Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Ilyushins => Topic started by: Petranera on October 30, 2015, 02:29:06 AM



Title: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on October 30, 2015, 02:29:06 AM
Hi there ! I'm totally new here so I'll (shortly) start presenting myself :

Graduated in History, I'm an active modeler for decades and I started a couple of years ago to make some try of reconstitution with a new support : 3d modelling on computer, and especially texturing, that I hope is not off topic here. I'm not very familiar with Soviet planes, my domain is more japanese and of course french planes, but I'm trying some experimentation on the side of the red star.

Today I want to speak about a project I'm doing concerning the white banded 33 Il-2 that I discovered on your bible website :

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/banded/banded33.html

Few month ago the game moddelers from Gaijin created a nice serie of il-2 models on there game War Thunder. I decided to use this platform to try to recreate this white banded 33 Il-2, before doing a plastic model, so this subject will first concern only historic questions. The game graphic engine give the possibility to create new textures and new rivetting and pannel, I started with japanese planes and one of my texture was bought few month ago to be in the game.

The structure of the texture file is composed of different layers who give a "false" 3d effect on the model, build like this :

(http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/36/f398e2d3fb5695e479b7ce3db51d7bbc805a45_mq/Normalmappetra.jpg)

Here the first step without paint, entierly in duralumin :

(http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/01/945dfc2d4dd77e8bf1268275430e1c4e14b228_mq/workinprogresspetranera.jpg)

White banded 33

Here a global aspect of the new texture I created refering to Massimo's graphics :

(http://i.imgur.com/NHuwMyv.jpg)

I also try to had to it an "hyppothetical" winter camouflage on it, reffering to other Il-2 studied by Massimo :

(http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/18/5943436d1862dbed48e5b3fa62b31e32947575_mq/workinprogpetra3.jpg)
(http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/8f/6fc12f84f2d0d966b0e8e2d909e9c2ce2ba143_mq/workinprogpetra4.jpg)

Then, some technical questions :

1 - Do you have more information concerning this unit with the white banded star and the number 33 ? More photographies and more information about the theater of operation of this unit ? Does this unit was still active in winter 41/42 when the first winter camouflage was added ?
2 - Does the global colors (blue, green, black) looks historically accurates ?
3 - Does the winter camouflage, even Hyppothetical, seams historically possible ?
4- On these metallic rear fuselage Il-2, did we have some fabric recovered parts ?

This is all the question I remember for the moment, thank you for having read that, and thank you for your time !

Pierre


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 30, 2015, 06:50:18 AM
Hi Pierre,
thank you for your highly interesting images. But there is a problem: they are so wide that deform the visualization of the pages. Could you replace them with other ones, not wider than 1024 px, please?
On the graphic side, the images are highly realistic and appear much better looking than profiles. They are a definite progress over the screenshots obtained with the old Il-2 simulator.
For the colors: the AMT-4 and 6 are likely on a plane built and painted in summer 1941, but if you have utilized AMT-7 for the undersurfaces I would use AII light blue instead, looks more likely for that period.
The winter painting looks possible, even if not likely, because it incorporates elements seen on photos of different planes. Besides this would require that the plane survived the summer and fall 1941, that looks difficult again; I've seen only one photo of Il-2 with metal fuselage and winter painting. 
Besides I think that the photo of planes with white bands were of 1941 and of German source, that means that the plane was no longer in Soviet service in winter 1941/42. Anyway we can always suppose that it was another plane numbered 33, and the livery is within the limits of the possible.
For what I know, only the rudder and elevators were fabric covered.
About the unit: if I haven't written it on the site, I fear to have not this information, sorry.
Could you post some links to your works, please? They seem extremely interesting.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on October 30, 2015, 08:23:10 AM
Hi Massimo, the pictures are now half-sized, I hope that less than 1024Px I can't check from where I am now.

Thanks very much for the answers :

Quote
For what I know, only the rudder and elevators were fabric covered.

That confirms what I was thinking, considering how the rudders and elevators are damaged on pictures. Something that happens on japanese planes (but the paint was far worst than russian ones) is that in fabric covered parts the same paints looks darker, as for the wooden parts on soviet planes if I understood well. I tried to lightly differ the luminosity of the paint on those parts, with less sun weathering for exemple.

