Sovietwarplanes

Hello I'm preparing next model wich will be an I-153.

Kontantin knows welll the plane I will represent, it's the le Bourget museum one, in his original decoration.
the red 21 of the  236 IAP in june of 41
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/tapani/27red/27profsx-r.jpg)

so I will paint it in AII alu for fabric part and AE-9 for metalic parts.

about the AE-9

the official name if AE-9 is light grey and massimo in your color propositions you advocate neutral light grey.
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/chips/AE-9.jpg)

According to those pics and discutions we had in this forum
I was sure the grey was bluish
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_20.jpg)
(http://www.webpark.ru/uploads54/100908/Chroniks_10.jpg)
this one seems quite bluish too:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/i-153painting/AE-8_AE-9-rid.jpg)

But the Akhan AE-9 is grey beige.

Alex Gorodnichev a russian friend of mine agree with  that .
According to him a ggof reference can be the color of this engine:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/525363304154IMG5150DCE.jpg)

He think the SB-2 seems bluish because the plane is wet with the rain and the pic very flashy

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/395812AE9001.jpg)

other part of the SB-2 shows a beige tendance:

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/417882AE9007.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/546381AE9003.jpg)

but the pics who make me think it's realy grey beige is that one:

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/08/31//16083112455418634314461467.jpg)
this part could only have been paint in AII blue or AE-9 and in this case it's sure it's not AII blue...

so does anyone have more information about this or opinion?
thanks!

Xan

this picture is  important too:

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/09/01//16090110572618634314464181.jpg

when the coal was retired appears an exterior metallic part non repeinted by the germans : it is AE-9 without any doubt.
sur light is quite bad and paint is 70 years old, but i think we have here a quite goood idea of AE-9
light grey with a little beige tendance...

Xan

Hi Xan,
yes, I am familiar with le Bourget I-153 and thanks to this plane I know exactly what colour is AE-9.  :)

New, unweathered AE-9 is definitively light gray-green, not pure gray, not bluish gray... New AE-9 is glossy, almost as glossy as FS 595 chips which start with number 1

Most of the AE-9 that was revealed under green German paint is weathered - Germans re-painted the plane in 1942-43 when original paint was 3-4 years old.  It's almost certain that the plane was stored in open and exposed to the elements.  Weathered AE-9 paint is sun-bleached, chalked and covered in a network of very fine micro fractures (like old porcelain). It is semi-gloss to matte. Colour of weathered AE-9 is pale light gray; i don't remember any green tinge.

HTH,
KL

thank you Konstantine...
Xan

Hi,

This is interesting, but I wonder if the look of a paint not exposed to the sun is necessarily more accurate than a chip exposed. Observing the scans of the Nakrasok alboom, I suspect that the bonder of the paint becomes yellowish if not exposed to the light.
Some time ago, I was suggested a trick to reverse the turning to yellow of the film (or glue) of the decals sheet: to expose them to the full sun light (or, as a more dangerous alternative, to put them into boiling water).
Now I admit that I never did this, but I think that the possibility of this effect on the yellowing of a bonder should be taken into account.

Regards
Massimo

Paint yellowing or darkening present on many old paintings in gallerias and churches is better described as aging, not weathering.  Paint aging is caused by extremely slow processes within the paint (changes in relatively unstable pigments or media that were used) and reactions with aggressive chemicals from the air (smoke, H2S, etc.).

In case of preserved samples of Soviet paints from 1930-40es, paint aging is negligible. First; those samples are "only" 70-80 years old. Second: paint technology made huge progress in 20th century, so modern paints are generally better quality than those mixed several centuries ago.

Weathering is a different problem: it is caused by UV light, moisture (rain, snow) and extreme temperature changes.  If those adverse factors are removed, there is no weathering.  If plane had been stored indoors, in dry and shaded environment, weathering is negligible too.


Following photo shows how severe was paint weathering on le Bourget I-153

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/IMG_2170_zpst3jmk4uq.jpg)

Paint under the leather coaming was protected from UV light and moisture so the paint looks almost as new...  The rest of the paint is bleached, faded, chalked...


Hi Xan,

Alex is my friend too, he helped a lot in revealing the history of Musee de l'air Stratostat gondola.   :) :) :)

Just for the sake of accuracy:
-  engine crank cases were painted with special paints (check colour table at research pages) that were more resistant to engine oil/ fuel spills and high temperatures - so green-gray paint on your engine photo isn't AE-9
-  paint remnants in SB rear cockpit are almost certainly green ALG-1 and steel gray A-14


According to wikipedia beige is yellowish or light brown colour.  Check here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beige

It takes its name from French, where the word originally meant natural wool that has been neither bleached nor dyed, and hence also the color of natural wool.

