Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
while browsing for additional photos of Klubov's P-39 for my profile:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095644)

I found interesting info - there should be two decorated Klubov's Cobras:
(http://100-bal.ru/pars_docs/refs/121/120545/120545_html_1aa4c2f1.jpg)

and this one with one more victory star:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/06/1338751487_rrrrjo.jpg)

(http://planetavvs.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/klubov2.jpg)
Do you anybody, please, have any other photo of that second Cobra?
Thanks.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
some notes to pictures above:

Klubov came to the 16 giap at the end on May 1943 when the first P-39 N version started to arrive there.
On July 13, 1943 after aerial combat his "Cobra" was so deformed by machine overload that it was not subject to the recovery.
On April 13, 1944 he was awarded HSU for 14 individual and 19 shared victories.

(http://arsenal-info.ru/img/3311635955/i_024.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechkal8.jpg)

(http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/de5/28.jpg)   (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov4.jpg)
On these two photos above it looks like the last digit on the fix part of the tail is "5", not "4" and the last digit on the rudder is "9", not "4". It looks like the Q-15 version is on all photos above.

1.) "29434" represents P-39N-1 s/n: 42-9434, board number "45"
According to http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm) Klubov achieved his 28th, 29th and 30th individual victory on July 16, 1944.

2.) "42589" represents P-39Q-15 s/n: 44-2589, board no. "125"
Klubov achieved his 31st individual victory on August 25, 1944. It was his last victory.
According to the photos above this profile drawn by Igor Zlobin seems to be more reliable.

HOWEVER, Tabachenko writes in his book about 16 giap/giad (p.511): "On August 25, 1944, the pair of fighters from 16 giap got in the air, leader HSU Guard Captain Klubov (P-39N-1 s/n: 42-9434 board number "white 45" and his wingman Ivankov...Klubov shot down Me-110...Alexandr Fedorovich did not know that this was his last victory in WWII...".
On the other side there in no word about P-39Q-15 s/n: 44-2589, board no. "125" in Tabachenko's book.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here is updated profile, although I am not sure about serial/board number vs. number of victory starlets, see my post above:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095639)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
looks good, as usual.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you. :)

If this photo session:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov4.jpg)
happend sometime at the beginning of July 1944, together with Rechkalov's photo session, then there could be something about 26-27 victory stars in nicely symetrical pattern (last row of red-red-white-red-red stars) on that P-39Q-15 "125" ???
I posted question at airforce.ru forum. I am curious for answer(-s).
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,

IMHO 4 photos above were taken in June 1944 and are related to this text published in "Krasnaya Zvezda"on June 15. Note photo correspondent's name: O. Knorring

(http://cs424820.vk.me/v424820078/7712/vC1p1X4r7-0.jpg)

Victories mentioned in "KZ" are scored between May 30 and June 04  (officially 8 personal kills)

As I have already mentioned in the thread about Rechkalov, photo bellow was taken in late June or first days of July  (July 02 most likely!) by photo correspondent I. Ozerskii.

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/foto/16_giap1.jpg)


Photo shoving victories was taken later in September

(http://planetavvs.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/klubov2.jpg)

probably related to following text in "Krasnaya Zvezda"

(http://cs424820.vk.me/v424820078/7719/Ayx1Z-Ng9ho.jpg)

HTH,
KL

 

Hi KL,
thanks a lot for wanderful material. I checked all photos and IMHO:

1.) Klubov has no medal on the right breast pocket, e.g. it is from one photo session:
(http://arsenal-info.ru/img/3311635955/i_024.jpg)
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechkal8.jpg)

2.) Klubov has medal (Guard?) on the right breast pocket, e.g. it is from another photo session:
(http://www.stoletie.ru/upload/iblock/de5/28.jpg)   (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov4.jpg)
and may be it is from this photo session with Rechkalov:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Rechkalov/rechkalov_11b_zpsaevpwgkt.jpg)
Klubov has the same "pilotka" cap, but unfortunately it is not visible whether he has (Guard) medal on his right breast pocket

Regards,
   66misos

Hi KL,
check, please, answer at airforce.ru forum http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/164583.htm (http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/164583.htm)
Two versions of Lenin Order, e.g. two separate photosessions:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/Klubov_Lenin%20Order_zpsiowykph8.jpg)
Seems there were several (or many) photosessions with Klubov.


