Sovietwarplanes

Hi all,
at the end,
I've uploaded the page on La-7s and I've linked it from the Pages index.
The direct link is here.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7.html)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/44-45-t.jpg)
Please, let me know your impressions.
There is still something to add, but I can make it in more relaxed way.
Regards
Massimo

Fantastic excellent work.

Hi Massimo,
as already said excellent work.

Check, please, the page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozhedub.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27kozhedub/27kozhedub.htm) about Kozhedub. Seems the link at the very bottom of the page (La-7 in Monino) does not work properly - it does not show picture only html line.

I also miss there this photo:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/La-7/150626_Kozedub%20La-7_zpskawcazfw.jpg)
posted at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg17272#msg17272 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2021.msg17272#msg17272)
It is the latest interpretation of the Kozhedub's La-7 and it shows again two-tone camouflage. Plus note also blue outlined board number and red propeller spinner.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
you are right, the page isn't well refined. I'll make corrections as soon as possible. Besides I think to add drawings of the museum liveries, when I'll find time to.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
interesting comment at Modelforum.cz about your new La-7 page in Sultan Ahmet Chan section at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/9giap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/9giap.htm):

"Below, images of the emblem of Amet-Khan's P-39, that looks to be more complex of that of his La-7 and includes both a small plane and a ship as prays, and some details of the background that seem missing on the later plane."
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/ametkhancobra1.jpg)
However, that Cobra belonged to V.F. Sitotin:
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_41_b2.jpg)

Here is article about Sultan Ahmet Chan's Cobra http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg17542#msg17542 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg17542#msg17542)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
is the pilot of the photos Sirotin? So, has Amet-Khan  copied the emblem from his plane (and from the canned food)?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
you have a misidentified pilot in 16th giap page too:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/16giap/Bezimeni-2.jpg)

"The photo on the right shows Klubov close to the plane on which he died."

Pilot on that photo, whoever he is, isn't Klubov...

Regards,
KL

Hi KL,
thank you.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
according to the http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/sirotin.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/sirotin.htm) that guy in the Cobra is really Sirotin. Compare the photos:
Sirotin:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/sirotin11.jpg) and (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all3/sirotin1.jpg)

and Sultan Amet Khan http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_han.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_han.htm)
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/amet_h1.jpg)

IMHO Sultan Ahmet Khan did not copy the emblem from Sirotin's plane. They both copied picture of the eagle from the food can:
(http://www.atlas-repropaperwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/USA.jpg)
If I remember correctly I posted somewhere on the old forum link where was photo showing that eagle also on some other VVS planes but not Cobras. Seems that emblem was quite common.
regards,
   66misos


EDIT:
Here is that another plane with the same eagle - Po-2 - from http://forums.airforce.ru/do-1945/6160-orel-na-samolete-p-39-aircobra-vyacheslava-sirotina (http://forums.airforce.ru/do-1945/6160-orel-na-samolete-p-39-aircobra-vyacheslava-sirotina):
(http://i.imgur.com/OINU7Q3.jpg)

and the whole can:
(http://forums.airforce.ru/attachments/do-1945/59153d1416073750-img_294976_58234.jpg)

Thank you Misos.
I've modified the page.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've these photos on my hard disk.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/63-1.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/63-2.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/63-3.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/63-4.jpg)
I'm researching for informations on them.
According on what has collected Ruckovsky, they should be from Alexey Maresyev's visit to some unit in winter 1947-1948.
Who can find further informations on them?
According to my ideas, they are 3-guns La-7, painted with medium grey upper surface, light blue lower surface, cowling and spinner of an unidentified glossy color, small white numbers on the tail. I suspect that they have some larger numbers on the fiselage in blue or yellow, but I am not sure.

