be sure, but this plane looks to have a landing light in the left wing, just as plane n.40 of 16 giap. Am I wrong?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 11, 2015, 11:10:45 PM
Hi,
this info I have found in the book Lagg & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2 by George Mellinger, Osprey:
The 19 iap became 176 giap in August 19, 1944 when rearmed to new La-7... Kozhedub arrived to this regiment 3 days latter together with other pilots...
On August 23, 1944 Kozhedub found his La-7 "27", the aircraft in which he arrived to the 176 giap, painted red on the engine cowling and white on the tail to look like other machines in this regiment...
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 11, 2015, 11:58:59 PM

...On August 23, 1944 Kozhedub found his La-7 "27", the aircraft in which he arrived to the 176 giap, painted red on the engine cowling and white on the tail to look like other machines in this regiment...
Regards,
   66misos

Thank you 66misos,

undoubtedly this information may help. However photographic evidences are the only reliable proof; very often these kind information are based on veterans memoirs and the grade of accuracy is not so high.

For example read what is quoted at pag.66 of the book you are referring (Lagg & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2):

"....a new La-5FN. To Kozhedub?s surprise, he was informed that this aircraft was a dedication machine specifically assigned to him. It was marked Imeni Geroya Sovetskogo Soyuza podpoklovnika Koneva, N. (in honour of Hero of the Soviet Union Lt Col N Konev). The donor had requested that it be given to the ?best pilot at the front?. Eventually, when Kozhedub was transferred to 176 GIAP, Imeni Koneva was flown by Pavel Bryzgalov until Kirill Evstigneev returned from hospital, the latter then being deemed to be the ?best pilot? in the regiment. This La-5FN must surely be the most distinguished aircraft in the history of Soviet aviation ..."

We know however that the plane was in fact a La-5F model, not a FN model (also the color profile is wrong).
About this plane however (and the different FN model flown by Evstigneev) we will dedicate a specific topic... ;)

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 12, 2015, 07:34:55 AM
Hi Misos, hi all,
Quote
The 19 iap became 176 giap in August 19, 1944 when rearmed to new La-7... Kozhedub arrived to this regiment 3 days latter together with other pilots...
On August 23, 1944 Kozhedub found his La-7 "27", the aircraft in which he arrived to the 176 giap, painted red on the engine cowling and white on the tail to look like other machines in this regiment...
Interesting. So, in a progression of profiles, one could start with his La-7 without the red nose and white tail. Is it known if his previous regiment had some distinctive painting?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 19, 2015, 02:16:36 PM
Hi,
interesting photos and info were posted by Messoed at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/164809.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/164809.htm):
"...there were two exhibition in 1945. One of them...exhibits were pictures painted by soldiers-artists... The second exhibition "Fighting way the 16th Air Army. From the Volga to the Elbe", where Soviet and German military equipment was displayed, was held near Berlin in Woltersdorf..."

(http://www.tg-m.ru/catalog/sites/default/files/catalog/photos/7_2.jpg)

(http://coollib.com/i/99/260599/pic_101.jpg)
Here I enlarged the part with the plane:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub13b_zpsjuecj89c.jpg)

They both are related to this one:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

I am pretty sure somewhere out there must be a photo clearly showing whether Kozhedub's La-7 had either single-grey or two-grey camouflage. Only to find it...
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 19, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
Hi Misos, interesting thing. So the photo with all those medals painted on was not taken at frunze academy.
The finish look semigloss, well different from the chalky one of the famous photo with the victories painted on the site. My first impression is that the plane was repainted grey, with victories on both sides.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 19, 2015, 05:14:11 PM
Thanks for sharing 66Misos.

I agree with you; in my opinion Russian archives are full of never seen photos, and it is high probable that Kozhedub's La-7 "27" was high photographed at the end of the war. Russian enthusiasts can help us.

Massimo in my opinion, according to the photo I posted on reply #76, the camouflage on that occasion was still in two colours...but confirmation right now is very difficoult.

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2015, 09:46:45 AM
Hi Flavio,
the photo shows plane 27 still in service, being refuelled (I suppose) of compressed air. The background is different from the exposition in Germany on a sort of pedestal between trees.

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)

So we can't know for sure if the plane was repainted between those shots.
But, for what I see, the division line between the camouflage and the blue lower surface on the rear fuselage sides seems to have exactly the same position of this photo:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

this is in favour of the plane still camouflaged.
Unfortunately it doesn't say much if the decorations and the red spinner were already present on the photo of the operative plane in May 1945, after the return of Kozhedub from Moscow. There is still the possibility that the reconstruction of the Russian decals sheet is right, and Kozhedub had a single Guards mark at that time, while it could have had the third HSU starlet at the time of the exposition.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 20, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
...possibility that the reconstruction of the Russian decals sheet is right, ....

Massimo

Forgive me Massimo,

but I missed one point; what is the decal sheet you are refferring?

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2015, 12:57:24 PM
Hi Flavio,
the one of the first post.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la_5_orig_resize_zps5ujrcxen.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 20, 2015, 06:51:29 PM
...possibility that the reconstruction of the Russian decals sheet is right, ....


Forgive me Massimo,

but I missed one point; what is the decal sheet you are refferring?


It isn't a decal sheet; it's a poster made by Stankov.  It should be taken with a "grain of salt", like everything else from him... 


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 20, 2015, 10:35:31 PM
Yes KL,

this is a collection of a/c flown by Kozhedub made by Stankov.

I wrote him more than a year ago asking some information about the research he made about La-7 "27". Stankov replied me he was writing a book about Kozhedub and all his research will be there; unfortunately the book is still in progress.

