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Print Page - Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Prewar types during the GPW => Topic started by: marluc on June 26, 2016, 12:26:41 AM



Title: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: marluc on June 26, 2016, 12:26:41 AM
Hello:

Regarding this well known picture:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/polikarpov/I-16/i-16fconskies.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/marluc_foto/media/polikarpov/I-16/i-16fconskies.jpg.html)

This I-16 is always marked as Type 10 in books and profiles,such as this one:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/polikarpov/I-16/1_48_zpsgacfo9jt.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/marluc_foto/media/polikarpov/I-16/1_48_zpsgacfo9jt.jpg.html)

The thing is that in the photo above,there is no remarkable feature to accurately identify it as Type 10. Looking closely at the propeler blade,it looks wider than the one fitted to the Type 10s. And the red star painted on the fixed portion of the tail resemble the ones of the overhauled I-16s of 1942,shown by KL in another thread. Could this I-16 be one of the overhauled planes?
Any comment will be very appreciated,thanks in advance. Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 26, 2016, 10:02:54 AM
Hi Martin,
the plane is shown on Squadron Signal n.162 too, always described as type 10. I think that this identification is due to the apparent lack of an air intake on the top of the frontal plate. It can't be a 17 because of the lack of the prominent wing guns.
Another type 10 with ski gear (and the arrangement of the landing gear well) is visible at pag.28 of the same booklet.
Differently from the profile shown here, the plane of the photo hasn't doors on the landing gear leg.
The size of the stars doesn't mean anything particular, they were all painted on after the war outbreak.
The plane is often depicted as having green upper part of wings and tail, but probably it is an illusion due to the light coming low on the horizon.
The upper and front panels of the cowling are black probably because they came from another plane (as the rudder), not because of scratch of the paint. The lower side panel looks white.
I doubt that there was a star on the fuselage, at least in the position shown on the profile, because it should be visible on the photo. If it was, it should be moved forward. There is a small dark triangle visible on your photo in a gap between the men that could give the idea of the lower tip of a star. It looks a bit too thin, could be another thing.
When compared to the photo of overhauled 6 in the depot, we see that this plane had a wide star not only on the tail but on the fuselage too, but the photo of the plane with skis excludes a so wide star could be hidden by the men.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: marluc on June 26, 2016, 02:46:02 PM
I think that this identification is due to the apparent lack of an air intake on the top of the frontal plate.  the profile, because it should be visible on the photo.
Thanks Massimo,I didn?t noticed this important detail,now I can confirm it?s a Type 10.
Regarding the paint scheme,I agree with the wings  and tail horizontal surfaces not being green,are they just white,another shade of white or aluminum paint? The cowling could be a replacement painted in green instead of black. And,if theres is a star on the fuselage side,it should be as small as the one on the replacement rudder.
Your comments are very appreciated and helpful,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on June 28, 2016, 05:25:26 AM
Hi Martin,
it looks that the better quality version of this photo is available from "Rosiya segodn'a" agency at http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22%5Cu041d%5Cu0438%5Cu043a%5Cu043e%5Cu043b%5Cu0430%5Cu0439+%5Cu041d%5Cu043e%5Cu0432%5Cu0430%5Cu043a%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%22%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/

(http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_812629.jpg)

This agency also provides some information about the photo:

- photo was taken by photo correspondent Nikolay Novak
- this I-16 and its pilots fought at the Kalinin Front

This photo was published in Russian magazine not long time ago and the caption said the photo was taken during the Battle for Moscow in winter 1941/42.  This complies with the Kalinin Front info from above (Kalinin Front was north-east of Moscow).

Judging by its appearance, this I-16 definitively fits into the "overhauled planes" story:  in autumn/winter 1941 at the time when large part of aviation industry had to be evacuated to east, number of newly made planes significantly dropped.  It was realized that these low numbers could be compensated by overhauling damaged planes, old planes from storage even planes that were given to sport clubs (some R-5s and U-2s).  These overhauled planes played important role during the period necessary for evacuated factories to start normal production.

IMHO, this I-16 colours are:
- Fuselage top is silver.  In this case silver was applied over original green as winter camouflage
- Fuselage gun covers behind engine cowling are glossy white
- Engine cowling is green. All Type 10 planes had green painted cowlings in factory.
- propeller is black
- fuselage underside is light blue
- wings and horizontal stabilizer are probably white with underlying green still visible...
- many repair patches on the fuselage are same colour as wings (?)