Hi Massimo,
number "125" really looks darker then white, even darker than yellow serial number on the tail. I do not know, may be red, may be silver?

Klubov and someone's Cobra in the background:
(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Viborg/(150528084646)_hmhm.jpg)

Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
is this the only image showing that number?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
and also this one:
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov4.jpg)
I do not know any other.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
I think red.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
updated WIP - possible appearance from June 1944 with 19 shared and 26 individual victories and red board number "125":

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095645)

Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
I've never said there was one photo session in June-July 1944;  first indication was a different cap that Klubov had (check again my post in the thread about Rechkalov), then two different photo correspondents (Knorring and Ozerskii) in my last post!!!  It is also quite obvious that photo with 50 victory stars belongs to a different period because it includes August victories.

Your (and Messoed"s) analysis of Klubov's medals is quite interesting and valuable.  It looks that there were at least 4 photo sessions at one and the same airfield. On most photos we can recognize quite distinctive "caponiers" covered with grass squares (called "sodding" in North America)

(http://www.clearcutgroup.ca/_img/sod_and_sodding_service.jpg)

According to Tabachenko, in June 1944, 16 giap was based on following two Romanian airfields:

- Stefaneshti Airfield: 11 May to 19 June 1944
- Todireni Airfield: 19 June to 8 July

If we figure out which airfield had those caponiers, we'll be able to date photos more accurately.

Regards,
KL     
 

Hi Misos
seems good.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
another interesting photo (from Messoed at airforce.ru forum) of decorated Cobra with the red spinner from 16 giap, 1944 year:
(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1009066728&original=1&compatible=1)
When looking at it and at Cobras of Rechkalov, Glinka, Klubov (and probably others) I do not understand stories about Pokryshkin how he did not want to distinguish his Cobra from others and therefore he did not paint victory stars on it. On the other side, he quite usually flew Rechkalov's highly decorated Cobra (in Tabachenko book).
Regards,
   66misos


EDIT:
It looks like N-version (not Q-version) and it should belong to A.V. Fedorov (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all12/fedor_av.htm), who recieved his HSU on April 13, 1944.
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all12/fedor_a3.jpg)

Hi,
here is summary of photos showing board number "125" and tail:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095535)

I have a feeling that the red number without white outline (no outline is visible on the photo) a bit disappears on the OD background:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095645)

So for comparision here is an alternative with the glossy silver board number:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095646)

and the alternative with the light blue AMT-7 board number:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095647)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, I don't know... it disappears on your color drawing, but the shade on the photos is the same of the red star, on both photos although they render the red star in different ways.
I would suggest to use more saturate red.
Of course, blue and silver are possibilties.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I also do not know. I originally thought this will be easy and fast project... Ha-ha.
Anyway, here are color photos of I-16 in AII Green, which is surely darker than weathered OD:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/colorn14.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/i-16color.jpg)

The little red details are visible so-so without white outline. And red over brownish weathered OD is even less contrasting. ???
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
you haven't to refer to the impression given by color images. Anything that can be said oif the shade of the number, it can be said of the shade of the red star on the same photo.
Besides, the outline of the star seems overposed to the 1 of 125. My impression is that both rhe number and the star have to be a bit larger, the top of the star looks very high on the fuselage, and its upper curvature should be visible on the profile.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
IMHO size of the number "125" is OK - note the lines around it - the doors to radio compartment - vertical line is to the right, e.g. digit "5" is inside the doors and horizontal line is going through the upper part of the digits. Lower part of the digits is somewhere around the door hinges.
Regarding red star - you are right, it should be bigger and it probably should go over digit "1".
I do not want endlesly speculate. Based on photos we currently have I vote for the red number, the red paint was widely available. I did not see any silver decoration / marking on the aircraft from the 16 giap.
And IMHO, the blue color is even less probably - no evidence of using blue color for board numbers in VVS at all, except that "crocodile-mouth" Yak painting.
Thanks for comments.
Regards,
    66misos


EDIT:
While looking for info about Kozhedub I just found this BINGO photo in Czech magazine Plastic Kit Revue no.4 from year 1991:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095908)
with description: Technician serving Klubov's P-39N from 16 giap, year 1944.

