Sovietwarplanes

IMHO, those must be the planes repainted in Soviet paints.  Paint is definitively glossy, so it can't be any AMT paint.

More examples from 438 iap (later 212 giap):

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all12/oborin_2.jpg)

P-39 flown by regiment commander A.V. Oborin in 1944.  Note map case reflections on the wing and on the fuselage

(http://www.krskstate.ru/dat/Image/0/1-448-302.png)

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

(http://airaces.narod.ru/all3/kozhevn3.jpg)

P-39 flown by A.L. Kozhevnikov in 1945 could have been repainted.

regards,
KL

Hi KL,
thank for nice photos. Yes, those planes are dark and glossy, really looks repainted. Question is what color they used, and if VVS paints, what color they used on the underwings instead of NG. Unfortunately rear fuselage & tail of Kozhevnikov's Cobra is not visioble.

Two profiles of the Kozhevnikov's Cobra(s):
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/kozhevn0.jpg)

(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/kozhevn9.jpg)

I do not know how reliable they are.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi KL,
thanks for info. I would be interesting to know whether Cobras overhauled in PARMs in 1945 were repainted let's say light blue AMT-7 underside and AMT-12 on upper surfaces, or by their oil equivalents.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here is profile of the late 4-blade-propeller P-39Q flown by Kozhevnikov:

EDIT Jan 24: updated profile is in my post bellow.

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

According to the Russian sources it is from 212 giap, spring 1945 and interestingly it has white nose. According to the other Russian sources Cobras from from 212 giap had blue noses, while white noses were on Cobras from 213 giap.
Neither serial number on the tail nor board number (on the left side of the front fuselage?) is not known to me.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
beautiful artwork again.
The prop blades seem stramgely light on the photo, seem silver. The spinner, instead, looks of the same color of the front of the cowling on the photo, while it looks different on the drawing.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank for comment. However, that picture is more-less work in progress.
I have already got info from VIF that there should be number "43" on the left side and latter there was a little number "43" also on the right side somewhere under the stars. Plus, Cobras from 212 giap had blue, or according to the some sources yellow noses. So we clarify it at VIF. Plus this Cobra should be polished and may be even darker.
So definitely the picture will be updated.
regards,
   66misos

First VIF comment by Alex:


so, it was definitively repainted, it was definitively glossy and photos were definitively taken after the war (summer 1945, maybe later ??)

- Since we have seen that after the war, VVS planes were painted in single gray (AMT-11 or sometimes AMT-12) on upper surfaces, I would suggest darker gray-blue.
- If it was so glossy on photos, make it glossy - the plane may have been painted with unknown glossy paint or varnished...
- IMHO, the plane was painted in one colour overall - this was also seen on some post-war VVS planes

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

IMHO, nose could be light blue - on the photo above, walls are white, plane's nose is darker...

Could you please post photos from "kopilka" - I can't sign on to AIF (some software problems...)

Regards,
KL    

Hi Misos
I see sort of scratch lines between the stars and the spinner. Could it be that a number was deleted on the photo for any reason?
All dark grey... strange but possible. There are photos of La-7 and P-39 in solid color, although lighter, presumably contemporary of this.
Regards
Massimo

Hi KL,
here they are. Both pictures were posted at AIF (VIF) Alex:

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_oborin_02_zpsvecn5hfg.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_Kozhevnikov_03_zpsm66hzp4t.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos

Hi,
here is updated profile of Kozhevnikov's Cobra - blue nose ans bright (NMF?) propeller blades. Let's say it is partially cloudy weather so glossy surface is not so evident ;-)

EDIT Jan 25: propeller had 3 blades, not four (see photo above), so I deleted profile and I am going to draw corrected new one.

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
if the blades are in a color different from the factory one, I think that stenciling shouldn't appear.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I do not know whether prop. blades are grey and highly polished, or they are NMF with protective clear varnish. But check the photo - stencil is visible on the usual place on the bottom blade.
(http://www.krskstate.ru/dat/Image/0/1-448-302.png)

No the tire on the main langing gear, it looks like from a car, not like standard one:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=972522&t=1)

HOWEVER, this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_Kozhevnikov_03_zpsm66hzp4t.jpg)
shows that propeller had 3 blades, not 4, so another correction is ahead :-[

EDIT: Outcome from the discussion on modelforum.cz
- there is missing black walkway outlined by red "no step" line.
- the dark long blotch on the wing root seems to be reflection of the fuselage and open doors on the polished glossy surface. Note regular black waves caused by bended metal surface.
- according to the memoirs of Senior engineer of 212 giap (woman) and simultanously wife of Kozhevnikovv his last Cobra had board number "38", not "43".
- his last confirmed aerial victory is dated on April 18, 1945. He was awarded HSU on Juny 1945.
- victory stars painted in regular geometrical shape mean that total number of stars were known at moment of painting.
- Kozhevnikov was commander of 212 giap that time.
All that supports opinion that this Cobra was repainted, decorated and polished before photo session or military parade or other celebration after the end of WWll.
Technicaly said, according to the calendar the Spring is from March 24 till June 21, so dating on the photo - spring 1945 - is correct.

Regards,
   66misos

It looks that two planes, one with 3-blade and one with 4-blade propellers had been repainted in dark glossy colour!!!


Photo session is not likely:  why repainting entire plane and than take photos with b/w film which can't register colour??? it doesn't make sense.  There isn't a single photo which would show entire plane in its "glory".  In short, those photos were taken to show people, not the plane...

I agree that the plane (or planes) were repainted after VE-day, but IMHO, summer 1945 was equally possible.  "Parad Pobedi" was on June 24, 1945 (technically summer!!!)

(http://makal47.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/2013-05-11_153544.jpg)

"Aviation Day" was in August, WWII ended in September 1945 - so there were many occasions for a military parade or an air show etc.

You would be safe if you say "Germany, after VE-Day"

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
when looking at theese 2 photos, both Cobras have 3-blades propeller, but there are differences:

Oborin
- commander of the 438 iap untill Aug 7, 1944 when he died (taran into Heinkel),
- HSU on April 10, 1945.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_oborin_02_zpsvecn5hfg.jpg)
- propeller is relatively dark and not polished, e.g. standard steelgrey factory paint,
- Cobra is cleaned, but not highly polished,
- Cobra has standard black walkway near the wing root.

Kozhevnikov
- commander of 438 iap during only a brief period from Aug 7, 1944 (Oborin's death) till Aug, 23 1944,
- 438 iap was renamed to 212 giap three months latter, on Oct 27, 1944,
- his last confirmed aerial victory is dated on April 18, 1945,
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_Kozhevnikov_03_zpsm66hzp4t.jpg)
- propeller is bright and polished,
- whole Cobra is highly polished, note even sharp dark reflection of the ground and prop blade on the fuselage,
- black walkaway near the wing root is missing.

Looking at the dates it is almost one year time difference between these two photos.

Three photos from the book "Песнь высоты" (Song of height) by T.B.Kozhevniokova, the wife of Koshevnikov http://www.migavia.com/books/kozhevnikova-tb.html (http://www.migavia.com/books/kozhevnikova-tb.html):
(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/27.jpg)
"Victory Day" - not the dark nose and spinner, really could be blue

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)
"Technical staff" - note the bright nose and board number probably 43/48/49(?) on the panel on the ground.

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/21.jpg)
While nose is highly polished the wing root around the wing trailing edge is quite matt/semigloss and the paint is scratched and abraded. The technician is sitting on the blanked covering wing root.

