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Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lend-lease planes => Topic started by: Audrius on November 02, 2005, 03:43:40 PM



Title: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Audrius on November 02, 2005, 03:43:40 PM
hi friends,
at the moment I am building Hurricane IIc by Revell that is supposed to represent RAF. But since I have got a second kit of IIc as well, that could represent IIc in VVS. But I am lacking info on those particularly in VVS.  At the moment I can recall only one picture , very poor of IIc in VVS. Due it'is quality it was not possible to define any camo on it. Even worse, I have lost the place where I saw it!  ???
Would appreciate if you would share info on the subject.

Regards, Audrius


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: JP on November 02, 2005, 06:17:52 PM
I knew they had some, but you're a little ahead of me in that I have never seen an image of one.? I finally gave up and just got the 1/48 Hasegawa MkIIb.? I hope someone finds it.? Maybe I will look again.? I would like to see it!


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 03, 2005, 12:06:32 AM
I think to have seen an image of an all-black Soviet Hurricane, but I don't remember where, and I am suspecting to have dreamed it by night. :(
Massimo


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on November 03, 2005, 01:48:39 AM
I also have no knowledge of the IIC in VVS service.
they did get a fair number of IIB's though.
that pattern is actually fairly common.

would you like a scan ?

(silly question, right?)


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Audrius on November 03, 2005, 10:29:39 AM
hello DGM!

I also have no knowledge of the IIC in VVS service.they did get a fair number of IIB's though. that pattern is actually fairly common.
would you like a scan ? (silly question, right?)

Yes I would prefere to see the picture of it, please!
For sure, VVS has got many of IIB, but there were plenty of IIc as well. And I wonder why there is so little documentaion on this type of Hurri!  ???
I will try to recall where I saw that the only pic of IIc and 'll post here.

BR Audrius


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Audrius on November 04, 2005, 04:16:58 PM
hi
Here you are the only pic that is known to me of IIc in VVS. It is taken from "Hawker Hurricane p.2" by AJ-Press.

(http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Audrius/MkIIc_486IAP_PVO_via_AJPress.jpg)

The caption of pic says this Hurri belonged to 486 IAP PVO.
Due to quality it's difficult to track the camo of this IIc, neverthelless it is a small evidence of the usage those 20 mm canons  in VVS.

BR Audrius


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: JP on November 04, 2005, 04:19:35 PM
Yes, too bad almost the whole aircraft is reflecting the sky!


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on November 10, 2005, 01:44:44 AM
Audrius,

yesterday I recieved a new book ...

"Air Arsenal North America"
aircraft for the allies 1938-1945
purchase and Lend-Lease
by Phil Butler andDan Hagedorn
Midland Publishing
ISBN 1-85780-163-6

page 134 states that under the Russian protocols of Lend-lease 1,130 Hawker Hurricane IIC's were allocated to the Soviet Union.
unfortunately the authors could not get Soviet documents so there is no verification of which ones actually served in the USSR.
(there is also a list of planes that were sunk during convoy)

(you were more right than you knew !)
this book also lists all the serial numbers for them.
are you looking for a specific machine? that would be easier for me than listing ALL of them.

the scans for the camo pattern will be e-mailed to you as they cannot be posted to this forum.
(they do not have an internet URL and are on my hard-drive.)

can you fix that JP ?


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Audrius on November 10, 2005, 05:27:28 PM
hello

> yesterday I recieved a new book ...

You are lucky  ;D Is it freshly published one?

> are you looking for a specific machine? that would be easier for me than listing ALL of them.

Regarding IIc VVS I have non of them in specific, 'cause simply they are not known to me!  ;D
Regarding RAF the specific one is BD949

> the scans for the camo pattern will be e-mailed to you as they cannot be posted to this forum.
(they do not have an internet URL and are on my hard-drive.)
can you fix that JP ?

Yes John is it possible to make loading the pictures on the board server or similar? That would make life easier  ;D

BR Audrius


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on November 11, 2005, 02:04:59 AM
Audrius,
the book is listed as "first printing 2004"

I can find BD 942 in the list ,but not BD 949.
please keep in mind this list is for aircraft allocated to the USSR,
it does not have listings for every hurricane ever built.
because it is not in the list it did not go to the Soviet Union.
(but, you knew that already)

it also seems there were 52 Mark IIC's also delivered "extra to protocol"
in replacement for aircraft rejected by the Soviets.


