Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Planes of the WW1 and of the Civil War => Topic started by: Old Man on October 10, 2015, 05:21:11 PM



Title: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on October 10, 2015, 05:21:11 PM
I am in the process of scratch-building an HF-27 (in 1/72). It will not be finished as a Russian machine, but since this typ was used in some numbers by the Russian air service, and survived into Soviet usage, I am hoping someone here might have some information to share on it --- facts are pretty thin on the ground.

I would like to know, for example, when the first examples of this were delivered to Russia, and how many were delivered (from France or from the Dux factory, which built them on license).

Any photographs, particularly photographs showing the engine an fuel tankage clearly, would be wonderful.

Here is one quite decent picture of a Russian example....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/steel_farman/ETcrHsmI_zpsusdqhejx.jpg)


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 11, 2015, 10:05:28 AM
Hi Old Man,
I've only the same photo on Red Stars 3, plus some Farman XVI and 22. A scratchbuilding of this subject would be interesting even if not in Russian markings.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: KL on October 25, 2015, 06:17:42 AM

I would like to know, for example, when the first examples of this were delivered to Russia, and how many were delivered (from France or from the Dux factory, which built them on license).


internet doesn't help much:  Only information from old Shavrov book:

Quote
В начале 1915 появился "Фарман" F.27 - дальнейшее развитие типа F.22 с рядом существенных изменений в конструкции планера и силовой установки. Увеличен размах нижнего крыла, установлено четырехколесное шасси "вуазеновского" типа и значительно более мощный стационарный двигатель водяного охлаждения "Сальмсон". Кроме того, в отличие от предыдущих самолетов Анри Фармана, летчик в гондоле размещался спереди, а наблюдатель - сзади. В 1915 году на фирме Фарман построено около 100 машин. Год спустя еще 50 экземпляров выпустил московский завод "Дукс".
  F.27 не получил распространения ни на западе, ни на востоке, так как уже были созданы аппараты, превосходящие его по всем параметрам. К тому же вызывали нарекания плохая маневренность и недостаточная прочность бипланной коробки. Большинство построенных машин применялось в роли разведчиков на второстепенных фронтах: в Македонии, Месопотамии и Палестине. Некоторые из них оснащались аэрофотоаппаратами. 30 самолетов передано англичанам, использовавшим их в Дарданелльской операции.

from http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25568.htm

Shawrow provides an answer to one of your questions:

"In 1915 Farman company produced around 100 planes.  A year later (in 1916...) Moscow Duks made 50 planes."

Only one poor photo identified as Russian F.27

(http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/03-Front-1/31-Farman_F15-2.jpg)

Hth,
KL


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on November 07, 2015, 12:08:52 AM
Thank you, Sir.

That is helpful. I can total the English orders in 1915, and that would give some clue to rough total delivered to Russia.

When I have a little more time (the build has to be complete by Wednesday next, it is a contest entry and that is the deadline) I will post a few details of deployment given in the Davilla and Soltan book.


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on November 20, 2015, 05:53:31 AM
Here are the details of Russian usage in the Davilla and Soltan book:

11 HF-27s in service in March, 1917: 1, northern front; 5, western front; 3, southwestern front; 2, Romanian front.

14 HF-27s in service in June, 1917: 9. western front; 5, Caucusus front.

Comment to the effect that the Dux HF-27 were considered weak, and manouvered poorly.

An HF-27 piloted by A. K. Tumansky said to have destroyed a German aeroplane (presumably in an air fight, rather than a ram or bombing on the ground).

Statement that 'by the end of the war' (whatever that means; Brest-Litovsk? the Armistice? the end of the Civil War?) surviving examples of the type had been relegated to training duty.

B. V. Shavrov 'History of Aircraft Design in the USSR, vol. 1' is the only Russian source cited in the 'Select Bibliography' at the end of the D&S book.


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2015, 09:01:00 AM
Does any good scale drawing of this type exist?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on November 20, 2015, 04:02:27 PM
I have not been able to find one, Sir.

In Davilla and Soltan's 'French Aircraft of WWI' there is a 1/144 scale drawing, but it is crap. It is accurate enough in major dimensions (I have these from a listing in the old Harleyford 'Bomber and Reconnaissance Planes, 1914-1918'), but it is extremely inaccurate in regards to the motor area and (and I did not notice this till it was too late) it has an incorrect rib pattern. It also gives the tail booms an upward slant, but every photograph I have seen shows the lower boom dead level relative to the ground when on all four wheels. In regards to the motor, it shows the mounting arrangement extending well behind the trailing edge of the wings, and sets its center near the top of the nacelle, as well as having solid sides behind the radiators. All these things are clearly contradicted by photographs. Small elements, like the control actuators on the nacelle are placed incorrectly, and the drawing omits most control cable arrangements (fortunately these can be discerned from photographs).


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2015, 05:26:52 PM
Maybe you could make a rough correction on a copy of this drawing? This would give some advantage for future researchers or modellers interested into this type.


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: KL on November 21, 2015, 01:35:11 AM
Hi Old Man,  :)
thanks for the Davilla and Soltan's 'French Aircraft of WWI' info.

I have just noticed that there are 4 blue tabs at the web page http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25568.htm
Each tab is for quote from a different book: Kondryatev's "Aircraft of WWI", Sheps' "Aircraft of WWI, Antanta" Shavrov's "History of Aircraft Design in the USSR", and Thetford's book in Putnam series.

