Sovietwarplanes

Hello everybody and thank you Massimo to set up my account for me to join. As the heading states, I am planing to build the ModelSvit Yakovlev Yak-1B white 6 from GC 3 Normandie-Niemen flown by Albert Durand from Mosalsk during April 1943.

Let me say first, my knowledge on Great Patriotic War Aviation is very limited, so a lot of things which are maybe common knowledge for you are new to me. But I did a bit of reading and I found the post from xan on a similar topic very informative. http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2100.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2100.0)

If I read this thread correctly, GC 3 Normandie-Niemen received 10 Yak-1 in January 1943 and flew the type until July 1943 when they converted to Yak-9.

And at least two Yak-1 had been decorated with a sharkmouth. The Aircraft flown by de la Poype which xan made a model off as white 30 and white 6 flown by Albert Durand.

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-02.jpg)

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-03.jpg)

The question I have, are this two pictures of the same aircraft and the scribbles on the nose are just not visible in the in-flight picture? And what is the opinion how these scribbles came about as I don't think it is the remnants of the white winter camouflage.

By the way, white 6 is also shown on this YouTube video taking off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KavFAXDQzSg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KavFAXDQzSg)

The build is for the upcoming Great Patriotic War Group Build on Britmodeller, but I may document my progress here as well if that is ok as I am surely will have many more questions when making the model.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.
Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,
I think that the photos are of the same plane, the other one has a very different sharkmouth.
In my idea, the strange pattern is not a residual of a winter camo, but a very rough attempt to simulate the skin of a fish. On the lower part of the sides I think to see a sort of dark rings, while on the upper part I think to see a pattern with black and light small dots on a base color.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo. I didn't think about this possibility, but it does make sens. Will be fun painting them.

The kit is still somewhere between the Ukraine and Australia, so I have to wait a bit longer until I can get started.

Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,
I'm very interested to see it finished.
Regards
Massimo

The kit with some additional goodies arrived finally from the Ukraine
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-04.jpg)

In addition to the kit, I will use following extra parts:
- Armory PE set
- Armory Resin Wheels
- Quickboost exhaust
- DMM decals

This will be a slow build as all the parts need to be extensively cleaned up. But surprisingly the fit is very good after the clean-up.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-12.jpg)
It is amazing how well the small parts are defined. And with the addition of some PE, it will look great I think.

But I also learned that PE parts can be worse than the plastic part they replace.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-11.jpg)
Armory PE compared to the kit part.

And on the original.
(http://scalemodels.ru/modules/photo/galerie/w_yak1_6.jpg)

It was also interesting to see that ModelSvit and Armory ask you to attach things wrongly.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-13.jpg)
The rudders are shown at the wrong location in the ModelSvit instruction and the rudder bedal are shown the wrong way round in the Armory instruction :o

At least when comparing to this picture. So I hope I attached them correctly.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/Yak-1-Cockpit-1.jpg)

But I am kind of stuck in building the cockpit and I wonder if a Yak-1 expert here can help me out.
The ModelSvit kit provides two control sticks (H6 and one with a ring grip). Which one is correct? All pictures I have seen of Yak-1 cockpits show the ring grip on the control stick, so I guess that is the one to go with.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-14.jpg)
Also, what does part E1 represent?

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/Yak-1-Cockpit-2-MA.jpg)
Is it the structure marked in red? Which I can't see on all the pictures.

And what is the devise fitted here marked in red?
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/Yak-1-Cockpit-3-MA.jpg)

It seems that it wasen't fitted to all aircraft as it can't be seen on this period picture.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/Yak-1-Cockpit-5.jpg)

In addition, am I correct in saying that the aircraft I am building was produced in early 1943 and had no landing light in the wing leading edge?

It would be great if someone can help with some answers, specially what part E1 is for.

Many thanks, Peter

Hi Peter,
I suppose that the ring control column was for early models of Yak-1, while the straight one was for late types. I suppose that all Yak-1b have to be 'late types', but I don't know for sure. If I don't miss, a similar modification was introduced on Lavochkins starting with the drop type canopy.
I don't know what is exactly piece E1, looks related to the gun. Perhaps a compressed air pipe.
the lever marked in red could be for the seat lifting in early versions. On Yak-1b, its hamndle looks different.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo for your reply. I did ask around a bit more regarding the control stick and apparently the stick change-over happened with Batch 158 to the pistol grip. Batch 111 was produced in December 1942, so I would think it is safe to say that a Yak-1b produced in early 1943 still had the ring grip stick. And yes, piece E1 is related to the gun to provide compressed air.