Regards
Massimo

Well,he's Maresyev for sure.
http://airaces.narod.ru/all6/maresyev.htm (http://airaces.narod.ru/all6/maresyev.htm)
The pilot is famous, but the details of the La-7 are still unknown.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARhFH_w0D98 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARhFH_w0D98)
Seems that there are not numbers on the fuselage.
The unit could be 63 giap where the pilot fought during the war.
The only important unknown factor is the color of the nose, I guess blue or orange.
Regards
Massimo

La-5FN flown by A.P Maresev was discussed at scalemodels.ru forum several times (with no results whatsoever...). La-7 you are interested in appeared at  http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14994_start_20.html

Post-war series of photos is available at https://russiainphoto.ru/search/?year_from=1860&year_to=1999&query=%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2

Photos are made by famous photo-correspondent Arkadiy Shaihet in 1946. It is 63 giap.

Regards,
KL

Thank you Konstantin.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I have got intersting inputs from Czech modelforum.cz at http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=875&t=99601&start=30#p1978958 (http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=875&t=99601&start=30#p1978958)

1.) Check, please, unit identification & fast recognition elements at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm):

Your La-7 no. "66 of an unit that could be 32 giap, or another regiment belonging to the same 3 giad"
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/66of32giap-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

vs.
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1285337)

2.) Czechoslovak La-7 no. 06
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/czech/06.jpg)
vs.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/czech/czech06gorkovsky-la72guns-lpr.jpg)
Whole metal panel beneath cockpit is repainted with gray color different from both AMT-11 and AMT-12. That dark area on the top is shadow.
 
3.) Czechoslovak La-7 White 77 (ex 60, ex SU-60), s/n: 45210860 at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7-postwar.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7-postwar.htm)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/x7.jpg)
It is this La-7, that bw photo is from Prague, 1966 and shows restored Lavochka in green and brown camouflage, as they had thought that was correct WWII appearence. Since that time she was repainted, at least partially, several times:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Lavochkin_La-7_77_white_%288238008376%29.jpg/300px-Lavochkin_La-7_77_white_%288238008376%29.jpg)
However, there is discussion at modelforum.cz wheter serial 45210860 is correct/original. Engine no. 82132260 should belong to serial 45210712 (could be replaced?) and that during renovation they reportedly found board number digit 7 and upper part of either 3 or 7 and therefore they painted 77. So, we will see the outcome.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

thank you for these informations.

About planes of 32 giap: I am aware of the difference on the ends of the lines. Unfortunately, there is not any alternative known. These planes are described as of 32 giap on the profiles of Aviakollectsia too.
Should an alternative identification emerge, I'll take it into account.

Thank you for the excellent photo of plane 39, this could be utilized for a profile. Do you know the original source?
Could you translate the caption, please?

The side panel of 06 seems really repainted. I'll correct it.

Thank you also for your warning about the plane 77 in Prague, I hadn't recognized it. On the photo, it looks painted with an uniform color.
Could the brown bands have been painted after this image was shot?

Regards
Massimo

Some interesting info about the eagle emblem for Misos:

Eagle emblem appeared on all food products that were supplied through lend-lease program to allied countries during WWII.  So it wasn't only on pork cans supplied to Soviet Union...
From http://www.atlas-repropaperwork.com/lend-lease-insignia/category/

(http://www.atlas-repropaperwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/disney_photo.jpg)
“An Identification Mark For United States Food.
Walt Disney (right) presents to Secretary of Agriculture Claude R. Wickard, an emblem he designed for use on the labels and markings of containers to identify anywhere in the world the food they hold. In this emblem, the United States Eagle protects a convoy from an Axis bomber and four stars symbolize the four freedoms – of expression, of religion, from fear, from want.”

