Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: 66misos on March 03, 2016, 07:54:18 PM



Title: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: 66misos on March 03, 2016, 07:54:18 PM
Hi,
interesting photo of colorfull MiG-3 from VIF archive:

(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1185957)

regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 03, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
Hi Misos,
very nice.
I suppose that colors could be green, dark grey, light brown and white.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on April 10, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
Hi colleagues :)

This is a sample of not usual but particulary standart camo, for certain region. This color scheme is nothing but a schematic picture of rice field. Such camo is massively used in the Asian region - Manchjuria, China and the Soviet Far East. This particular plane was based at Primorsky region, at some places then I was born :). Real colors of this plane is almost like this:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/133056/62938661.13/0_ed1d0_b625ea39_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/971216)

The plane have inverted version of "rice" pattern, paints are AMT green, black and light gray(mb silver, but not confirmed yet), for 39/43 (the exact period of existence "rice" pattern for soviet AC is not known, due to a lack of good research). for 44 state at Far East, as I know, all type of camos was replaced gray-gray sheme with standart pattern.

This I-15bis is sample of direct version of "rice" pattern, as you can see it almost identical of japanese tank :)))) Because the plane have stars 1943 type, impossible to say what lightest paint is, light gray or light brown. For my opinion correct - light gray, because Far East regiments had supplies on the principle of "least", and new light brown paint could arrive with a big delay, and you know about 3 color db3, if they repaint planes, they repaint it by new standarts (all text is valid for mig-3 too).
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/131894/62938661.13/0_ed1cf_2cb37226_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/971215)

Plane course Far East based too.


Far East MBR2, inverted sheme:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/58321/62938661.13/0_ed1d1_396a8a9a_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/971217)


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 11, 2016, 09:48:57 PM
Hi Psy,
this is interesting. The style with 2 main colors plus a third one in thin lines, but colors seem varying.

Here is my guess:
MiG-3:
bands of dark green and sand, with white lines;
I-153:
bands of sand and dark green, with black lines;
MBR-2:
bands of dark green and black, with light grey lines.


Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 12, 2016, 05:38:40 AM
Hi,
these planes were photographed near Vladivostok in 1943:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/white54r.jpg)
They have a similar painting with white lines.
In my opinion, the MiG of the previous photo had its camouflage modified with white lines because of the snow still lying on the ground.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: KL on April 12, 2016, 08:11:08 AM
Hi Massimo,
MiG-3 No 54 is photographed at an airfield near Moscow in summer 1943. Either Klin or Vnukovo depending on a source...

check here:  http://airaces.narod.ru/all16/urvachev.htm

It's 34 iap PVO.  There are several MiG-3 photos on that page, on some more black lines.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: 66misos on April 12, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
Hi,
When speaking about light grey and sand colors in 1942 or early 1943, could you, please, be more specific about their codes (AMT-xx or A-xxm)? I did not find anything like that in the color tables at Mig3 pages.
Thanx.
   66misos


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 12, 2016, 02:25:15 PM
Hi,
Quote
MiG-3 No 54 is photographed at an airfield near Moscow in summer 1943. Either Klin or Vnukovo depending on a source...
check here:  http://airaces.narod.ru/all16/urvachev.htm
It's 34 iap PVO.  There are several MiG-3 photos on that page, on some more black lines.

Maslov's boook on MiG-3 says 34 IAP too.
I had a look again to my page, it contains these comments:
Quote
This aircraft is of 6th IAP of 7 IAD of the Pacific Fleet, photographed on Uglovoye airfield ( not too far from Vladivostock) on August 18, 1943.
The closer man is leytenant F. I. Gretchin, the political officer of the unit.
Unfortunately I don't remember where I found this, it was many years ago, but the comment above looks too detailed to be an invention.

Quote
When speaking about light grey and sand colors in 1942 or early 1943, could you, please, be more specific about their codes (AMT-xx or A-xxm)? I did not find anything like that in the color tables at Mig3 pages.