I got the cockpit nearly finished and painted.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-24.jpg)

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-25.jpg)

To get the rest of the cockpit together, I need the wings assembled, but I wanted to add a bit of detail in the wheel wells first.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-28.jpg)

This part can then go onto the wing.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-26.jpg)

I do have some issues with the seat and the harness. Armory has a harness for the Yak-1 which I think is wrong. Apparently the Yak-1 had a Sutton style harness which can be seen in the picture below.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-29.jpg)
The harness Armory provides I have only seen in older Soviet aircraft like the Rata.

In addition, I have seen several builds where a slot was added to the seat backrest for the harness to go through. The ModelSvit seat back doesn't have the slot and I wonder if it the harness goes through a slot or over the top of the seat back. Unfortunately I can't find any pictures showing this.

Any help with this is much appreciated.
Cheers, Peter

Finally the cockpit is done - well 99% done. Spent a bit of time re-modelling and adding extra detail. Attaching the seat was a bit a challenge too.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-30.jpg)

And now all is in place and weathered. I redone some of the wiring and added the pipes from the radiator to the engine
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-31.jpg)

This pipe seems to be the "hot" pipe and was insulated with some kind of cloth.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-32.jpg)

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-33.jpg)

And here together.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-34.jpg)

I attached the seat pan lower as it was way too high in the kit. I also ended up adding a slot for the harness as I found some drawings having it. But I am still not sure if it is correct that way.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-35.jpg)

As soon as the Eduard harness arrives I can close her up.

Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,

Nice work on the cockpit! Your grey looks very good. Were did you see there was a ''hot pipe'' in the cockpit? i missed that one in my research. I have noticed that there are some Yak-1 interior things were present in the Yak-1B cockpit. like the oxygen system. Is this correct?

Regards,

Remco

In early (high back or "razor back") Yak-1s, engine coolant piping ran through the wing fairing.  At the same time when fuselage back was lowered, wing fairing was made "tighter" (this change probably isn't noticeable in any model which represent both "early" and "late" Yak-1s).  This change meant that the piping had to be moved inside the cockpit.  Engine coolant piping was normally painted in green, section that was in the cockpit was insulated.

HTH,
KL

I would say that FAS was made of canvas, and thus can not be blue - rather khaki

Yep, just found the hot pipe on the photo's. It didn't noticed.

I think its made of hemp clothing material. And it has good isolation advantages. On to desk, and scratchbuild. I am going to build it with some thicker soldering wire, and put a tissue paper over it, glued with CA glue. Then paint it with Panzer Aces "hemp" color. Weathering is further done with a black and sepia filter (not a wash! The decoloration will be to dark...)

Regards,

Remco

Maybe asbestos insulation tape??  It's light beidge, almost white (it gets dirty quickly...)

(http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/2011/11/3/17/Asbestos_tape_634566165248945406_1.JPG)

(http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/asbestos/AsbestosPaperWrap5s.jpg)

Wow, I didn't expect so many posts after it was rather quiet in this thread.


Thanks Remco. Your build looks very nice too and having the side panels removed makes things so much more challenging.

The grey is A-14 from the Mr. Paint range manufactured in Slovakia. This paint airbrushes very nicely as it is lacquer, but is very tricky to paint by brush for touch ups.

Yes, the pipes can be seen in the cockpit pictures of the preserved Yak-1b at Saratov.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/Yak-1-Cockpit-1.jpg)

A few things I noticed when assembling the cockpit. The placement of the side panels is too low in the kit, specially if they are replaced by PE. I raised them by 1mm. Also the seat pan placement is too high. I attached it nearly at the bottom of the seat back. This I think makes things look correct proportionally. In addition, the Seat pan is to wide as there should be a substantial gap between the seat and the side panel with some leavers in between. Unfortunately there is basically no gap with the kit seat. I noticed this too late in this build, but I may try to correct this if I build another ModelSvit Yak-1.

I actually have very little knowledge on Russian aircraft, but I learned a lot during this build. I think it is nearly impossible to get the cockpit interior 100% correct as changes had been made so frequent during the production of the aircraft - like the fitment of the receiver RSI-4 (radio) which was not standard on all the aircraft. Was it fitted on this aircraft? No idea, but it looks good fitted, so in it went  ;D Same with the first aid kit.