Regards,
   66misos

some dates that may help to date photos of Kozhevnikov's Airacobra:

27. November 1944: 438 iap renamed into 212 giap, 205 iad renamed into 22 giad, 7 iak renamed into 6 giak RSGVK
5. April 1945:  212 giap awarded Alexander Nevskii Order
11. May 1945: removed from "deistvuyushchei armii" (removed from combats)
26. June 1945: 22 giad/7 giak moved to Austria and attached to 2 VA of the "Central Army Group"

(From M. Bikov's encyclopedia "All Stalin's Fighter Regiments")

From Kozhevnikova's book:

- Самолеты перелетели в Германию и сели на площадку близ Альт-Розенберга... Самолеты рассредоточены в чистом поле, примыкающем к лесу. Никаких аэродромных сооружений нет. Все вокруг голр, пусто. Выпал небольшой снег ? холодно и сыро.
- 13 февраля перелетели на новое место. Это огромный базовый аэродром фашистской авиации. Все аэродромные здания и соседний городок Бриг целы... На дальних стоянках около тридцати исправных, но с пустыми баками ?юнкерсов?, в ангарах ?мессершмитты?, на складах ? запасы нового инструмента... Аэродром Бриг для инженерно-технического обеспечения, пожалуй, самый удобный из всех, на которых приходилось базироваться.
- В начале апреля полк перелетел на аэродром Лихтенвальдау. Собственно, на этом поле аэродрома никогда не было. Ровная площадка, окаймленная с двух сторон сосновым лесом, а рядом ? деревня... Вот уже четвертый аэродром, где мы не строим капониры ? земляные обваловки для укрытия самолетов, а ограничиваемся лишь маскировкой и рассредоточением [75] самолетов по сторонам взлетного поля.
- 15 апреля перелетаем на аэродром Фрайвальдау, а на следующий день началась последняя крупная битва в этой войне ? Берлинская операция.
- Занят Котбус (22 April 1945)? крупный город на автомобильной магистрали, ведущей в Берлин... И вот перебазирование, наверное последнее, на аэродром Даберн. Формирую передовую команду, она должна с рассветом прибыть к месту назначения. Готовим самолеты, ремонтируем поврежденные, к утру все машины должны быть исправны.

HTH,
KL

Hi,
I would add some additional data from the  T.B.Kozhevniokova's book:

November 5, 1943
... Pyatikhatki airfield ... a pair of planes taxied in the parking lot. They are scouts/recon. From the cockpit of the first one squadron commander Kozhevnikov: "The plane was shaking as in a fever."
We started inspection - there was a hole through the stabilizer - direct hit ... spar is interrupted, the stabilizer is held only on the casing and the ribs, and the wheel on one hinge...

January 1944
438th Regiment flies to a new airfield in Veselovka... German bombing raid...we came out from the still hot crater... in fnont of us is mangled aircraft of squadron leader Kozhevnikov, the aircraft that just three months ago came from intelligence with torn a hole in the stabilizer... Squadron commander Kozhevnikov meticulously chose a new aircraft after his previous one was destroyed at the airport under the bombs of the enemy...Kozhevnikov opted the plane with number 38.

November 27, 1944
438 iap was renamed into 212 giap - guard iap

February 13, 1945
We flew to a new location - Brig. This is a huge german base airfield. On the distant parking lots around thirty serviceable "Junkers" but with empty tanks, "Messerschmitts" in hangars, inthe warehouses inventory of new tools... for engineering and technical support, the airfield Brig perhaps the most convenient of all, we had based.

early April 1945
the regiment flew to the airfield Lichtenwalde. Actually, this was never airfield. Flat area, bordered on two sides by pine wood.

April 5, 1945
212 giap awarded Alexander Nevskii Order

April 15, 1945
we leapt to the airport Fraiwaldau, and the next day the last major battle of the war started - the Berlin operation.

April 18, 1945
Kozhevnikov's last confirmed aerial victory

April 22, 1945
Cottbus, a major city on the highway leading to Berlin is occupied... and probably the last relocation - airfield Dabern.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
profiles of Kozevnikhov's Cobra could be:

1. P-39Q still in original OD/NG camouflage, board number 38 according to book Song of height by T.B.Kozhevniokova, the wife of Koshevnikov and then senior technician of the regiment:

2. P-39Q most probably already after the WWII, repainted overall AMT-12 and polished. Board number 43 according to the VIF forum:

Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
thanks for the translation!  :D

Anatoliy Kozhevnikov wrote 3 books of memoirs.  First book "Zapiski istrebitelya" was published in 1959

(http://www.e-reading.club/cover/28/28172.png)

Alt-Rozenberg Airfield (January 20, 1945 to February 13, 1945)
? Под нами Германия! ? кричу по радио.
? Ура! Ура! Ура!.. ? раздается в ответ с самолетов.
...Это произошло 20 января 1945 года. Кстати, самолетов противника в этот день мы почти не встретили... К вечеру перелетаем на аэродром Альт-Розенберг.

Brig Airfield (Feb 13 to early April 1945)
В плотном строю группы пробились сквозь полосу снегопада и благополучно приземлились на отличной взлетно-посадочной полосе.
...На стоянках находились совершенно исправные самолеты. Они не могли подняться из-за отсутствия горючего. В авиамастерских стояли отремонтированные истребители, а в самом большом ангаре висел на талях самолет "Дорнье", покрашенный черной краской, что говорило о его принадлежности к отряду ночных разведчиков.
...А вот и немецкий авиационный штаб. Огромные фотолаборатории для обработки аэрофотосъемки, штурманские классы, оборудованные тренажерами...
...На нашем комфортабельном бригском аэродроме собралось до шестнадцати авиационных полков.
Тут стояли бомбардировщики, штурмовики, истребители. С целью их рассредоточения часть была переброшена в другие места. Исправные самолеты нашего полка улетели в Польшу, на аэродром Рудники, а подлежащие ремонту остались в Бриге.
... Вскоре началась частная операция по ликвидации группировки противника западнее города Опельн, и наше соединение снова сосредоточилось на аэродроме Бриг.

Lihtenvaldau Airfield (early April to April 15, 1945)
Наше соединение перелетает на аэродром Лихтенвальдау. После благоустроенного Брига он кажется особенно неудобным, неприспособленным, тесным. Весь день готовим стоянки для самолетов, маскируем машины от наблюдения с воздуха.

Fraivaldau Airfield (April 15 to April 22, 1945)
15 апреля к вечеру на малой высоте скрытно от врага перелетаем на аэродром Фрайвальдау, ближе к линии фронта. А утром следующего дня с рассветом полк построился под знаменем. Зачитываются приказ и обращение Военного совета фронта к войскам о наступлении на Берлин, на осиное гнездо фашизма. Короткие, трогающие за сердце речи летчиков. Идем в последний решительный бой! После митинга на самолетах появляются надписи: "Только вперед!", "На Берлин!", "Даешь Берлин!", "Отомстим за погибших товарищей!"


Kozhevnikov's first book ends with VE-day, May 9, 1945 in.  Some details about the period after VE-day are davailable in his second book "Startuet muzhestvo" published in 1966:

(http://cover.mreadz.com/292/291764_startuet_muzhestvo.jpg)

Dabern airfield, May 09, 1945 to June 26, 1945
Нaш полк приводил в порядок боевые сaмолеты. Тщaтельно проверялaсь кaждaя мaшинa. Солдaты-художники любовно рисовaли нa бортaх истребителей полковые нaгрaды.
Вскоре мы получили прикaз перебaзировaться в Австрию нa aэродром Тульн.

Tuln airfield, Austria (June 26 to June 27, 1945???)
Впереди, прямо по курсу, - длиннaя серaя полосa бетонки - бывший фaшистский aэродром. Он оборудовaн по последнему слову техники, взлетaть с него можно было в любую погоду. Здесь у гитлеровцев рaзмещaлся учебный центр, в котором готовили aсов воздушного боя.
... Просторные aнгaры вместили все сaмолеты нaшего гвaрдейского Ярослaвского орденa Алексaндрa Невского истребительного aвиaционного полкa. Гвaрдейские Сaндомирский и Ченстоховский полки сели нa соседних aэродромaх. Вся нaшa дивизия сосредоточилaсь вблизи Вены.
... - Товaрищ комaндир, - обрaтился ко мне мехaник Вaсильев, - рaзрешите сфотогрaфировaть вaс около сaмолетa, нa пaмять. А то ведь скоро по домaм рaзъедемся.
Этa мысль понрaвилaсь всем, и летчики рaзошлись, чтобы сфотогрaфировaться со своими мехaникaми у боевых мaшин.
... Перед вечером пришел прикaз - перебaзировaться зa Дунaй. Жaль было остaвлять тaкой прекрaсный aэродром, но что поделaть. Нa следующий день мы перелетели в Штокерaу. Здесь меня ожидaло рaдостное известие: мне присвоили звaние Героя Советского Союзa.

it's not clear how long 212 giap stayed at Tuln airfield; according to http://www.litmir.co/br/?b=206470&p=37
Тем временем, 28 июня 1945 г. 213-й Гв. ИАП был переведен в Австрию, на аэродром Тульн (30 километров северо-западнее г. Вены), а 25 июля перебазировался на аэродром Штоккерау (25 км северо-восточнее Вены) ? Тульн отходил к американской оккупационной зоне.