I simply don't know. I suppose that, if it is sand, it could be similar to AMT-1, but it could also be another thing.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: KL on April 13, 2016, 03:23:45 AM
another photo from the series:

(http://karopka.ru/upload/comments/a6f/smxg%2010%20fss%202018.jpg)

it is clear that officers are dressed in black Navy uniforms!  So, it is probably 7 iad VVS TOF. Hazanov, Medved and Maslov are wrong this time...

regards,
KL



Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 13, 2016, 06:51:19 AM
Hi,
interesting image.
The camouflage of the first plane (54) seems continuing on the landing gear doors too.
The color under his nose is different from the one of the second plane.
All the spinners are different, I wonder if there is a logic reason for this or if it was casual.
What is the source of the image?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 13, 2016, 02:32:14 PM
Hi,
I've examined better the image, and there is not camouflage on the landing gear door. It is a shadow projected from a foldable panel of the door itself, hit by sun rays tangentially.
The third plane has a wide red star with white outline on its tail.
The prop blades of the third and fourth plane look camouflaged.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on April 25, 2016, 11:54:51 AM

(http://karopka.ru/upload/comments/a6f/smxg%2010%20fss%202018.jpg)


It is TOF regiment, I have confirmation from my friend from Vladivostok. Moskow' & S'Peterborg guys have big tendensy define all history spin around to center Russia' region :) if dont give them descent, they soon describe Khalkhin Gol campaign  as the battle near Moscow  :)


upd :)

Migs is 39th IAP (Unashi airbase) TOF. Unashi - Golden Valley, it is Primorsky region.

I-15bis is 14 KORAE at the Uglovaya-Central airbase, it is Vladivostok  :)

And more :)

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/52461/62938661.13/0_ed4f8_e110f85c_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972024)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/133748/62938661.13/0_ed4f7_94fa1248_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972023)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/53680/62938661.13/0_ed4f6_ab6000f7_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972022)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/133056/62938661.13/0_ed4f5_7c069b59_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972021)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/53993/62938661.13/0_ed4f4_ba43587a_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972020)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/97268/62938661.13/0_ed4f3_8fb271ae_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972019)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/61020/62938661.13/0_ed4f2_920ca435_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972018)


(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/29408/62938661.13/0_ed4f1_85126c8c_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972017)




Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 25, 2016, 05:54:28 PM
Great photos, forthemost I never saw them before. Thank you for posting.
In the case of I-153 and I-16, it seems that the lighter color was brush painted over a sprayed black band.
I wonder if the colors are always the same. The MBR-2 could have water-like colors.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on April 25, 2016, 06:47:01 PM
Great photos, forthemost I never saw them before. Thank you for posting.
In the case of I-153 and I-16, it seems that the lighter color was brush painted over a sprayed black band.
I wonder if the colors are always the same. The MBR-2 could have water-like colors.
Regards
Massimo

Yeath :) the main value of the photos MiGs and I-16, that it's a solid proof that the rice pattern is not individual creative of mechanics, but a official Far East color scheme which has been used for painting the whole regiments.


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2016, 06:09:02 AM
Hi,
Quote
Yeath Smiley the main value of the photos MiGs and I-16, that it's a solid proof that the rice pattern is not individual creative of mechanics, but a official Far East color scheme which has been used for painting the whole regiments.
Indeed. 
Why is it called rice pattern?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Troy Smith on April 26, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Hi,

Why is it called rice pattern?
Regards
Massimo


Hi colleagues :)

This is a sample of not usual but particulary standart camo, for certain region. This color scheme is nothing but a schematic picture of rice field. Such camo is massively used in the Asian region - Manchjuria, China and the Soviet Far East. This particular plane was based at Primorsky region, at some places then I was born :). Real colors of this plane is almost like this:


(http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Thierry_Bornier_003-1024x576.jpg)

http://previews.123rf.com/images/javarman/javarman1310/javarman131000147/22927312-Rice-terraces-of-Yuanyang-Yunnan-China-Stock-Photo.jpg


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2016, 07:33:13 PM
Hi,
beautiful image indeed.
I see a lot of colors here, this makes more difficult to be sure about the colors of the planes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on April 27, 2016, 10:12:27 AM
Hi,
Quote
Yeath Smiley the main value of the photos MiGs and I-16, that it's a solid proof that the rice pattern is not individual creative of mechanics, but a official Far East color scheme which has been used for painting the whole regiments.
Indeed.  
Why is it called rice pattern?
Regards
Massimo

Name by type of terrain, where such camo should be used, it's not official, because official name unknown.