(http://www.atlas-repropaperwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/origineel1.jpg)

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5319882/il_fullxfull.150773330.jpg?ref=l2)

In December 1941, Disney artist Hank Porter designed an emblem for the Department of Agriculture. A January 28, 1942 press release issued by the Federal government read in part:

“The American eagle, poised on guard above a cargo ship is the design…which will be available to identify U.S. food products wherever they are sent throughout the world.
The emblem was presented to Secretary Claude R. Wickard…in recognition of the vital part U.S. food is playing on both the home and foreign war fronts of the world. The new emblem, which will be available for voluntary use by packers, is expected to become a familiar part of the labels for food containers."

It looks that colour version of the emblem had red sky, like here:

(http://media.gettyimages.com/illustrations/eagle-illustration-id152405762?s=170667a)

it is probable that emblem on Sirotin's Airacobra olso had red sky, not blue!!!

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/297/pics/1_41_b2.jpg)

check photos; colour of the emblem is the same as colour of victory stars.

Regards,
KL

I have recently seen the page on La-7s was added to the index, a very welcome addition IMHO.
I would like to suggest tackling one neglected bird - Golubov's three-gun "white 33" from 4th GIAP

Now, as we know from two photos available so far, already mentioned here,
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=652.msg3109#msg3109

We can certainly assume it is not a "33" as the second digit is rounded at the top.
It could really be any combination of numbers in this font (one with flat top, other with round - 30, 70, 38, 78. etc...)

I plan to do make an educated guedd and build it as "30", so I would like to hear other opinions on this.
Also, Black outline to the numbers - is there any proof for this?
It would certainly be the only machine so far to use black...

Hi,
you have rightly pointed on the fact that there is not photographic evidence of plane 33 of Golubev, for what I know.
One could make a profile or a model of some plane 33 and, if it was not the one of Golubev, it could be of one of his fellows.
Unfortunately there is not a sure evidence that the emblem on the tail was as drawn on profiles of MBI, an oblique white cap, or a white rudder as La-5FN of the same unit. http://wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/335/pics/1_21.jpg (http://wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/335/pics/1_21.jpg)
Only the white spinner meets consensus.
Besides, 3-guns planes were produced in small number, and nearly all the known photos are shot after the war; so, a strong evidence is needed to represent his plane with 3 guns.
About the outline of the number: I see  on the photo you've linked that the outlines of the first number are two, an external light one (red or medium blue) and an inner one (almost surely black).  This is not a factory standard, it was done in the unit.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/th_Golubov.jpg (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/warhawk_photo/razno/th_Golubov.jpg)
I suggest to choose a better documented plane for your project; as an alternative, you could follow an existing profile as it is, knowing that it's very difficult to demonstrate that it is wrong.
Regards
Massimo

Wow, great ability to spot the details!
It was probably a sloppy job over a standard blue outline.
But if I represent it as such on a model, everyone will think there was an error with the decals  :P


Thanks for a suggestion, but a bug has nested in my head on doing this exact machine...
If I eventually do choose another, it will definitely be another "three-gunner"

Aleksandar

Hi Aleksandar,
Are we sure that the plane in the photo is a La-7?
Regards
Massimo

If You take a look at my link, You will see two photos - one with him in front of a Lavochkin,
and the other one - from Osprey's "Aircraft of the Aces 056 LaGG & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2" - which states that it is Golubov's La-7 being serviced:
Are these two photos related or taken at the same time? I do not have that information...

Hi Massimo,
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1285337)
The boy "Son of the regiment" Michail from 434 iap (32 giap) Michail standing by the aircraft La-5 of Division commander - colonnel V.I. Stalin, Berlin 1945.
I do not know original source of this photo, it was posted at modelforum.cz.

According to the some/latest info that plane was painted with the post war solid green color during restoration and after aproximately 2 months brown areas were added.

Hi KL,
Thank you for a very interesting info (Disney Corp. is author of the logo for L-L food deliveries) and photos.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, thank you.
The translation is a bit difficult to understand. Is Mikhail the son of the colonel Stalin?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I have re-formulated it. However, IMHO it is not La-5 but La-7.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I agree, certainly a La-7.
Regards
Massimo

hi all,
i made some updates adding some profiles:
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/32giap/32giap.htm)
32 giap
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/9giap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/9giap/9giap.htm)
9 giap
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/178giap/178giap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/178giap/178giap.htm)
178 giap.