I also have some doubts about these two profiles; the first profile should represent La-7 "27" during the war; perhaps Stankov has photographic evidence confirming the white spinner and the badge on the nose. The second profile is supposed to represent the plane immediately after the war; this time we have photographic proof of the nose, otherwise in the fuselage are missing the 62 small victory marks.

Very interesting (if confirmed) is the serial number of the plane №45210127; this can help us to find where and when it was manufactured (I am not an expert of Soviet aircraft production plants).

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Dark Green Man on June 21, 2015, 01:38:01 AM
if that is true.....

45 indicates La-7(product number)
21 is Zavod 21 at Gorky
01 is series
27 is unit

that would mean that it is the 27th La-7 made at Gorky - a very early La-7


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 21, 2015, 09:03:10 AM

this is a collection of a/c flown by Kozhedub made by Stankov.
...
I also have some doubts about these two profiles
...


Following is another poster made by Stankv:   listing of all Kozhedub's victories:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3907/deruluft.0/0_3b1c8_ca54d457_L.jpg" width="357" height="500")

FYI, there are 150 victories!!!  This type of information is acceptable to a certain part of Russian public, but not to those who are knowledgeable...

Since in reality Kozhedub had some 60 victories, I would say that about 40% of the information in Stankov's poster is "true", already known.  Remaining 60% are Stankov's fairy-tails...

KL     


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2015, 09:16:26 PM
The absence of victory starlets is really strange. I guess that they were painted contemporarily to the medals at the war's end, maybe just before the famous photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2015, 09:26:18 PM
Quote
45 indicates La-7(product number)
21 is Zavod 21 at Gorky
01 is series
27 is unit

that would mean that it is the 27th La-7 made at Gorky - a very early La-7

I'm doubtful, the font of the bort number suggests zavod 381. According to observations of Ruchkovsky, the thinner and more angular numbers are associated with this factory, while smaller stars and more rounded numbers are typical of z.21
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 22, 2015, 07:45:30 PM
Massimo,

please, can you give me some example of number used by zavod 381 and zavod 21? Just to understand the difference, thank you.

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 22, 2015, 08:52:08 PM
Hi Flavio,
(http://galerie.palba.cz/albums/userpics/10062/La-7.jpg)
this should be of Z.21. Small stars, thick and rounded numbers.

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h257/vadasz/kosolapovfoto.jpg)
This should be of Z.381. Thinner numbers, more angular with flattened top and bottom of rounded numbers, curved leg of 2, wider stars.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la73_zpsnyvmko51.jpg)
again Z.381

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)
The font and the size of the stars of Kozhedub's plane suggest Z.381.

The difference in fonts is so visible on La-7s only, not on La-5FN.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 22, 2015, 11:25:39 PM
Thank you Massimo ;)

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 23, 2015, 11:43:27 AM
Hi Flavio,
the photo shows plane 27 still in service, being refuelled (I suppose) of compressed air. The background is different from the exposition in Germany on a sort of pedestal between trees.

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)

So we can't know for sure if the plane was repainted between those shots.
But, for what I see, the division line between the camouflage and the blue lower surface on the rear fuselage sides seems to have exactly the same position of this photo:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

this is in favour of the plane still camouflaged.
Unfortunately it doesn't say much if the decorations and the red spinner were already present on the photo of the operative plane in May 1945, after the return of Kozhedub from Moscow. There is still the possibility that the reconstruction of the Russian decals sheet is right, and Kozhedub had a single Guards mark at that time, while it could have had the third HSU starlet at the time of the exposition...

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/la_5_orig_resize_zps5ujrcxen.jpg)

Hi,
compare size of Guard medal and other medals on both "27" on the picture above. Going from one big Guard medal to several smaller medals required at least partial repainting of the engine cowling, both red and grey areas. Question is whether they reapinted only part of the engine cowling, or whole cowling or whole aircraft.
According to the http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/ (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/):
" [Following a mission on 11 Feb/45 ] ...Kozedub?s plane was slightly damaged ? two hits to the fuselage and one hit to the tail." - e.g. those hits had to be repaired and repainted, e.g. blotches of the different color could be there.

I (e.g. E.P.) have spoken at length to many of the staff of the Monino Museum from this time. There is unanimous agreement that "27" was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...

Photo "1962 in Monino Hall No.1":
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/monino-1962.jpg)

Photo of the same place sometime latter:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/mon-1963.jpg)

White 27" appeared in a single-colour AMT-11 upper surface finish. The undersurfaces have the correct appearance on this photo (K-39 film was used here) for AMT-7, and there is every reason to believe that this was in fact the case. The details of the red 'triangle' features and the white trim are identical to the Feb/1945 photograph, and the location and nature of the upper/lower colour demarcation line on the lower cowling is also consistent with this view. As well, the national markings are of the more authentic white-border variety, and are notably not the stereotypical 'Victory' types, while the numerals remain un-trimmed. The spinner, however, is mysteriously painted white. The aircraft now sports the various HSU and 'kill' marking artwork on both the port and starboard sides...
It is most interesting that the aircraft, in its "1955-61" appearance, looks to match the available evidence of its Wartime colouration extremely well. There is simply no evidence on this aircraft that it was ever refinished..."

In standard WWII grey-grey camo, area surrounding red triangle on the engine cowling on the left side should be dark grey AMT-12:
(http://galerie.palba.cz/albums/userpics/10062/La-7.jpg)

and from the right side there should be visible darker area above and beneath the red triangle:
(http://www.militar.org.ua/militar/aviacion/lavochkin-La-5-8.jpg)
but nothing like that is visible on the photos from Monino. ???