Thank you KL for contributing this information. Good to know that the radiator pipes aren't visible in razorback Yak-1s. Painted the pipe on the right hand side green - any colour variation in the grey cockpit are a welcome visual addition.


What does FAS stand for?


Great that you can still add these pipes to your build. I used 1mm Evergreen rod on the right side and 1.2mm on the left. Looking at the cockpit picture above, I think only the left pipe is insulated (has to be  where the coolant flows from the engine to the radiator) which is why I used a thicker rod there.


That is what I assumed too and I am glad that the light beige I painted the pipe with is close to what it could have looked like. Of course it also could have been painted green, but I like the beige, giving another colour in the cockpit.

I still would appreciate some information regarding the harness used and if it was mounted through a slot in the seat back or over the seat back on the Yak-1b.

Please keep the information coming which I am sure will be of help to others building the ModelSvit kit.
Thanks to all, Peter

I can't find anything about the Yak-1, but there is some info about other Yaks:

Check http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_1117857.html#1117857

Early Yak-1

(http://www.amyat.narod.ru/foto/aviaconstruction/Jak-1_kreslo.gif)

Yak-1b drawings wrom Modelist-Konstruktor (representing Saratov museum Yak-1).  There is a slot on top view!

(http://modelist-konstruktor.com/img/7914/5.jpg)

1942 Yak-9 from Zadorozhniy museum:

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2015/04/1428222180_f14.jpg)

1944 Yak-3 from OKB Yakovlev museum (sold in USA, now back in Russia)

(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2015/04/1428221667_26.jpg)

Yak-17

(http://pics.livejournal.com/igor113/pic/00p520tc)

HTH,
KL

Here's an image which, IIRC, was originally created and posted on Scalemodels.ru by M. Golovanov; it shows a difference in the shape of the wing root fairing, Yak-1 (left) versus Yak-1b (right). If you look carefully, you can see the "hot pipe" running within the wing root fairing of the Yak-1, just as you say:

(https://s31.postimg.org/xq2cm05qj/wing_roots_Yak_1_vs_Yak_1b.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/k95e34vev/) (https://postimage.org/)

John

Thank you KL for the great information on the harnesses.

Do you know in which issue of Modelist-Konstruktor the Yak-1b drawings had been published?

Great information John, thank you for providing the pictures with drawings.

Cheers, Peter

Источник: "Моделист-Конструктор" 1975, №1

scans at http://hobbyport.ru/avia/yak_1.htm

Hello Peter,
sorry I didn't see the topic before....

well I have some pics of hte famous Durand plane.

Durand paint his plane after de la Poype. Both were inspirated not in Chenault's flying tigers , but in RAF 112th squadron

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/TR_000978_kittyhawk.jpg)

I have some other pic of the plane

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/07/19//16071909102018634314382455.jpg)
you know this one it's taken of the video.

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/07/19//16071909102418634314382458.jpg)
this one is taken at the same time than the first one you show.

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/07/19//16071909075518634314382453.jpg)
this one is quite interesting

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/07/19//16071909080118634314382454.jpg)
this last one is clear and show the noise.
I don't think the white marks are old winter camouflage but fish scale representation...

Xan

Thanks for posting these pictures Xan. By the way, I am finding your work in progress of your Yak-1b build at Master194.com very helpful in building this kit.

Yes, the nose of this plane is a bit tricky and I am still undecided how to do it. I am not sure if there is any white left at all from the winter camouflage. Now the question is, was the original camouflage on the front of the nose black or green?

If green, the fish skin simulation looks to be painted in black. But if the nose is black, it would have been much harder to paint the fish skin in the lighter colour.

I think this picture shows the contrast of the colours well.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-03.jpg)

I tend to think that the darker colour was added (painted on) to show the fish skin, but I believe that the front of the nose was in black on the original camouflage - so something doesn't add up  :(. Any other opinions on this?