Quote
but if you have utilized AMT-7 for the undersurfaces I would use AII light blue instead, looks more likely for that period.

Indeed I used AMT-7 for the undersurfaces, I'll try a modification.

(http://i.imgur.com/TzdEK0r.jpg)

Quote
Besides I think that the photo of planes with white bands were of 1941 and of German source, that means that the plane was no longer in Soviet service in winter 1941/42. Anyway we can always suppose that it was another plane numbered 33, and the livery is within the limits of the possible.

We can see on these pictures 2 different plane I guess, the number 1834612 on his wheels (russian picture ?) and the crashed 1852213. What could be the meaning of the number 33 ? As I'm not familiar with russian aviation I'm a bit confused, is that the number of a squadron ? If this number was only on few planes, like a dozen for exemple, that is actually hardly possible to see them few month later with a winter camouflage.

Do you have this photo of an il-2 with metal fuselage and winter painting ?

The hard work on this kind of texturing is the "false" 3d, the rivets and panels, but once is done you can use it again and again changing just the camouflage. I can also pretty easily change the metal fuselage to a wooden one without much work.

Thank you again for your answers.

Considering that my other works on texture are not related to soviet planes, I'll just post a link here to my community personal page on war thunder :

http://live.warthunder.com/user/Petranera/


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 30, 2015, 09:46:11 AM
Hi Pierre,
this is the only image of a winter painted Il-2 with metallic fuselage I know.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/winterred4.jpg)
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/winterred4.jpg)

I suppose that n.33 was a number given by the regiment, because only Lavochkins had factory painted numbers starting from late 1942 or 1943, for what I know.

I had a look to your illustrations and they are particularly nice. Ki-84 is one of my favourite planes. Were really some of them painted in uniform black green without markings?

Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on October 31, 2015, 11:02:54 PM
Massimo, thanks for those informations concerning this "white banded 33" and this interesting photo.

Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?

Concerning the Dark Green Ki-84 without hinomaru, I just have a profile by Richard Ward for the Osprey book in 1971 :

(http://i.imgur.com/35Jc8V1.jpg)

The description says : "Ki-84b, 520th Temporary Interception Regiment, Home Island Defence, Nakatsu Airfield, May 1945, Black Green camouflage for night fighter operation."

The 520th sentai is a famous regiment with some well knowns photographies of other planes from this sentai, but I never find the original photo used by Richard Ward for this specific one. There are some various testimony from allied pilots talking about provisory paints (sometimes daily) who can possibly recover fuselage Hinomarus for more discretion in night operation against B29, but that just could be due only to the bad visibility of the allied crew members during night.

And actually I constated many mistake on the Richard Ward profiles, included a profile of a chinese communist ki-84 from what we know now to be a false photo, so this totally dark green ki-84 is for me just hypothetical.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: KL on November 01, 2015, 06:25:29 AM

Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?


Not an Il-2, but there are photos of an Yak-1s in factory applied winter camouflage and photos of the same Yak after temporary white paint had been removed.  It was a "significant plane" the first one bought with the funds raised by the workers of the Saratov region and presented to mayor V.I. Shishkin in November 1942:

in factory applied winter camouflage:

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/shishkin2.2vss2m91epk4448wck4kwoss8.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/shishkin.4k84a3o8vuskcgs4w4k8cwc8k.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

in summer camouflage, after temporary white had been washed off:

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/shishkn14.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/shishkn13.jpg)

Yak-1 tail displayed in Saratov Regional Museum suposedly belongs to the same plane.  If true, white paint was applied for the second time in winter 1943/44.

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all9/shishkn5.jpg)

Hope this helps,
Konstantin

 


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 01, 2015, 10:29:39 AM
Hi,
Quote
Not an Il-2, but there are photos of an Yak-1s in factory applied winter camouflage and photos of the same Yak after temporary white paint had been removed.  It was a "significant plane" the first one bought with the funds raised by the workers of the Saratov region and presented to mayor V.I. Shishkin in November 1942:
Interesting example indeed. Could also be that the plane was completely repainted in the spring. The camouflage paint appears nearly glossy, and the markings on the fuselage have been fully repainted.
The photo of the relic of the tail is interesting too. My impression , from the few that can be seen through scratches, is that the underlying camo of the tail was AMT-11-12.