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54696f80e4b076bf5ecfa9b6/t/578a88b7cd0f688aae09cdc3/1468696840363/)

AE-9 doesn't have yellowish or brownish tinge... It's light gray-green when new.

Check FS chip at http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=Federal%20Standard%20595&cRef=14449
This chip isn't the closest FS equivalent, it's just what on my screen looks like new AE-9

HTH,
KL

Hi,
Alex din't told me the engine paint was AE-9 but the colour was closed to AE-9.
and in fact, the FS reference you give is quite the same.
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/525363304154IMG5150DCE.jpg)
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/09/03//16090309302918634314467828.jpg)

you are right I had not to say grey beige but grey green...

But I am very impressed with that picture. if this part is not weathered, it seems light neutral grey, not grey green at all...
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/IMG_2170_zpst3jmk4uq.jpg)

last thing, what is leather coaming please?

Xan

I was impressed too! I later enlarged that part of the picture, compared this picture with other pictures and I it looks that the paint under the coaming IS NOT AE-9.  It could be A-14 or some other paint used to paint small duraluminum parts (small parts like covers were painted in various shades of gray, brown and green instead of being primed with ALG-1).

this is "new", unweathered AE-9

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/IMG_2710_zpstl5tvwke.jpg)

Coaming, headrest and seat back cushion are made of material called "brezant" - artificial leather, textile impregnated with something dark brown.

HTH,
KL

it looks very light for A-14 i my opinion,  very strange the use of that paint in a exterior face...

So it is not a non sense to represent AE-9 in neutral grey...

I will do it in grey green.


Alex wants to take part in this discution but he can't suscribe  he have the fallowing message :
"Sorry, registration is currently disabled." (massimo do you know what it is ?)
he asked me to show this pic;
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/170643121906I153engine5.jpg)
it's a le bourget plane's part

Xan

Hi,
To avoid spammers, that made hundreds of subscriptione every week, now accounts can be created only by administrators.
Alex has to write to me, choosing the username he wishes.

The photo of Alex is interesting, but it can't add much if there is not another known chip photographed aside it to make comparisons.

The yellowed decals were not of Renaissance age. Some firms made decals whose films become yellow quickly, some have the white ink that becomes yellow, other ones are still perfect after 40 years. Between paints, Humbrol 49  (matt clear) is noticeable for its brownish shade.  To understand if AE-9 ages differently on the sunlight or in shadow, one could look for chips of white paint with the same bonder.



Akanihin has written to me about this topic, asking to add the link to his page about AE-9. This page was already discussed on this forum some years ago, leaving doubts on the  identification of the paint of the sample; anyway, this is the link.
http://akan.ru/articles/item/29-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%91%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%B0%D1%8D-9-%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0.html (http://akan.ru/articles/item/29-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%91%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%B0%D1%8D-9-%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0.html)

Regards
Massimo

He told it was done.

what a pity he doesn't take part in the discussion. if he talks as bad as I do in english we could understand each other perfectely!

Alex told me he talked about this page with Anakhine. in his opinion the colour of the gun sight si ALG-1.
that's akan AE-9.
(http://www.master194.com/forum/download/file.php?id=18081)
(http://akan.ru/images/articles/6-lom.jpg)

in my opinion, If it was so dark it would be more contrast betwen the metalic parts and the fabric

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/332909i153c15.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/6934541345758332i153.jpg)

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/754549i153c16.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i15/i-153/i-153painting/AE-8_AE-9-rid.jpg)

Xan

I agree that AE-9 was a light color/paint, and the gunsight has to be painted with another one, perhaps A-14.
ALG-1 should be zinc chromate, in the range of yellow (eventually greenish or brownish).
Regards
Massimo

Hi everybody!
I'm glad to joint this site and your discussions. Thanks Massimo!

