Sovietwarplanes

Pre-GPW Aviation => Biplane fighters of '20s and '30s => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on January 03, 2016, 09:38:18 PM



Title: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 03, 2016, 09:38:18 PM
Hi all,
just to inform who is interested: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153 for the site. I think that the first ones should appear within a month. There are some not seen before.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 02, 2016, 07:07:09 AM
Hi,
I've uploaded a provisional version of the page with the drawings of Tapani at
mig3.sovietwarplanes,com/i15/i-153/tapani/tapani.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/tapani.htm)
It is not yet linked to the main page.
Many other drawings are under work.
Please have a look and let me know any suggestion to improve the page.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: xan on February 03, 2016, 07:52:34 AM
Very nice! I will have to do a I-13 of the 236 IAP quite soon, the 21 (KL knows it well)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/02//15100207384718634313627129.jpg)

xan


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 07, 2016, 07:54:23 PM
Is it the plane preserved in Bourget?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 07, 2016, 10:26:50 PM
Hi,
I've uploaded a new page with drawings of Tapani of Soviet White 19 and Finnish IT-20.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/19-IT-20/19-IT20-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/19-IT-20/19-IT-20.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/19-IT-20/19-IT-20.htm)

Other recently uploaded pages:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/71iap-kbf-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/71iap-kbf.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/71iap-kbf.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/german/H4%2BMB-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/german/german.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/german/german.htm)


Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: learstang on February 08, 2016, 05:00:32 AM
Nice Chaikas!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: 66misos on February 08, 2016, 06:16:05 AM
Hi,
Very nice profiles. As usual.
   66misos


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 09, 2016, 09:27:23 AM
Hi,
some other ones.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/winterwar/16winterwar3-rr.jpg)
This has a ski gear
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/winterwar/winterwar16.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/winterwar/winterwar16.htm)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/28red/28red3views-rr.jpg)
We are not sure of the color of the cap of this, looks darker than the star
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/28red/28red.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/28red/28red.htm)


(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/27red/27-rr.jpg)
I think that this is of the same unit of the one restored in Bourget, n.21
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/27red/27red.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/27red/27red.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: xan on February 10, 2016, 08:39:05 AM
Is it the plane preserved in Bourget?
yes it is .
if I'm not wrong, the Bourget have another plane 's wongs
The germans repair and show it; after the war the frenches recuperated it, that's why it is in the MAE collection.
I thing the restauration began some years ago is now stopped (no money...)
KL can tell  more about this plane, he worked with the MAE if I'am not wrong.

Xan


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: KL on February 12, 2016, 10:33:36 PM

if I'm not wrong, the Bourget have another plane 's wongs
The germans repair and show it; after the war the frenches recuperated it, that's why it is in the MAE collection.


Hi Xan,
Yes, it's true - MAE I-153 is a composite assembled from parts of several captured I-153s.  Four wings came from four different planes, rudder came from a different planes, there are different serial numbers even on some metal panels. Most of the parts were captured by Germans in Lithuania, and belonged to planes from same regiment. Some parts (one lower wing and rudder) come from planes probably captured further to South. We know this because those parts were painted in later green/lt. blue scheme.
Germans restored this plane as an instructional airframe/exhibit - electrical wiring was cut out and thrown away, some equipment is missing etc.  The plane was displayed in exhibition of captured aviation material attached to an aluminum smelter near Paris. After the liberation, exhibition was destroyed except this little fighter which was donated to the Museum. Sympathies that French people had for the Soviet Union's fight against nazism, probably played some part in the ultimate fate of this particular plane.
Cheers,
KL   


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 23, 2016, 09:43:00 PM
Hi,
I've just uploaded a wide page with the drawings of Tapani about I-153s in Finnish service.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/finnish/finnish-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/finnish/finnish.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/finnish/finnish.htm)

There is a lot of colorful profiles and sharp photos. These planes were much better documented than Soviet ones.

Next step is a page on Soviet experimental camouflages of 1940.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: 66misos on February 23, 2016, 10:38:49 PM
Hi Massimo,
I like those Tapani's profiles soo much. They are beautiful.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 24, 2016, 07:14:09 AM
Hi Misos,
yes, it's a good work.
The page on Finnish I-153s gives indications on the evolution of Finnish painting standards that are applicable to other types too.
By the way, have you received the mail from Alex Ruckovsky on P-39s?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Pascal on February 24, 2016, 04:54:03 PM
Hi,

Sympathies that French people had for the Soviet Union's fight against nazism, probably played some part in the ultimate fate of this particular plane.