Quote
Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?

I can't remember examples of I-2 now, but there is a photo of a famous MiG-3 'for the communist party' with red arrow and white livery, that was later photographed camouflaged, still with the original marks.
Besides photos of LaGG-3s of Galchenko and Mironov show evidences of evolution.
In general, an evolution of painting on Il-2s can be seen in every field applied winter finish, or in black-green planes with wide white-red borders on the stars, applied after August 1943 (not to be confused with thin white outlines of stars typical of planes of Zavod 18 before that date).
Regards
Massimo

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 01, 2015, 09:49:20 PM
Konstantin, thank you for this very interesting exemple, definitly a good subject for a reproduction. As for Japan, the ammount of Soviet planes (and pilots) lost is terrible. Having several sources of the same plane of those nations in differents liveries is a real luck. I'm always greedy of this kind of documents.

Massimo, I guess that concerning Il-2s, the best way to catch this evolution is as you said : from a winter temporary scheme we can quite easily reproduce the factory paint and even some other intermediary modifications. Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: 66misos on November 01, 2015, 10:31:28 PM
...Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".
Hi Petranera,
a time ago I made a table about some early L-L Cobras in 1943 - when they were delivered to SU and when they were destroyed or written off. May be it is not exactly about your question, but at least it can give you rough idea, how long they survived - it was usually weeks, rarely months.
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10342#msg10342 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10342#msg10342)
IMHO you could expect something similar with other Soviet planes in 1941.
Regards,
   66misos



Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 01, 2015, 10:34:07 PM
Thank you Misos, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for !


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2015, 06:59:46 AM
Hi Pierre,
Quote
Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".
very brief, as Misos wrote. Then probably increased when the Soviets conquered the superiority over Germans.
There are few examples of plane lasted a pair of years (singleseater Il-2s in 1944) or more (the second prototype of Pe-8 was operational but survived the war). Besides all the (few) I-153 and I-16 utilized as shturmoviks in 1942 had to have survived at least six months of war.
I suppose that the old versions of the planes were used side by side with new ones, unless a different speed prevented to fly together. Eventually they could have moved to another unit still using that type.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 02, 2015, 10:25:10 PM
Thank you for those very interesting informations Massimo.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 03, 2015, 06:52:52 AM
You're welcome.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: KL on November 03, 2015, 07:36:03 AM
Hi Pierre,
It's practically impossible to generalize those things.  It was a conflict that lasted 4 years and it was spread over thousands of kilometres of front.  Germans were close to the victory in 1941-42, but Soviets finally won in 1944-45...

Table Misos made needs some explanation:

From April to June 1943 Pokrishkin's 16 giap took part in heavy aerial combats over the Kuban (Krasnodar region on Black Sea coast).  Those combats are known in Soviet history as "Kuban Meat Grinder" - even the name of the battle suggests heavy losses.  Still, Soviets claim that this was a clear victory for VVS and a fatal blow to the Luftwaffe.  Soviets see this battle as a turning point in the air war over the East Front. You may try to read more here:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8_(1943)

From June to September, 16 giap was withdrawn further from the combat - it didn't participate in the Kursk Battle.

In September it was back in combat on Black Sea coast.  Now VVS had initiative over much smaller Luftwaffe forces (Germans also had to withdraw planes from East front to Meditarenian and Reich defence).

From January to April 1944 16 giap was withdrawn again to reorganize and receive new planes.  Pokrishkin went to Moscow to meet Yakovlev and Lavochkin and decide between La-7 and Yak-3.

April-June 1944 again in combat over N-E Romania... and so on, and so on...

So when Misos says that planes lasted "usually weeks, rarely months"  that is true for April-June 1943, not for the rest of the war.  and this is only 16 giap; other regiments had different histories...

Hth,
KL


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: 66misos on November 03, 2015, 10:54:30 AM
Hi,
...It's practically impossible to generalize those things... So when Misos says that planes lasted "usually weeks, rarely months"  that is true for April-June 1943, not for the rest of the war...
I do not generalize, I do not say it is rule for whole WWII. That is why I wrote at the end of my post:
...you could expect something similar with other Soviet planes in 1941...

...Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? ...
I can give you an example not about early planes, but late Lavochkins. Czechoslovakia used Lavochkins (La-5FN, La-7, La-5UTI) after the war. Those planes were used already during WWII. Designed life time or warranty time of those planes was 2 years since they left factory. So machines produced in 1944-45 became quite "used" in 1946-7, having structural damages. All that (but not only that) caused number of accidents so commission of Cs. and Soviet experts recommended to write-off those planes, as not suitable even for training.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Graham Boak on November 03, 2015, 12:17:36 PM
This must be as true for the VVS as for other nations: because a unit was in combat for a long time does not mean individual aircraft stayed with it for that length of time.  Possibly some did, but not a majority.  Losses would be steadily replaced and well-used aircraft would be sent back to the rear for major overhauls.  The rate at which this happened would depend upon the flying rate, combat tempo and capability of the opposition.  It is certainly not unreasonable to expect a unit of some 12-20 aircraft to have had a complete turn over in the course of a month of front-line operations.  Less at some times, more at other times.  There are clear examples of individual aircraft with much longer lifespans - but these stand out because of that.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 04, 2015, 12:22:50 AM
Thanks for all those very interesting clarifications.

Concerning a soviet unit that I well know, the Normandie-Niemen, the average life of a plane was between 6 and 12 months :

First Yak 1 between 19 january and 8 of 1943, but mainly for preparatory flight until april 43. From april to 8 of august, the planes fight a lot. The "rempants" work 14 hours a day on the planes. In the begining of august those planes are in very bad shape. Average durability : 6 months with 3 month of real fight.

First 5 yak 9 arrived in july, the rest in august 43. That seems at this moment that still few yak 1 take part to the missions. In july 44 the unit have 51 yaks 9. At this period the Yak 9 are described as totally used and in very bad condition. The 12 of august the 44 remaining yak 9 are replaced by brand new yak 3. 17 more new Yak 3 arrived in November. Average durability of Yak 9 : 10 month, but with only 5 month of fight.

35 new yak 3 arrived in december 44. The 14 of february 45 remain only 27 Yak 3, and 7 of them can't fly, when they receive 5 new planes, and some few more until the end of the war. In june 45, 38 of those yak-3 are offered to the pilots. At their arrival in Paris at the end of the war the planes still look in good shape, but most of them are almost new :

http://www.ina.fr/video/AFE86003145

But one year later in 1946, only 26 over 38 remain. Used as school planes but without parts, the mecanics need to canibalise some plane to repair the other.

That's interesting to see that even in very good condition of flight the durability of those planes is very limited.

Normandie-Niemen : 273 victories, 5240 war missions, 43 loss, 4 prisonners and 7 wounded over a total of 95 pilots (57% of loss).

Only one of those planes still exist today at the Bourget museum, but this one was took from another russian unit to complete the Stalin gift to the Normandie-Niemen pilots, so it never fight with the Normandie Niemen. It was repainted many times, but was restaured this spring 2015 :

(http://www.aeroweb-fr.net/uploads/media/large/2015/21/3567.jpg)

Here some pictures of this plane since is arrival in France (very interesting pictures just before the restauration in the second link, we can see the factory number 25, 21 from russian unit, and 18 when he arrived in paris in 1945) :

http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201:yak-3&catid=35:les-reserves-du-musee-de-lair&Itemid=118
http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201%3Ayak-3&catid=35%3Ales-reserves-du-musee-de-lair&Itemid=118&limitstart=1

Cordialement,

Pierre


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Troy Smith on November 04, 2015, 02:37:27 AM
Thanks Pierre

photos or similar photos from you link have been posted here before regarding the original markings and paint colours.

The photo is of F-AZLY, which is pehaps a converted Yak-11
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?95276-Stacks-of-Yaks&p=1588084#post1588084
Quote
Just how many Yak-3 a/c has Jean Garric made? I remember seeing an article detailing two Yak-11s he rebuilt with an Allison up front (White 4 & 6 I think), but from the list here it appears he's made a lot more. Or are there some typo's lurking around?