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: exec228 on May 09, 2006, 10:05:04 PM
http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/soviet/hurr2d/hurr2d.html


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on October 26, 2008, 09:11:32 PM
Hello everybody:

In this thread there?s a photo posted by Audrius but all I can see is the white rectangle with the red cross.Is the photo below?
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/th_sovietHurricaneMkIIC.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/?action=view&current=sovietHurricaneMkIIC.jpg)
I think it does as I extracted it from AJ-Press book Monografie Lotnicze part 2,issue 52 page 8.The caption says something of a 486 IAP as Audrius quoted in his message.The plane?s surface reflects to much light but a pair of demarcation lines between colours can be seen over both wings but no red stars.Also,there are what looks like a patch on the tail covering the RAF fin flag and a circle of paint over the RAF roundel in the fuselage.
Best regards.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 29, 2008, 01:35:35 PM
Hi Martin, :)
I think to see the camo lines, the patch and maybe something of a Brititish code, but that is all. Not enough for a model or a profile.
Massimo


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on October 30, 2008, 12:49:25 PM
Hi Massimo:
I think to see the camo lines, the patch and maybe something of a Brititish code, but that is all. Not enough for a model or a profile.
Thanks for your comments.You?re right,I would like to make a MkIIC in soviet service,but this photo is not good enough.What attracted my attention was the fact that this Hurricane has no red stars in the rudder and fuselage.
Best regards:

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIC in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on November 01, 2008, 04:22:09 PM

by the time the IIC was in production 'Day Fighter Finish' (pattern A) was the norm ,so you know what the pattern? and we can make a fair guess as to the colors.
as for the photo itself...the RAF fin flash is definitely painted over (indicating RAF service) but I can't tell if the same was done for the upper-wings. red stars should be visible in these locations but they are not.
the fuselage seems to show part of the RAF serial number and to me seems to end in ...59
I can't tell if there is or was a tail-band - maybe it didn't have one.
as for the fuselage star I would say 'can't tell because some guy's head is is in the way' :) :D
[/color]


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on November 01, 2008, 07:57:05 PM
Hello DGM:

by the time the IIC was in production 'Day Fighter Finish' (pattern A) was the norm ,so you know what the pattern  and we can make a fair guess as to the colors.
[/color]
I?ve checked with Modellers Datafile (SAMI Publications) book about the Hawker Hurricane and this MkIIC has a pattern A as you mentioned but with inverted colours.The Hurris that were sent to the desert had this feature.This is what I see in the photo:
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/th_sovietHurricaneMkIICcolourpattern.jpg) (http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/?action=view&current=sovietHurricaneMkIICcolourpattern.jpg)
 

the fuselage seems to show part of the RAF serial number and to me seems to end in ...59
[/color]
I think it could be ...69 too.


I can't tell if there is or was a tail-band - maybe it didn't have one.
as for the fuselage star I would say 'can't tell because some guy's head is is in the way' :) :D
[/color]
It looks like it has no tail band and that the RAF roundel (and its overpainting) should be behind the head of the soviet guy.The overpainting on the fuselage side is too close to the serial number so it could be covering a RAF squadron code.Probably the MkIIC had a previous RAF service.
Thanks Paul for your contribution.Best regards:

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIC in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on November 02, 2008, 05:53:22 AM

the possibility that this aircraft saw service in the Mediterranean has also occurred to me.
in that case the colors would be Middlestone,Dark Earth and Azure Blue and would also explain why it has no tail-band.
[/color]


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 02, 2008, 09:33:51 PM
Hi, :)
a tropical camo scheme could be a point of high interest for this plane. Unfortunately, probably there is a number on the fuselage, hidden by the man. Without knowing this number, one can't make any modellistic use of this interesting image, in my idea. :-\
Massimo


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on November 03, 2008, 07:25:41 PM
Hello Massimo:
Hi, :)
Without knowing this number, one can't make any modellistic use of this interesting image, in my idea.
I think so;and the serial number is "incomplete" too.
Best regards:

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Graham Boak on February 26, 2010, 08:33:55 PM
It would be surprising if this Mk.IIc had seen previous service, as I understand these were delivered direct to Russia by the Northern Route (ie ships).  I know that some of the Spitfires were delivered via the Southern Route, but haven't heard the same about Hurricanes.  An aircraft in the ME would not have been returned to the UK.  I understood that only some of the early deliveries had seen previous service, as Mk.1s before being converted to Mk.IIs and then allocated to Russia.

I suspect that there is little coverage of the Mk.IIc because they will have gone either to training units or to the PVO.  The four Hispano cannon were very heavy, and adversely affected the Hurricane's handling and performance.  On low octane Russian fuel they would have been unsuitable for front-line combat by the time of their arrival.


