Sovietwarplanes

Hello I will soon start a new project, as always a normandie-niemen's plane, the de la Poype's yak-
We know three pics of it:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/06/09//15060907023018634313346343.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502818634313522742.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

as you see hard to find the paint scheme.

I looked for other NN  yak-1's pics to have an idea, but there are not good quality pics...

those are the best:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110571618634313522746.jpg)
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110571718634313522747.jpg)
not very helpfull...

i'm loocking for VVS pics too....

Anyway, I know about the 6 may 1941 official directive:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/template-single.jpg)

in your website , massimo you show correct official scheme pics, and inverted colors same scheme one.

Have this scheme been applied (on yak-1) as strictly as has been the 1943 one?

i'm interested in any information about the 1941 scheme on yak-1, thanks!

Xan



 

Hi,
one more photo here:
http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color5.html (http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color5.html)
A part of the wing looks very light.
I don't know for the camo.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,

it would help if you date photos (when and where...)

(http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/color2/photo_yak-1b_05-5.jpg)

Note that the fuselage star doesn't have white outlines - it means that red stars have been painted before September 1943.  It has to be one of Yak-1s model 1943 (aka Yak-1b or Yak-1M) and those were all camouflaged in standard black-green scheme.  Like these:

(http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/color2/photo_yak-1b_40.jpg)  

Plane No 6 above also had shark mouth.  it was flown by another N-N pilot, Albert Durand:

(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B9P8RJ/commander-of-the-normandie-niemen-squadron-major-jean-louis-tulasne-B9P8RJ.jpg)

(http://www.1945-2010.info/media/big_img/photo_10_4.jpg)

(http://www.aresgames.eu/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/610x_Wings-of-Glory_Yak-1_Durand.jpg)

(http://www.aresgames.eu/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/610x250_Wings-of-Glory_Yak-1_Durand.jpg)


IMHO, it's white MK-7 applied in irregular patches, like Galchenko's LaGG-3.


 

Cheers,
KL

I don't know when and wwhere were those pics taken...
but it's in summer 1943...
of course, camo is green and black , but I don't know about the scheme...
as far as I know there was no standart scheme...
I tried to look for ather NN yak-1 to inspirate myself but there no relevant pics...

the firt pic you (and massimo) shows is not the de la Poype plane. there is a confusion with this picture, but persons are diferent, in the same propagandistic situation

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/06/09//15060907023018634313346343.jpg)

yes with Mah? and Lefevre at his side, what a team!
infortunaly, camo scheme can't be see in this picture...

I don't believe too much at white stripe like a lagg-3, we never see that in a yak...
but the white stripe in the nose are quite strange. it's often say that it's winter camo residue, but it's not sure and not very logical i my opinion...(but I have not better explication...)

Xan

Looks a bit out of season. Can the white thing on the ground and on the cover be snow? It's somewhat uncoherent with dresses and with sitting playing chess. The light stripes and patching on the nose could be an attempt to match some animal related to mouth and eyes. One of the planes seem to have felin moustaches painted on.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,

I have checked internet and my books and it looks that this is early spring 1943 - very beginning of the GC "Normandie" combat employment...

Following photo is dated "February-March 1943" Ivanovo east of Moscow where French group had 3-month training on Yak-1s.  Note Yak-1s  in all white winter camouflage:

(http://iv-schools.ru/uploads/files/normandy-neman/original/6135-8457-5201.jpg)

after the training, Normandie squadron was sent to the front and became operational on March 22, 1943.  It was based on Polotnyaniy Zavod airfield (Kaluga region).  It shared airfield with Pe-2s of the 261 bap:

(http://gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/34046/1285222514/normandie_niemen_polotniany.jpg)

Check this link http://galyagorshenina.livejournal.com/52727.html and you will find exact date when French and Soviet pilots were photographed with 261 bap Pe-2 and white Yak-1s in background:

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/791441/791441_original.jpg)

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/791738/791738_original.jpg)

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/792004/792004_original.jpg)

It says April 8th, 1943. Note that the ground was still covered in snow!  Also note remnants of the winter camouflage on Pe-2 (white MK-7 had just been washed of the plane)...

From these photos you can see that Yak-1s remained in white winter camouflage at least till early April 1943.