Interesting facts:
- there is 49 victory stars, the last one, the 50th one from August 25, 1944 is missing,
- there is red star with white outline on the upperwing,
- it should be N-version. And yes, the small vent on the front bottom fuselage between propeller and spinner is missing, see green elipse on the photo bellow:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Rechkalov/150501_Rechkalov_02_zpsjvxibdxn.jpg)

so this profile should be correct:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095644)

Hi,
thanks to Messoed from airforce.ru forum we have additional data about Cobra P-39Q-15 "125" - it came to the 16 giap on March 21, 1944 and was lost on April 16, 1945, then already flown by Petr Tabachenko.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi,
seems no additional substantial info will appear, so following profiles could be considered as finished:

1.) Klubov's P-39N-1 "45" s/n 42-9434 cuold be produced sometime about February 1943, when white star in the blue disc was standard USAAF insignia. Here on this photo we can see darker disk under the star:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095908)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1096502)


USAAF modified national insignias - white rectangle/bar was added on each side of the blue circle with a red outline surrounding the entire insignia on June 29, 1943. Approximately month latter, on August 14, 1943 the red outline was replaced by blue one.
So all Cobras produced after August 14, 1943 should have either new standard USAAF insignias with white bar on sides or Bell "transport" insignia, e.g. white circle with red star inside. Not only blue disc with.

2.) Klubov's P-39Q-15 "125" number 44-2589 could be produced sometime around December 1943, e.g. long enough after August.
This photos show darker disc under the star, e.g. IMHO it is white disc repainted to green one.
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095535)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1096503)

regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
If you have positively established that Airacobra No "45" was actually a P-39N and had 50 victory markings - why do you still have victory markings on No "125"?   ???

In my opinion, if Klubov's plane had any victory markings in June 1944 (at the time when he was photographed for "Krasnaya Zvezda" and "Ogonek" magazines), he would have been photographed with his own plane.  IMHO, since his plane hasn't been marked, he was photographed by "other's planes"...

So, markings probably appeared later in July or in August, most likely just before Lwow-Sandomir operation (August 1944).


Also, red for number "125" looks quite unlikely  :-\  If it was 1941, yes red was common.  But in 1944, only white or silver...

Regards,
KL

Hi Misos,
I think that the disk under the star of 145, green or blue, should be visibly darker than the OD background.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
thank for your comments.

KL, good point, you are probably right. That is why I already wrote:


I checked again all pictures and yes, on all pictures where Klubov has HSU Gold medal and Lenin Order with the banner, there is some Cobra without visible victory stars:
(http://arsenal-info.ru/img/3311635955/i_024.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/rechkal8.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov4.jpg)

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Viborg/(150528084646)_hmhm.jpg)

So it would be probably better to remove victory stars from the profile of "125".

Regarding the color of number "125", well, I really do not know. But when I see decreased picture of Cobra with "125" and I try to imagine it in the (fast) movement, then red "125" is much less recognizable than silver "125".
So silver "125" would be the final option. ???

Hi Massimo,
I made that circle a bit darker green.

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1096739)

Regards,
   66misos

Very well done work 66misos,

thak you for sharing.

Flavio

Massimo,
A lot of new information and analysis about Klubov's Airacobra have been posted here in last few days.  IMHO, it would be nice and useful to separate posts starting from the post # 146 separate thread called "Klubov's Airacobras" or something like that.  This will make search easier, if nothing else.
Regards,
KL

Hi Massimo,
Move, please, posts about Klubov from VVS Cobras into this thread as proposed  by KL.
Thank you.
   66misos

Hi,
it's done.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
many thanks.
Regards,
   66misos


EDIT:
He are photos of Klubov's La-7 s/n: 38100554 (Tabachenko, p.413) after the accident and subsequent death of Klubov in November 1944:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1097097)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1097096)

and the decal sheet in 1/72 with Klubov's La-7 made by Igor Zlobin at http://fighters.front.ru/str/mod.htm (http://fighters.front.ru/str/mod.htm)
(http://fighters.front.ru/deca/23232/72002.jpg)