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on February 26, 2010, 09:23:46 PM
Hello Graham:

I suspect that there is little coverage of the Mk.IIc because they will have gone either to training units or to the PVO.  The four Hispano cannon were very heavy, and adversely affected the Hurricane's handling and performance.  On low octane Russian fuel they would have been unsuitable for front-line combat by the time of their arrival.

Thanks for sharing with us your point of view regarding this topic.I think that the low number of cannon armed Hurricanes was also a reason for the lack of photos.And what about the supply of 20 mmm amunition for the Hispano cannons? The lack of it could be another reason.
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Graham Boak on February 27, 2010, 12:47:53 PM
Is it possible that the Mk.IIc were converted to Russian armament in the same way that many Mk.IIbs were? So we could be seeing them in photographs without realising it?


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on February 27, 2010, 06:45:59 PM
I?m no expert,but as far as I know,there?s no record of this kind of conversion to a MkIIc.Perhaps,the soviets replaced the Hispano cannons with its own 20 mm weapons,but this is pure speculation.

This is a photo of what looks like a soviet MkIIc;at least to me,the position of the covers are like the ones fitted to the cannon armed Hurricane.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/0_162e7_284a33ab_L.jpg)

Please,let me know what you think of this image.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIC in VVS
Post by: Dark Green Man on March 02, 2010, 01:06:48 AM

I have also thought of the possibility of re-arming it with the 20 mm ShVAK.
those do look like ShVAK rounds on the wing to me.
but, I am no expert in the appearance of British 20 mm rounds.
what say ye?


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on March 02, 2010, 02:53:10 AM
Hello DGM:

I really don?t know if the amunition is british or soviet,but it can be seen what looks like the drum of a Hispano cannon behind the left hand of the first armourer.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on September 28, 2010, 05:40:11 PM
I?m no expert,but as far as I know,there?s no record of this kind of conversion to a MkIIc.Perhaps,the soviets replaced the Hispano cannons with its own 20 mm weapons,but this is pure speculation.

This is a photo of what looks like a soviet MkIIc;at least to me,the position of the covers are like the ones fitted to the cannon armed Hurricane.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/0_162e7_284a33ab_L.jpg)

Please,let me know what you think of this image.Greetings.

Martin

HI, yes, that is  IIC, the gun access panels are the right shape. (rectangular)
The IIC did not use drum magazines, they are belt fed, as per the photo. The circular parts are the shell feeds, which need the wing bulges to cover them.
this photo is in the AJ press "Hurricane in foreign service" captioned.
"sergeants Saplin and Thubanienko  loading 20 mm magazines, 2nd GSAP, 1942"

Anyone know more on the 2nd GSAP?

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold. 

as for other comments
"Is it possible that the Mk.IIc were converted to Russian armament in the same way that many Mk.IIbs were? So we could be seeing them in photographs without realising it?"

Possibly Graham, but I would presume that a IIC coverted to Soviet weapons would have had ShVAK cannon refitted in stead of the Oerlikons, but to fit the VVS Hurricane  standard (1x 20mmShVAK 1 x UBT 12.7) would be quite easy in the 2 cannon wing. 
note, UBT is the Turret specification of the UB gun,
"Continued development resulted in the improved UB which came in three versions: UBK (Kрыльевой, Krylyevoi, for the wings), UBS (Синхронный, Sinkhronniy, Synchronized), and UBT (Турельный, Turelniy, for the turret), with UBS and UBK charged by compressed air."
the next point

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berezin_UB

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShVAK_cannon
there are some specs for the cannon round

note Hispano 20 mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_20_mm_cannon (ignoring the Hurricane IV with 20mm guns...)
"The Hispano fired a 130 g (4.586 oz) 20 mm diameter projectile from a 110 mm (4.331 in) long casing, the whole round weighing 257 g (9.065 oz).[5]  Length of the projectiles vary with type, but are set to variable depth in the casing to produce a total length of 184 mm (7.244 in) regardless of projectile type"


"I have also thought of the possibility of re-arming it with the 20 mm ShVAK.
those do look like ShVAK rounds on the wing to me.
but, I am no expert in the appearance of British 20 mm rounds.
what say ye?"

Also depends on the specification of ShVAK rounds, it might be that it would be possible to use ShVAK rounds in the Hispano, or with minor modifications?   I don't know enough about this, but some links above.