To summarize it, I would not be surprised, if the aircraft originally in the standard grey-grey camo and with color blotches after repairs was completely repainted and polished for the Berlin exhibition with the full decoration. I do not understand why victory stars would not have been there.
And with this single grey (AMT-11) painting is could go to TsDAK and from there to Monino.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 23, 2015, 09:06:33 PM
Hi Misos,
I'm not so sure that the plane depicted in Monino has uniform grey uppersurfaces. I think to see a darker zone under the 27, and another on the wing uppersurface. These zones seem consistent between the photos, although the light seems changed. I agree that I can't see any on the cowling.
I agree also that the deletion of the guards mark would have required some repainting. At this point, the fact that the guards mark was there, and with that size and position, is still to demonstrate.  I don't doubt that someone said to Stankov that the badge was there. But, if there is not a photo, the position, size (and reality) of this mark are still unknown.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on June 24, 2015, 12:32:41 AM
Hi all,

I also try to summarize my impression about this  plane.

Let's start with this two photos:

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7%203-c%20%20%20%202012-08%20.jpg)
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)

I think they were taken on the same occasion just after the end of the war but before August '45 (Kozhedub has two HSU stars only). According to these photos I note:
1- white tail
2- bordered "27" (blue?)
3- victory stars and HSU stars on fuselage (added post war)
4- two grey tone camouflage.

No information about the nose.

However this photo was taken few time later (Kozhedub still with only two HSU star),

(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s499/Flaviosil/Kozhedub%20La7%203-i%20%20%20%202013-05.jpg)

and here is visible the nose with:

5- white spinner
6- red triangles (white bordered)
7- medals (added post war).

In my opinion this is how La-7 "27" appeared soon after the war and apart points 3 and 7, how it was during the last weeks of the war.
I agree with Massimo "...the fact that the guards mark was there, and with that size and position, is still to demonstrate...".

- Referring to the La-7 with red spinner and slight different red triangle (curved) I suspect it was not the same plane.

- Referring to the La-7 in Monino, I remember a '60 photo showing the port side of the plane where was well visible the different position of the fuselage star, the different position of the demarcation line between upper and lower colors, different markings, and above all single tone camouflage.
I believe what is quoted by 66misos ".. 27 was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...".

My impression is that "27" was heavily retouched/repainted before reach TsDAK in the 10 years period after the war, or why not even a different plane?

Flavio

 


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 24, 2015, 03:49:16 AM

Photo "1962 in Monino Hall No.1":
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/monino-1962.jpg)

Photo of the same place sometime latter:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/mon-1963.jpg)

White 27" appeared in a single-colour AMT-11 upper surface finish. The undersurfaces have the correct appearance on this photo (K-39 film was used here) for AMT-7, and there is every reason to believe that this was in fact the case. The details of the red 'triangle' features and the white trim are identical to the Feb/1945 photograph, and the location and nature of the upper/lower colour demarcation line on the lower cowling is also consistent with this view. As well, the national markings are of the more authentic white-border variety, and are notably not the stereotypical 'Victory' types, while the numerals remain un-trimmed. The spinner, however, is mysteriously painted white. The aircraft now sports the various HSU and 'kill' marking artwork on both the port and starboard sides...
It is most interesting that the aircraft, in its "1955-61" appearance, looks to match the available evidence of its Wartime colouration extremely well. There is simply no evidence on this aircraft that it was ever refinished..."

First this is TsDAK, not Monino.  Kozhedub's La-7 was transfered to Monino in July 1960, so these photos were taken before 1960...

Second, Kozhedub's La-7 never had red stars with white only border.  What Pilawskii calls "Victory star", a red star with white and red border, was a standard VVS marking since Sept 1943.



I (e.g. E.P.) have spoken at length to many of the staff of the Monino Museum from this time. There is unanimous agreement that "27" was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...

If this comes from Pilawskii it has to be wrong:  Kozhedub's La-7 was repainted for 1967 Aviation Day at Demodedovo airport

(http://apikabu.ru/img_n/2012-05_6/n6k.jpg)

(http://cs405229.vk.me/v405229485/b836/SqvpJzXRV-8.jpg)

video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXBfGgivXhQ
La-7 at 5:28


Regards,
KL


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: steph40 on June 24, 2015, 10:57:19 AM
Hello all,

I'm very interested by this topic because Kozhedub La-7 is in my future projects. I would like submit to you 2 profiles and I would like your opinion
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx84/le_steph40/Kozhedub%20Y.-La-7%20176%20IAP%20feacutevrier%201945_zpstivsaevy.jpg)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx84/le_steph40/Kozhedub%20Y.-La-7%20176%20IAP%20feacutevrier%201945_zpsthwhg7cl.jpg)
What is the most probable version for his La-7 in the first 3 or 4 months of 1945 ? With ou without white marking on the fin ? With or without thin red edging on white 27 ?
TIA, regards
Steph


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2015, 04:15:07 PM
Hi Steph,
my guess is that there should be the white triangle on the tail, a dark blue outine on the number (the only known wreck of La-7 has blue outline), a white outline around the triangle on the nose; the triangle itself should be wider and more straight than these profiles.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
Hi,
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/monino-1962.jpg)
the plane seems to have still unpainted side plates with traces of smoke in the '50s. I think it was not repainted, else the first thing they would have done was to repaint these plates as they did later.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 24, 2015, 05:24:17 PM
Hi,
here are another pictures of Kozhedub's La-7:

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/stories/1020d1299757739t-misadventures-ivan-kozhedubs-famous-white-27-a-koz_la-7.jpg)
This picture is pretty consistent with the picture in the post above - same decoration, metal plate still unpainted, uppersurface seems to be single color (AMT-11)

However, this picture looks like not very successfull repainting:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/brochure-monino-la7.jpg)
- overal dark single color uppersurface - dark blue like on the exhibition in 1967?
- changed position of victory stars and 3 HSU medals,
- no board number, no fuselage star (?!)

Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2015, 07:09:31 PM
Hi Misos,
thank you for the photos.
I've tried to increase the contrast, and I think to see darker parts consistent with previous photos. In my idea, the plane didn't sufferd consisting repaintings then.
Note that the medals are painted badly aligned: the front one is higher than the others. this suggests that it was painted in a second time after August (its third HSU award, if i remember well), so it's likely that the first two were painted in spring/summer 1945 on both sides, with victory stars and the white spinner.
The successive repainting looks really bad. I think it was green, as postwar planes, also because it was semimatt when compared to the glossy nose.
I doubt that the plane was repainted blue. Perhaps it was dark grey, and the photo was retouched to make it more cool.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 26, 2015, 06:40:39 AM
Hi Misos and Massimo

there is a short movie with Kozhedub at:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=110&v=PCghncher8g
Can you make a couple of screen captures from 1:42 to 1:50.  The scene shows Kozhedub with a group of Pioneers at TsDiK, probably shortly after the war.

You could also make an image from Demodedovo video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXBfGgivXhQ
at 5:28.  It shows La-7 colours more realistically.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 26, 2015, 07:13:44 AM
Thank you Konstantin, this is good and confirms the details we see on the museum photos of the '50s. The frunds are better visible.
Unfortunately this is not decisive about the camo.
A photo of the museum plane from the other side would be useful, but perhaps there was not space enough and photographers seem to have neglected this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 26, 2015, 12:13:16 PM
Hi,
here is screenshot from the link posted by KL - it nicely shows decoration details:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub19_zpsclbe8taz.jpg)

Here I played a bit with contrast, gamma etc. to enhance suface detials:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub17_zpsc5tovccy.jpg)
Surface under the number 27 looks darker than surrounding area and is exactly where one wold expect AMT-12 blotch of standard NKAP 1943 scheme.
Also a top of engine cowling seems to be darker, but I am not able to say whether it is shadow, or photo defect or AMT-12 blotch.

And here are screenshots from the TV News I found at Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z837Lrkar0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z837Lrkar0) posted on June 7, 2015:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/150626_Kozedub%20La-7_zpskawcazfw.jpg)
Kozhedub's La-7 again freshly repainted.

Note two-grey camo, what is change from previous single grey version:
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii94/FPSOlkor/aviaphotos/CIMG2683.jpg)

Other details:
Propeller spinner is red, while propeller blades again have yellow tips (?),
Decoration is again on the both sides,
Number "27" is outlined by some dark, probably blue color,
White victory stars (not red with white outline) and two HSU stars (middle and right) with leaves really resemble this photo:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)
Only the third HSU medal is added on the left. Also style of HSU stars is the same.
Seemts it (correctly) does not have red stars on the upper wing.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 26, 2015, 09:51:19 PM
Hi Misos,
excellent summary.
It seems that only one of the starlets of the 1945 version has a shadowing, other stars seem of uniform color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 27, 2015, 01:52:38 AM

It seems that only one of the starlets of the 1945 version has a shadowing, other stars seem of uniform color.


I can't see one different starlet?/?  All 62 starlets looks the same...
This may imply that all 62 stars were painted after VE day, when total was definitive.  In that case Kozhedub, like Pokrishkin, didn't have his victory score displayed on his combat planes.

Misos,
Thanks for the image.  :)
can you please make another screen capture with Kozhedub and pioneers, it may be posible to see his medals and rank and that will help to date the movie.  Also can you make a screen capture from that Demodedovo movie?

Regards,
KKL


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 27, 2015, 06:04:55 AM
Quote
I can't see one different starlet?/?  All 62 starlets looks the same...
the starlet of the medal.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 27, 2015, 06:38:22 AM
Quote
I can't see one different starlet?/?  All 62 starlets looks the same...
the starlet of the medal.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/white27-cammo-2-cockpt.jpg)


that one is known as a "zolotaya zvezda" medal - "Golden Star Medal"

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Golden_Star_medal_473.jpg/250px-Golden_Star_medal_473.jpg)

Regards,
Konstantin


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 27, 2015, 05:06:46 PM
Quote
that one is known as a "zolotaya zvezda" medal - "Golden Star Medal"
Very interesting. Anyway, I haven't written 'victory starlets'.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 27, 2015, 05:41:37 PM
Hi,
here are another screenshots from links posted by KL:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub20_zpsargzzias.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/Kozedub21_zpstwcbtyqy.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on June 27, 2015, 08:33:18 PM
Thanks Misos,  :) Those images are interesting and useful!

one photo more from 1967 Demodedovo Air parade:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK1995-11/60-2.jpg)

two photos from Monino museum taken in 1975

(http://kievmonument.narod.ru/6a/la7-1253400.jpg)

(http://kievmonument.narod.ru/6a/la7-900574.jpg)


Following photo, from which Pilawskii draws wild conclusions is a poor montage and it's totally irelevant:

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/brochure-monino-la7.jpg)

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on July 14, 2015, 03:54:01 AM
Pilawskii's 2004 web page about the Kozhedub's La-7 has been mentioned several times in this thread. Like everything else from Pilawskii, text should be taken with "a grain of salt"...  There is some true and relevant information, but it's mixed up with authors fantasies (or misinformation, errors etc.).

Some of those fantasies/misinformation/errors are:

1.   Virtually all of the La-7s produced between November 1944 and February 1945 were completed in a single-colour upper surface scheme of AMT-11.
... We know this to be true not only from the factory records, but also from the anecdotal reports of pilots (like Alelyukhin and Dolgushin) who acquired La-7s from the factories at this time in person, and painted them with their own creations. In that case, "White 27" would have looked like this when delivered to the Regiment.