IMHO, we can see snow on the ground on this photo too:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

Say, mid-April, it was cold enough for patches of snow on the ground and warm enough for jackets...  :)

Another clue: on several photos with Durand we can see Normandie's first commander Jean Tulasne.  He was KIA in mid-July.  So, photos of shark-mouthed Yak-1s are most likely made in spring 1943.  Light patches on de la Poype's Yak-1 could well be remnants of the white winter camouflage!!!  

HTH,
KL

Looks persuasive.
A note for Misos: in the same page there is also a partial image of a P-39 with apparently disruptive camouflage and US serial. Too partial for a profile, I fear.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/785722/785722_original.jpg (http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/785722/785722_original.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Thank you Kontantin to take time and search those pics.
The pics with the pe-2 are taken in the very first operation of normandie niemen in Polotniany field.
I knew only the first pics, the three others are wonderfull! they will go to my archives at once!
according to the regiment notebook, there were operation with P-2 the 4, 5 and 6 of avril but not the 8. but it doesn't matter.
I will like
I knew that the yaks lost their winter camouflage in the last week of april 43.

Xan

I find more details about those pics.

the Pe-2 belongs to the 261BAP and the pics seems to have been taken in the 5th of april. (perhaps the 8th in the orthodoxe calendar?)

here are two more pics:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/28//15082810181418634313540604.jpg)

the yak-1 seems to be the Tulasne's red 10.

here is Tulasne, with Dymtchenko comandant:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/28//15082810181418634313540603.jpg)

it's a long time I want to do a Pe-2
those pe-2 could be in model project. But I don't know very much about Pe-2 different versions
if someone does know something about this period 261 BAP pe-2 i'm interested too.
I imagine them green and black , and perhaps no machine guns behind?

Xan

Hi Xan,

thanks for the interesting photos!  Ground looks waterlogged and muddy, not covered in snow on most of those photos with Pe-2.  Thawing started on March 26th according to "French Eagles, Soviet Heroes" book...

Following text from "French Eagles, Soviet Heroes" book fits almost perfectly with a photo from your first post:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Normandie%2017%20April%201943_zpsegvwudnd.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

This would be the first combat action of the "Normandie" squadron together with 18 giap Yak-7s.  It was April 17, 1943, Mosalsk airfield.

Two photos from Yak-1 book from S. Kuznetsov:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Yak-1b%20Yauza_zpsb40f5nom.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi mister K!
I'm reading again de la Poype's memories:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dqfAN5iPL._SX306_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
He writes it  in 2007, but the reminds are quite precise.

about the wather of the day of 5th of april , he says: "the sky is low with big black clouds. the temprature increase have accelerated the thaw, wich is very impressive..."


I don't thing it's really the first operation with the 18GIAP, because in is big talking about an operation the 3rd of march, he says his mecanic, Marcelinhave just painted the shark mouth insperated by the flying tigers...
so this pic has been taken surely after the 3rd of March...

I'm trying to put in a time line the de la Poype first campaign.

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/29//15082904020318634313542913.jpg)

Xan

Hi Xan,


Would you say march or may ? You wrote march in your post but in your timeline, you says may... It's important ! ;)

Couldn't be Yaks washed just after the Pe-2s in the same first days of april ?

Pascal

Hi Xan,


this all makes sense:  the thaw started at the end of March and it took few weeks for all that snow to melt. It was wet, muddy, slushy and with patches of snow throughout April.  Patches of snow were possible even in early May.

that said, photo below has to be dated as April or early May

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

there is clearly snow on the ground and there is absolutely no way that the photo was taken in June as your timeline suggests.  You should move that photo in April or early May and it has to be under Mosalsk airfield...  :)

In books that I have, 17 April action is described as a joint operation with 18 giap:  6 "Normandie" Yak-1s and 6 18 giap Yak-7s.
3 May action is described as a patrol: only Lefevre's and de la Poype's Yak-1s .  18 giap Yak-7s are not mentioned at all...

Regardless of dates, which are actually very close, and evidence from de la Poype's memoirs (white winter camouflage washed end of April and shark mouth painted just before May 3rd,), I still believe that lighter patches on de la Poype's Yak-1 are remnants of the winter camouflage.  Couple of weeks are acceptable accuracy for memoirs written 60 years later, winter camouflage may have been removed gradually etc.