Markings:
- There is a single digit number under the cockpit door. Lower part of this number is visible between pilots 3 and 4, it could be number "3" or "5"
- Large red stars were standard at that time. Rudder star is nonstandard size, rudder as its location is unusual.
- lack of fuselage star is nonstandard

HTH,
KL      


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 28, 2016, 12:32:47 PM
Yes, it seems that there is a number visible between the men,  At a second look, what seemed a patch on the rear fuselage could be the top part of a second digit. So, the plane could be numbered 35 or 55, without any star on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on June 29, 2016, 03:02:43 AM
On a second look, this would be a very unusual font stile, number would be quite large and hard to fit behind all those people...

A small triangle, also under the door and in front of the pilot no 4, could be the only visible part of the fuselage star... Since it is almost completely covered by pilots no 4 and 5, this star has to be small, smaller than rudder star.

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 29, 2016, 10:12:22 AM
Hi,
I've made some simulations.

Here is the hypothyzed number... but one has to say that there are many other patches on the fuselage.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16ipo1.jpg)

Here is the biggest red star that can be hidden on the base of the small triangle visible between the men. Looks more convincing.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16ipo2.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on June 30, 2016, 12:39:15 AM
Hi Massimo,
interesting pictures.

I agree, star looks much more convincing.
I also think now that the rectangle between the pilots has to be a patch because it looks the same as other fuselage patches... The only difference is that this rectangle is oriented parallel to the wing root trailing edge.

The question from the beginning of the thread was "which Type?".  It is usually hard or impossible to use Type designation for overhauled planes because they were usually put together from parts that were available at the moment.  So, this I-16 may have had Type 24 fuselage, M-25 engine and Type 5 wings.  It should be noted that the "Type" as seen in modern literature, has been used by Zavod 21 only and refers only to planes made by Zavod 21. For VVS, its pilots and mechanics, this was simply "I-16 M-25"

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 30, 2016, 01:50:04 PM
Hi Konstantin,
of course, the plane could be an hybrid. Certainly the rudder is from another plane, and I don't know about the fuselage. But the wings of type 5 have the ailerons extending up to the fuselage, and this is not the case. I think that all we see on the photo is compatible with what is commonly intended as type 10.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: marluc on June 30, 2016, 10:33:03 PM
Hiello.

Gentlemen,thanks for your comments. .
KL,that?s a picture of better quality,and the useful information gives this I-16 a time and a place.
Massimo,fuselage star looks convincing to me too.
Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver
Could be an option?
Greetings.

Martin 


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 01, 2016, 06:30:24 AM

Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver


Hi Martin,

IMHO, it's the other way around;
- fuselage upper surfaces (with 99% certainty) are silver
- Fuselage underside light blue
- Wings and horizontal tail-planes, most likely semi-transparent white over standard olive green

This I-16 seems to be one of those planes which were overpainted with "permanent" white or silver paint instead of being overpainted with temporary (washable) white MK-7.

Regards,
KL   


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: JP on July 03, 2016, 09:36:51 PM
My .02 in whatever currency you use:

Agree with KL.  Good catch on the small fuselage star.  I think with some confidence the dark rectangle on the spine is a patch and not a second digit based on the way it terminates at the forward part.  May be right on the lower patch as well.  If only they'd trained crew not to stand in front of the planes in that way!  :)


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: 66misos on July 04, 2016, 09:45:53 AM
Hi,
here are my 0,02 Euro to discussion ;)
- there are sharp shadows of the pilots on the ground - it is bright sunny day,
- the cone at the very end of the fuselage just bellow rudder has the darker color than fuselage, same like vertical and horizontal stabilizer,
- note the demarcation area (I intentionally do not say "line") between fuselage color and stabilizers color on the root of the tail and horizontal stabilizer - it is quite blurry and shaky, it looks like typical soviet work with the brush,
- the color on the tail, horiz. stabilizers and upper wings is too homogenous, it does not look like semi-transparent white over standard olive green. It looks like thick enough non-transparent layer of the color without strong reflections on the direct sun - some light grey?
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/winter/li24027.jpg)
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/winter/mig3a.jpg)
Note the white on the rudder - again it does not look hmogenous:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/la-5-17.jpg)

- metal plates in front of the wind shield (gun covers?) are also darker than fuselage, similar/same like tail,
- color of the patches - green or yellow/beige fabric?

White fuselage:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/winter/mig3vnukovo.jpg)

Silver fuselage:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/DC-3%20or%20Li-2/7_zpsab6cb81a.jpg)
(http://www.polarpost.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=7756)

Silver (?) Su-2 in the background:
(http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/su-2trio.jpg)

Silver or white Cobras?
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/P-400%20winter/Pict01_zpsd50fa195.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: barneybolac on July 06, 2016, 08:59:08 AM
Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 06, 2016, 09:41:52 PM
Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?