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/La7-white27-from-factory.jpg)

This is all misinformation:  there is no evidence (Pilawskii hasn't seen any factory records!!!) that any combat fighter plane was finished uncamouflaged in a "single-colour upper surface scheme"  between November 1944 and February 1945.  All series fighters made during this period were camouflaged in 2-gray camouflage scheme.

2.  It seems that "White 27" also passed into the collection of the Zhukovskiy Institute (TsAGI) at this time, and was displayed informally for the students/staff at TsAGI.

This is also misinformation:  what would be the purpose of an wooden piston engined plane at TsAGI shortly after the war?   at that time TsAGI was busy developing subsonic/trans-sonic jet airplanes.

3.  Mystery, Catastrophe or Conspiracy?....   the rumours of mishap are persistent, and credible. Many historians have examined the current La-7 specimen at Monino and found it to be unconvincing. I certainly have been one of these. When I pressed the staff for answers, I began to hear a lot of hushed rumours. The most notable of these came from such persons as the former Director Yakovlevich, who recalled that there was some kind of "accident" involving "White 27" during the 1960s.

There is no conspiracy - Kozhedub's La-7 was moved from TsDAK to Monino Museum in 1960 and it stayed there since.  For some 50 years it was sporting one and the same paint job - dark gray upper surfaces and light blue undersides.

HTH,
KL    


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 14, 2015, 12:05:08 PM
Quote
We know this to be true not only from the factory records, but also from the anecdotal reports of pilots (like Alelyukhin and Dolgushin) who acquired La-7s from the factories at this time in person, and painted them with their own creations.
For what I know (thanks Misos) Dolgushin's plane had grey uppersurfaces, but it was repainted and reprimed at the maintenance depot of his unit. Few other known planes of his unit appear camouflaged on photos.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: KL on July 15, 2015, 03:42:02 AM

For what I know (thanks Misos) Dolgushin's plane had grey uppersurfaces, but it was repainted and reprimed at the maintenance depot of his unit. Few other known planes of his unit appear camouflaged on photos.

Pilawskii writes about the single-colour upper surface scheme applied in factories during the war, in 1944 and beginning of 1945.  In his SAFFC book, he has described quite a few such schemes  purportedly applied on all kinds of Yak and La fighters.  There is even bluish Yak-9 scheme supposedly representing "wood aeroluck" (whatever that is?).  
Naive readers (including myself...) had an impression that those schemes were based on "factory records".  Now we know that Pilawskii only source were few already published photos.  

Yes, there are photos of Yak and La fighters in single-colour scheme, but those photos show either a relatively small number of overhauled planes or post-war planes.

In short, factory applied single-colour scheme before VE-day is another Pilawskii's fantasy - should be discarded same as his "green-brown scheme" or "south front scheme".
Regards,
KL    


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on September 04, 2015, 08:06:08 AM
As for the numbers, maybe someone will be useful
La 7 №27 early type (and for most it is a photo we see) is the serial number №45210127 (Well, at least that which is preserved in Monino)
So №45210127 number belongs to 21 GAZ (Gorky (Nizhny Novgorod)) And they in turn did a blue piping on the board rooms.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 06, 2015, 06:11:25 PM
Hi Johann,
Quote
And they in turn did a blue piping on the board rooms.
Do you mean that there was a blue outline around the bort number?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on September 07, 2015, 08:17:24 AM
Yes exactly. Blue tracings rooms
English I still difficult obschatsya (


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: steph40 on October 05, 2015, 02:08:00 PM
Hello,

If I well understood, the most probable scheme of Kozhedub La-7 early in 1945 is this one ?

(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx84/le_steph40/Kozhedub%20Y.-La-7%20176%20IAP%20feacutevrier%201945_zpslzrccrol.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on October 05, 2015, 03:09:13 PM
Yes, just was a white cone screw


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on January 25, 2016, 06:17:56 AM
Never seen this photo before.

http://nemaloknig.info/read-256208/?page=3

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/pic_37_zpsjwlhbcvx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/pic_37_zpsjwlhbcvx.jpg.html)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on January 25, 2016, 10:11:50 AM
Hi Barney,
nice photo. Seems to be from the same photo session like this one:
(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/93/3f6eafb62986e0915a2cb1279b0a0b93.jpg)
Note the blanket on the engine cowling.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on February 13, 2016, 10:24:33 AM
Hi,
nice new photo of afterwar Kozhedub's La-7 posted at VIF:

(http://moypolk.ru/sites/default/files/styles/big/public/photos/034a4643.jpg?itok=RAO5FGvA)

Note outline on the number 27 and dark area under the number 27 exactly where it should be according to the NKAP 1943 scheme - it again support two-grey camo on Kozhedub's La-7.
Questionable is only area bellow the cockpit under victory stars.

Standard NKAP1943 scheme:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1943-45-fighters/La7-50.jpg)

regards,
   66misos
 


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2016, 04:03:58 PM
Hi Misos,
good image, thank you for posting.
Yes, this area doesn't look changed from the known photo at the unit, only it looks glossy. About the markings on the nose... who knows.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on February 18, 2016, 10:42:08 PM
Great finding 66misos,

thanks for sharing

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 04, 2017, 12:14:53 PM
Hi,
I am working on my page on La-7s, and on the plane of Kozhedub in particular.
I've read again all what written in the previous posts.
First, I wonder if there is any more recent link to images of the repainted La-7.