Yes, and probably also by the fact that air minister in 1945 was Charles Tillon, a PCF (French communist party) member and the Franc-tireurs partisans fran?ais (FTPF) creator in 1941.

Regards,

Pascal


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 17, 2016, 08:49:45 AM
Hi,
the work is growing.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched.htm)
Probably I'll break this page between planes of the Nomothan accident and those seen during Barbarossa.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/240-377/240-prof-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/240-377/240-377.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/240-377/240-377.htm)

here it is not clear if their intention was to paint a plane in uniform green or camouflage it. Unknown unit.


(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/93-profdx-r.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/71iap-kbf.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/71iap-kbf/71iap-kbf.htm)

Further profile. This was the most known unit with camouflaged I-153s.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 19, 2016, 12:19:07 PM
Some other work:

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/70/70-prof-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/70/70greentail.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/70/70greentail.htm)

Then, some blotched planes of 1941.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/dotted16-profdx-rr.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/63-profsx-rr.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/40-profdx-rr.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched.htm)



The camouflaged planes of 1939 were splitted at

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/blotched-rr.jpg)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/nomothan.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/blotched/nomothan.htm)


Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 03, 2016, 09:10:16 PM
Some other works:
the prototype
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/prototype/prototype-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/prototype/prototype.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/prototype/prototype.htm)

preserie with M-25V engine:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/m25preserie/m25-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/m25preserie/m25preserie.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/m25preserie/m25preserie.htm)

experimental camouflages of 1940
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/experimental1940/experimental-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/experimental1940/experimental1940.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/experimental1940/experimental1940.htm)

what if camouflage according to a directive of spring 1941
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/whatif1941/spring1941-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/whatif1941/whatif1941.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/whatif1941/whatif1941.htm)

winter camouflages
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/wintercamos/wintercamos-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/wintercamos/wintercamos.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/wintercamos/wintercamos.htm)

the plane appeared in the movie Nebo Moskviy (Moscow sky) of 1944
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/movie/movie-leftprofile-rr.jpg)
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/movie/movie.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/movie/movie.htm)


I think that we are close to the end of this work.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: learstang on April 04, 2016, 04:13:38 AM
Again, some lovely Chaikas by Tapani! I especially like the ones with the experimental 1940 camouflage (even if that brown may have led to all those awful brown/green representations of GPW aircraft over the years).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 04, 2016, 06:20:18 AM
Hi Jason,
I think that the origin of the 'brown legend' were not these misknown tests, but the use of red brown primer on some types, that was mistaken for an outer color when seen on some wreck. Besides, if one sees a grey-green-brown plane, it's easy to forget grey and remember green and brown. Many interviews of veterans suggest this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: KL on April 05, 2016, 01:53:29 AM
... the experimental 1940 camouflage (even if that brown may have led to all those awful brown/green representations of GPW aircraft over the years.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,
I think that the origin of the 'brown legend' were not these misknown tests, but the use of red brown primer on some types, that was mistaken for an outer color when seen on some wreck.

Fictional "Soviet Brown-green camouflage scheme" originates from 1960-es and 1970-es popular aviation literature. Most VVS airplanes in then popular and authoritative "Profile Publication" series were depicted as brown-green. Yak-9 booklet (no 185 in series) was published in 1967:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjEx/z/reIAAOSwwbdWKgAG/$_35.JPG)

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/15/pics/1_105.jpg)

Il-2 and I-16 booklets were published sometime before, Pe-2 booklet was published after:

(https://www.scalemates.com/books/img/101243-12155-64.jpg?nr=88&company=profile%20publications&name=ilyushin%20il-2)

(http://historyarm.in.ua/jpg/%D0%90%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8/%D0%98%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5/ENG/Profile/Profile%20Publications%20Aircraft%20Profile%20216%20Petlyakov%20Pe-2/b1.jpg)

(http://www.small-wonder.org/Books/Pe-2_Profile_216_2.jpg)