Quote in my previous post is actually from Kondryatev's book.
Shavrov says that:

Quote
"Фарман-27" (Ф-27, "Фардва"). Это был трехстоечный биплан с крыльями одинаковых размеров, с хвостовой фермой, сходившейся к рулю направления, с низкой (чуть выше колен) гондолой и четырехколесным шасси. Крылья имели удлинение 8, конструкция их деревянная, пояса хвостовых ферм - стальные трубы, все расчалки - рояльная проволока 2,5-мм. В гондоле летчик помещался впереди, наблюдатель сзади. Пулемет устанавливался на шкворне, укрепленном на дуге над головой летчика.

   Самолет строился серийно на заводе "Дукс" в 1916 г. Всего было выпущено 50 самолетов. Вызывала сомнение прочность крыльев, которые не выдержали статических испытаний. В связи с этим студентами В. П. Ветчинкиным и А. А. Архангельским под руководством Н. Е. Жуковского были произведены проверочные расчеты самолетов на прочность. Оказалось, что запас прочности их был невелик и расчетные напряжения в деревянных полках лонжеронов достигали 990 кг/см2. Самолет обладал плохой маневренностью, однако применялся на фронте, и летавший на нем известный военный летчик А. К. Туманский сумел даже сбить немецкий истребитель.

Strength of the plane and its wing spars was re-calculated by two students who will later become famous: A.A. Arhangelskii was Tupolev's closest assistant (designed SB bomber among other planes) and V.P. Vetchinkin was a rocket science pioneer. Vetchinkin was a pilot too:  

(http://coollib.com/i/84/120084/image03.jpg)

Info about the military pilot Tumanskii who shot down German fighter plane also comes from Shavrov.

There is also a profile from Sheps' book

(http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/03-Front-1/Sheps/Farman_27.jpg)
Cheers,
KL  


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on November 22, 2015, 11:00:56 PM
Maybe you could make a rough correction on a copy of this drawing? This would give some advantage for future researchers or modellers interested into this type.

I will see if I can figure out a way to, Sir. Not much of a draftsman, I am afraid. I do occasionally sketch something out on graph paper for reference. It is an interesting thought, would never have occurred to me.


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Old Man on November 22, 2015, 11:10:03 PM
Hi Old Man,  :)
thanks for the Davilla and Soltan's 'French Aircraft of WWI' info.

I have just noticed that there are 4 blue tabs at the web page http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25568.htm
Each tab is for quote from a different book: Kondryatev's "Aircraft of WWI", Sheps' "Aircraft of WWI, Antanta" Shavrov's "History of Aircraft Design in the USSR", and Thetford's book in Putnam series.

Quote in my previous post is actually from Kondryatev's book.
Shavrov says that:

Quote
"Фарман-27" (Ф-27, "Фардва"). Это был трехстоечный биплан с крыльями одинаковых размеров, с хвостовой фермой, сходившейся к рулю направления, с низкой (чуть выше колен) гондолой и четырехколесным шасси. Крылья имели удлинение 8, конструкция их деревянная, пояса хвостовых ферм - стальные трубы, все расчалки - рояльная проволока 2,5-мм. В гондоле летчик помещался впереди, наблюдатель сзади. Пулемет устанавливался на шкворне, укрепленном на дуге над головой летчика.

   Самолет строился серийно на заводе "Дукс" в 1916 г. Всего было выпущено 50 самолетов. Вызывала сомнение прочность крыльев, которые не выдержали статических испытаний. В связи с этим студентами В. П. Ветчинкиным и А. А. Архангельским под руководством Н. Е. Жуковского были произведены проверочные расчеты самолетов на прочность. Оказалось, что запас прочности их был невелик и расчетные напряжения в деревянных полках лонжеронов достигали 990 кг/см2. Самолет обладал плохой маневренностью, однако применялся на фронте, и летавший на нем известный военный летчик А. К. Туманский сумел даже сбить немецкий истребитель.

Strength of the plane and its wing spars was re-calculated by two students who will later become famous: A.A. Arhangelskii was Tupolev's closest assistant (designed SB bomber among other planes) and V.P. Vetchinkin was a rocket science pioneer. Vetchinkin was a pilot too:  

(http://coollib.com/i/84/120084/image03.jpg)

Info about the military pilot Tumanskii who shot down German fighter plane also comes from Shavrov.

There is also a profile from Sheps' book

(http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/03-Front-1/Sheps/Farman_27.jpg)
Cheers,
KL  

That is quite interesting, Sir. I had no idea such people were involved. The advances people could see in a life-time in the twentieth century are amazing.

What bothers me a little about the profiles is that it is hard to think people drawing them even bothered to look at a photograph or three of the aeroplane. On this one, the use of an 'MF' marking is just icing on the cake: 'MF' meant Maurice Farman, it woul never have appeared on a Henry Farman design....

I will get down off my high horse now....



Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 11, 2016, 06:39:26 AM
hi, here is a photo of a similar plane.

https://russiainphoto.ru/search/photo/?page=1&facet_size_author_ids=11&query=%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C&facet_size_source_id=11&index=4&facet_size_tag_tree_ids=11 (https://russiainphoto.ru/search/photo/?page=1&facet_size_author_ids=11&query=%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C&facet_size_source_id=11&index=4&facet_size_tag_tree_ids=11)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: JP on June 18, 2016, 09:17:26 PM
Russian or not, I hope we get some images of the model.  :)


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: KL on June 18, 2016, 11:10:50 PM
Hi JP, building process and finished model are posted on this thread:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2118.0

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/steel_farman/steel_farman_postpics/IMG_7075_zpszgw4qbcw.jpg) 


Title: Re: Henri Farman HF-27, Looking For Information, Photographs
Post by: JP on June 19, 2016, 06:45:46 PM
Ah ha, thanks!  And I see it's from last year, even.  I guess I should read the "stringbags" section with more frequency.  :)