To tell the truth, I am not very convinced of my profile of the plane in spring 1945, the one that resembles more to the plane repainted in the museum. I have not sure informations on how the nose was painted.
It could be that it was identical to the way it appeared at the exposition in Germany, ie already with white spinner and emblems.
Or, that the plane  was more or less as Stankov draws, but with a smaller Guards emblem.
At the end, the pilot that utilized plane 27 instead of Kozhedub  said that there were not medals or victories painted on it, but this is not strongly unconsistent with a white spinner and a Guards emblem (maybe on the red part only).
So I am considering to delete the profile of May 1945, unless new considerations would emerge.. all the emblems.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozedub-la72guns2-lpr.jpg)
and leave only that of summer 1944
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozedub-la72guns0-lpr.jpg)
and of summer 1945.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozedub-la72guns3-lpr.jpg)
Any suggestions?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on January 04, 2017, 05:37:40 PM
Hi Massimo,
I have browsed internet a lot of time since we discussed Kozhedub's La-7, but so far I did not find any new photo/info about Kozhedub's plane.
Yes, there are photos showing Kozhedub's wartime Lavochkin with the red spinner.
And there are afterwar photos with the white spinner.
I really do not see reason to repaint spinner from red to white only for display purpose (although in Army everything is possible). So IMHO white spinner could be somehow related to Berlin operation, kind of unit/plane identification, I do not know. And after the end of the war, they simply cleaned and polished Kozhedub's La-7 and added there all that medals on the engine cowling. And again, I do not know whether those cowling medals were painted together with victory starlets and HSU medal beneath cockpit, or they were addedd latter for Berlin exhibition.
Pages http://rostec.ru/en/news/4516397 (http://rostec.ru/en/news/4516397) and http://russia-insider.com/en/history/aircrafts-great-patriotic-war/ri6672 (http://russia-insider.com/en/history/aircrafts-great-patriotic-war/ri6672) show the latest reconstruction/interpretation of the Kozhedub's La-7 in the Moscow museum.
Best regards,
   Misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on January 04, 2017, 10:02:34 PM
Massimo welcome. If not a secret where the data that the aircraft was Kozhedub red fairing screws? All aircraft Kozhedub photos up to 2010 he was white. There are a number of photos which the fairing screw red, but it is a retouching or photo Kozhedub about foreign aircraft.
Regarding the profile of the summer of '45. The photograph is one and the same machine taken in the same time -
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg
https://s27.postimg.org/phfgdhh5f/image.jpg


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on January 04, 2017, 10:06:16 PM
I almost forgot. Plane Kozhedub on the state for 44 years. Kok white and has white piping around the red triangle on the hood of the aircraft
http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/kojedb3.jpg


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 05, 2017, 09:30:56 AM
Hi Misos,
thank you for your considerations.
Hi Johann, there are wartime photos showing Kozhedub close to planes with red spinners, with and without the white outlines on the red triangles. It is possible that not all the planes were '27'. I think that at first the triangles were simply red, then the white fillet was added.
The date when the spinner was repainted from red to white is unknown, I don't know if there is any report. Eventually, one could trust the version of Stankov with white spinner and guards emblem during the war, that is said to be based on an interview to Kozhedub himself, but memoirs after 50 years are a risky source.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on January 05, 2017, 10:21:51 AM
Yes, all that. There are a series of photographs where Kozhedub stands on the plane with a red background cook, but most likely it's not his car. I unfortunately do not have enough knowledge of English to explain that. But I can throw some pictures with explanations. Unless of course interesting.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 05, 2017, 02:20:45 PM
Hi Johann, if you have photos, please post them.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on January 07, 2017, 04:53:19 PM
Hi Massimo,
red triangles without white outline were surely in La-5FN.
Unfortunately, these photos are not clear/contrast enogh to either confirm od deny white outline on La-7:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/KozhedubIN.jpg/220px-KozhedubIN.jpg)

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-2.jpg)

Compare them with the upper part of this one:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

However, this (wartime) photo clearly shows white outline:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/kojedb3.jpg)

IMHO it is safer to make profile of Kozhedub's La-7 with the white-outlined red triangles.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 08, 2017, 07:06:34 AM
Hi Misos,I see. Probably I'll show both variants. I'm still wondering if to show an hypothetical profile of the plane in late 1944/early 1945 with white spinner and Guards mark as from the profile of Stankov.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2017, 12:46:09 PM
Hi,
I've found this photo of Kozhedub

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/06.jpg)

Note that the plane on the bckground seems to have a fully red nose instead of the triangles.
He has two HSU medals, so the image has to be of spring 1945.
Could this image be related to the following one

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/01of176giapfoto.jpg)

that is attributed to 'his' 176 giap in April 1945?
Looks so strange that the unit abandoned its prestigious livery with red triangles and white caps even before the war's end!
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: warhawk on March 07, 2017, 07:51:25 PM
Hi guys,
I found a great photo of his La-5FN HERE (http://www.anews.com/us/post/46159362/?innercatid=7&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fyandex.ru%2Fclck%2Fjsredir%3Ffrom%3Dyandex.ru%253Bimages%252Fsearch%253Bimages%253B%253B%26text%3D%26etext%3D1353._WI1QsXIRMoEBbDYYPv2OiuSlLkPPayztaTfGMoIFItpGYjEjzq4FyLMDS0ZOR1i7haufQ80Xz82ijBapqH3Bg.2fad7944f10cf4dd6b8b6c7dcf7ce7963565a6c7%26uuid%3D%26state%3Dtid_Wvm4RM28ca_MiO4Ne9osTPtpHS9wicjEF5X7fRziVPIHCd9FyQ%2C%2C%26data%3DUlNrNmk5WktYejdiZGJXMlpCZGtSU2JTd0lxdzRYdC1kRUlZZlB3TmJEVHUtN0EtSy1WX1dOS0F1YnREMmp5bE1pRG81QzV4ZVVnZzhkTFRRUzZxekY2QWowa3Brb05NX1d2allOUVd1cDg3cjViN0tYQkk3QSws%26sign%3D4c714930af08228c46ea48cb1bd1bd4c%26keyno%3D0%26b64e%3D2%26l10n%3Dru)  ;)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 07, 2017, 09:21:39 PM
Good one. Thank you.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on May 03, 2017, 09:08:27 AM
Hi Rodney,
very interesting indeed.
On the page about Yestigneev there is a photo, a profile and text about another of his planes:
Quote
In early March 1944, at the request of the regimental commander, he went on an exceptional risk, try out "fitness for work" muddy airfield. At start of his fighter, almost fly into a ravine, stood on end, wheels bogged down in the mud. A month later of - the negligence of the representative of the air army, messed up the oxygen cylinder with air, starting with a balloon pump exploded. Evstigneeva burned face and thrown out of the cab, and the car, speeding up the running, ran on the airfield, then abruptly turned and stopped. Yevstigneev insisted on repairing its "war horse", and now his left side was covered with intricate camouflage that hid patches, which were deposited black figures "95" with red trim.