Cheers, Peter

Hi Xan,



I agree that the shark mouth on Durand's Yak was painted after it had been painted on de la Poype's Yak.  :)

IMHO, on de la  Poype's Yak, the shark mouth was painted in mid-April and on Durand's yak, two weeks later, in first week of May.  If you watch the movie carefully, you will notice that it was shot on (at least!) two occasions:

- first part (group of pilots walking along dispersal, two pilots playing chess, alarm and two pilots starting engines of their planes) was filmed when there was still some snow on the ground so the Yak-1 was in winter camouflage
- second part (planes taking off, flying above the airfield, landing, etc.) was filmed later, when snow completely disappeared and planes were in black-green, "summer" camouflage

Two facts help to date when shark mouth was painted on Durand's Yak:

-Temporary winter camouflage was removed from "Normandie" Yaks at the end of April
-photo below (Durand, Lefevr and Mahe) was taken before May 07 when Mahe was shot down and captured

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-02.jpg)

It looks that both de la Poype's and Durand's plane had shark mouth painted for the movie.  It's interesting that Durnd's Yak appears in several photo sessions (all probably made in May 1943), but not after May 1943.  De la Poype's Yak is totally absent from photos taken after April 1943... Any idea why?  ???



IIRC Flying tigers as an inspiration were mentioned in posts related to your Yak-1 built.  I have also found Flying tigers mentioned in one Russian book; where is info about the RAF 112th squadron as inspiration coming from???

Cheers,
KL

Correction!
according to http://normandie-niemen.forumpro.fr/t41-camouflage-yak-1-lefevre-01-05-43

(http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/color2/photo_yak-1b_40.jpg)

Photo was taken on May 10, 1943.  No "6" was flown by A. Durand, No "29" by D. Beguin and No "14" by Lefevre.

No "29" was lost on May 14, 1943...

HTH,
KL 

According to RIA Novosti

(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_968.jpg)

photo was taken on May 21, 1943 by photo correspondent Sergey Loskutov

better copy

(http://cdn.tvc.ru/pictures/o/155/435.jpg)

HTH,
KL

Hi Konstantin, how are you?

I wanted to answer you it was wroten in the de la Poype 's memories.
I look et them and you were right, I was wrong

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/07/20//16072010595618634314385498.jpg)

it was the flying tigers, I don't know why I was convinced it was the 112sq...
Peter , sorry , hope you read this...

Xan

Thank you KL and Xan for the great information - very helpful. I was wondering too about the 112 Sqdn connection. But what was the connection to the Flying Tiger unit in China?

So the pictures are dated early May 1943 and with no white on the aircraft. That is a start :) What was the camouflage on the nose before the sharkmouth was added? Black? and if so, was it black on both sides?

But I still have a model to make, and I finally finished the cockpit. It was a bit of a journey to get there and with the information received here, I think the result is acceptable.

The fuselage came together with a bit persuasion.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-36.jpg)

I fitted a new Eduard Russian steel harness which has harnesses for LaGGs and Yaks. But something just didn't look right

Well it seems Eduard is not only having scale issues when making kits, but also with PE parts
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-37.jpg)
Left Eduard, right GoNzA - what did I say about scale, about 1/3rd too small so close to 1/72. And yes, I checked if they sent me the wrong scale PE, but it is the 1/48 set.

here the comparison on the seat.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-38.jpg)
What a difference. Sorry I had already removed the back harness before I took the picture. Now the GoNzA harness is maybe a tad over scale. But as the ModelSvit seat is a bit too large, they work well together.

I used Gunze Mr. Metal Primer for the first time (applied by brush) on the GoNzA harness and I am impressed - no paint pealed off when handling, folding and attaching the harness - a rather tricky venture in the closed cockpit.

Finally the Fuselage and wing with the cockpit floor was ready to go together
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-39.jpg)

As with the fuselage assembly, this needed a bit of pressure to make it fit.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-40.jpg)

And here the finished cockpit.
(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-41.jpg)
I am glad I added the coolant pipes as they can be seen rather well.

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-42.jpg)

(http://www.skyline-apa.com.au/Models/Russia/VVS-Yak-1-43.jpg)

I will fit the gunsight with mounting bar later in the build when attaching all the other small parts.

If I build this kit again, I would sand down the seat pan a bit to make it smaller and reducing the with of the edge, which does look too wide.

Thanks for watching.
Cheers, Peter

Hi Xan,  :)

good to see the source!
"Flying Tigers" make Normandie-Niemen history more colourfull!  It is interesting that, at least some, French airmen identified themselves with a group of adventurers fighting in a far away country.
By spring 1943, when Marcelin painted first shark mouth on de la Poype's Yak-1, "Flying Tigers" had became a legend.  They (pilots and their planes) were portrayed in news, in magazines, in comics. A popular movie "Flying Tigers" with John Wayne in lead role was released in autumn 1942. French airmen had a plenty of opportunities to see P-40s with shark mouth painted on their engine cowlings...