IMHO, you have all the info surrounding mysterious "dark Airacobra No 43/48/49"
Regards,
KL  

Hi Misos,
seem good as usual. The dark grey one is particularly interesting. I hope to receive your files soon.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
Your drawings of Airacobras flown by A.L. Kozhevnikov are interesting but there are still some questionable details and at least one detail that needs correction


Number "3" should be round, it didn't have a horizontal line at the top.  It was a symmetrical, its top half was rounded the same way as its lower half. Check the photo:

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)

Something like this number "43"

(http://www.bvvaul.ru/UserFiles/Image/vipuskniki/god1941/New_folders01/MorozovAS/MorozovAS2.jpg)

Also refer to

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/17/380017/i_080.jpg)

It's the only image of a 212 giap's post war Airacobra on which number can be clearly seen...

Regards,
KL

Hi,
It could be, I haven't seen it, but the style with horizontal top was predominant on photos that I've seen. I think it was preferred because it is different from cyrillic Z.
Regards
Massimo

You can see the number only on this photo:

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)

the second digit is clearly rounded... so rounded that it could be interpreted as 8 or 9.

BTW, could you please separate posts about Kozhevnikov's Airacobra into a separate thread?
Regards,
KL

Hi,
thanks a lot for comments.
Seems some guys at VIF prefer more declarations than discussions and do not like several subsequent why/what/what, they stopped respond from some moment.  :'(

Seems that on the photo the digit behind 4 has "open" left side, so it could be either 3 or 6. Not 8 or 9.
I thought about style of digit "3" and I checked a lot of photos. And as Massimo wrote 3 with straight line on top was much more preffered. I would even said that I did not find wartime nicely rounded digit 3.

Here are examples from the 22 giad where 212 giap belonged from the end-of-war period:
P-39 Airacobra from 129 giap:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/129giap/Pict11.jpg)

P-39 Airacobras from 213 giap:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap/Pict03.jpg)

However, I am even more confused with the font of 38.
Compare it with 5 on Oborin's Cobra:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1171562&t=1)

Kozhevnikov opted the plane with number 38 on January 1944 after his previous one was destroyed by bomb. It was almost one and half year untill the end of war - very long time for one Cobra, they usually survived several weeks, or months at the best. It is quite possible that 38 and 43 were two different Cobras.

Translated info provided by KL:
Dabern airfield, May 09, 1945 to June 26, 1945
Our regiment put in order all warplanes. Every plane was checked. Soldiers-artists lovingly painted regimental orders/medals on the fuselages.

Tuln airfield, near Vienna, Austria (June 26 to June 27, 1945)
All aircrafts of our Guard Yaroslavl Alexander Nevsky Order fighter regiment were put into large hangars...pilots and technicians went together to make common photos at their fighter planes.

Regards,
   66misos

I see, I wonder if there is some shadow or object that makes the number to look opened on its left upper side. Looks really a rounded 3.

I've done, but not sure that the work turned out well. It was difficult to decide where to start, and an enormous photo made things more difficult because it deformed the visualization.

Regards
Massimo

3 with straight line on top might have been more common on VVS planes, but rounded 3 did exist :

(http://www.warmech.ru/vse_dlia_fronta/lagg3_932.jpeg)

(http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_aircraft/f_ussr/pe-3/pe3_3.jpg)


It looks that 3 with straight line on top was an option, not "preffered", during the Soviet Union. 1981 GOST has this for Arabic and Roman numerals:

(http://www.pntd.ru/img/2_304_14.jpg) 

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
I fully agree.
I decided for the digit 3 with straight line on top on Kozhevnikov's Cobra only because the digits 3 on the other Cobras from the "sister" units from the same division, painted on the same position/style and from (roughly) the same time period have straight line on top. So it looks like painted by rule/template.
I know it is not proof, it is only my choice.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
as is, your drawing contradicts photographic evidence.

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)

It looks that everybody agrees that the number on the photo above is 43 (I agree too...). It is also clear on the photo above, that the second digit is rounded. So, it has to be "rounded 3"...  :)

When there is no material evidence, or the evidence isn't clear, you should use the closest analogy.  Photo of a plane from the same regiment is more relevant than photos of planes from "sister regiments". As I said before, the most relevant photo and the closest analogy is the photo below:

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/17/380017/i_080.jpg)

IMHO, digit 3 on Kozhevnikov's Airacobra was sprayed with a stencil that had a thin vertical line across. Something like this:

(http://static7.depositphotos.com/1167801/769/i/950/depositphotos_7690163-Stencil-numbers-in-spray-paint.jpg)

If you check the first photo in this post, there is a dent at the top of digit 3.  This dent probably indicates thin vertical line across the digit 3...

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
You are probably right. Anyhow, there was no response on my question at VIF whether info about no. 43 is only from that photo or from the other document.
Seems I will rework both profiles. According to the book they painted regimental orders in June at the airport near Viena. So "38" in OD/NG camo should be without orders painted on the doors, with stencils style digits 38.
Dark grey Cobra should have also stencils digits 43 and regimental orders painted on the doors.
I will do it probably next week.
Regards,
   66misos

How I understood your previous posts, Kozhevnikov got No "38" in January 1944 and it's questionable if that particular plane survived till the end of war.
IMHO, the closest analogy for Kozhevnikov's Airacobra No "38" is Airacobra flown by regiment commander Oborin, photographed in spring 1944:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1171562&t=1)

So, your drawing should depict Kozhevnikov's No "38" as it appeared in spring 1944: no orders painted on doors, probably no blue nose and no divisional white diagonal line on its tail. Just plain OD/NG Airacobra with white number "38" on its nose.  Font should be the same as on Oborin's Airacobra, something like this:

(http://forum.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/002613/2613722.jpg)

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
Exactly. However, there is not known photo of Cobra "38". Plus no known info when/if he switched from "38" to "43". Only the book sais about "38" and photo shows "43".
According to Alex from VIF there even was little "43"somewhere bellow victory stars. But no response for my question where is that info from. Neither serial number of "38" is known.
So I can only guess an early appearance of "38" exactly how how you described it above, or latter appearance - only the regimental/divisional elements of the fast recognition, e.g. white diagonal stripe on the tail and blue nose added. With overpainted serial number.
Regards,
   66misos


EDIT:
I tried to find appropriate font for digits 38 similar to "5" from Oborin's Cobra. Here is what I found on different P-39 and La-5:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/number%2038%20font_zpskfkthy1g.jpg)
Seems digit 3 should have straight line on the top.

Alex said:

Photos are quite clear... there is no number 43 under and in front of victory stars...

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_Kozhevnikov_03_zpsm66hzp4t.jpg)

you can get 3 by modifying 5. Strait line on top of 3 was more popular, so go for it...  ;)
Number 8 could be also derived from lower half of the number 5

Regards,
KL

Hi Misos,
a small correction from Kozhevnikova's book:

- it looks that Kozhevnikov's first Airacobra had been destroyed in German bombing raid end of February or beginning of March 1944 (not January 1944), so "38" became his personal plane in early March 1944.


Regards,
KL

Hi Misos,
check this photo:

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/e/egorov_a1.jpg)

212 giap, older font, coloured spinner, spring 1945(?)...

regards,
KL

Hi KL,
thanks a lot for that photo. :)
It confirms oldstyle font on the number "34", same as "5", so very probably also "38".
Note only propeller spinner is painted (light) blue, not whole nose like on "43".
I posted at VIF questions about serial number (propably not, overpainted) and diagonal white stripe (propably yes) on the tail. I hope some answer will come.
IMHO no badges were painted on the door. The photo seems to be from the war-time era, and according to Kozhevnikov's book Guard and Nevsky badges were painted on the P-39 doors after the war at the Dabern airport between May and June 1945.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
nice photos posted at VIF today:

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806240736&original=1&compatible=1)

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806228455&original=1&compatible=1)

The font of digits "34" is nicely visible as well as white stripe on the tail. However, not visible, whether serial number was on the tail, or was overpainted with green. No badges are painted on the doors.
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
enlarging the photo of the tail, it seems that the number was there, but unfortunately unreadable.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
or there is only a dark line separating rudder from the tail ???
Note the color of digits 34 - too dark for white. Light blue?, Yellow? I do not know, something like here?