No, only "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-42"

Yak-7 below was also photographed at Kalinin Front in February 1942:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM01-6/10-1.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3706/photoarch.4d/0_16d7f_b149b51b_L)

Same for these LaGG-3 and MiG-3s, "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-1942":

(http://coollib.com/i/74/263274/pic_31.jpg)

(http://warspot-asset.s3.amazonaws.com/articles/pictures/000/002/651/content/003.jpg)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM01-6/4-3.jpg)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV11-2/16-2.jpg)


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 09, 2016, 11:07:48 PM
Photo from Maslov's book that may be somewhat related to the "Polikarpov I-16 with skis" from the begging of this thread

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-16%20Kaluga%20remont%201942_zpsn3acmkdf.jpg)

Caption readss something like "Repairs of damaged I-16s at Kaluga overhaul base in 1942"

Kaluga is only 150km from  Moscow, it was winter (workers are dressed for winter) both I-16 are on skis.

HTH,
KL


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 10, 2016, 07:01:26 AM
Interesting image. Size and position of the stars isn't exactly the same, but they could be related. I wonder if anyone could recognize the type, maybe from the engine of the second plane.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: barneybolac on July 10, 2016, 10:08:14 PM
Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?

No, only "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-42"

Yak-7 below was also photographed at Kalinin Front in February 1942:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM01-6/10-1.jpg)

(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3706/photoarch.4d/0_16d7f_b149b51b_L)

Same for these LaGG-3 and MiG-3s, "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-1942":

(http://coollib.com/i/74/263274/pic_31.jpg)

(http://warspot-asset.s3.amazonaws.com/articles/pictures/000/002/651/content/003.jpg)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AM/AM01-6/4-3.jpg)

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV11-2/16-2.jpg)

Slightly confused by the answer. Sorry.
Are you saying that the units were unknown or they were collectively known as the Kalinin Front air force for example?

Also looking at the link you provided for the photo & using Google translation from the image it lists some interesting text.

http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22history%22%3A%7B%22category%22%3A%22wars%22%2C%22period%22%3A%221980%22%7D%7D/


Великая Отечественная война. 1942. Калининский фронт. 31-я армия. Летчики Н-ского полка перед вылетом на задание. = The Great Patriotic War. 1942. Kalinin Front. 31st Army. Pilots N-sky regiment before leaving for the job.

What would the N-sky regiment be? Plus the 31st Army?   


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 10, 2016, 10:30:33 PM
N-sky sounds similar to Nevsky. 31 army was an huge ensemble of units, including ground units and fighting on that front. Perhaps one can find some list of fighters regiments on that front.


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: barneybolac on July 11, 2016, 06:51:35 AM
N-sky sounds similar to Nevsky. 31 army was an huge ensemble of units, including ground units and fighting on that front. Perhaps one can find some list of fighters regiments on that front.

Some Wikapedia information listing some useful stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinin_Front

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Air_Army


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 11, 2016, 09:41:15 PM
Interesting image. Size and position of the stars isn't exactly the same, but they could be related.

I don't think that exact location of fuselage star is relevant.  Size could be somewhat more relevant (at least it shows weather those who painted it followed official orders).  IMHO, there wasn't a combination of star location and size that would be specific to each maintenance shop or overhaul depot, certainly nothing like black outlined stars typical for Zavod 153.


I wonder if anyone could recognize the type, maybe from the engine of the second plane.

This is a repair workshop, not a series production line: I-16 in foreground could be (and probably is) different type then the I-16 in background.  We have seen photos from Zavod 51 which show old I-16s (Type 5 or 10) overhauled together with late I-16s (Type 18 or later).

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/3be02f4720a7.jpg)

Back to Kaluga photo:  note the tail of the I-16 in foreground - tailfin and rudder came from two different planes: Tailfin has remnants of tactical number "3" and rudder has half of red star

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-16%20Kaluga%20remont%201942_zpsn3acmkdf.jpg)

This image shows again how many overhauled planes were composites put together from parts of different planes.  Most overhauled planes were armed with underwing RS rockets - this type of armament wasn't typical to any type before Type 29.  So, the question of overhauled I-16 Type doesn't always have a straightforward answer...

HTH,
KL

PS:  another (heavily retouched) photo that may have been taken at the same overhaul base at Kaluga

(http://modelist-konstruktor.com/img/5870/5.jpg)

This photo was published in Modelist-konstruktor magazine and caption says it was Type 5.  Photo was obviously taken in summer, probably before the war...


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 11, 2016, 10:11:38 PM

Slightly confused by the answer. Sorry.
Are you saying that the units were unknown or they were collectively known as the Kalinin Front air force for example?