Please, let me know your comments.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Aleksandar
you can find a less cropped version of this image at
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV12-4/17-1.jpg (http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AV/AV12-4/17-1.jpg)
Here you can see that not only the upper part of the rudder is painted white, but the part of fin over the red star.
This could justify the suspect that the mark on the tail resembled to that of 156 giap, that resembles to that of the mysterious plane 10
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm)

Of course, it could also be that all the rudder is white, or that the white area ends in other ways, but it is a point for the profile ov Vestsik.
I think also to see a vague dark blotch in the same position where plane 10 has a small anchor; this is another point for a similarity between these planes.

Another thing: Red Stars of Geust says that theplane behind Golubev is a La-5FN, not a La-7. The wire aerial shown in the photo looks unusual for a La-7.
So, this photo doesn't prove that the number 33 is wrong. If Vestsik obtained the 33 from some memoirs, it could be that his profile is fundamentally right, apart for the lack of the anchor and the leading edge. Maybe it hadn't the black outline around its number.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks for a great explanation. So it's not a La-7 at all, let alone a late-war three-gunner!
Oh well, "back to the OKB-mobile" in search of another scheme...

Hi Aleksandar,
I have other drawings and photos for other interesting planes.
Anyway, now I am considering to make a drawing of plane 33, things are a bit more clear and I can hope that Vestsik had some verbal sources, even if he mistaked the association to the photo. My main doubt is if it was really a 3-guns plane.
Regards
Massimo

Hi ,
who knows if it is possible to contact Milos Vestsik, the author of the monograph edited by MBI?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I communicated with him via e-mail some years ago, I found him at VIF. I will try to find that address.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
it would be great.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've tried a reconstruction of the plane of Golubev.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/33of4giap-kbf-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

I've explained all the considerations on it at

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm)

The similarity with plane 10 suggests that its identification as the plane of Zaitsev, the deputy division commander, is likely.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
if that profile should represent this plane:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/golubev-f.jpg)
I do not think it has board number 33. On the bw photo above the first digit of the board number has straight top horizontal bar (3 or 7), but the second digit behind Golubev's left shoulder is rounded (0,2,6,8 or 9).
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
no, it is not the same plane. The plane on the photo is a La-5FN photographed in summer 1944, after his last victory. The roster of individual victories is complete (39), excluding the shared ones. The wire is as on La-5FN, and it is named as La-5 by Geust and Mellinger.
The base for my profile is the photo from the front shown on a Russian magazine, that let see a piece of the tail, and the resemblance to plane 10.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
check the antenna wire at this photo:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1287535)
The upper wire clearly connects the top of the antenna mast behind the cockpit with the top of the small mast on the tail. But if I see correctly, the bottom wire goes from the top of the small tail mast to the base of the mast behind the cockpit (not typical for La-7).
I do not see there bottom wire going in standard "La-7 way" e.g. from the base of the small tail mast to the top of the mast behind the cockpit like on your profile.
Or is it only optical illusion?
regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I think that you are right about the wire. In facts, n.10 has a nearly identical arrangement.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.jpg)
the only difference is that, both on the mysterious 3x and on the La-7 from the front, the wire looks to join directly to the base of the mast instead of an insulator moved a bit back.  This is not a factory arrangement, n.10 has still the hole for the original insulator on the glazed panel where it enters on usual La-7s.
Implications: this seems to point that 3x and the other plane are the same, and 10 is at least of the same division. Certainly 3X is of Golubev because it has the right number of victories. If it is so, 33 is wrong. should 33 be right, this would say that 3x is his La-5FN.
If Golubev wrote memories, then he could have written both the number of his La-7, both the number of his last La-5FN. It shouldn't be so difficult to find who has read them.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

according to the http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm):
"On June 28, 1944, he won his last victory, sending to the water of the Gulf of Finland fighter FW-190. And the last combat sortie at Koenigsberg was carried out already on the new La-7 fighter."