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/58717/62938661.13/0_ed513_e64b2300_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972051)(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/61747/62938661.13/0_ed512_ad7e7773_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972050)
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/57296/62938661.13/0_ed511_e815cd74_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972049)(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/120455/62938661.13/0_ed510_2edd3bac_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972048)

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/57985/62938661.13/0_ed516_a7fc9687_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972054)(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/47284/62938661.13/0_ed515_124df31b_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972053)

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/47284/62938661.13/0_ed514_1e51b4b5_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972052)(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/27200/62938661.13/0_ed517_ec976a9a_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972055)


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on April 27, 2016, 10:19:11 AM
Hi,
beautiful image indeed.
I see a lot of colors here, this makes more difficult to be sure about the colors of the planes.
Regards
Massimo

Modern photos more photoshopped then real, you know :) Real nature colors more "natural".

AC colors should be standart, from known factory pattern, other colors can't be, because it is simply not factory produced. And unauthorized mixing of paints as far as I know, was not allowed.

Here at Burche (Soviet expert in disguise, participated in the creation AC patterms 30th-40th.) is a little about the rules of construction of rice camouflage:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/26144/62938661.13/0_ed519_be159857_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972057)

Quote
In cases where the nature of the terrain does not allow for the introduction of camouflage stains quite different in brightness, and a danger of their merger at a distance smaller than it should be for tactical requirements, applicable border spots (Fig.81).
Two neighboring dark spots should be separated by a light border, light gray or light green, two adjacent bright spots must be separated by a dark - black or dark brown border.
Border width is taken in the range of 5-10 cm and is in direct proportion to the size of the shared spots, as well as the distance at which you want to save a break.
Then larger in size and richer color on the spot, and the more of viewing distance, the greater should be the width of the border.

As we know in real, light green and dark brown paints wasn't factory produced, thus borders were only two colors - light gray and black. Have big possibility, that light gray color on the respective planes, and at appropriate times could be replaced with silver paint.


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 29, 2016, 07:05:02 AM
Hi,
if I remember well, Burke wrote also that the best camouflaging colors were the dominant color of ground when seen from above, and the dominant color seen obliquely. This would leave to black only the role of thin outlines. Taking as likely that there has to be green AMT-4, I guess that the other color is AMT-1. Pity that it's too late to look for someone  still alive that saw the real planes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on May 01, 2016, 11:06:52 AM
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/61020/62938661.13/0_ed52f_91b24e8f_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/200075/view/972079)


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 01, 2016, 03:20:11 PM
Hi,
I don't think that this is fundamentally a black/green camouflage, not with the usual shades at least. The medium shade gives the same contrast to light blue that AMT-1 seen on the rear fuselage of Shturmoviks.
If the colors are the same of the other 'Siberian' photos (apart for the thin lines, white instead of black) the darker shade of the wide bands has to be lighter than black, utilized for the thin lines.  
The darker color of the camouflage appears lighter than the red outline of the stars, that is unlikely for a glossy black.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/white54r.jpg)

I think that the main difference between these MiG-3s is the use of white lines instead of black ones because of the snow on the ground; that is: what we see are a summer and a winter versions of the same camouflage.

It's interesting to see that, although the photo of the Po-2 is dated 1942, its red star has a white outline; so I wonder if these planes utilized white-re doutlined red stars before August/September 1943.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Psy06 on May 01, 2016, 04:10:49 PM
Hi, I don't think that this is fundamentally a black/green camouflage,

Agree, it is basically green 1940 paint sheme, because non standart dark spots. But we should not overly complicate, if not in fact good reason. I think that in this situation, no such.


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: 66misos on May 16, 2016, 06:14:14 PM
Hi,
I found nice profile by Kazakov Alex of the plane above:
(http://wio.ru/gal2ac/ris1/mig3.jpg)
A slightly different interpretation on the photo:
(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/61020/62938661.13/0_ed52f_91b24e8f_L.jpg)
regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: MiG-3 in non-standard camo
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 16, 2016, 10:06:23 PM
Hi Misos,
nuce drawing, thank you for sharing it.
Anyway, I don't think that a wide amount of black nearly without green is camouflaging on the grounds we see.
But... I see a medium shaded part without white border on the tail, over the stabilizer. Perhaps this interpretation is right, and just needs some more green.
Regards
Massimo