Regards,
KL

Pascal , you know me don't you? of course it's may and not march...
No I thing the washing have done in Mosalsk...

I didn't want to place it in june at all , it's just because ther was there a place to put the pic...

that's right (I have the normandie ORB book)
(http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/276/373/377_001.jpg?v=11)
I put the pic with the shark mouth nearthe 3 may. the operation with the 18GIAP is indeed the 17th...

I agree woth you. I think I will put some white remnants in the wings too...

Xan

Hi Xan,

it looks that Normandie squadron received 10 Yak-1s in January while training in Ivanovo.  7 of these planes are visible on this photo:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PUUx_GaUfJ8/VEVZ18GSuyI/AAAAAAAAQCM/MZxjkouY6RA/s1600/0534-Yakovlev%2BYak-1M.jpg)

Most of these planes are all-white, but there is one in white blotches and one in "summer" camouflage.  Do you have more photos from Ivanovo showing those two planes?

Also, on March 16th, just before leaving Ivanovo, "Normandie" received 4 Yak-1s more.  Do you have any photos of those additional four Yak-1s???  were those four planes in over-all white camouflage or something else???

Regards,
KL

PS.  this could be a Yak-1 with partially washed winter camouflage:

(http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=28361)

Is this a "Normandie" squadron Yak-1?

No it is not Konstantin . I would like if it was because it's quite an interesting painting for a modeler...

I found that:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/18//15101805073718634313671953.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15101805073718634313671953.jpg)
according to the autor, it could be oil all along the fuselage!

I would like your opinion about the de la Poype plane's paint scheme because it's quite unusual.
Here are the pics a find.

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/07//15100711035718634313642632.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15100711035718634313642632.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/07//15100710521218634313642613.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15100710521218634313642613.jpg)

and if the plane is the same :

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/08//15100811231418634313645038.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15100811231418634313645038.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/07//15100710521218634313642614.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15100710521218634313642614.jpg)

the right part of the nose wich is the one we can see is very strange. If it has been repainted, I don't find any logic.

to complete the camouflage I used this one Konstantin put in an other topic.

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/14//15101411192218634313659518.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15101411192218634313659518.jpg)

this is the result I proposet, but I would appreciate your opinion, thanks

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/18//15101805194518634313671981.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15101805194518634313671981.jpg)(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/18//15101805174918634313671977.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15101805174918634313671977.jpg)
AS I said , the front right part seems veruy strange without any logic...
repainted yes, but why and how?
the karman seems all green...

about the pics , I don't think that it is the same plane. in the second plane (3 and 4 pics) the half of the wing is black (from the wheel to the fuselage) and this doesn't seem to be the case in the first two pics.
this is important because it could gave the number of the plane (30)
this plane was the 33-112 but three plane had the 33 started in 33 so this one had an other number

Xan

Hi,
for the general pattern, I would use this image as an help.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/yak1b-a.jpg)
I think that the old camouflage was somewhat ruined after the deletion of the winter paint, and so it was partially repainted, as for the black patch behind the exhaust pipes. The difference between new and old paint is much more evident than the old camo on a bw photo.
Regards
Massimo

Thank you Massimo for your answer.
for the pattern I thought abouit this pic, but I don't see any logical with the port af the plane we know (right part of the nose).
In your opinion, the black behind the pipes was repaint, OK. Personaly, I find very strange the wing fillet who is green when wings and fuselage are black in this part...
Xan

Hi Xan,
check this youtube link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KavFAXDQzSg

there is a Soviet news reel about "Eskadrilya Normandiya" starting at 3:26.

Hope it will help.

cheers,
KL

Hello Konstantin,
thank you very much, it helps a lot!
thanks to this video, i'm sure the pics where part of the number can be see is the same plane!
in fact, this is the complete original moovie, and the 3:37 to 3:40 is new for me.
infortunely we steel can't read well the nuumber, but it doesn't matter, it's e new and important element.
thank you again!
Xan

Hi Xan,

From two images above,  de la Poype's Yak-1 had fuselage number "38"....  Although "58" also looks possible  ???  I would definitively exclude 30 and 33.