I have found Golubev's memoirs "In the name of Leningrad" at http://bookscafe.net/book/golubev_vasiliy-vo_imya_leningrada-29299.html (http://bookscafe.net/book/golubev_vasiliy-vo_imya_leningrada-29299.html)
and there is written:
"Yes, I fought (on I-16). It had board number 33, the same as now..."
"On 1st April (1945) our regiment came to the airport near Koenigsberg on La-5 and La-7 fighters...our pilots there flew american Cobras..."
"On 6th May we came to airport Aglonen near Palanga...there were two rows of La-5 and La-7 fighters..."
"Four La-5...the zero sixteenth (Call sign of Shestopalov)", e.g. 016?...I (e.g. Golubev) "the thirty third..."

At least according to this book it looks like Golubev flew La-5(FN) with board number 33. ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I have asked to Oleg, he found this:

Strange, plane 3x has the right number of victories and has to be his plane. But which one? The medals seem the same of the photo with Semyon Lavochkin, dated 25 september 1944. This is compatible both with La-5FN and with La-7.
Perhaps the La-7 had a different number when delivered, and he made it change into 33 in a second time. Numbers of Lavochkins were painted in factory, but it is strange that he always received n.33 from factory, (La-5. 5FN, 7) so it could have been repainted  at the unit on his order, just as his I-16 n.13. If so, the plane on the photo has to be a La-7 just delivered, they had the time to paint the starlets and to arrange the wires in that unusual way, but the work on the number has still to be made.

Regards
Massimo

Or, perhaps his callsign wasn't the same of the number painted on his plane?
The plane 3x of the photo looks already personalized, if they had to change the number, they would have done this first.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
to complicate things a bit more - on this photo red arrows point to the blotch that is apparently brighter than surrounding AMT-11. Even its boundaries are not do nicely difuse like on dark area on the left. Is it repainting of the original number (33?) or only a local repair?
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1288021)

That dark area is exactly there where one would expect dark grey AMT-12 - compare it with the standard camouflage on La-5FN on the photo bellow:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1288022)

Your profile should have the right boundary of the AMT-12 more to the right. 2-3 left columns of the victory starlets should be on dark AMT-12, you have them on AMT-11:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/33of4giap-kbf-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
you are right about a double change of shade in the greys.
Though, I have the impression that the repainting is the darkest part on the left, because it returns light close to the star.
Besides, I think to see a light repainting at the base of the mast, probably related to the modification necessary to make the wire enter here.
If so, th dark band of the original camouflage was moved unusually back.
The plane doesn't seem as just delivered, but aged and repaired. It would be good to know the date of the shot for sure.

Another question:

The same as now, he answered... was this an interview? When was it made? He uses the past to speak about 6 May (1945?)

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Could be, or it could be only a shadow from something not very close to the aircraft, or only damaged photo (blotches like from water drops are visible)...