Hi Misos,
white line under the "pilotka" should be much wider than what you have:  its as wide as white outline on fuselage red star, or as wide as line used to write yellow tail numbers.
Check the photos:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1095535)

Regards,
KL

Hi Misos, thank you very much for these images.
I think that this plane had red spinner and ring, as written into the text, and white-red tips of the propeller (the white line on it doesn't correspond to a bend line).
It seems the type with the shutters on the intakes, I think to see a darker zone corresponding to the grid in front of the landing gear bay.
The wide stars seem those of Z.381.
I wonder the reason of the irregularities of the shades  on the number, it looks made by stencil (normal, in factory) and then retouched with a darker shade on the junctions only. That is unusual.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,

to Massimo,
Pokryshkin's La-7 seems to be again interesting topic worth separate thread - so I made it in Lavochkin section at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2075.msg17170#msg17170 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2075.msg17170#msg17170)
I have posted there additional info and pictures.

When looking at these pictures:
(http://s3.postimage.org/b3jwksyqp/100.jpg)
I realised that they painted black outline around the red star, although it already was not standard. IMHO it was due to the low contrast/visibility of the red star on the OD background, e.g. red alone was not an ideal option for marking on OD surface.

to KL,
thanks for comment. I corrected it. Hope this is really final version:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1102736)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here I made 3-view of Klubov's Cobra "45" to show red stars on the wings:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1107927)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
it's good as usual, but  a small part of the upper view is missing.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thanks for comment. Picture in my Reply #33 above is corrected now.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I have found an interesting photo of Klubov's Kobra at http://www.soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/klubov.htm (http://www.soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/klubov.htm)

(http://www.soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/klubov10.jpg):
Interesting details:
- board number looks like "30", not "45" as usually drawn and mentioned in e.g. Tabachenko's book about 16 giap,
- serial number in the tail starts with digits 29...,
- inner wing gun is missing in the wings, there is only a hole visible on the right wing,
- leading edge of the tail is repainted (after repair?),
- the original dark starlet without white outline in the bottom row is repainted white

Compare it with this photo:
(http://www.soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/klubov2.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
the third number on the tail looks 1. The front of the fin is not only darker, but glossy too. Could it be red?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
the weathered Olive Drab is hard matt and relatively light and brownish. IMHO the tail leading edge is painted semigloss green AMT-4 after some repair.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
enlarging the photo, one can see that the area is highly gloss with a sharp white reflection line, besides its edges are very sharp and straight, This suggests a marking, not a retouch.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
there was no VVS Cobra with serial 27..., so I corrected it on 29... With your 1 the seria number could be something between 29127 and 29199, e.g. version N-1.

IMHO leading edge of the tail is simply repair/repaint, similar to this:
(http://i.imgur.com/bnJsJ2v.jpg)

regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
yes, the painting on the tail is similar, but how do we know for sure that this one is a green repainting? Again, it looks a mark.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I have found interesting info in A.I. Tabachenko's book «Покрышкинский авиаполк. «Нелакированные» боевые хроники. 16-й гвардейский истребительский авиационный полк в боях с люфтваффе. 1943-1945»

"ПРИКАЗ
16 ГВАРДЕЙСКОМУ ИСТРЕБИТЕЛЬНОМУ АВИАПОЛКУ
№ 028
4 марта 1944 г.
Действующая Армия
СОДЕРЖАНИЕ: О выплате денежного вознаграждения летному составу полка за 30, 50, 80 успешно проведенных боевых вылетов без поломок, аварий и потерь ориентировки.

...6.) Командиру эскадрильи – гвардии капитану Клубову Александру Федоровичу, за успешно проведенные 50 боевых вылетов с 1.9. по 1.10.43 года и 1.9. по 3.12.43 года 80 боевых вылетов 1.9. по 6.11.43 года на самолете «Аэрокобра» № 29157, выплатить денежное вознаграждение в сумме 7000 рублей.

