Print Page - P-39 Red-nose Cobras from 129 giap

Hi,
here I started work on P-39 flown by E.P. Marinskij from 129 giap. Pictures are linked from scalemodels.ru:

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2015/02/1425038406_1.png)

(http://www.e-reading.life/illustrations/37/37339-_20.png)

(http://www.e-reading.link/illustrations/37/37339-_5.png)

(http://www.e-reading.link/illustrations/37/37339-_4.png)

His plane is usually drawn with blue-painted gun cover on the nose (and blue disc under the star).

Still some confusion on the picture - mostly: were red stars on the upperwing or not?
Red star on the fuselage looks like "US version" without thin red outline, although local Soviet repainting cannot be excluded.
Regards,
66misos

Hi Massimo,
so I browsed google, yandex, this forum and made this overview, how could red stars on the late Cobras looks like:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1117101)
Sorry for a big picture, but I wanted to have all options in one place.

Red stars could be also on the upperwings (again, it is about late Cobras) but they were not so often (and moreover without white disc) as the upperwings without red stars.

Interesting detail - in red stars were painted already in US (and probably also by US technicians in Abadan), the original USAF marking or "Bell Transport" marking was repainted by original US paints (OD and NG) and red stars had only white outline.
If "Bell Transport" marking was repainted by VVS technicians, white discs were repainted most probably by Soviet paints (green AMT-4, light blue AMT-7) and red stars had standard white and red outline.
Of course, there were also local exceptions like other Soviet paints, red outline added to the In-US-painted red stars with only white outline etc.

Red star was repainted original white star and white disc had the same diameter as original blue disc. Therefore added white outline (masked stripe of the white disc alongside the red star arms plus a little white triangle added outside the disc) increased total size of the star, which exceed quite far from the original disc and made it quite a big one.

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/P39-6.jpg)

(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39007.jpg)

Regards,
66misos

Quote from: 66misos on August 17, 2015, 06:48:50 PM

Interesting detail - in red stars were painted already in US (and probably also by US technicians in Abadan), the original USAF marking or "Bell Transport" marking was repainted by original US paints (OD and NG) and red stars had only white outline.
If "Bell Transport" marking was repainted by VVS technicians, white discs were repainted most probably by Soviet paints (green AMT-4, light blue AMT-7) and red stars had standard white and red outline.
Of course, there were also local exceptions like other Soviet paints, red outline added to the In-US-painted red stars with only white outline etc.

Red star was repainted original white star and white disc had the same diameter as original blue disc. Therefore added white outline (masked stripe of the white disc alongside the red star arms plus a little white triangle added outside the disc) increased total size of the star, which exceed quite far from the original disc and made it quite a big one.

Following photo and caption refer to ALSIB planes in general:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/L-L_markings-Warplanes_to_Alaska_zps6psmqw40.jpg)

From this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WHE3305GL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

In my understanding, the author says that white discs appeared in January 1944 and they were replaced by standard VVS Red Star (outlined with white and thin red lines) from late September 1944.

Somewhere in the book, can't remember where, author says that stars with white discs had been painted in the Buffalo factory and that VVS red stars had been painted by Americans either in Great Falls, Montana, or in Alaska (i.e. either at the beginning of the route or at its end).

Normally, P-39s would have reached SSSR with american painted VVS red stars, not with "transit markings". White discs were rare in VVS - probably a few airplanes that reached Alaska with white discs and then were rushed to SSSR.

White discs may actually indicate airplanes that were test flown in US and then were sent to SSSR by ships - this may explain why P-39 preserved in Finland has markings with white discs... ??? ???

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
thank you for interesting picture and info.
My understanding is following (at least regarding ASLIB route):

1.) US factories started with red stars without black outlines:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/videoalaska.jpg)

2.) then continued with white discs under red stars:
P-39Q-25 en route to Alaska:
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh2/AtchamTower/P-39Q.jpg)

Delivered also via Southern route to Abadan, example Sukhov's P-30 "50",
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AS/AS91-1/4-1.jpg)

3.) And final US version was red star with white outline, without thin red outline, as example late-war P-63:
(http://i2.wp.com/thisiswarblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/p39-kingcobras-for-russia-px800.jpeg)
(http://p63kingcobra.com/p63_images/p-63_project/Bell%20P-63%20kingcobra_wings%202.jpg)

Plus there were sometime/somewhere deviation from these "standards".

P-39s have reached SSSR mostly with american painted VVS red stars, less frequent was "transit markings" with the white discs.
And rarely P-39s came with USAF marking which was locally repainted:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/repaintmarks.jpg)

P-39 assembled in Abadan from parts delivered in crates by ships:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/repaintedstar.jpg)

Quote from: KL on August 18, 2015, 03:20:22 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WHE3305GL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
...White discs may actually indicate airplanes that were test flown in US and then were sent to SSSR by ships...

No, see picture in your post ;)
Regards,
66misos

Hi,
another remarks at VIF airforce.ru forum - Marinskij's P-39 should look same like N.I. Glotov's P-39 from the same 129 giap and the same period:
(http://airfighters.ru/glotov_3.jpg)
e.g. red propeller spinner and front part of the nose untill guns.