Also looking at the link you provided for the photo & using Google translation from the image it lists some interesting text.

http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22history%22%3A%7B%22category%22%3A%22wars%22%2C%22period%22%3A%221980%22%7D%7D/


Великая Отечественная война. 1942. Калининский фронт. 31-я армия. Летчики Н-ского полка перед вылетом на задание. = The Great Patriotic War. 1942. Kalinin Front. 31st Army. Pilots N-sky regiment before leaving for the job.

What would the N-sky regiment be? Plus the 31st Army?   

N-sky was a phrase used in Soviet press to denote that the military didn't want to disclose units real designation/name...  Absolutely nothing to do with "Nevski"  ;D

Units designation/name was always treated as a military secret.  In press, units were sometimes referred after their commander; "regiment commanded by ..." or after very general geographic location; "regiment fighting at Stalingrad".  In this case it was disclosed that the regiment was subordinated to Kalinin Front (the highest command level before Stavka).

Text attached to image doesn't say much. Something like "RAF Squadron of the 8th Army, Libyan front..."

HTH,
KL   


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 11, 2016, 10:22:33 PM
Hi,
I've noticed the digit on the tail, it would turn into a nice profile, but the nose shape and color would be only hypothetical.
The prewar plane is nice too, it seems to have a grey or grey-silver livery, rarely seen on I-16s. It has a very visible gunsight that led to its identification as type 5.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 11, 2016, 10:43:14 PM

Some Wikapedia information listing some useful stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinin_Front
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Air_Army

Useful stuff indeed, hope you understand now what and where was Kalinin Front...  :)

There is even more info at Russian wikipedia at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F_(%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

There is a status listing at May 16, 1942.  3rd Air Army comprised of 9 fighter regiments among other aviation regiments. Most of those fighter regiments were equiped with Lagg-3s.  But...

There was only one fighter regiment with I-16s subordinated to 256 iad (Fighter Division) - 728 iap

more about the 728 iap at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/728-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

interesting info at the beginning of the page:
Сформирован в г. Чимкент Казахской ССР (Среднеазиатский военный округ), из летчиков-инструкторов находившейся в эвакуации Чугуевской военной авиационной школы пилотов (ЧВАШП), в ноябре-декабре 1941 года. На вооружении при формировании имел 20 отремонтированных в авиационных ремонтных мастерских ЧВАШП (ныне ? Чугуевский авиационный ремонтный завод) самолётов И-16.

Translation:
Formed in Shymkent Kazakh SSR (Central Asian Military District), from instructor pilots who were evacuated from Chuguev military aviation school of pilots (CHVAShP) in November-December 1941. At formation armed with 20 (twenty) I-16s overhauled in aircraft repair shops of the CHVAShP (now - Chuguev Aircraft Repair Plant).

HTH,
KL



Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: barneybolac on July 12, 2016, 06:52:15 AM

Some Wikapedia information listing some useful stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinin_Front
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Air_Army

Useful stuff indeed, hope you understand now what and where was Kalinin Front...  :)

There is even more info at Russian wikipedia at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F_(%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

There is a status listing at May 16, 1942.  3rd Air Army comprised of 9 fighter regiments among other aviation regiments. Most of those fighter regiments were equiped with Lagg-3s.  But...

There was only one fighter regiment with I-16s subordinated to 256 iad (Fighter Division) - 728 iap

more about the 728 iap at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/728-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

interesting info at the beginning of the page:
Сформирован в г. Чимкент Казахской ССР (Среднеазиатский военный округ), из летчиков-инструкторов находившейся в эвакуации Чугуевской военной авиационной школы пилотов (ЧВАШП), в ноябре-декабре 1941 года. На вооружении при формировании имел 20 отремонтированных в авиационных ремонтных мастерских ЧВАШП (ныне ? Чугуевский авиационный ремонтный завод) самолётов И-16.

Translation:
Formed in Shymkent Kazakh SSR (Central Asian Military District), from instructor pilots who were evacuated from Chuguev military aviation school of pilots (CHVAShP) in November-December 1941. At formation armed with 20 (twenty) I-16s overhauled in aircraft repair shops of the CHVAShP (now - Chuguev Aircraft Repair Plant).

HTH,
KL



Well done on finding the squadron information KL. 8)


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 13, 2016, 10:10:59 PM
Although we know the regiment this I-16 belong to, the question of its colours is still open...

During the winter 1941/42, three paints were used to camouflage planes:

- "permanent" white
- silver
- "temporary" (washable) white

"Permanent" white paint was sprayed in factories or overhaul workshops so it was even, nontransparent and semi-glossy or glossy.