7.) Командиру АЭ – гвардии капитану Еремину Павлу Кузмичу, за успешно проведенные 80 боевых вылетов с 1.9. по 1.12.43 года на самолете «Аэрокобра» 29146, выплатить денежное вознаграждение в сумме 4000 рублей..."

It is and Order from March 4, 1944, according to which Klubov was paid 7000 rubels for 50+80 combat flights from Sep 1 till Dec 3, 1943 at his Aerocobra No. 29157.

The photo of the Cobra board number "30" shows digits 291... from the seroal  number on the tail.
So Cobra with board number "30" could have the serial number 29157.

Regars,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
this finding is very interesting, I hope that a profile will be done of this interesting plane.
Have you found further images of planes with the sharp painting or repainting on the fin leading edge?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

another Cobra with repainted leading edge or front part of the tail is Sukhov's Cobra:

(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/Pict03.jpg)

There was potentially very good reason to repaint it, more at https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/sukhov.htm (https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/sukhov.htm)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
have you reason to think that some metal panel was added there? It doesn't appear on your drawings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
metal plates - factory made reinforcement of the rear fuselage was done on the late Q Cobras, see more at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11120#msg11120 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11120#msg11120).
Klubov's Cobra is N version and Sukhov's Cobra is some Q version, however nothing like local made reinforcement is visible on the photos of those two Cobras. Therefore I did not make it on my drawings.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
in consideration of the fact that it's unlikely that a new plate was added on the fin, I don't see resemblance between the repainting of the plane of Sukhov and the ones with the sharp painting.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo.
I am sorry but I did not understand what planes and what metal plates you meant. I thought you meant rear fuselage reinforcement.
You asked for another sharp painting or repainting. So I provided another photo of repainting, even not so sharp.
I know repainting on the Klubov's Cobra looks differently from repainting on Sukhov's Cobra but they both are repaintings of the leading edge of the tail.
Of course I am not sure about the particular color. However I never met any info or photo supporting thoughts about red leading edge on any plane in 16 giap. Therefore I consider different green color more probable (although not 100% sure) than red color for leading edge of the tail on Klubov's Cobra.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here is the profile showing how Klubov's Cobra "White 30", s/n: 29157 could look like:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1414531)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
nice work. Will you update the page on P-39s?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you. I will sent you an article - summary of several previous posts in this thread, hopefully next week.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
very well. I'm updating the page on Galchenko including all the considerations emerged in recent years.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,

here are additional info to "close the circle" Klubov and this Cobra "30", photographed sometime in the summer 1944:

1.) Klubov tragically died on November 1, 1944 when after landing his new La-7 fighter skidded off the airfield and nosed over.

2.) A.I. Tabachenko's book « Pokryshkinskiy aviapolk - Nelakirovannye boevye chroniki (Pokryshkin Regiment - unvarnished combat chronicles) 1943-1945»
"15 декабря (1944) гвардии лейтенант Иван Онищенко, выполняя упражнение № 37 и 43 КБПИА-44, во время стрельбы с самолета по наземным целям...самолет пролетел еще около 250 м, ударился правым крылом, а затем носом о землю и разрушился. Летчик погиб, самолет был полностью разбит...катастрофа самолета «Аэрокобра» (Р-39 № 29157, с мотором «Аллисон» Е-19 № 160234), пилотируемого командиром звена 16-го гиап гвардии лейтенантом Иваном Онищенко..."

On December 15 (1944) Guard Lieutenant Ivan Onishchenko, performing exercise No. 37 and 43 of the KBPIA-44, while shooting from an airplane onto the ground targets ... the plane flew about 250m more, hit the ground with right wing, then with the nose and crashed on the ground. The pilot was killed, the plane was completely destroyed ... the crash of the Aerocobra (P-39 No. 29157, with the Allison E-19 engine No. 160234), piloted by the commander of the 16th Guy Guard Lieutenant Ivan Onishchenko ...

One can assume that this Cobra, then flown by Onishchenko, did not have its nose decorated with Klubov's victories.
Note the victory starlets were painted strictly on the plate. So the plate with Klubov's starlets could be simply removed and replaed by another, starlets-free plate.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
interesting, this seems to confirm that the planes were not individual, and the victories plate was moved from one plane to another.
Regards
Massimo