(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_1squadron_tech.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Your question from VIF:


White diagonal stripe was fast recognition marking for 205 iad (later 22 giad).  It looks that marking existed from 1943 till the end of war.  Many profiles of 1944 205 iad/22 giad Airacobras with white diagonal but very few photos.
This photo is supposed to represent 508 iap (later 213 giap) Airacobra in January 1944 during Kirovograd operation:

(http://www.uhlib.ru/transport_i_aviacija/aviacija_i_vremja_2003_06/pic_124.jpg)

similar photo from RGAKFD is dated 1943 at 1st Ukrainian Front (meaning winter 1943/44)

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806058573&original=1&compatible=1)

So, all 212 giap Airacobras discussed here probably had white diagonal stripe.

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
Thank you for info. What do you think about color of the propeller spinners? 213 giap had white spinners at the end of war. Here they look darker, but not red like star on the fuselage.
Serials on the tails are not visible.
Regards,
   66misos

EDIT:
http://www.rulit.me/books/mir-aviacii-2002-02-read-299516-18.html (http://www.rulit.me/books/mir-aviacii-2002-02-read-299516-18.html)
P-39Q(-15) "Yellow 47", 213 giap, germany, airport Haro, June 1945:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1179708)
EDIT: According to Alex at VIF it should be 212 giap, not 213 giap.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
here is a better reproduction from a book:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/Kirovograd_P-39_zpsocanynkc.jpg)

Spinner definitively isn't white, so it isn't 508 iap (later 213 giap). It could be red (i.e. 129 giap), or light blue/yellow? (i.e. 438iap, later 212 giap).  IMHO, light blue is quite possible...

In post-war years 212 giap was based at following airfields:

May 45 - June 45   Dzhagra, Germany
26 June 45 - 27 July 45    Tullna an der Donau, Austria
27 July 45 - 14 March 47   Stockerau, Austria

-  In autumn 1946 started to replace P-39 Airacobras with P-63 Kingcobras
-  Disbanded on 14 March 1947

HTH,
KL

 

Hi,
here is another nice photo od P-39 b/n "47"from 212 giap:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1179994)

Propeller spinner, number 47 and also diagonal stripe on the tail seem all are painted in the same color (light bue?, yellow?) Compare it with the white outline on the red star.
It reminds me this after-war Cobra "44", only not completly repainted:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict03.jpg)

Unforunately serial no. on the tail of "47" is not readable.
Seems the light blotch on the door is only shinning, not painted Guard and Nevsky badge.

"19" s/n 2207x5, e.g. 42-207x5 is P-39Q-10.
Serial no. on "47" look like long 6-digits number starting with 4, e.g. 47xxxx, e.g. 44-7xxxx so it should be P-39Q-30.
It means there should be at least 1 or 1,5 year time difference between photo of "19" and "47".

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
could the number be 474673?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
I am well aware of the time difference.  If you check my previous post, I have clearly indicated January 1944 for the time when "19" was photographed.

Airacobra No"19" is closest to the Airacobra No "38" which was mentioned in Kozhevnikova's memoirs and never seen on photographs.  If you speculate how "38" looked (you have already made its profile), it should have:

- white tail diagonal line - fast recognition marking for 205 iad
- original US serial No (still unknown...)
- red star with narrow white border and thin red outline
- no guards badge on door
- white No "38" painted on its nose in "decorative font" with horizontal top line
- light blue (or yellow??) spinner

Characteristics listed above should also apply to the Airacobra No "5", flown by 438 iap commander A.V. Oborin.  Oborin was an HSU, an ace with 13 personal and 13 group victories - you should make a profile of the Airacobra he flew.


It is a nice photo - and a nice war trophy car... just a few comments:

- note branches on the ground (planes had been camouflaged).  This indicates combat status, IMHO the photo was taken in April-May 1945
- note slogans written to the right and above the fuselage star.  Slogans can be seen on both "47" and on the plane at the right side of the photo. From Kozhevnikov's memoirs, slogans appeared on April 15, 1945, at the beginning of Berlin operation
- IMHO there is a faint guards badge on doors of the "47".  Badges were painted in May-June 1945
- isn't that a 4-blade propeller on "47"?  It should be P-39Q-25-BE (Model 26Q-25)...

HTH,
KL  

Hi KL,
very good and interesting observation. Here I made them better visible:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1180067)

regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
following is a qoute from A.L Kozhevnikov's book "Zapiski istrebitela" (one of my previous posts!)


Slogans appeared on April 16, 1945...
HTH,
KL

Hi KL,

info from VIF today - there was the same slogan on all Cobras - "Отомстим за Николая Живова", e.g. "Otomstim za Nikolaya Zhivova"

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

Regarding P-39Q No "19":
- Red stars should have narrower white outline (red stars probably modified in field to comply with Sept 1943 regulations)
- Number 19 looks too heavy, number 1 is definitively too thick, whole number could be too big?
- One-line comment should be corected: P-39Q-10, 438 iap, January 1944, Kirovograd offensive, Ukraine.

Regarding P-39Q No "5":
- Red stars should have narrower white outline
- One-line comment should be corected:  P-39Q, A.V. Oborin, 438 iap, spring or summer 1944 (Oborin was killed in a taran attack on August 07, 1944)

Regarding P-39Q No "34":
- spinner and nose number should be the same colour (yellow?)
- One-line comment should be corected: P-39Q, N.G. Kuzmin, 212 giap, March 1945, Germany (on March 16, 1945, Kuzmin shot down 3 Me-109s; his last 3 victories...)

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/e/egorov_a1.jpg)
photo avove shows spinner and number painted in same colour

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806240736&original=1&compatible=1)
Squadron commander Yegorov (and unknown pilot) congratulate Kuzmin his victories

HTH,
KL

Hi Misos,
It looks that AIF experts Owl-99 and Alex (Mihail Bykov and Aleksey Pekarsh) didn' like yellow nose... Can you start a new thread at AIF and ask about the 205 iad markings - are there any evidences in documents, memoirs or interviews? Or "historians" and profile artists only guess colours from b/w photos??

I agree with Bykov that there should be some logic, (although he said "even in misinterpretations, fantasies and speculations" and I don't think we are dealing with fantasies...)

-  combination "red-blue-white" makes more sense than "red-yellow-white".  Yellow and white spinners were too similar and not likely to be used as recognition markings within the same unit (205 iad)
-  Tail diagonal and spinner colour were established at the division level, maybe even at the higher level (Corpus or Air Army?).  It's unlikely that a regiment would change them during the war.  It might have been different after the war...

I would suggest following:
1. both spinner and number "34" are light blue, slightly darker than gray propeller blades
2. number "34" was originally white and repainted in blue by hand.  Check photo bellow, blue brush strokes and small areas of white close to the edges are clearly visible

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806240736&original=1&compatible=1)

HTH,
KL

Hi,

EDIT: updated profiles of P-39 Cobras from 212 giap in the posts bellow.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
those profiles look really good!

Some comments regarding No "47":

-  fourth digit in the serial number has to be 9.  P-39Q-25 with serial numbers starting with 470 were from a 200 plane batch 44/70905/71104 (i.e. from 470905 to 471104). 
Your profile represents one of 95 planes with serials from 470905 to 470999.  Remaining 105 planes had serial starting with 471... (from http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_15.html )

-  Make the best guess for the fifth digit.  To my eye it's 5 and the complete serial is 470953

-  P-39Q-25 must have had markings with white discs.  Those planes were made at the end of P-39 production in spring 1944 and that is exactly the time when white discs were painted in Bell factory.  Your profile represents a plane with white discs repainted by the Soviets.  They also added wide white and thin red outlines around the red stars.

-  Add slogan written in white in 2 lines.  Maybe "Otomstim za" in first line and "Nikolaya Zhivova" in second line (although on the photo the second line looks much shorter that the first!)?  IMHO, it would be unusual to write personal name in two lines, so maybe there were 2 slogans:  "Otomstim za Nikolaya Zhivova" and "Na Berlin" below it?