Regarding article at AKAN's site I have many discussions with Alexander and despite of few samples that he was kind to show me I'm not finally convinced by him.
The samples that he is shown in articles from my knowledge are corresponding to ALG-5 (grey-green) largely used on Yak-9U and its development and post-war Lavotchkine airplanes.
This primer/finish was usually used inside airframe parts (parts of TB-3 wreks in this case is fully justified) and could be used for gunsights especially in postwar period. Alexander has found many samples at flight intrument's manufacturing plants but it is also quite possible that this ALG-5 may be later modified also in formula.
Thus I'm still based on idea and available sources that the AE-9 was some kind of analogue of the german RLM-02 i.e. grey-green having same "chameleon" properties depending of lightning and exposure conditions of the old B/W pictures.
I think it will be great to ask Cyrille from MAE/Ailes Anciennes to provide us more high-resolution pictures of inside of the larger possible number of cowling parts of I-153 under restoration.
Another important aspect is to take these pictures on natural light conditions but without sun blinks like they have done previously with their He-162 parts.
And the rear side of the frontal cowling is an important element because I suggesting that it's 100% original. Normally all the parts of engine cowling were painted from both sides at the painting shop by the same original colors. So probably ALG-1 or AE-9. And AE-9 may be painted upper ALG-1 primer - this need to be checked on original parts.

For example the same frontal cowling from external side being repainted few times
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/817600I153engine4.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=817600I153engine4.jpg)

Hey Alex,
it's a pleasure to read you here!
Xan

Thanks Xan ! Remain just to understang how to post pictures here ;D

Hi Alex, welcome here,
It is very good to know the idea of who has seen the original exhibits. ALG-5, you think?
I am in doubt about the piece of TB-3. For what I know, zinc chromate went in use in late '30s, around 1938, and TB-3 were built before. Of course, it is always possible that it was painted during maintenance works, if the surface was accessible. Do you know where is the piece from?
If I don't miss, the outside of the same piece was utilized as chip for the colors of the '30s, khaki-olive and 3B.
I am not convinced that the original AE-9 was greenish, also because it appears always very light in old photos, nearly white. Such a color would be well suitable to hide a flying plane from below, but it was surely demasking if seen from above, and the addition of some green can't change this.
Besides, the most usual green pigment is chromium oxyde, that is very stable and can't disappear quickly for the sunlight. Yes, it is not the only possible one.
Another possibility, more likely in my idea, is that the bonder of the paint was somewhat yellowish, and this can turn a neutral grey or grey-blue into grey-green. It would be interesting to know if this yellowish shade was visible when the color was new.
Anyway, having original samples, there is a possibility: to make a chemical analysis of pigments and see if there are traces of some typical green or blue one. I wonder how expensive this could be. An expert of paints chemistry could help to understand how the look of the samples could have changed in 70 or 80 years.

To post pictures here, one has to upload them into another site (ex. photobucket), then to insert them into the forum by a link or 'image'. Inserting small thumbnails with a link to a larger photo would be the best thing.

Regards
Massimo

Alex just like in master194.
 

Hi!
Yes, Massimo I agree with you that the dark-green color could be 3BO color painted on external surfaces of TB-3. Unfortunately it is hard to know exactly on wich side it was painted in reality.
As concern ALG-1 primer it was designed by VIAM in 1937.
ALG-5 in reality was designed for metallic parts only as simple mixt of zinc-chromate yellow ALG-1 and  grey laque A-14. This paint was more resistant and with better adhesion because of hot drying.
That is why it became essentially popular on Soviet all-metallic post-war fighters.
But within war period it is known that it was used on some series of LaGG-3 planes' entire cockpits.

In any case we need more details from MAE and accurate waching of removed mettalic parts of their Tchaika.
I'm far to make any conclusions right now.
Especially it seem that the MAE's I-153 was assembled from few airplanes.
Like an example an internal side of the engine's top + left-side cowling panels looking as painted into A-14(? like cockpit door?) and having serial No. different from the airframe !
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/710742I153engine2.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=710742I153engine2.jpg)

The comparison with original front cowling show clearly differencies between two colors and ALG-1 zink-chromate isn't ?
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/192057121906I153engine5.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=192057121906I153engine5.jpg)

Alex, that is what the germans went on:
(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/10/02//15100207384718634313627129.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=15100207384718634313627129.jpg)
konstantin will tell you better what they added....

You are right Xan.
All these replaced parts are described in previous post of Cyrille (Neoking) but unfortunately a lot of pictures posted by him few years ago coulldn't be opened and I don't know why.
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1000.0
Like this found hasardly
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/681148index.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=681148index.jpg)
 

it could be interesting to contact neoking to have project's news...
I knew the restoration was stoped by the moment...

Xan

Lack of funds and free hands as usual...... ;D

Another sample for comparison : inside wing-box on after-war Yak-9U from Monino (using flash). For sure there are no atmospheric or sun factors affecting on painting inside the airframe.
The question is how close is that ALG-1 from Yak to rear side color of the frontal cowling from I-153 ?
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/378804DSCF6758.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=378804DSCF6758.jpg)

Hi Alex,

Do you say that the inner side of the first piece ia A-14 and the rear of the front plate is AE-9 because you (or other people) have seen different colors on the real thing? From the photo, this A-14 looks very light, but maybe it is overexposed. It would be good to see both pieces side to side in one photo.