170406 N33UA Tulsa Warbirds Garric Yak-3 R Tulsa,OK
171729 Allison Yves Jean-Marie Garric Garric Yak-3 R Weslaco,TX
172612 Allison F-AZOS Jean-Marie Delimboeuf Garric Yak-9R
172809 Allison N3UA Yves Jean-Marie Garric Garric Yak-3 R Harlingen,TX
172890 Allison F-AZLY Amicale des Avions de Collection et de Sport Rouen Garric Yak-3 R
Y337 Allison F-AZXZ George Chauveau Garric Yak-3 R Coulommiers ex337?

Regarding the post war use.
Quote
But one year later in 1946, only 26 over 38 remain. Used as school planes but without parts, the mecanics need to canibalise some plane to repair the other.

That's interesting to see that even in very good condition of flight the durability of those planes is very limited.

Parts wear out, and if you don't have new spares, then in time this will happen.

But, wartime aircraft were lost at such a rate that they were not planned to have long service lives, also the sheer speed of aircraft development in WW2 meant that aircraft that were the best were completely out classed in two years.

Older types that survived ended up in other roles, even if just relegated to training units.
Plenty of RAF Hurricane and Spitfires from the Battle of Britain were still in training units in 1943/44 for example.

I don't know much about VVS fighter training, I presume that photos are rare, photos of RAF training units are rare as they were just not very glamorous, and I know that photos of PVO (air superiority units ) are rare as they were behind the front lines and harder to get permission to photograph.

This detail came up in regard to rarity of Spitfire photos, as these were mostly used by the PVO units.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 04, 2015, 02:50:33 AM
Troy :

Yes you're right, I made a mistake with the picture of the yak, this in not the one I was talking about :

(http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/stories/ListinMAE/evenements/2015evenements/inauguration_normandie_niemen/20150604-Inauguration_Hall_Normandie_%20Niemen-8699.jpg)

F-AZLY is a reproduction made in 2000 in America for a french collector. It is now with the prototype colors I think.

Concerning non-russians planes, I've seen a lot of ww2 or post war american prop planes who served many years after the war in Africa, french colonies and even France. Some corsairs and helldivers were used for a very long period, but the conditions were totally different. Concerning russian planes as you said, they were definitly not destined to a long life...


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: barneybolac on November 04, 2015, 01:57:47 PM

Concerning the Dark Green Ki-84 without hinomaru, I just have a profile by Richard Ward for the Osprey book in 1971 :

(http://i.imgur.com/35Jc8V1.jpg)

The description says : "Ki-84b, 520th Temporary Interception Regiment, Home Island Defence, Nakatsu Airfield, May 1945, Black Green camouflage for night fighter operation."

The 520th sentai is a famous regiment with some well knowns photographies of other planes from this sentai, but I never find the original photo used by Richard Ward for this specific one. There are some various testimony from allied pilots talking about provisory paints (sometimes daily) who can possibly recover fuselage Hinomarus for more discretion in night operation against B29, but that just could be due only to the bad visibility of the allied crew members during night.



Not the right forum on Japanese aircraft so my apologies. Have never found a photo of that KI-84 either I have put together a combination of profiles & matching photos in a forum for a flight SIM I play. Thought it might be useful for you if you are looking to skin KI-84's.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296356.30.html


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 05, 2015, 03:06:36 AM
Hello Barneybolac

Quote
Not the right forum on Japanese aircraft so my apologies.

Yes I was just answering a question from Massimo concerning this particular scheme, sorry to post here a not related plane, that was not my attempt.

Thank you very much for this link concerning ki-84s, I discovered some photos I've never seen of well known profiles. And once again we can notice that without a photo, a profile can't almost never be trusted. And even with photo, and especially for japanese plane, you can see several interpretations of the colors sometimes totally opposed.

Don't we have some recent program who can help with that ? You put the photo on it, refer some sure colors (as the hinomaru, sky, grass, trees, uniforms) and that give you the probable other colors ?


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 05, 2015, 05:58:18 AM
Hi,
Quote
Don't we have some recent program who can help with that ? You put the photo on it, refer some sure colors (as the hinomaru, sky, grass, trees, uniforms) and that give you the probable other colors ?
The eye and the mind, I suppose.
Unfortunately a bw photo has lost the separed indications on hue, darkness (that can be related through the sensibility peaks of the film) and particularly of saturation (that becomes always zero).
Besides there is the 'color depth' fact, that causes also that two apparently similar paints, but with different pigments, can appear different on a bw photo.
Eventually, a program could try to make the reverse path simulating the look of a bw photo from a color one, giving the supposed sensibility profile of the film.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: KL on November 06, 2015, 03:38:26 AM
Hi Pierre,
your Il-2 pictures from the beginning of the thread are really impressive.  Can you do something similar with 1943 Normandie squadron Yak-1b discussed at this thread
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2100.0
???