-  Because of the slogan and because the medals are absent from the door, this profile represent plane as it looked at the beginning of the Battle of Berlin (16 April ? 8 May 1945).  Comment under your profile should be:

P-39Q-25 212 giap, beginning of the Battle of Berlin[/b] (16 April ? 8 May 1945), Freiwaldau airfield (Silesia, 109 km NE of Dresden), Germany

-  I would suggest to change tail diagonal colour to yellow!!!  Photo shows that the diagonal's colour is the same as the colour of the serial number (yellow...)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1180067)

Yellow tail diagonal  would be consistent with the diagonal on post-war P-29 No "44"

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict04.jpg)

We are pretty sure that diagonal on "44" was yellow because there are two photos of it one taken with yellow filter and one with no filter...  :)

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
thanks a lot for feedback and you analyse. :D
Proposed serial number looks OK, I will change it, same as yellow diagonal stripe on the tail.
What about digits 47? Yellow or blue? Although yellow color was mentioned at VIF as real option they strongly prefer blue color now.
Green disc under the red star is already there, white and red outline on the star tips is reaching out from the green disc.
I will try to fit slogan to area like on the photo, we will see how it goes. Anyhow, in this case I would not exclude name in two lines.
Seems guys at VIF do not like our approach/work, they give only rare responds lately. ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

I would keep number "47" blue...  because there is a photo of Kuzmin's number "34" from March 1945 which shows that number and spinner were the same colour  (i.e. blue).

Regarding the red stars:  there should be a clear distinction between the Airacobras made in 1943 and Airacobras made between January and July 1944:  
-  1943 Airacobras had 1943 USAF markings over-painted by Americans with OD/NG paints
-  1944 Airacobras had white discs over-painted by Soviets with local green/light blue paints.

I can't see that difference on your profiles...  :o

Also, the width of the white outline around the red star could be wider than on your profiles.  Those were field applied markings, not perfect factory sprayed markings.  Some instructions show radius of the red star as one half of the radius of the complete marking.  something like this:

(http://sp-familyshop.ru/files/d55/d55b4d884710a06f01b19b26abb49a10-fit-250x250.png)
  
IMHO, "47" should definitively have wider white outline than what you have.  

- Font in which number 47 is written should be similar to the number 34 on Kuzmin's Airacobra:  digit 4 has shorter vertical line, top horizontal line on digit 7 should be the same as the curved horizontal line on digit 3.  Check again number "34":

(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806240736&original=1&compatible=1)

HTH,
KL

P.S.  thanks for that "our work"   :)
IMHO, your profiles look better and are better researched than any P-39 Airacobra profiles published in Russia...

Hi,

EDIT: Updated profiles are in the following posts.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
"47" turns into an interesting case and an attractive profile/modelling subject.

Slogan and yellow diagonal look convincing...   :D
How about making white line around the red star wider?  Also, the nose number font should be consistent with No "34", especially digit 7 and its top line.

You started with Kozhevnikov's plane and you will end with the complete coverage of all known 438 iap/212 giap Airacobras!!!  Good job!

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
thank you for appretiation :)
Photo of P-39 b/n 47 was mapped on the P-39 drawing to get proportions and 47 as you can see is the result. It is similliar to 34 but not the same, not so "fat". But yes, font could be more simmilliar.
I will rework red star, white outline will be a bit thicker.
However, it has to wait for a while. i have to edit a short doc movie now.
Regards,
    66misos


PS: I am still not decided whether to make also Kozevnikov's "fictional" 38 or not. There is so many Cobras I would like to make.

Better not... make profiles of those Airacobras for which there is photographic evidence.

You need to fine tune profiles that you already have:

1.  Post-war Airacobra No "56" probably had yellow tail diagonal.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap/Pict03.jpg)

this because all Airacobras on April 1945 photo had yellow diagonals!!!

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1180067)


2.  Post-war Airacobra No "44" should have blue spinner/nose!!! Or, maybe this plane had been repainted in blue AMT-7 overall?

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict04.jpg)

This because all other 212 giap Airacobras had blue noses...  ;D

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
this photos at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18097#msg18097 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18097#msg18097) are from March 1945, and diagonal stripe on the tail is very bright (still white?):
(http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/getImage.do?object=1806228455&original=1&compatible=1)

However, it seems to be forming interesting pattern:
- all wartime Cobras 212 giap, and probably 213 giap have repainted only propeller spinners, while end-war/after-war Cobras has repainted also part of the front fuselage, not onlyspinners,
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.15 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.15)
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18102#msg18102 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18102#msg18102)
- war-time b/n fonts look more "old fashioned", while after-war fonts look more "strict or technical"
- yes, all late-war Cobras from 212 giap originally white diagonal stripe repainted with darker color, probably yellow.

1. Then what about this, heavily retouched photo of the after-war Cobra "43" from 212 giap?
(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)
Experts at VIF agreed that nose&spinner are light blue, b/n 47 has "technical" stencil font.
But what is the color of the diagonal stripe on the tail? It should/could be yellow to fit the pattern. ???

2. And what about the nose of the after-war Cobra "44" also from 212 giap?
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)
Prop. spinner and nose have the same or very similiar color as the fuselage. But there is a thin line sepparating usually repanted nose part from the fuselage. And area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner are darker.
It almost looks like spinner and nose part are painted yellow outlined with the thin red line and red area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner. Light blue over bluegrey does not make sense.

Regards,
   66misos

Photo above is unrelated to Kuzmin's "34"...  Check again original RGAKFD link http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/showObject.do?object=1806228408
photo was taken in 1943, by different photo-correspondent and it isn't 1st Ukrainian Front.  This photo can not be used as a proof that in 1945 212 giap Airacobras had white tail diagonal...

I am more concerned with No "47" photo you posted at AIF:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MA/MA02-2/23-1.jpg)

Личный состав 213 ГвИАП возле P-39Q-15 (желтый 47), принадлежавший звену управления полка. Дмитрий Калинин сидит между лопастей. Германия, аэродром Гаро, июнь 1945г.

(Photo and comment were published in Мир Авиации 2002-02 magazine.  Article is about Дмитрий Андреевич Калинин, author is В.Мартианов)

It seems to  be the same P-39Q-25 No "47" as seen on the following photo:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1180067)

Check also text about 213 giap pilot Vasiliy Mihalev published in Istoriya Aviatsiyi 2004-1:  http://coollib.com/b/231727/read
Author of this text is Aleksey Pekarsh (a.k.a. VIF forum Alex).  Following is what Pekarsh writes about 213 giap markings:
 

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
The text from Istoriya Aviatsiyi 2004-1 by Aleksey Pekarsh (a.k.a. VIF forum Alex) about 213 giap markings:
"...508 iap...P-39N-1, N-5 и Q-5... big white board numbers (paint by brush over stencil) on the front fuselage... their style and and way of application kept until the end of war... B/n of the 1st squadron started with 1, b/n of the 2nd and 3rd squadron started with 2 and 3... Michalev as a leader of the 3rd sq. had b/n 30... US Serial on the tail were repainted rarely, usually after overahul... In the autumn 1944 508 iap war rearmed with new P-39Q-15, now b/n of the individual squadrons started with 7,8 and 9, command flight had 100, 101 and 102... Michalev received P-39 s/n 44-2845 and white b/n 90 (written off on Jan 18, 1945)... M. Ekochergin P-39Q-15 s/n 44-2838 b/n white 70... That time Cobras (mix of Q-15, 20 and 25) from already 213 giap...Guard badge on the right door. Plus white color from the sprop. spinner war extended to the nose fuselage...From spring 1945 A. Nevsky badge on the left doors... At the end of war they stopped to repeate b/n from lost planes onto new replacements, but they continued with the actual numbers, resulting to many unsusual 3-digits board numbers... After 2013 giap was ordered by Bogdan Khmelnickij order, they again repainted badged on the doors - small Guard badges were on both left and right doors and both orders (Nevskij and Khmelnickij) were placed adjacent on the sides."

nicely fit following photos:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap/Pict03.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap/Pict06.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/213giap/Pict08.jpg)

There is no mention about b/n 47. Moreover, when I posted photo of the "47" at VIF, Alex replied: "Маленькая поправка: "47" - это тоже 212 Гв.ИАП" - A small correction: "47" - is also 212 Gv.IAP.
Note description under the "47" photo: Личный состав 213 ГвИАП возле P-39Q-15 (желтый 47), принадлежавший звену управления полка. Дмитрий Калинин сидит между лопастей. Германия, аэродром Гаро, июнь 1945г. - ...P-39Q-15 (yellow 47)... AFAIK Q-15 had 3-blades propellers, not 4-blades.