No interview. Standard soviet memoirs - telling stories from the past with minimum technical details. I doubt they flew La-5 in 1945 like described in memoirs. IMHO those so called "La-5" were actually La-5FN.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
I've added a profile to the page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7-postwar.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/la-7-postwar.htm)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/99square-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/99square-f.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Another one of the same page.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/postwar/guardstail-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/19-2.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Another one.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/523iap/97of523iap-f.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/523iap/97of523iap-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I have asked Milos Vestsik, the author of the monograph of La-7 of MBI, about the plane of Golubev. He hasn't further informations.
I would resume here some considerations:
on his memoirs, Golubev says that its callsign was always '33';
it is likely that he passed more planes (I-16, La-5, 5F, FN,7); it is unlikely that they all were numbered 33 in factory, unless he didn't order to repaint the number (apart for the I-16);
the plane with victories is certainly his plane because of the victories, but it could be either a La-5FN and a La-7;
this plane is not numbered 33, so he didn't make repaintings;
this plane is worn and already personalized, so it is not waiting that its number is repainted into 33;
the victory stars are cleanly painted over the retouches; they seem painted all together and later than the retouches; so, they could have been painted shortly before the photo session; perhaps Golubev usually flew without victory markings;
the first delivery of La-7 in September 1944 was of 20 planes, so there is 20% probability that there was a plane 33 between them; if there was one, surely Golubev would have taken it.
My conclusion is that the callsigns was not as the number painted on the plane, and that perhaps Golubev flew without victory stars for the most of time.
So, I have elements to draw a generic plane of the unit, without starlets; probably it'll be identical to the one of Golubev apart for the number (that won't be 33).
Any ideas?
Regards
Massimo

Thanks for a very detailed and interesting update!

Aleksandar

Hi,
a new update: Milos thinks to be able to decide the number of the plane of Golubev with victories from fragments of other photos; for what I can understand, these photos should confirm that it was a La-7. He has on work a new book on La-5 and 7.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I do not know rules how to assign the callsigns, how VVS did it during WWII. However, board numbers were big, even outlined to be very well visible and easily readible during dog fights. It was vital to know who is sitting in the next plane when, for instance, was necessary to warn him against the attack from his back. It would be very confusing during such stressful situations to see one number and hear diffrent number...

On the other side, Pokryshkin flew different Cobras from his unit (his own "100", Sukhov's "50", Rechkalov's "PGA", etc.) and I wonder whether he always used callsign "sotyj", e.g. "the hundredth". If I remember correctly I read somewhere that he used (also) callsign "Tiger", which was indipendent from board number.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I agree that it is confusing, but the opposite conclusion, that all of his planes were numbered 33, is uncompatible with the known photo.
I think also unlikely that the memoir of the pilot is so wrong, if he answered to the radio with that callsign.
Now i have to decide how to arrange that page, whilst waiting for new documents.
Probably I'll leave, provisionally, the profile with the conventional number 33, warning that the real number has still to be unveiled.
Or perhaps, I'll draw only a generic plane of the unit without victories and with a generic number. I will arrange the wire as on the photos, and numbers with black outline.
Any suggestions?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
browsed through VIF, there is a lot of discussions about Golubev (the longest one is at https://www.vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/0/archive/46/46459.htm (https://www.vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/0/archive/46/46459.htm)). Unfortunately no final resolution, neither La-5 vs. La-7 not 33 vs. other number.
Only thing that seems to be mostly accepted is that Golubev did not have 3-gun La-7.
Golubev achieved all his victories on La-5(FN), he had no victory on La-7, he flew it only since April 1945.
Interesting detail - Golubev's La-7 had reportedly donation inscription, but now photo is publicly known.
May be Russian speaking/reading members of this forum will find there additional info I overlooked.

Even guys it VIF see memoirs as "artistic literature" written by a group of people (pofessional writers) approved by "so-called" author, some 30% could be historicaly correct, the rest are fairy tales /propaganda... It was also many times discussed when Pokryshkin's memoirs were given as a source of information.


All victory starlets seems to be painted all at once, probably after the war for "parade" photos. Same like on Kozhedub's La-7 and many other planes.