On this machine, he had to fight at Jassy. In early April, Chisinau over the airfield, at low altitude, he shot down 4-engined FW-200 "Condor". But this "curiosity" was not officially recorded on his battle score. In 27 sorties at Jassy and 13 air battles Yevstigneev senior lieutenant shot down 7 enemy planes.

Quote
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign12.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/evstign1.jpg)
Fighter La-5FN Captain KA Evstigneeva. 178th GvIAP, autumn 1944.
Well, the photo and text speak of plane 95, but the profile shows it as 96. I wonder how this can be explained.
The photo itself looks unconvincing. The plane looks more a La-7 than a La-5FN. Could it be the photo of another plane, maybe of 1945, that had in common with the one of Yestigneev the number and the position only?
Regards
Massimo


Bit off topic how ever I think this link has his LA-5.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign9_zpsqv0ze5oq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/evstign9_zpsqv0ze5oq.jpg.html)

http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/e/evstignv.htm


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 03, 2017, 04:41:16 PM
Hi,
interesting photo indeed.
Anyway, it is heavily retouched. The ground is strange and let see obvious signs of cloning pixels. The inscription is even too sharp.
I would wait for some confirmation before considering this image as real.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2017, 08:46:45 AM
Hi,
here is a photo of the plane of Kozhedub, presumably of 1945, never seen before.

http://goskatalog.ru/portal/#/collections?id=8003610 (http://goskatalog.ru/portal/#/collections?id=8003610)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: barneybolac on June 20, 2017, 09:02:11 AM
Hi,
here is a photo of the plane of Kozhedub, presumably of 1945, never seen before.

http://goskatalog.ru/portal/#/collections?id=8003610 (http://goskatalog.ru/portal/#/collections?id=8003610)

Regards
Massimo

Google translation.


-
The photo. A group portrait at VDNKh (against the backdrop of Ivan Kozhedub's plane).

Period of creation:
1945
Material, technique:
Photo printing, photo paper (glossy)
The size:
10.6 x 14.8 centimeters
Place of origin:
-
Number in the State Tax Administration:
7891420
GIC number (CP):
PCM-21311/108
Inventory number:
-


Location
State regional budget cultural institution "Perm Local History Museum"


Group photo portrait against the background of the wooden pavilion VDNH with the inscription "1942" and the fighter LA-7 (the car of the thrice Hero of the Soviet Union I. Kozhedub). Represented in full growth are two military men (sergeants are military comrades MP Arsentieva) and two girls in white blouses and dark skirts.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 20, 2017, 10:34:32 AM
Hi,
thank you for the translation.
So, the original photo is in a museum in Perm, I wonder if it was taken in Germany during the already discussed exhibition, or if this pavillon has another location in Soviet Union. What could VDNH mean?
The most important thing, in my view, is the colouring. The photo gives the idea of an uniform grey, only vague shadows suggest a camouflage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 20, 2017, 11:22:26 AM
Hi All,
very interesting photo dated on year 1945, in front of the building/exhibition "1942" of VDNCh (VDNCh = Exhibition of the Nation economy achievements, located in Moscow, http://vdnh.ru/en (http://vdnh.ru/en))
My understanding is that printed photo itself is located in museum in Perm.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Johann on June 21, 2017, 06:39:08 AM
VDNCh = Exhibition of the Nation economy achievements, located in Moscow
Exhibition of Achievements of National Economy - To be precise

Does it look like a line of camouflage, or am I mistaken?
(https://s13.postimg.org/dcboa7l4n/777.jpg)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2017, 01:13:11 PM
Hi,
I don't know... it seems to continue on the light blue part. there is some uncertain change of shade close to the star and to the fillet of the fin.
I think that they made something on this plane in late spring/summer 1945, perhaps they repainted it dark grey and this let see vaguely the previous camouflage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 21, 2017, 01:51:13 PM
Hi,
compare photo above with photo from http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg17234#msg17234 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg17234#msg17234), that was taken at exhibition near Berlin also in 1945 and camouflage fields are apparent:
(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-05/54-3.jpg)

However, four emblems painted on the red triangle were only on the left side, or they were repanted on the right side of the La-7 at the VDNCh exhibition, dated also on 1945.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 23, 2017, 08:33:19 PM
Hi Misos,
this photos has spots of shadow from the trees, I am not sure that it was camouflaged. I wonder if it was polished. Anyway i think to see the change in shade under the strut of the windshield.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on June 24, 2017, 05:17:15 AM
Hi Massimo,

this photo is form my "Reply 135" of this thread:
(http://moypolk.ru/sites/default/files/styles/big/public/photos/034a4643.jpg?itok=RAO5FGvA)
That plane is seems to be camouflaged - note dark area under the number 27, border between AMT-11 and AMT-12 is in the middle of the digit "2" - exactly there where one would expected it.