Silver paint was also sprayed and it also looks even, solid/nontransparent and semi-glossy.  Some airplanes were painted overall in silver (both upper and undersides were painted in same silver).

Temporary white was usually brushed in the field so it's rough, uneven (sometimes semi-transparent, sometimes solid) and flat (matte). Usually it weathered quickly so it looks washed away or chipped.  It was common to paint in white only a part of the airplane (rear fuselage and tail, or wings, rear fuselage and tail), or to apply white in a disruptive pattern.


IMHO, there is no temporary white on this particular I-16 - or at least nothing like typical rough, uneven, flat and weathered MK-7...   IMHO, this I-16 can be compared with 12 giap MiG-3 No "02"

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/Red02n.jpg)

If this MiG-3 was white, silver and green, then our I-16 has to be white, silver and green:

-  glossy white fuselage
-  silver wings (+ silver fuselage patches)
-  green engine cowling

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16ipo2.jpg)


Quote from: marluc on June 30, 2016, 02:33:03 PM
Quote
Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver

Yes Martin, I agree with you...  :)

Regards,
KL
  


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 14, 2016, 08:53:23 PM
Better copies of the famous MiG-3 photo:

(http://politpuzzle.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/670.jpg)

(http://cs7006.vk.me/v7006799/1a4af/ETzDVLUVxB0.jpg)

these photos better show reflections on glossy white fuselages and relatively dull silver noses of two planes in foreground.

Regards,
KL


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 15, 2016, 12:41:15 PM
Hi,
I don't think that the fuselage was glossy white. Should it be glossy, it should create sharp reflections of other things as the pilots and the horizon.
Certainly it was painted by brush, we see the strokes in the fillet of the stabilizer.
Usually silver is very difficult to be painted by brush, brush strokes remain very visible and we don't see this on the photo.
The rudder, that is from another plane, appears painted exactly as the stabilizer, and wasn't repainted after the mounting; so, the color should be common to many planes of the unit. Besides the contour of the star on the rudder is slightly irregular, as made by brush without masking. I think that well covering matt white is more likely than silver.
About the color of the wings, stabilizers, elevators and tail cone: it doesn't show metallic reflections nor brush strokes.
Should it be sprayed silver, reflections should be visible at least on the cone that is curved.
The original livery had to be green/blue, we see traces of it under the stabilizer's leading edge. So green was repainted with something that appeared as a light grey, I don't know if it was really grey or thinned white or what else. For modellistic purposes, I suggest the use of light grey.
The patches look too dark to be silver, whatever is their angulation; silver patches on the back should reflect a lot of light. Their darkness is comparable to the red star, but they can't be red, eventually green.
I agree on the green cowling and on the light blue undersurface.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: KL on July 15, 2016, 07:31:39 PM
Hi,

This is what I see on this I-16 photo:

- Fuselage is sprayed in white.  Paint is even, non-transparent and semi-glossy/glossy. This paint definitively isn't matte - there are distinctive reflections on rear fuselage (exactly the same as on MiG-3 photo).

- Wings and horizontal tail upper surfaces are brushed in silver.  Ideally silver paint was sprayed, but not always:  for example, interior side of the part of LaGG-3 fuselage  in Vesivehmaa museum is brushed in silver.  On I-16 photo, brush strokes are clearly visible on wing.


You may exclude gray as an optional colour for this plane:  gray has never been considered nor used as a winter camouflage colour...  Except on a a few aerobatic planes, gray and silver scheme has never been used on series I-16s.

Matte MK-7 can be also excluded, at least for fuselage. Fuselage is definitively too glossy to be MK-7.


Compare two photos - MiG-3s and I-16 fuselages look the same:

(http://politpuzzle.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/670.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16ipo2.jpg)

Regards,
KL      


Title: Re: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 16, 2016, 08:25:22 AM
Hi,
I have made some notes on the image.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16ipo2b.jpg)
Certainly, the color of the fuselage has some shining, but I don't think it can be considered glossy because of the lack of reflections of the pilots.
Besides I don't think it is sprayed because there are brush strokes on its outline. The rudder was considered painted in the same way because there are not differences visible on this photo.
The dark parts visible on the wings don't seem the characteristic brush strokes visible on fully hand painted silver surfaces, but repairs as on the fuselage, repainted in light color.
When I write that the wings seem grey, I don't mean that grey paint was necessarily utilized. It could even be a layer of uniform but not covering white, or a layer of white with some impurity that, compared to cleaner white, seems as grey. Wings don't show any metallic shining, nor the tail cone shows it.
Regards
Massimo