(http://i74.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0211/29/3988e4b63553ea32ec390804361d0529.jpg)

From books fictional "brown-green scheme" went to models (or vice-versa???):

(http://www.ipmsusa3.org/gallery/d/166734-5/Yak_9_Airfix_1204_50_72nd.jpg)

(http://www.tons-of-toys.com/item_images/Classic%20toys%20and%20games/Model%20Kits/Airfix-Yak.jpg)

1970-es Heller Yak-3 boxart shows plane in "brown-gray scheme" ???. Side of the box has then standard "brown-green scheme"

(http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/328/2168328/2168328_150420192707_DSCF6929.JPG)

(http://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/ra180/users/0/8/8/2/maruko21262126-img600x450-1406354730vypijd30200.jpg)

Etc, etc...
Regards,
KL


 


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 05, 2016, 12:21:52 PM
Hi,
Quote
Fictional "Soviet Brown-green camouflage scheme" originates from 1960-es and 1970-es popular aviation literature. Most VVS airplanes in then popular and authoritative "Profile Publication" series were depicted as brown-green. Yak-9 booklet (no 185 in series) was published in 1967

yes, bibliografically speaking. But maybe they had some inspiration from wrong reports of veterans or primers on wrecks.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: KL on April 05, 2016, 03:07:29 PM
... maybe they had some inspiration from wrong reports of veterans or primers on wrecks.


What brown primer on Yak-9?
Those profiles/illustrations were interpretations of b/w photos.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: AC26 on April 05, 2016, 06:00:24 PM
Hello all,

Original Airfix Yak-9D bagged kit lid was in two tone green colours (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2556/3894914198_456611346d_b.jpg).

I don't think that during the 1960's any Western author had seen any Soviet wrecks.

First time two tone grey was possible mentioned in a Western publication in an Air Enthusiast article about Czech Lavotchkin pilots and maybe the first profile was in the Keskinen-Stenman-Niska book "Ven?l?iset h?vitt?j?t" (Soviet Fighters, Finnish AF history #7 were 1/3 of pages was a picture gallery of planes in Soviet colours in addition to Finnish war booty partially sourced from the Soviet Union) published in 1977. Source in the first was pilot memories and latter obviously the well-known tail unit. Also a LaGG-3 was shown in black green camouflage based on the Vesivehmaa fuselage piece.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 05, 2016, 07:40:30 PM
Hi,
Quote
What brown primer on Yak-9?
On Il-2s.
Quote
I don't think that during the 1960's any Western author had seen any Soviet wrecks.
This is likely. I first saw grey/grey Lavochkins on Letectvi Kosmonautika around 1980, but they published also traditional brown/green drawings, if I remember well.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Lolo on April 05, 2016, 10:16:16 PM
Superb Work !

More inspiration :

(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz303/Lolo_Kramp/3fPMHqz0Txc_zpsfacyhoqe.jpg)

(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz303/Lolo_Kramp/P-a8TdA7Dvk_zpshgkhyjb0.jpg)

(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz303/Lolo_Kramp/1449249637_1358106293_Profil_zpsxizgcgbo.jpg)


 ;)

Lolo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Lolo on April 05, 2016, 10:23:07 PM
And of course...those fascinating photos with partial view  :( :( :( :(

So sad we dont have the complete aircraft

(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz303/Lolo_Kramp/verhom5_zpswrhnzru0.jpg)

(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz303/Lolo_Kramp/001_zps3mtmdknv.jpg)

Lolo


Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 06, 2016, 07:52:58 AM
Hi Lolo,
thank you for your images. We already had the partial ones, but the photos of n.86 are new to me. Who knows if there is any textual information anywhere?
My first impression from photos of 86 is that the white paint wasn't divided into blotches, but it was a rough not uniform painting, scarcely covering, that excludes part of the surface. I don't understand why the white is so sharply divided from green on the wings. Probably some repair of the fabric layer.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Tapani is working on profiles of I-153
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 13, 2016, 09:04:30 PM
Hi,
here is a small profile of 86.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/86/86-rightpr-rr.jpg)
This page includes an upper view.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/86/86.htm (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/86/86.htm)
As you can see, it is different from the drawing of the decals sheet.

regards
Massimo