To tell the truth, the surface with ALG-1 written on looks light grey to my eye. For what I know, ALG-1 should be yellow. Does the real piece appear as on the photo?

Regards
Massimo

It is a little more yellow in reality Massimo. This is an dark environment inside wing-box and no possibility to take picture without flash  :-\
As concern parts of I-153 we are to ask kind assistance of Cyrille to do new pictures and to wash some zones. It will be interresting for all of us.

Hi,
yes, washing the rear of the front plate and taking photos with some chip aside would be very useful for our purposes.
Regards
Massimo

Hi collegues, add my two cents.


This is shots made of myself of original parts of SB, with fragments of well-preserved paint:

AE-9

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/54799/62938661.16/0_f2239_95bd9e7d_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991801) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/113961/62938661.16/0_f2236_2bbc1c01_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991798)

A-14

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/114758/62938661.16/0_f2237_1818ca09_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991799) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/113961/62938661.16/0_f2238_ef08d05c_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991800)

ALG-1 (or zinc chromate) appear under destroed AE-9 coat by 70+ years weathering

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/153157/62938661.17/0_f223a_33d26234_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991802) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/153157/62938661.17/0_f223a_33d26234_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991802)

Massimo, I agree with your doubts about original painting of last shot of Yak. Because at parts clearly visible marks of non operational repaintings, i.e paint is not original.

2xan.

This engine is painted in random colors by museum staff and can't be used as a reference. I saw the AE-9 with my own eyes, and can say that it has nothing to do with the color of the engine housing. And by the way, you're right, AE-9 actually has a slight blue tint (but then I see it, it was in a deep forest, with notable shadow environment, and at full daylite may look some different).

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/103922/62938661.17/0_f223d_40073078_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991805)

Turret at photo don't have any signs of paint presence, i.e it's just destroed for years, it is plain aluminium, and even if the paint has remained there, it would have been А-14, because turrets was produced on a separate plant for different customers and never painted in the color of the aircraft, and A-14 was standart paint for such pieces of equipment (sometimes the ammunition boxes were painted in "army green" - nоn aviation color).

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/120455/62938661.17/0_f223e_2203bdb8_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991806)

It is Pe-2 leg, AE-9 never used for painting this plane, paints at photo is A-14 and ALG primer.

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/28072/62938661.17/0_f223f_d2308059_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991807)

More examples of AE-9.
I know, you want full spectral table with attached near the printing chips, but I was young and had in my pocket only cheap camera, sorry  :)

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/51134/62938661.17/0_f2240_254d8763_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991808) (https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/42618/62938661.17/0_f2241_19a4d5c8_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991809)

For my memory, AE was heavy matte, for comparison with A-14 which was semigloss and have very noticeable difference with color.

Mama mia!
one step forward, two steps back....
so, in this pic AE-9 is clearly grey or blue grey not green gray at all?

so if I resume:

- Massimo for you it's a neutral grey
- Alex for you it's a green gray
- Konstzntin for you it's a green grey
- Psy06 for you, it's a blue grey
Am i all right?

Xan

It is light gray with very little bluish tint, but, it was at shadow environment, at full lite, it possibly look more color neitral. Never seen any green tints even at heavy green forest reflections environment.

Sorry, but your suggestions are based on wrecks of one SB-2 only. Some painting are looking as degraded or heavy-weathered silver paint.
From wich part of the airframe are on last two pictures?

All photos from one plane.
I know what you talking about :) You might convince me, if I had based my opinion only by a photo, but I saw it with own eyes, in a beautiful, clean and undamaged condition, and see how look degraded silver too. Silver paint never look at it. Let me remind you that the SB painted silver is extreme rarity, mostly these "silver" SB was not painted at all, as such for example:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/141254/62938661.17/0_f2250_673a70cb_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991824)

This is how look degraded silver:

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/29473/62938661.17/0_f2251_ad08b617_L.jpg) (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/heavybomber/album/218647/view/991825)

The last one may correspond to AE-8 (mix of varnish and Alu powder) or AII alu  painted on cloth clearly visible on the above picture. Rudder / flaps parts?

Last photo is Er-2 tail, raised from river by Voronezh diving company "Peter" this summer.

Hi,
Er-2 is a rare bird, Have you any links to other photos of these wrecks, please?
Regards
Massimo

Official thread for this event, you need registration for viewing all content:
http://trizna.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=55427