These are some of the photos from March 30, 1942 Life magazine http://www.cbi-theater.com/flyingtigers/flying_tigers.html

(http://www.cbi-theater.com/flyingtigers/p1b.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/38/f1/4738f192d07e7581fd69bf0acf18061d.jpg)

clips from "Flying Tigers" movie:

(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/11/97/59/03/duke_a61.jpg)

(http://aerotoons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/group_p_40s.jpg)


and how they really looked...

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d5/c0/0b/d5c00b58f3b4139d63d92ac0ba8d5840.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/72/09/e1/7209e15d31372adccbc7add685d187a3.jpg)

(http://api.ning.com/files/gSeRnty1XqTV5246uJVXLp1pzS11omKmEUHFyVZSJ1PsEDUaAYYezvngkI1BHDKvJMkXGGrv58smizwPIBoqtm9dJDhKeBY5/FlyingTigersLogo.jpg?width=640&height=430)

HTH,
KL

yes ,
and before integrate the normandie fighter group, de la Poype was a free french in the RAF in great britain until agust of 1942 (he was the wingman of Paddy Finuicane in the 602th squadron), so he could easily have eard about the flying tigers...

Xan

Durand's Yak was probably one of the original 10 planes received in Ivanovo training center.  Those planes were made in December 1942 and they were most likely camouflaged in same black-green pattern as old Yak-1s

(http://coollib.com/i/74/308774/pic_61.jpg)

(http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/color/photo_yak-1_07-5.jpg)

(http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/color/photo_yak-1_07-4.jpg)

Most likely, as soon as the white temporary paint had been washed away, plane was partially repainted mostly in green (and possibly some black?).  This old Yak-1 made in autumn 1942 (note straight oil cooler intake) shows how repainting was done:

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/0_27488_291b76ec_orig.80hkzur9bfgg08wsk4cck4g84.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

(http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/0_27489_d0672d8d_orig.7jn5xhtixv48c4o0s48wgwccs.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th.jpeg)

Interesting to read that the Flying Tigers where the inspiration for the sharkmouth.


Thank you KL for your explanation. I am undecided how the fish skin was painted. To me it looks the skin was painted in the darker colour, but if the nose was black to start with, that is rather unlikely. But maybe the nose was re-painted in green when removing the white winter camouflage in preparation for the sharkmouth and fish skin.

I am currently finishing off the fuselage, and was looking for some pictures showing the gun opening above the pictures without success. The only pictures I found have been from early two guns Yak-1, but I believe the way it looks on the Yak-1b is different.

Does anyone know of a picture showing this part of the fuselage with the gun in place?

Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,
I found a nice photo in factory on Yak-1 of S. Kuznesov (or a similar name), pag.32, but I have difficulty with my scanner.
The slot is oval both on its front and rear, and made with a separate moulded sheet. The gun hole has an oblique cut.
It looks similar to that of Yak-3 as seen here http://scalemodels.ru/modules/photo/viewcat.php?id=11650&cid=343&min=12&orderby=dateA&show=12 (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/photo/viewcat.php?id=11650&cid=343&min=12&orderby=dateA&show=12) or other Yak fighters of 1943/44.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks Massimo. I am actually not after the slot shape as such, but how the gun is showing in the slot. How far is it extruding and how does it look. I believe there is some kind of tube and not the actual gun itself.

Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,
on MiG-3s, there is a small piece of pipe with an oblique cut.
I think you could extend your researches to other types of Yak.
On the photo, I see a black oval hole, inclined of about 30? with the horizon; I suppose that the gun and the tune have still to be installed.
Now I see that the same photo can be found at pag 17 of  of Yakovlev's piston-engined fighters, Gordon and Khazanov, red star vol.5.
On a photo of the engine of a Yak-9T, I see that the barrel of the UBS enters in a tubular manifold about 1/2 meter long. that protrudes (on its upper side) into the slot for  about 1/8, or more, of the lenght of the whole slot; I suppose that it should end oblique, but the photo from above-rear doesn't show the angle of cut, I suppose around 20?.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Peter & Massimo,

There was a pipe in font of the machine gun. Its purpose was to collect and evacuate machine gun gasses.  On early Yak-1s armed with ShKAS mgs, gasses were vented from the middle of the pipe, so there was a distinctive oval opening above the exhaust pipes.  End of the pipe was cut at close to 90 deg (approx 80 deg) and it did protrude from the cowling.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/58/83/13/5883135451b5873803d1833655c5c0a9.jpg)

on Yak-1b, armed with UBS, end of the pipe was feared and "sealed".  This was part of "aerodynamics improvement program".  In the Russian book "Yak-1 nash luchshiy isterbitel' 1941 goda" by S. Kuznetsov on page 79 there is a photo of the modified opening.  In the "Perviy Yak" book by the same author, there is a Yak-1b section; gas collector pipe is clearly drawn - it end is cut at approx 45 deg... Oval vent above the exhausts was also eliminated on Yak-1b as part of the same program...