On this photo:
(http://www.e-reading.link/illustrations/37/37339-_5.png)
is not visible repainting standard USAF marking that time (white rectangles on sides) and it is not evident, whether red star has also red outline or not.

EDIT - WIP picture deleted.

Regards,
66misos

Hi Misos,

It looks that you already have a clear understanding about Airacobra's markings. :)

(http://i2.wp.com/thisiswarblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/p39-kingcobras-for-russia-px800.jpeg)

BTW, photo above is irrelevant for Airacobra's markings.... Last Airacobras were rolled out from Buffalo factory in June 1944 and they were flown to Alaska in August 1944. Swich to standard VVS markings was made at the end of September, on P-63 Kingcobras. So, last Airacobras must have had "transit markings" (red stars in white disks).

Question for you: out of 4446 Airacobras delivered to SSSR, more than half were delivered through ALSIB (2618 planes exactly...). My guess is that at least half of those Alsib Airacobras had been delivered between January 1944 and August 1944 and that all had white disks. Some of those delivered through Southern route had white discs too. Again, my guess is that at least 1500 Airacobras had "transit markings".

So, who overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians? ???

Regards,
KL

Quote from: KL on August 19, 2015, 01:16:15 AM

Hi Misos,
It looks that you already have a clear understanding about Airacobra's markings. :)
...
So, who overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians? ???

Hi KL,
unfotunately not yet :-( Just trying to make it clear. Your post helps a lot.
That question is really good and it returns us back to December 2012 http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588)
I would say that they both. I would modify your question - Who to a greater extent overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians?
According to the level/quality/style of repainting visible on the photos I would say that Russians.

Hi Massimo,
According to M.Bykov and Alex from VIF at least some planes in 129 giap had previously that planel painted white and lately it was repainted green, therefore freshly painted panel is darker than weathered Cobra. Question is - OD or AMT-4?

Here is link http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/68/ (http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/havarie-a-sestrely/detail/68/) to the Czech page (in Czech language) about P-39 from 129 giap crashed in Czech Republic on May 8, 1945.
Crash site was found as well as some debris. This one:
(http://www.leteckabadatelna.cz/uploads/II%20sv%20.%20v%C3%A1lka/Rusov%C3%A9/P-39/P-39%20Kl%C3%ADny/P1210140a.jpg)
nicely shows that the red star had white and thin red outline.

Regards,
66misos

Another book about ALSIB route, this time more focused on Siberian side:

(http://irbis.kraslib.ru/img/vv/K414115/img045.jpg)

photos from this book, all taken in Soviet Union:

(http://www.ag24.ru/upload/images/s640x480.jpeg)

(http://www.ag24.ru/upload/images/s640x4801.jpeg)

(http://media01.ysia.ru/index.php?r=single/photoByWidth&id=35839&width=1000)

(http://www.gazetayakutia.ru/media/k2/galleries/543/3.jpg)

Quote from: 66misos on August 19, 2015, 02:44:47 PM

Quote

So, who overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians?

I would say that they both. I would modify your question - Who to a greater extent overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians?
According to the level/quality/style of repainting visible on the photos I would say that Russians.

Huh... photos above confirm your understanding... IMHO, if white discs had been overpainted, that was done by Russians.

HTH,
KL

Hi Misos

Quote

According to M.Bykov and Alex from VIF at least some planes in 129 giap had previously that planel painted white and lately it was repainted green, therefore freshly painted panel is darker than weathered Cobra. Question is - OD or AMT-4?

Interesting for some profile.
What I see on the photo, that could be evidenced on the drawing, is that there is an horizontal demarcation line on the nose, behind the door in the lower part that can't be explained as shadow or reflection. I don't know if the fresh part is the lower or the upper one.
Regards
Massimo

Hi, thanks for responses.

KL,
and now, basicaly, only one thing left - the answer for question whether Olive Drab and Neutral Grey paints were delivered (together with Cobras) to SU and if yes, then if those US paints were available also to front units, not only in Vaenga, Abadan or same ZAPs. May be the answer could be in those books. ???

Massimo,
I am afraid I do not understand what exactly you mean and on what photo:

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori on August 20, 2015, 08:30:01 AM

...there is an horizontal demarcation line on the nose, behind the door in the lower part that can't be explained as shadow or reflection...

Could you, please, marked it?

Regards,
66misos

Quote from: KL on August 20, 2015, 02:16:06 AM

Quote from: 66misos on August 19, 2015, 02:44:47 PM

So, who overpainted all those white discs, Americans or Russians?

IMHO, if white discs had been overpainted, that was done by Russians.