Regards,
   66misos

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MA/MA02-2/23-1.jpg)

213 GIAP personnel in front of P-39Q-15 (yellow 47), which belonged to the regiment staff flight (command flight/section?). Dmitri Kalinin sits between the propeller blades. Germany, airfield Garo, June 1945. ("Mir Aviatsiyi" magazine 2002-2, text about Dmitriy Andreevich Kalinin by V. Martinov)



Yes, the author Martinov misidentified P-39Q subtype and made up that part about the "yellow 47" being a regiment staff flight plane

The truth is that 212 giap and 213 giap shared same airfield in Germany in May-June 1945 and it happened that 213 giap personnel had been photographed in front of the 212 giap Airacobra...

Photo is useful because it shows that spinner was different colour, i.e. lighter, than number 47.  As an option, you may try yellow number and light blue spinner.  As AIF experts have correctly pointed, the spinner colour should be the same for all 212 giap planes...  ;)

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
no problem. I will make b/n 47 yellow while spinner will be kept light blue. But to follow the same logic, b/n 34 should be also yellow. And spinner with nose of the "yellow 44" should be also light blue (with red decorations)?
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
it looks that numbers had several colours in 1945:

No 34 is the same colour as spinner (blue...?)

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/e/egorov_a1.jpg)

No 47 is darker than spinner (yellow...?)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MA/MA02-2/23-1.jpg)

No 56 is white

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap/Pict02.jpg)

No 43 is white

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)

No 44 is yellow

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

Regards,
KL

Hi Misos,
I am trying to see how blue spinner looked on b/w photos.  Spinner tip on Normandie-Niemen Yaks was blue

(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Yak-3/Normandie-Niemen/images/Normandie-Niemen-pilots-Joseph-Risso,-Derbe-and-Noel-Castelain-next-to-a-Yak-1B-02.jpg)

(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Yak-3/Normandie-Niemen/images/Yak-1B-18-GvIAP-Simon-Sibirin-and-Albert-Littolf-after-he-shot-down-a-German-Fw-189-01.jpg)

(http://normandieniemen.free.fr/Jacques_de_Saint_Phalle.jpg)

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/08/21//15082110571618634313522746.jpg)

(http://www.normandieniemen.com/rubriques/histoNN/bios/feldzer/images/yak9.jpg)

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/yak_3.ayeu5sy9u7ksosoow0cwko8o4.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/d3/04/a3d304d6fecd11155875a61d2d09bc31.jpg)

(http://finparty.ru/upload/iblock/3ac/3ac5bf1cc59653d02c2c938c5ea203fc.jpg)

On black-and-white photos, N-N spinner blue looks significantly darker than 212 giap spinners.

If 212 giap spinners were blue, the blue colour must have been lighter "sky" blue, something like undersides AMT-7 "Goluboi". In theory, sky blue is not a "quick recognition colour" - it makes spinner "invisible" against blue sky, not distinctive...

Regards,
KL 

fascinating discussion, and a lot of good detective work and data collection.  I've not posted anything as I have had nothing to add before.

A couple of points about Konstantin's last post.

Blue is a tricky colour on B/W film,  use of filters or different film types can radically change the appearance of blue, as can be seen in the above pics,  I've not seen Orthochromatic film used in Soveit photos, but this film type makes blue very pale, and yellow appear as black
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958226-colour-interpretation-of-bw-photos/

also
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937019-pru-spitfire/


I know these re slightly off the main topic, but are worth considering as factors in the appearance of colours. for example, some of the NN plans blue tips appear very pale, some are dark, but they are most likely very similar in reality.

Use of sky blue as a recognition measure?
 well, the RAF used Sky spinners for 4 years,  a colour that blends in at a distance can still be used for as a  quick identification marking at closer range.

HTH
T

Hi,
IMHO N-N spinners were painted by some sort of a bit darker "French" blue.
However, on other VVS Cobras (30 giap, http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/30giap/page_06.htm (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/30giap/page_06.htm)) blue spinners look quite light:

- here blue spinner and yellow b/n 93:
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_1squadron_tech.jpg)

(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_technicians.jpg)

(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_1squadron_pilots_2.jpg)

I do not say it had to be AMT-7, may be some "local custom mix" resulting in some light blue. May be even lightened AMT-7, which is quite dark.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Troy,
that is useful info about b/w films and filters.  Photos are extreme cases, it's not just "without yellow filter and with the filter".  That PR Spitfire  is blue  like these:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8f/56/be/8f56bee325b47345e2badced24c7afc7.jpg)

(http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/News%20Stories%20I/Honouring%20Bill%20Carr/Carr18.jpg)

(http://www.aviationbanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=54018&d=1329660106)

Normaly on b/w photos PR Spitfires are grayish and British roundel looks "normal"

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/en830/Misc%20Aircraft/SpitfireXIXa.jpg)

(http://aircrewremembered.com/editorial/resources/541-squadron-spitfire-pr-xi-pl775-ai.w.m-copy-w760.jpg)

Hi Konstantin

the Spitfire in the comparison photos I posted is most likely not PRU Blue.   

PR Aircraft in the Middle and Far East were often in a darker blue colour, with lighter blue in the roundels.   
This was for the same reason that the RAF developed Azure Blue for underside use, as the tropical skies are a darker blue.
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944154-roundel-colour-in-royal-blue-pr-spitfires/

There is a very interesting book on Photo Reconnaissance in the Far East called 'Eyes For The Phoenix'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eyes-Phoenix-Photo-reconnaissance-Operations-South-East/dp/0951989944

pdf's are floating around the web. despite it perhaps seeming a narrow area, it covers a lot, including some very useful colour information on Far East colour schemes in general and on various colour systems for describing colour.   

I'll add some more info later when I dig the book out.

HTH
T

EDIT

OK, here is a scan of a paint chip chart from a book on RAF colours
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/bstablegb_1.JPG)

Note Dark Mediterranean Blue is one colours used on Middle East PR Spitfire, as was the mixed 'Royal' or 'Bosun' blue mentioned in the linked thread

this is a Far East Hurricane in a dark blue colour, note the yellow rings around the wing roundels to make them stand out, as the roundel blue and uppers were similar/same colour.

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy225/redironbark/CI120_HurricanePRMarkIIBBM969_No3PRU_DumDumIndiaflightoverBengal.jpg)

from a lengthy thread here
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925271-pr-hurricane-colours-middle-east/

I know off topic, but hope of interest.

Hi
(http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/30gviap/30gviap_1squadron_pilots_2.jpg)
I see that the paint of the spinner is as matt as the olive drab. This suggests that it was a paint intended for camouflage instead of markings. If it is stated that it  was blue, A-28m or AMT-7 look likely.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
"47" looks good, drawing may be considered as final!   :)
You have to change comment: it can't be summer 1945 - by summer slogan probably disapeared and medals/orders appeared on doors.  IMHO, the comment should be:

P-39Q-25 212 giap, during Berlin Offensive operation (16 April ? 8 May 1945), Freiwaldau airfield, Silesia and Dabern airfield, Brandenburg, Germany


Some of comments regarding "44":

- there is no red line between the blue nose and the rest of the plane behind.  It's just a panel line...
- IMHO red cannon shroud and red around m.g. openings looks somewhat strange.  Maybe black or dark gray...
- I wouldn't insist on AMT-11 - maybe something that looks similar, real paint is unknown
- "44" looks very glossy, same as Kozhevnikov's "43" - both planes were repainted with non-camouflage paints
- in 213 giap text, Alex says that regiment received P-39Q-5 in autumn 1943 and then P-39Q-15 in spring 1944.  Is "44" a P-39Q-5 ?
- photos look post-war, my guess is second half of 1945 or 1946.  At that time 212 giap was based at Stockerau military training grounds (it wasn't an airfield originally!).

Comment for "44" should be:

P-39Q-5, 212 giap, second half of 1945 or 1946, Stockerau, Austria

HTH,
KL    

Hi KL,
I am a bit confused with (red) outline. They added it on side of diagonal stripe on the tail and around digits 44, although there was no outline previously on other Cobras.
They either needed to increase their (e.g. stripe and number 44) visibility in case they were light blue like nose, or outline had only decorative purpose - then it was OK also even around very good visible yellow stripe and number.
Then, if it was only about increasing visibility of the blue stripe and number, red decoration on the nose around the guns had really no sense.
But if red color had decorative purpose, I can imagine it even with red line sepparating "divisional" color from "protective" color on the nose very easily.
It was already old Cobra (missing vent between propeller and front leg), so it could be used only for training after end of war.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
there are some similarities between Kozhevnikov's "43" and "Yellow 44":  both were over-painted overall, both are glossy (non-camouflage paint), both were photographed in Austria (Kozhevnikov's "43" in July 1945, "Yellow 44" later in 1945 or in 1946).