Most likely, on series Yak-1b, UBS opening was the same as on Yak-3:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/Yak-3SantaMonicaphoto1.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/ARC%20forum/Yak-3SantaMonicaphoto2.jpg)

How I understand this, on Yak-1b gas collector pipe did NOT protrude from the cowling...

HTH,
KL
 

Hi Konstantin,
the gas tube was solidal to the machine gun. The plane of Bourget could have its UBS removed, so the tube is not visible. If so, it will be difficult to find this detail on museum planes if they were deprived of the armament.
On photos of the building line, I can't see the tube but the plane could be not yet armed.
I see the tube clearly on a photo of Yak-1M Moskit.
Perhaps there is a manual of the plane availabe somewhere.
Regards
Massimo

Thank you Massimo and KL. Yes I found lots of pictures how it looks on early (razorback) Yak-1s, but nothing on Yak-1b until this evening.

This picture of the preserved Yak-1b does show the pipe - and it does extrude a little an has an angle on the ending as Massimo said.
(http://karopka.ru/bitrix/components/bitrix/forum.interface/show_file.php?fid=50784)
So the actual gun is not showing - I guess you will see the barrel if you look straight into the tube.

By the way, what does UBS mean?

Cheers, Peter

Hi Peter,
thnks for the photo, but honestly I can't see the gas tube protruding.  


Massimo said that the tube protrudes into the slot for  about 1/8, or more, of the length of the whole slot -  approx 10 cm or more.  Massimo also guessed that the tube was cut at an acute angle, 20 deg; where do you see that??


Since we don't have a clear photo of Yak-1b UBS slots, the most important piece of information is its description in words! Check this link  http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak1b.html
there is a list of modifications included in Yak-1b.  Modification no 7. deals with UBS gas tube end:

7. Установлен обтекатель входного отверстия кожухов пулеметов и заделаны патрубки для отвода пороховых газов.

Translation is tricky, hope you will understand:  
Installed fairing for the intake openings of the machine gun shrouds and covered small tubes for gunpowder gasses removal

Basically all this means that protruding gas collector tubes created drag so the shape of the engine cowling (machine gun "slot") was modified and made more streamlined...

check this movie to see how they looked on early Yak-3s:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMeubztfEno

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IMeubztfEno/hqdefault.jpg)

at 7:27 you will see what is behind workers elbow...  ;)

Regards,
KL

PS: UBS stands for Универсальный Березина синхронный = Universal Berezin Synchronized.  Berezin is machine gun designer's name.  

I have checked the link you provided and there is the photo that shows "mg slot" and "gas collector tube" in all their glory:

(http://karopka.ru/bitrix/components/bitrix/forum.interface/show_file.php?fid=50794)

Yes, on photos above the tube is protruding... still because this plane is a museum exhibit with guns removed, it is possible that tube isn't installed properly.  IMHO, at least it should be rotated to look like the tube drawn in Yak-1b section in Kuznetsov's book.

Regards,
KL

How could I not see the picture showing the tube so clearly! But I think you are correct in saying that the tube shouldn't protrude into the slot as it doesn't make any sens from a design (and aerodynamic) point of view.

I think the tube in the museum aircraft is indeed not properly installed. Also the angle of the tube opening does match the slope of the slot if not protruding which would match the video image you provided the link for - and great to see how these aircraft had been built.

Maybe the drawing you mentioned (and I have also seen it in a Polish publication) is based on this museum aircraft.

So I will have the opening flush, but sloped at around 45 degree which isn't the case with the ModelSvit kit.

Thank you KL for taking the time to investigate this and providing all this valuable information.

Cheers, Peter

Hi,
of course it is possible that the tube wasn't reinstalled properly, but it looks visible on other photos of other Yaks so you can't be sure.
The rotation of the oblique cut is rational, because the most shortened part is closer to the cowling surface seen in trasversal section,  the point that is closer to the air flow. So, I suggest to investigate more before deciding that the museum exhibit is not representative.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I had a look at this:


At 20:30, we see both Yak-1s and Yak-3s on the same line.  But it looks a production line, not a maintenance depot. What strange!