Regarding the camouflage scheme, by far the most reliable information is in the book "The First Yak" ("Perviy Yak") by S. Kuznietsov.  There is the following drawing:

(http://www.istmira.com/uploads/post/21/83-187.jpg)
(http://www.istmira.com/uploads/post/21/83-188.jpg)
(http://www.istmira.com/uploads/post/21/83-189.jpg)

Baranov's Yak-1 was photographed in summer/early fall 1942 when regiment received new planes, so drawing represents standard factory scheme for mid-1942.  Photo posted by Massimo or following photos made in 1943 prove that the basic scheme did not change:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM04-5/43-1.jpg)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM04-5/43-2.jpg)

HTH,
KL



 

Hi Xan and KL,
the photo above seems to show a 3 instead of a 5, having a white extension on its right side of the top.
The other one seems 8 or, less likely, 0,6 or 9.
Regards
Massimo

Hello Massimo and konstantin.

mister K, for the painting scheme, I 'm very glad I decaded to apply the same scheme you propose me:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/28//15102808481618634313700137.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15102808481618634313700137.jpg)

fot the other side, I had to respect the part we can see in the pics wich is very strange  :-\
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/28//15102808481718634313700138.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15102808481718634313700138.jpg)

for the number.
it can't be the 38.
With the yak-1, normandie regiment applied VVS tradition and wore the first two numbers of the serial.
38 is well know because it was squadron leader Tulasne's plane (38-133).

this plane was the 33-116 plane; in a first time (when the yaks were painted in white)  it wore the red 33.
but at springtime there was three 33 (33-112, 33-116 and 33-110) The last one took the 33 number with Castelain as pilot.
I will keep 30 number until I have more information, knowing that it's just a suposition...

Xan

Hello Xan,

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the painting scheme....

I guess you were busy modelling, so you didn't pay attention to my previous posts - you asked question, you got answers and then you ignore the answers!

I thought we have agreed that de la Poype's Yak-1 was filmed in late April 1943 at the Mosalsk airfield.  You still have June 1943 for date and Khationky as the location!  Check again following photo:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

It's a winter scene!  Yak-7 is on the patch of snow!!!  In other words, it is quite logical to interpret painting scheme of de la Poype's Yak as a winter camouflage


If you accept that this Yak was in winter camouflage, you will see photos in different way:

-  what you represent as green is actually worn out/semi-transparent white MK-7
-  black fields on your drawing are actually irregular areas that were left in original camouflage colours (green or black)

Airplanes made during winter (say between November and February) received winter camouflage in factories - a layer of white MK-7 was sprayed over the standard black green camouflage. Although technical requirements specified semi-transparent layer of white paint, on photos factory winter camouflage looks as even solid white completely covering plane's upper surfaces.

In operational units winter camouflage white paint was usually applied freehand with brushes.  In late fall or early spring when ground was covered in patches of snow, planes were camouflaged in "disruptive winter camouflage".  This camouflage usually consisted of irregular white fields alternating with fields left in original camouflage colours (black or green).  Example of this type of field applied camouflage is Galchenko's LaGG-3

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16b.jpg)

IMHO, de la Poype's Yak-1 was also camouflaged in "disruptive winter camouflage".  It's clear from photos that the temporary white paint was hand brushed (note brush strokes!!!).

My interpretation of de la Poype's Yak-1 paint scheme:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/de%20la%20Poype%20Yak-1b%20copy_zpsn5oupl0g.jpg)

Hope this will help!

Regards,
Konstantin 

Hi Konstantin,
Excuse me if I took a long time to answer.

no problem, it's interesting

this sentence has not its place here! you know enough me to know that I always take in consideration your informations , you are not fair...

No you told that, it's diferent!
I looked to the ORB book abd those picture coul have been done in two moment.
in th 12th of april 7 yak-7  came to Mosalk airfield for a mision  comanded by Tulasne. the other officier was from the 18 GvIAP.
In the begining of June, arriving in Kationky, the GC.3 normandie share the airfield with its squadron brother, the 18 GvIAP.
But we know too reading the de la Poype memories that Marcelin, the de la Poype mecanic painted the shark mouth just before the 3rd of May mision...

looking the moovie you gave me I'm not sure at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqqJhpzHsqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqqJhpzHsqw)

I founded your interpratation with an winter camouflage interesting, but after quite a long time thinking about it, I 'm not convinced it was as you say.
Anyway thanks a lot to give your opinion, I need it, to go on!

Xan