IMHO one generic La-5FN with board number 33 and generic La-7 with board number let's say 30 outlined by dark blue like this:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1023704)
and both without victory starlets could be OK for war time era.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi all,
please, have a look to the photo linked here, particularly to the La-5FN and La-7.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/133697406@N05/34255681651/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/133697406@N05/34255681651/)
I strongly suspect that the photo was made at the ceremony for the delivery of the first batch of La-7s to 4 GIAP KBF.
In first place, the photo is interesting because it confirms that the La-5FN had the rudder fully painted white, while La-7s of the same unit had an oblique white cap.
In second place, note that the La-7 shown here as representative of the batch is numbered 70, that is fully compatible with the mysterious number of the plane (ex-33) of Golubev:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1288021)
It wouldn't be strange if the plane shown as representative was the one assigned to the commander of the unit.
Interestingly, the same number is shown on the profile of EP at
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/La7-3gun/index.php (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/La7-3gun/index.php)
even if he admits that it is only a speculation from what is possible to see on the known photo of Golubev.
Regards
Massimo

Just to add more facts to your point.

Golubev in a couple of images.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/golubev_vf5_zpsmqdoub3j.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/golubev_vf5_zpsmqdoub3j.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/LA%205%207%20Russian/golubev_vf8_zpshuxbfu0t.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/LA%205%207%20Russian/golubev_vf8_zpshuxbfu0t.jpg.html)

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsoviet-aces-1936-53.ru%2Fabc%2Fg%2Fgolubev_vf.htm&edit-text=

Hi,
interesting images. The plane seems to have a white rudder, so it is likely that it was a La-5FN.
The beginning of the serial could say something.
regards
Massimo

Hi,
i've replaced the profile n.33 of Golubev with this one:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/70of4giap-kbf-la72guns-lpr.jpg)
on page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm
 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10whitenose.htm)

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
compare your picture, please, with this photo:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1288021)
It looks like:
- there is repainted area under the digit 7, marked by red arrows - repainted original board number?
- IMHO there is dark blue outline of the board number, pained not precisely on the edges of the digits,
- one antena wire on the photo is going to the bottom of the antena mast, not like on your picture
- what is staht dark area reaching to teh third column of the starlets - only a shadow or AMT-12 like on this La-5FN?
(http://forum.valka.cz/files/la5fn-2_163.jpg)
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
you are very right.
Now I've modified the profile, modifying  the wiring, camouflage and the outline. I strongly suspect that the outline could be red and black instead of two shades of blue.
Interestingly, the peculiarities of the camouflage of the plane ov Golubev photographed behind him look compatible with what I think to see on the photo of plane 70 from far.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/70mof4giap-kbf-la72guns-lpr.jpg)


I've modified plane 10 too, in the same way (but without touching the camo pattern that doesn't look identical)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/10whitenose/10ofkbf-la72guns-lpr.jpg)

Hi Massimo,

regarding plane no. "70" IMHO:
- color under the victory starlets is standard/original AMT-11, but color under (at least) the digit 7 is different, lighter repainting,
- according to Aviakollektia VVS Colours 1941 - 1945, page 25 at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=906.msg5004#msg5004 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=906.msg5004#msg5004) the "...star began to paint with two border: white - a width of 5 cm and red - 1 cm..."

White and red outline of the star on this photo basicaly agree with that rule, or may be both outlines are a bit thicker, painted by brush:
(http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1288021)

Then dark outline of the number "70" looks significantly thinner, something between 0.5 and 1 centimeter and is pretty regular and straight. To my eyes it looks more like thin stripe of the dark tape. And even thinner white outline (left intentionally or unintentionally, does not matter) is just exceeding board number.
I would exclude red color - IMHO it is either black or dark blue.

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,

i think that the colors around the number 7 are the original AMT-11 and 12, faded, while the dark thing over the bravce of the star is a later repainting, made before painting the starlets. The fact that some light space remains between the star and the dark blotch reveals it as a retouch. Nothing similar around the numbers, in my idea.
Of course, this means that the original (or repainted much time before)  band of AMT-12 was moved back than its usual position on other La-7s. This looks compatible with the photo from far.

The outlines of the numbers haven't relation with those of the star. I suppose that the inner outline is black because it can't appear darker and sharper, while the thing around is of another color, and the shade is compatible with how the starlets appear on this photo. Of course, should other photos be found where the outline appears different from the starlets, the thing would suggerst a different color.