It's the plane flown by a French pilot, and you will help a French modeller who happens to be a history teacher!!! (you can't say no...)

The challenge is to show temporary/washable white paint which is semi-transparent and in this case applied by brush (note brush strokes!).  It is really about the paint texture (and you re expert in that field!)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/06/09//15060907023018634313346343.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110502918634313522743.jpg)

and my unsuccessful attempt:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/de%20la%20Poype%20Yak-1b%20copy_zpsn5oupl0g.jpg)

I am sure you can do it better.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 06, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
KL :

Thanks for the compliment KL !

As a french also graduated in history, and fan of Normandie-Niemen guys, I'll try to do that ! For the Il-2 I actually redid all the normal mapping structure (3d rivets, panels, etc) and that take a lot of time. But for a profile I can use the original files, not so detailled but quite enough if you don't zoom to much.

If you studied well the subject could you make a skecth situating clearly the scheme of all the sides of the plane (I mean your guessing) ? If you could also include the shark mouth, eyes and other marks that's very good. No need of a nice skecth, just a precise one, with accurate colours if possible (un plan, simple croquis des c?t?s dessus dessous suffira, tu peux le faire au crayon et le scanner ensuite si tu veux).

I'm a bit busy now but I can try to do this in the next weeks.

Massimo :

Let's hope in the future and the invention of this miracle program !

Concerning Il-2 late 1941, sorry to plebicite again you science but I have another question : do you know any custom marks on those planes, as sentence or drawing, or that was to early in the war ? And for other model of singleseater Il-2s ?

Quote
There are few examples of plane lasted a pair of years (singleseater Il-2s in 1944)

Do you worked on it ? I didn't find in the site, I'm very interested by those planes.

Thank you very much !

Pierre


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 06, 2015, 01:12:05 PM
Hi Pierre,
here is one, well known. The date is uncertain, but I guess it was in late 1943/early 1944 because of the marks. If so, that plane survived to one year or more of operations.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/winter-singles/7of174shap.jpg)

On this page, there is a small photo of plane 29 in 1944 aside twoseaters. I suppose that it was partially repainted with light brown, but the image is too scarcely detailed. Anyway it could the base for a speculative profile or skin.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/8gvshap-24al/8gvshap-24al.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/8gvshap-24al/8gvshap-24al.html)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 08, 2015, 09:43:22 AM
Thank you very much Massimo, very nice pictures, and very nice subjects for reproductions to !


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 08, 2015, 11:35:36 AM
Hi Pierre,
will you make a skin of these ones?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 09, 2015, 04:06:25 AM
That's a possibility, if I find some time. They have a new graphic engine now in War Thunder, quality is far far better, especially on reflections. I'll first try to fininish this white banded 33.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 11, 2015, 01:32:58 AM
Here more "screenshots" of the work in progress on the white banded 33 and his fictionnal winter version (I worked a lot on the bumped duraluminium effect, reffering on some singleseater photographies as the Budapest wreck one) :

http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/6b/507fd10f1d2809567591f5d6457d0030bd05bc/finalprocess.jpg

I'll try to do a five views illustration when finnished, as a profile reference. Please tell me if you see some inaccurates color tunes or other things.

Pierre


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 11, 2015, 05:36:56 AM
Hi Pierre,  it looks a very interesting work.
What about the red stenciling on the nose, the interruted aiming lines for bombing? Are them documented?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 11, 2015, 07:11:00 AM
Hi Massimo, sadly the red stenciling on the nose is totally invented, and yes this is supposed to be the pilot custom aiming for bombing. That will be only on the fictional camouflage with winter paint, the original white banded 33 will stay accurates to photographies and to your profile.

Pierre


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 11, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
Hi Pierre, an interesting idea anyway.
Is it possible to add the junctions on the rear glass in some ways? It should be made with three panels riveted together.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 12, 2015, 01:24:41 AM
I was actually wondering about this glass junction, do you have some clear pictures that show this junction ?