Although AMT-12 beneath the cockpit seems to be only under the victory starlets, not of the standard size and shape.
Comparte Kozhedub's La-7:
(http://sammler.ru/uploads/post-16-1275901676.jpg)
with this La-7:
(https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/world-war-2/images/c/c6/La-7.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150928202549)

All that points at at least partial repainting, look here http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg16621#msg16621 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg16621#msg16621)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 24, 2017, 11:19:02 AM
Hi Misos,
I agree that there are traces of camouflage. I wonder why the contrast is so reduced although being the general shade of the plane quite dark. Perhaps the blue-grey was more fresh than the dark grey due to repaintings?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on November 16, 2017, 11:23:13 PM
A further shot of Kozhedub's La-7 "27" from Mansur Mustafin website on Facebook

Flavio

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210406142526742&set=a.1103386341724.2016169.1138695823&type=3&theater

(https://preview.ibb.co/mqLe3R/kozhedub_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g5q1Hm)


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2017, 09:33:44 AM
Hi Flavio,
thank you for sharing this photo.
It is fully clear that the plane was widely repainted after the famous photo of Kozhedub aside it.
Now I have to revise my profile, making a different one for the spring 1945 when still at the unit, camouflaged and with red spinner.
I wonder if it is really the same plane, or a clone to match it. The shape of the digits suggests Z.381, but the plane preserved in Monino is built in Z.21.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2017, 12:25:20 PM
Hi,
looking at photos of spring 1945,  now I don't think that the plane was repainted between the sessions.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/Kozhedub%20La7.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/kozedub27f.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mqLe3R/kozhedub_2.jpg)
Now it seems clear that the contrast of the painting was already lost when the photos of the spring were shot.
It is not clear if the plane was repainted with solid grey uppersurfaces when in the unit, maybe just before marking it with starlets and medals, or if the contrast of the camouflage was lost due to weathering.
I see that the surface is not fully matt, so I think that a total repainting before the victory marks is the most likely idea.
Any ideas?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2017, 12:38:19 PM
Something as this.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozedub00-la72guns-lpr.jpg)
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on November 17, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
Hi Massimo,
nice picture of the "parade" livery. It really looks like solid grey. Also the plane at the photo from VDNCH looks solid grey. And yes, it is glossy, it looks clean, repainted and/or polished. Therefore I think that there were no exhaust stains at the fuselage. Only metal panel looks dirty - I think only burned and coroded but agin, no exaust stains.

Plus note, on the starboard side the upper line of the victory starlets is not parallel with the canopy, while on the portside it is perfectly parallel.
It looks sililarly also here:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/tsdak1.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/tsdak2.jpg)
And La-7 looks also solid grey at these photos.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2017, 06:23:15 PM
Hi Misos,
this could be in line with other units painting their plane with solid grey uppersurfaces. It can also be seen as a demonstration that many of those planes were grey and not green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2017, 08:07:38 PM
Hi Misos,
note that the victory starlets on this side are aligned to the ground of the exposure hall. this suggests that they were added in this place, well after the war.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on November 17, 2017, 08:45:46 PM
...The shape of the digits suggests Z.381, but the plane preserved in Monino is built in Z.21.

Hi Massimo,

maybe I missed something, where did you find the info about tha plane in Monino was built in Z.21?

Thanks,
Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on November 17, 2017, 09:25:23 PM
Hi Flavio,
it is from http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozhedub.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozhedub.htm):

"...plane 27, represented as it was probably painted some days after its arrival to 176 giap, with standard red nose and white triangle on the tail.
The blue outline around the number was a factory standard.

The serial of the plane (as now preserved in the Monino museum) is 45210127, where:
45 is for La-7
21 is for Zavod 21 at Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod)
01 is the series (very early)
27 is the unit within the serie, the same of the bort number on the fuselage."

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Flavio on November 18, 2017, 01:11:16 AM
Thank you 66misos,

however what I mean is: several authors like Stankov and Bykov provided the serial number of Kozhedub's La-7 "27" as Nr.45210127, but was someone able to match this serial number with that of the plane displayed in Monino? To say better, the serial number of the plane in Monino has serial number Nr.45210127?

Flavio


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: han9 on November 18, 2017, 11:49:59 AM
Kozhedub's La-7 at Monino

https://ru-aviation.livejournal.com/1509789.html

Lots of good pics including close ups but unfortunately the serial number is neither given in the description nor shown on any of the pics.


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2017, 04:38:39 PM
Quote
Kozhedub's La-7 at Monino

https://ru-aviation.livejournal.com/1509789.html

Lots of good pics including close ups but unfortunately the serial number is neither given in the description nor shown on any of the pics.

Good link.
Note how badly disaligned is the nose. It was not so in the photos of the '50s, but I think to see it so after the repainting of 1967. I wonder if they have damaged it during some transport.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: 66misos on July 20, 2018, 04:58:12 PM
Hi,
this should be Kozhedub's La-7, at least according to the article at https://cont.ws/@dingonord/261429 (https://cont.ws/@dingonord/261429):

(http://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2016/5/image%20%283%29.jpg)

Note white spinner and red triangle on the side of the engine cowling (if it is there) does not have white outline.

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 23, 2018, 10:24:28 PM
Hi Misos,
how strange... no red triangle on the nose at all, nor white area on the tail on the plane on the background.
Is it kmown where and when this photo was taken?
Regards
Massimo