- "Yellow 44" had yellow tail stripe, maybe "white 43" also had yellow stripe?

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
I would say tthat there is painted line. The whole Cobra was freshly repainted, no reasom for some dirty or grease in tha area to make just that panel ine so prominent. There are also other panel line almost invisible. Also "panel line" of gun compartment cover plate is almot not visible.
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

Compare panek lines with this cleane "new" Cobra:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/P-39Q_Airacobra_weapons_bay.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/P-39Q_Airacobra.jpg)

regards,
   66misos

Ok, maybe there is a thin line... it's thinner than red line under the number 44.
Cannon shroud and openings around machine guns are definitively painted. IMHO, black makes more sense - to hide blast stains.
Regards,
KL

Hi,
so come back to Kozhevnikov's "43":
(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/17.jpg)
It is heavily retouched so spinner&nose and diagonal stripe are not very reliable.
But look at wing leading edge - from the bottom to the top there is dark underwing area in the shadow, then along the whole leading edge is very thin bright (underwing?), next is dark area (upperwing) and then again bright area which is shining on the polished dark upperwing.
It does not look like the wing is dark from the bottom. So, what is that bright underwing area? Light blue? ???

Here is the summary of all discussed Cobras from 212 giap:
- War-time ?19? (January 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 19, white diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?5? (summer 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 5, white diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?34? (March 16, 1945) - blue spinner, blue/yellow(?) no. 34, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?47? (April 15, 1945) - blue spinner, yellow no. 47, yellow diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?43? (June 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 43, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?56? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 56, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?44? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, yellow no. 44, yellow diagonal stripe on the tail, red outline.

Regards,
   66misos

 

Hi Misos,

some thoughts about the post-war "Yellow 44":  it looks to me that the plane was repainted in glossy light blue overall.  This was done in occupied Austria, so it's possible that mechanics who overhauled this old Airacobra used German paints.  Did Luftwaffe use any glossy light blue or glossy light blue-gray oil paints?

I don't think that "Yellow 44" was intended to be decorative - it looks more utilitarian: single colour that was on hand, no victory stars or medals, only regimental and divisional markings (blue nose and yellow tail diagonal).  Red lines were necessary to separate markings from light blue plane...


Photo has been heavily "doctored" so it's only importance is that it shows plane's No...  bright line could have been added by the retoucher, it could be a reflection, or maybe the plane was photographed before the unersides have been repainted.  More relevant are better quality, unretouched photos:

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

(http://www.migavia.com/images/kozhevnikova_tb/21.jpg)

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_438%20iap%20latter%20212%20giap_Kozhevnikov_03_zpsm66hzp4t.jpg)

I would summarize 438 iap/212 giap colours this way:

- War-time ?19? (January 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 19, white tail diagonal
- War-time ?5? (summer 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 5, white tail diagonal
- War-time ?34? (March 16, 1945) - blue spinner, blue no. 34, yellow tail diagonal
- War-time ?47? (April 16, 1945) - blue spinner, yellow no. 47, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?56? (summer 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 56, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?43? (July 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 43, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?44? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, yellow no. 44, yellow tail diagonal

Underlined features are confirmed with photographic evidence (photos  ;D ).  1945 Yelow tail diagonal has been confirmed for 2 Airacobras and inferred for 3 Airacobras... it would be better if there is more evidence, but at least there is some...

HTH,
KL

Hi Misos,
this is a good candidate to be an "owner" of "White 56" :    http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=00000002370

Mayor Aleksandar Ivanovich Medvedev was a 212 giap squadron commander, Medvedev ended war with 10 personal victories, all scored in 1943/44 while flying P-39s.

"White 56" score shows 9+1 and Medvedev's score is 10+0, this would be a question for AIF experts...

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/17/380017/i_080.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap/Pict03.jpg)

Comment for Your profile should be:

P-39Q-15, 212 giap, A.I. Medvedev, summer 1945, Tulln an der Donau or Stockerau airfields, Austria

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
Seems we already see the light at the end of tunnel. ;)
Yes, the very same Lichtblau that was probably used also on Sukhov's P-39 "50" repainting, more at http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/sukhov.htm (http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/sukhov.htm). So yes, P-39 "yellow 44" could be German Licht blau RLM76.

I will rework recent Cobras according to these final conclusions. A lot of work ahead, but at the end it will be nice collection.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi,
I don't think that German military colors as RLM 76 were glossy. Anyway it was similar enough to later Soviet A-36g/m.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
Kozhevnikov's "White 43" was photographed in July 1945, it was probably repainted in May-June 1945, maybe even earlier in March 1945.  This was way too early for any glossy Soviet paints (A-XXg or AGT).

"Yellow 44" was photographed later, in second half of 1945 or in 1946.  212 giap started replacing P-39s with P-63 in fall 1946, regiment was disbanded in early 1947.  A-XXg or AGT paints were available in 1946, but AGT-16 and A-36g were not. Last two paints appeared later in 1947.

Regards,
KL

Hi,
those German war paints were at least semi-gloss when new, if not very glossy:

early war:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=392337)

late war:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=6307)
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=392462)

This is from musem, but somehow like this could look Cobra freshly repainted with German light blue:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=10578)

This plane is photographed under the very similar conditions like Cobra "44" - almost exactly from the side during bright sunny day with the sun almost directly behind photographer (note shadows) and surface looks also semi-gloss or glossy:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=17978)
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi, I see. I'm aware that A-36g appeared later, I meant that the look of the color on a profile is similar between A-36g and RLM-76.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
RLM-76 looks too anemic and too similar to at that time non-existent AGT-16.  :(

I would go with something more similar to "goluboi" which is described as "Capri blue"

(https://files1.trustedsite.net/service/5-SRHKX/image/grotta-azzurra_z_0_0_514.20150513162956.jpg)

Maybe glossy RLM-65 Helleblau, so you are also covered for 1946 AGT-7 (glossy AMT-7).

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
here are two basic notes about light blue RLM 76, which can be found on different web sites:

1. In August 1944 a set of regulations Sammelmitteilung Nr. 2, emphasized that: "With the issue of this camouflage guide the industry is expressly forbidden to use any other camouflage types or colours, e.g. in response to special requests from front-line units, than those specified in the camouflage guide." It directed that RLM 65 was to be replaced on the underside of aircraft by RLM 76.

2. During the last year of the war...all painting charts and instructions (Oberfl?cheshutzliste or Os-liste) for aircraft...specifically state that the underside colour was to be RLM 76, or, to remain unpainted in natural metal.

3. The undersides of many German aircraft carrying everything from light blue, light gray, and even grey-green as their version of RLM 76.

Here are examples of the RLM colors interpretations http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html)

So at the end of/after the war RLM65 was not an option, only light blue RLM76. But its tones varied so much, that almost any light blue is possible. So I will change color of "Yellow 44" from bluegrey AMT-11 to some light blue shade somewhere among RLM interpretation and finito. Even so, every monitor will show it differently. The nose with spinner will be in the slightly different light blue color, separated by thin red line. Areas around nose guns probably dark grey.

Interesting info. It means, we could have another "named" Cobra. :)

Regards,
   66misos

This PR Spitfire must be similar to the Spitfire in odd colours from Troy's first post:

(http://acesofww2.com/can/aces/weaver/spit-x.jpg)

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/Trzeci/BR112_X.jpg)

BR112 "X" was shut down over Sicily on September 9, 1942 (pilot Sgt. Claude Weaver was captured). From  http://acesofww2.com/can/aces/weaver/

Similar location, similar Spitfire mark, similar roundel type...

Regards,
KL

Good plan!  ;)
Most important aspect is that the paint was glossy, so the plane should be made "shiny".

Colour could be tweaked to be somewhere between blue-gray AGT-11 (to my eye RLM-76 is also blue-gray) and pure blue AGT-7.  I.e. more bluish than AGT-11/RLM-76 and a bit more grayish than AGT-7.
We don't know exactly what paint was used; the best way around this is to make a colour that looks close to all 3 paints mentioned above...