Regards
Massimo

Yes of course there is the possibility that the tube protruded, but unfortunately I can't find a picture of a Yak-1b showing it.

But why would the tube protrude? What was the need for that? Looks like I just have to make an educated guess.

Cheers, Peter

Why is it strange?  The movie describes conveyor production line at Sararatov Factory 292, Yak-1 and Yak-3 main producer.  Conveyor production started in Saratov in March 1944, much later than in other main NKAP factories.  Yak-3 production started in spring 1944 and last Yak-1b left conveyor in July 1944 - so the movie was filmed in spring 1944 when both new Yak-3s and old Yak-1s were made at the same time.

Note that the Yak-3s in the movie are armed with one UBS machine gun only.  Initial 197 Yak-3s (series 1 to 12) were armed with one UBS (same as Yak-1b) - this confirms that the movie was filmed at the beginning of Yak-3 production.     

Regards,
KL

Hi,
I had a look to the monografie loctnicze n.46 and to skrzydla 2/91, them both have drawings with the tune protruding.  On the other hand, I have the impression that it is not always visible on photos. Probably the tube could be installed in different ways, and protrude and be rotated or not.
Probably there was a factory standard, that could have been changed during maintenance due to an approximative reinstallation.

It would be good to know if the protrusion of the tube had some function.


Interesting.

Regards
Massimo

My guess is that its purpose was to prevent gunpowder gasses entering engine compartment and cockpit...

I have read again about Yak-1 development and its sub-types and realized that the photo of that fairing and modification I had mentioned refer to a test airframe No 0868.  Some of the modifications were implemented on series planes, others not... This prototype was armed with ShKAS machine guns anyways...

Yak-1b preserved in Saratov museum is representative for early Yak-1b, similar to those Yak-1s flown by Normandie Squadron. So protruding tube cut at angle is almost certainly what was on Yak-1s flown by the French pilots.

HTH,
KL
 

Yes it is.  the 06-118  piloted by Durand arrived in Ivanovo the 3rd of march 1943. 16 planes (new planes) arrived in Ivanovo between the 27 of january and 25th of March.
sorry to return to an hold discussion...

Xan

Hi,
the manifold could be to prevent the engine's heat from below to cause warping of the barrel.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Xan,
do you have serial numbers for other "Normandie" squadron Yak-1s? if we know the series it we can estimate when each plane was made.

-Lowered back and round-view canopy were introduced with 94th series in late September 1942. During the 4th quarter, Saratov Zavod 292 produced (more or less...) steady 300 planes per month in 6 series, 50 planes each.

-Improvements were introduced gradually, so the definitive Yak-1b appeared only in December 1942 with 110th series.

-In 1st quarter of 1943, Zavod 292 produced about 250 planes per month (i.e. 5 series of 50 planes per month).

Consequently, Durand's Yak (6th plane of 118th series) was made in late January 1943.  It was definitively camouflaged in temporary winter white MK-7 in Saratov factory.

HTH,
KL

this is a part of Marc Chassard work .
don't take care of the AII and AMT painting suposiiton at this time he worked with pilawskii who was in those time the only VVS specialist known in France.
All his work his very reliable. He wrote a paper about the NN first campaign.
I can give the PDF for those who can read in french

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/08/02//16080211521218634314407882.jpg)

Xan

Thank you very much Xan!  This is really valuable information.

It looks that almost all of the Yaks in this list were new at the time when they arrived to NN.  They arrived only 1-1.5 months after they left production line at Zavod 292 in Saratov.

It's interesting that there were 3 airplanes with factory number "33".  One was renumbered to "13", another became "30" while plane flown by Castelain remained with its original number "33"


(http://smolbattle.ru/data/attachments/238/238538-d5919056702e768a68569ad6b982eeea.jpg)

(http://smolbattle.ru/data/attachments/238/238537-e26129f584e02b4dae71079b549059a7.jpg)

(http://avia.pro/sites/default/files/pictures/img538.jpg)

(http://bisonstore.ru/thumb/hVLNirY05VKxEQWCvrNTnA/600r-/606951/image_727.jpg)

This Yak was the 33rd plane of 110th series, the last series with old straight oil cooler intake and pointed spinner...

Regards,
KL
  

the third one with the number 33

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/08/04//16080412040718634314409604.jpg)

I have this one too...