Hi all,

I have seen the Hyryl? (earlier Tikkakoski) Airacobra also before the restoration and for my eyes it looks like the US bars were overpainted with US paints in the States and the white discs with Soviet greens on the upper surfaces and fuselage sides. Upper surfaces overpainting colour has always looked a bit strange for me. Myself I don't buy the US insignia Blue on these discs.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi AaCee,
I agree with the late Cobras. I think that if Bell factory was in time, they painted white discs with red stars. But if they were in some stress or there was presure to ship more Cobras, they took Cobras with already painted USAF insignias and still in USA (in the factory?) they repainted it with original OD and NG to Bell export standards, e.g. no insignias on the upperwings and two star on the underwings:

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_147.jpg)

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_157.jpg)

(http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/i_grinberg_p39q_111.jpg)
And after the transit white discs were repainted green locally in SU.
Regards,
66misos

Hi Massimo,
IMHO that darker area is not caused (only) by curvature of the fuselage, but also by grease and/or oil leakage from the gun compartmen through panel lines.

USAF marking repainted by original US paints OD and NG, originally white plate on the sides of the front fuselage repainted in 129 giap by VVS paints - green AMT-4 or 4BO or...
Serial number and soldiers nicely censored:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118180)

Well, this should be the final picture:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118339)

Regards,
66misos

Quote from: AC26 on August 20, 2015, 09:49:53 PM

I have seen the Hyryl? (earlier Tikkakoski) Airacobra also before the restoration and for my eyes it looks like the US bars were overpainted with US paints in the States and the white discs with Soviet greens on the upper surfaces and fuselage sides. Upper surfaces overpainting colour has always looked a bit strange for me. Myself I don't buy the US insignia Blue on these discs.

Thanks AaCee, what you are saying about the Hyryl? Airacobra confirms our conslusion about the 1944 "transit markings". I also doubt that earlier, 1943 VVS Airacobras had blue disks - those blue disks were overpainted in OD/NG by the Americans (in Abadan, Great Falls, Fairbanks, Buffalo factory etc.)

Cheers,
KL

Hi,
yes, there is no reason to expect blue discs on Cobras produced after July/August 1943, when new USAF marking was introduced. I agree, that original USAF marking was in vast majority repainted still by Americans and replaced by "transit" marking.
Also here at Marinskij's Cobra is nicely visible late-war USAF marking (disc plus side bars) repainted most probably OD by Americans:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118396)

However, IMHO, earlier Cobras are different story. I think this is original blue disc (it is too dark/contrast for OD and to nice/regular for Russian repainting)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/reckastar.jpg)
Although I think blue discs were not so often in the reality like painted on profiles.

regards,
66misos

Hi,
here are another two Cobras from 129 giap:

1.) board number "7", N.I. Glotov:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1119184)
Interesting detail - a little white plane painted aside the victory starlets. However, it is not confirmed (although quite possible) that it is the same Glotov's Cobra on the both images:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1119185)

2.) board number "31", pilot unknown:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1119186)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1119187)

Regards,
66misos

Hi Misos and KL,

Thank you for your replies.

Quote from: 66misos on August 20, 2015, 10:08:03 PM

I agree with the late Cobras. I think that if Bell factory was in time, they painted white discs with red stars. But if they were in some stress or there was presure to ship more Cobras, they took Cobras with already painted USAF insignias and still in USA (in the factory?) they repainted it with original OD and NG to Bell export standards, e.g. no insignias on the upperwings and two star on the underwings:

Hyryl? plane has red stars on both wings on both sides. It is quite nonstandard then.

Quote from: KL on August 22, 2015, 02:16:36 AM

Quote from: AC26 on August 20, 2015, 09:49:53 PM

I have no clue which way it was delivered.

I wrote about odd upper surface overpainting colour. My mistake: should be lower surfaces overpainting. It is strange green colour.

Cheers,

AaCee

Hi,

Quote from: AC26 on August 25, 2015, 06:50:05 PM

Hyryl? plane has red stars on both wings on both sides. It is quite nonstandard then...

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix03.jpg)

Yes, it was non-standard, but it was not so rare:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_58b_zps13d1a724.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39%20Airacobra/P-39_Mix04.jpg)

Quote from: AC26 on August 25, 2015, 06:50:05 PM

...lower surfaces overpainting. It is strange green colour.

Regarding Cobra "26" in Finland:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12233#msg12233 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12233#msg12233)
(http://s4.postimg.org/6sqtwc2gt/image.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/26.jpg)
Wings of the plane ("26") are from 44-3225 which was #25...

Quote from: Saivila on May 06, 2013, 11:12:19 AM

...the disks under a stars, are painted on Finnish enamels during the restoration. Even if they look like original...

Red star sometime with white disc, sometime without ??? What was original war-time version?
Plus I would not be surprised if color of new paints used for repainting was quite similar to original OD/NG but they differently degraded over a long time period and they look so strange now.

Here is an example when original older USAF marging (blue disc without side bars) was repainted by Soviets - blue disc repainted green (AMT-4/4BO) and white star repainted red. Bell "transport marking" was excluded:
(http://i.pics.livejournal.com/as_1919/47713503/871/original.jpg)

regards,
66misos

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lend-lease planes => Topic started by: 66misos on August 16, 2015, 09:15:35 PM