KL

HI Konstantin

No, sorry.  The Spitfire in the colour pic is a one of the Malta Spitfires!  What these got painted is even more esoteric, and hotly debated !
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Malta-Spitfire-Vs-Colours-Markings/dp/8361421793

The Malta Spitfire spent most of their time flying over the sea, so the desert colours didn't work.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511iKxf5XBL._SX369_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Anyway, this is a in-field repaint, looks to be something like "Extra Dark Sea Grey" 

note this captioned picture
(http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/uploads/post-2-1096233915.jpg)



It not the same as the PR Spitfire I initially posted,  which is most likely a dark blue, say like Dark Mediterranean Blue, or the mixed 'bosun' blue.  As I said before,  the PR units in the med used a darker blue than PRU Blue.

It's a complex subject!

HTH
T

Hi Troy,
thanks for the explanation!  I naively believed that every blue Spitfire is a PR Spitfire.  :-X

So, BR112 "X" was actually something like darker version of blue-gray AMT-11...

Cheers,
KL

Sorry, I think that light blue is too unlikely. Very few planes of any nation and age were painted in light blue, and they were all intended for high altitude use: PRU blue of Spitfires, blue of P-38, air superiority blue of F-15...
Nor the blue overall color, nor the high altitude use are in line with Soviet planes of the period.
Prewar planes were light grey. Postwar planes were grey-blue. Why should be anything so different in half way?
Besides, this would kill the contrast of the light blue utilized on the nose as marking.
Regards
Massimo
 

It's going to be grayish blue, somewhat lighter than AMT-11, I guess...

It is clear that camouflage wasn't a concern when planes were repainted in 22 giad in 1945-46, after WWII.  It is more likely that the planes were painted with whatever paint was available.  I have never supported this approach, but in this case it seems to be the only explanation.  We have photos of 3 planes photographed at same airfield, all 3 were overhauled/repainted shortly after the war (second half of 1945 or 1946) and all 3 are in nonstandard schemes:

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/k/kozhevnikov8.jpg)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1172990)

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1118351)

(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict04.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict05.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/grey22giad/Pict06.jpg)

Last Airacobra, No "100" isn't light blue-gray AGT-16 (as I guessed before).  213 giap was also disbanded in March 1947, before production of AGT-16 started .

HTH,
KL

Hi,
discussion about P-39 "100" and "44" was already at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg17516#msg17516 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg17516#msg17516)
Here is interesting note:
"...regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap.
...by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."

EDIT:
I have a fragment of the photo showing number "100", most probably belonging to P-39 "black 100" from 213 giap:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_100_02_zpsngg6ctpf.jpg)
There is visible dark outline around digits. I do not know whether outline is caused only by JPG compression fragments or it is real black outline around let's say red digits. There are known photos where red looks almost black.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
following photos I have found in VIF archive.

Hard to say if this is the same Oborin's plane, numbers 5 seem to have slightly different fonts:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob02_zpsoojf9sn0.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob04_zps6cqbfa6x.jpg)
Probably 2015 iad:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob03_zpsqdryuz3b.jpg)

Dark disc under the red star:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob05_zpsimdilwes.jpg)

Dark spinner, "10" has the same font as "5":
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob06_zpse4ysavso.jpg)

Regards,
  66misos


EDIT:
(https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Flieger/(131011025137)_dve_kobry.jpg)

Probably 104 giap:
(https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Zaika/(111101005314)_R-39_bn_32kopirovanie.jpg)

Hi Misos,
about the outline of n.100, I think it is real. Should it be a JPG artifact, there should be a similar light outline in the light grey area, but it's not visible on this photo.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/P-39_Ob05_zpsimdilwes.jpg)
any idea about this square on the tail?
Regards
Massimo

That is definitively outline...

It looks that Airacobra No "100" was flown by P.I. Chepinoga in late 1944 and early 1945, before he left 213 giap in April 1945. At that time "100" looked something like this:

(http://aviahobby.ru/publ/sovaces/color/LL/Chepinoga_P39Q.jpg)

M. Bykov, author of the profile writes in comment:

Истребитель Bell P-39Q Airacobra из состава 508 иап/213 гиап, на котором в конце 1944 - начале 1945 гг. летал майор П.И.Чепинога.
Источник: фото (Squadron-Signal и др. издания), воспоминания ветеранов

from  http://aviahobby.ru/publ/sovaces/color/M_Z/Chepinoga.html

Light gray or light blue Airacobra No "100" is probably the same plane that is on the widely publicized photo

(http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/ch/chepinoga2.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi Massimo,
It looks like repainted RAF tricolora, but AFAIK all British Airacobras had 20mm long-barel cannon in propeller spinner. And this Cobra has 30mm cannon in the tubulsr cover, so it hss to be former US plane. Plus according to some opinions at VIF there is serial number on the tail (I do not see it), e.g. feature of US Cobras.
But for sure it is not Oborin's Cobra "5" - "5" here has different font and position.
Regards,
     66misos

Hi Misos,
maybe it had the tail of another plane?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here are (I hope) the final versions of P-39 Airacobras from 212 giap:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/160306%20P-39%20212%20giap_Web_zpsdbirkkp4.jpg)

and one updated Cobra from 213 giap:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/160306%20P-39%20213%20giap_100_Web_zpsyqglq4eb.jpg)

Regarding "44" and "100" - there are several options for camouflage/protecting color and without new substantial info no final resolution. So I decided to keep original colors discussed priviously. I changed only color of the board number and divisional marking.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
looks fine. I wait for the updates to your page on P-39s.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,

Airacobras No "100" and "44" are for all purposes the same colour.
Both 212 giap and 213 giap were based at the same airfield between Aug 1945 and Mar 1947 (Stockerau, Austria), so planes share common features - both are painted in non-standard one colour scheme, both have outlined numbers...

IMHO, "100" looks more convincing when compared with the photo.  "44" should be lighter than on your profile.  Also, on photos, there is simply no such contrast between the nose and the rest of the plane.  If you change "44" to same colour as "100" you'll be fine, but don't call the colour AGT-16, because AGT-16 wasn't available at that time.

HTH,
KL 

Hi KL,
so here is bluegrey alternavive of P-39 "yellow 44":

(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-39_different%20Cobras/160307_P-39Q_%20no44_05%20Web_zpspgm83e67.jpg)

I have to say it does not look bad ;)
Regards,
    66misos

Hi Misos,
Yes, "44" looks good, you may consider it done.

If you want to make page about 212 giap Airacobras really outstanding (definitive as much at possible with the currently available info) I have 2 more suggestions  :-\

1.-  For those Airacobras with unknown serial number, instead of an empty yellow rectangle, use beginning of the serial which relates to the P-39Q sub-type and then for the rest of the number use ????
- No "5" should be a P-39Q-10 from the same batch as No "19" so its serial should be 22????
- No "34" and No "56" are both P-39Q-15 and their serials should be 42????

2.-  Comment (caption) should have as much information as possible: who, when, where, etc.  For No "44" it could be something like"

P-39Q-10, 212 giap, photographed after the war, sometime between summer 1945 and winter 1946/47 when regiment was based at the Stockerau airfield in Austria.
Aircraft is in non-standard one-coluor light blue-gray scheme

For Airacobras No "47" and "34" check my previous posts - I have posted exact airfields where photos where taken.  For both planes date when photos were taken can be narrowed down to 2 weeks.  This allows to connect planes to a specific operation and battlefield.

HTH,
KL

Hi KL,
thank you. in case when serial number is not known I rather make there rectangle. Proposed "generic" s/n look too much like real ones. I will put them with the note to the caption and with "x" instead of "0".
I am going to summarize info and make articles for mig3 pages.
Thanks all for help.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I just found Kozhevnikov's Cobra skin at warthunder http://live.warthunder.com/post/493534/en/ (http://live.warthunder.com/post/493534/en/)

(http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/bb/5310f8f6ff7c4455af32b93c70f5efd3506a81_mq/promoWinner.png)

Massimo, seems tant sovietwarplanes.com becomes quite popular :-)
I nice to see results of our discussions in 3D.
Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
that site of skins is very interesting, some of the images have an extreme level of realism.
Nice to see such good use of the works of Sovietwarplanes.
Regards
Massimo