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/08/04//16080412041018634314409605.jpg)

Xan

Wow, a lot has happened in this thread when I was busy putting glue and filler to plastic  :o

As always some great information which is much appreciated as my knowledge on the subject is very limited which is the reason I can't really contribute much to the discussion.


That does make sense as the Yak-1 had no fire-wall and so the gases (I assume) could enter the cockpit freely. But it doesent explain why the pipe did extrude and wasn't flush  :'(


Now that I added a flush pipe to my model, you tell me that it should be as on the Saratov museum aircraft  :-\

Fortunately not too late to change it, but a bit more callenging as I have now the part with the gun opening attached to the fuselage. Also had to order some larger brass tubes as 1mm (the largest size I have) looked too small.


Maybe, but how about the canon placed between the cylinder blocks?


Thank you Xan for providing this list. I am surprised to see that the aircraft supplied to the "Normandie" squadron came from so many different batches (series) even when delivered at the same time and some aircraft from earlier batches had been delivered later. I would appreciate a copy of the PDF, even though my French is a bit rusty.


Great to know that 06 was from batch 118 and was delivered with temporary winter white in place. But am I correct in saying that it was painted in the black / green camouflage before the white winter white was applied?

One of the remaining puzzles I have to work out is how the fish skin effect was painted onto the nose.
(http://cdn.tvc.ru/pictures/o/155/435.jpg)

After removing the white winter camouflage, the nose should have been in black which would meent that the lighter colour (green) was painted on to create the skin effect.

But to my eye, it loos that the darker colour (black) was used to paint the skin effect, which would mean that the nose had to be painted in the lighter colour (green).

Was there some repainting done when the temporary white was removed and the nose could have been painted green instead of black?

In addition, what was the colour of the spinner? I would think white as yellow was rather unlikely as it was a colour used widely on Luftwaffe aircraft.

Any opinions and suggestion would be much appreciated.
Cheers, Peter

Hi,
the heat from the cylinders reached this barrel in symmetrical way and caused not warping. The barrels of the UBS were exposed to heat from below and to cold air flow on the top so they could warp.
Regards
Massimo

Fair point Massimo. What is your view how the fish skin was painted on the nose?

Cheers, Peter

this tube didn't have anything to do with the thermal protection of the gun. It's name газоотводная труба explains its purpose - to collect and vent out (discharge, eliminate) gunpowder gasses.  The tube was installed in front of the machine gun barrel (not around the barrel) so that the gun fired through the tube.

There were 3 such tubes on MiG-3

(http://alternathistory.com/files/users/user459/474.jpg)

2 ShKAS mgs are removed, their gas tubes are still in place.   

Hi Peter,


Sorry, Yak-1 development was quite convoluted, you have to read the hole story to understand it (and I didn't...)


Correct, regardless of the season planes were finished in permanent nitro-cellulose paints (green AMT-4 and black AMT-6).  During the winter on top of the camouflage paints, washable white MK-7 was applied.  This paint was based on kaseine (milk protein) and it was washed with hot/lukewarm water at the end of winter. "Normandie" squadron washed their Yak-1s at the end of April 1943.


Yes, it looks that the black nose had been repainted in green and then the fish scales were painted with black paint.


IMHO, spinner was glossy white

HTH,
KL  

Great photo, white border around the star is interesting and probably unique to this plane.

Do you have any photos of No "1"?  That plane (105th series) also had old straight oil cooler air intake and pointed spinner.

Regards,
KL

No I haven't. This plane was broken very soon in Ivanovo.
Xan

Hi,
Interesting, the rear part looks closed apart for the hole of the barrel.
Regards
Massimo

I came across this picture in my quest for pictures of the gas tube extruding which I haven't seen before.

(http://ram-home.com/ram-old/yak-9t-gor1p144-1.jpg)
It is a 12.7mm UBS mounted to a Yak-9T which is maybe similar as it was mounted in the Yak-1b.

Cheers, Peter

In English language literature, "gazootvodnaya truba" is called BLAST TUBE

at https://www.google.com/patents/US2271700 there is a 1942 US patent for the "machine gun blast tube". Its purpose is described as:

is to provide means for shielding or screening ,the interior of the wing .or other hollow body for accommodating a gun, from air pressure and gases around the barrel of the gun

Blast tubes on Me-109F

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f170/KosachevSergey/Bf-109F-2/00120.jpg)

HTH,
KL