Plane 10  is certainly related to 70; on the photos of 10, the red star appears very dark, as black, and the outline around the numbers is very thick and dark.
in my idea, this points on another red and black outline, that could be a characteristic of La-7s of 4 giap kbf.

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
after a suggestion of A. Ruckovsky, I've modifiied the attribution of La-7 n.97 from 523 IAP to 50 IAP.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/523iap/523iap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/523iap/523iap.htm)
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I was noticed by one my friend about two discrepancies regarding this plane:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/44kovalev-la72guns-lpr.jpg)
form your page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/482%20iap.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/482%20iap.htm)

You have 2x6 white starlets (group victories) on your profile.
However, on the photo only 2x5 white starlets are visible:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/44.jpg)
something like this:
(http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/korol_la.jpg)
Moreover, according to your page it is Kovalev's plane.
However, according to the http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/korol_vi.htm (http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all0/korol_vi.htm) it should be Vitalij Ivanovich Koroljov (Korolev) ???
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
thank you for the warning.
About the number of stars, though, the spacing suggests that each row is of 6 stars.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/44b.jpg)

About the name of the pilot, I suppose that the site is right, I'll modify it and add a link to the page.

Best regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I played with the picture a bit:
(https://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/44_zpsupxz7ggn.jpg)
It shows 6 columns of the red stars (6x4 individual victories) plus 5 columns of the white stars (5x2 group victories).
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I see, you're right.
I've modified the profile, but I still see it with 6 starlets on the site. I suppose that it is a matter of cache. 
Thank you for your warning.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've forced the update by modifying the name of the file.
Probably the link on your post is broken.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/482iap/44kovalev-la72gunsb-lpr.jpg)

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

IMHO it is much better now. Anyhow, could you chceck the position of the bottom middle white starlet against the top of the digit "4"?
Maybe to move white starlets a bit to the right, or move left digit 4 a bit to the left and the right digit 4 a bit more to the left - it would also decrease the space between the left and right digits 4 and the right digit 4 would be off the circular hatch on its right side - same like on the photo.

Regards,
  66misos

Interesting rudder scheme on #92.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fava.org.ru%2Fiap%2F92.htm

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/92/la7-92-bemov.jpg)

Yes, very interesting. I can suppose that the upper/mid part of the rudder was painted... silver?
There is a band on the low part that could seem painted in a dark color, maybe red.
Apart for the rudder, have you noted the small spiral on the spinner?
Another note: it seems a 3-guns La-7.
Regards
Massimo

Wasn't sure if the spiral was by design or an accident it was done so badly it left me with doubts.
The rest all makes sense.

most probably the sunblind lightshaded the rudder.

Hi,
I don't think that the rudder is angulated, look at the shadow of the stabilizer, it should have a change in angulation between rudder and fuselage if the rudder was angulated.
It is likely that there is reflection, but on a glossy surface. I don't think that the rudder was camouflaged.
Regards
Massimo

Looking through the La-7 pages, (for 3 gun types, from the discussion of '92' ) I noticed there look to be a thin dark  outline on the edge of the rudder, not very clear, but look at at the rear light(?) on the trim tab against the pale background, perhaps only just around the trim tab?
I could  be something behind the plane, but it follows  the shape of the rudder very neatly.


Why is do you think '92' is a 3-gun La-7,  I can't see a difference.

Hi,
I think to see a dark outline too. I don't see how it could be a separate object, so it is likely that it was painted on. It is not fully clear where it ends, I think just close to the top of the rudder.

About 92: I think that a bulge should be visible on the profile of the nose from this perspective.  On this photo I think to see a straight long bulge up to the rear of the cowling, more or less as on this photo.
This is typical of 3 guns La-7.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/la-7/la-7colors/27sannikov/790iap-bn27%20kom1ae%20AKSannikov.jpg)

Regards
Massimo