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2015, 06:44:57 AM
Hi,
this is the best I have.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/2shkas.jpg)
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 12, 2015, 07:33:12 AM
That's already very good, thanks you very much. I don't know if I can modify the glass part but I will try. And concerning the junction glass/rear aluminium panel, does the glass goes under the panel as it is on the picture ? Or maybe there is some riveting ?

(http://i.imgur.com/7JLfPwC.jpg)


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2015, 08:56:04 AM
Yes, you can see them on your photo. There should be a frame between the glass and the removable panel.
by the way, the section of the 3D model is too rounded, it should be flat on its central part.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2015, 06:57:27 AM
If you are in contact with who made the 3D model, you can also  suggest that the tank top should be flat. Besides early il-2s had a wide armoured glass behind the pilot instead of the metal armour with two small windows.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 17, 2015, 10:20:08 AM
Ok thank you very much for those informations.

Sadly this is to much work to redo this model. This is clearly a quite big mistake frome the modellers.


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 18, 2015, 06:35:10 AM
Are you in contact with them?


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on November 19, 2015, 09:28:43 AM
I never talked with one of the 3D modellers, but with some developpers who don't really take part in this aspect of the game devlopment. Anyway, considering the hard managing of a game like that with more than 300 planes, I guess that redoing something like the top of the tank and the glass of the il-2 1941 will never be done, to much work for only few people that will notice that. Anyway, for the record, I'll post a remark about this mistake in the technical forum.

And concerning the antenna ? Present in the 3D model, I never saw it on the pictures... On the dev presentation they named the model the "IL-2 AM-38 1941,  the IL-2 from the first half of 1941", but I guess it looks more than a late summer 1941 il-2 with his "thin sheet cover over the gap between spinner and cowling, absent on earlier planes and introduced in late summer 1941". They also had this nice scheme you described on the website :

http://static.warthunder.com/upload/image/de/Dev-Blogs/12.02.2015/shot%202015_02_06%2016_56_20.jpg

But with a metal rear fuselage, and in the photos we clearly can see that this plane had a wooden fuselage.

Here the 3d UV map of the model, with the sheet cover over the spinner, round tank and antenna ;

http://warthunder.ru/upload/image/Dev%20Blog/il_2_1941_08.jpg


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on December 05, 2015, 11:09:10 PM
Hello,

Massimo, I found some information about the "white banded 33" unit on russians forums. Sadly the post is old and the linked pictures (15) are not online anymore... They speak about this unit as one of the 7 ShAP "САД" :

Quote
Ну наконец то изыскания в архиве дошли до логического завершения!!!
№ 4312 и 2213 - самолеты 243 ШАП 7 САД!
2213, мотор №0210, сбит ЗА 8.09.41г. пилот ком звена мл.л-т Кирюхин Илья Гаврилович -пропал б/в.
4312, мотор №1409, сбит ЗА 12.09.41г.

(http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-100-00000020-000-40-0)

I found only one picture not on your wite banded 33 's page :

(http://i.imgur.com/pF8NShb.jpg)

And I made two images from my actual skins, I will soon do more with the historical one, without the winter camouflage :

http://i.imgur.com/dRX0hMf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4uFjxzV.jpg


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 06, 2015, 07:18:35 AM
Hi Pierre,
interesting. I don't remember if I had this image, but it's a goo detail of the rockets and rails.
There is an interesting Pe-2 with white band too, of 7 SAD
http://radikal.ru/F/s50.radikal.ru/i128/1008/45/75fc98d99b03.jpg.html (http://radikal.ru/F/s50.radikal.ru/i128/1008/45/75fc98d99b03.jpg.html)
Your images of flying Il-2 are very convincing. I like the focus on the close pars, and the blurrying of the horizon too.  Pity that the pilot is always on deep shadow. With minimal photoshopping, these images could seem real and used to illustrate a book or a site.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2
Post by: Petranera on December 06, 2015, 09:43:18 PM
Very interesting pe-2 picture who confirm that the white banded 33 were from the 7 SAD. Do you know a source that details the operations of russians air regiment on the early month of war ?

Concerning the pictures I'll try to make some more. The pilot model ingame is very hugly, I have to redraw one or find a good picture to use for it.