It is quite possible that a IIC regunned with ShVAK cannons would be almost identical visually if you could not the see the ends of the barrels.

these may prove of some use, I'll post the links separately as well. Note that wiki gives lengths, so it is possible to get an idea of  size / scale

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/shkas_aircraft_machinegun/

http://www.primeportal.net/armory/yuri_pasholok/shvak_12.7mm_aircraft_mg/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/shvak_20mm_aircraft_cannon/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/ub_aircraft_machinegun/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/yuri_pasholok/ubt_aircraft_machinegun/

more soon, as both Hurricanes and VVS are areas of special interest to me.
T





Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on September 28, 2010, 06:24:14 PM
Next

according to this site http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/hawker-guide-RW.htm

"Russia (Moscow?)- Hurricane ? ?BM959? One or even two Hurricanes were once at the Moscow Museum - are there any there now - is one of them at Revda?

Russia (Revda) - Hurricane IIc ? ?BM959? Unveiled as a war memorial at Revda, 200 miles from Murmansk in northern Russia on 1st. September 1989. The aircraft had been recovered from a crash site near Lov Ozero on the Kola Peninsula, renovated and placed on a concrete plinth with the inscription ?To the Fighting Brotherhood of the Allies in the struggle against Fascism during WWII and in the memory of the pilots who did not return from combat and who died in the tundra, mountains, lakes and swamps of the Russian North?. The lightly damaged but weather-beaten plane was discovered with a Merlin XX engine, four 20mm canon and a tropical filter. The photo is taken from ?Warbirds Worldwide? journal 30 of September 1994, which includes the story of the recovery of the aircraft.

(http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/PicHur-Revda-2.jpg)

I think I seen somewhere more pictures of this plane. Does anyone have the Warbirds Worldwide issue?  

As BM959 is the famous IIB white wolf/bort 60 shot down by the Finns more info on this airframe would be fascinating.
Problem with recovered Hurricanes, the fabric and wood tends to have rotted away....

more later
T

PS more searching turned up this,

http://forums.diecast-aviation.eu/showthread.php?t=7628&page=4

"According to Aeroplane, the aircraft is a IIB, possibly one of the 151 wing machines, but the Russians removed the MGs and replaced them with four cannons. Regrettably details of the changes made to accommodate them are not provided.

The photograph was taken by Yulian Konstantinov of The Bulgarian Society of Regional Cultural Science Arctic project. He also photographed the engine including the serial number (64307) so presumably he was close enough to get other details. "

(http://i25.tinypic.com/30tlzyd.jpg)

Though these  look like IIC wings, I would guess the confusion is about re-gunned VVS Hurricane's.  the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
Final point worth noting, is that the type of Wing, be it A, B, C or D, attach just outboard of the undercarriage, so a B wing could be replaced by a C wing quite easily.  
There are pics of VVS hurricanes showing mis matched replacement panels if you look.

I'll do more searching later.  


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on September 29, 2010, 06:46:01 AM
Hello Troy:

Thanks for sharing this information.

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold.
 
It could be that the Ocean Grey was overpainted with white paint as a winter finish (at least,only on the fuselage).If you have ""Hurricane in foreign service",please take a look at picture #108,the Hurricane behind the pilot is a Mk.IIc with what looks like the Dark Green overpainted with white.Probably,these cannon armed belong to an IAP that painted their planes in a partial winter camouflage.

Quote from: Troy Smith

the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
You?re right.Perhaps,it could be a recovered Mk.IIc with tropical filter and damaged tail section.Or,if it was one of 151 wing Mk.IIbs,the outer wings were replaced with Mk.IIcs external sections.I think
they tried to represent a well known soviet Hurricane,that?s why the wolf and the serial BM959 were painted on it.

I also have an special interest on Hurricanes in soviet service so I?ll folllow your research.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on September 30, 2010, 04:55:34 AM
hi Martin

Hello Troy:

Thanks for sharing this information.

The AJ press reproduction  shows one unusual detail, that the area behind the cockpit appears quite a lot lighter in tone than the nose panels, compare the lighter camo colour on wing and nose to area with the handhold.
 

"It could be that the Ocean Grey was overpainted with white paint as a winter finish (at least,only on the fuselage).If you have ""Hurricane in foreign service",please take a look at picture #108,the Hurricane behind the pilot is a Mk.IIc with what looks like the Dark Green overpainted with white.Probably,these cannon armed belong to an IAP that painted their planes in a partial winter camouflage."

Glad you spotted this one,
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/desertschemeIICHIFS108.jpg)

Indeed a IIC, but look at the sky, deep blue, and the pilots uniform, looks at least warm!  It is a winter schme in spring it's remarkably pristine! 
I think this is a another desert finish plane, note how this looks like a factory applied paint job, not a roughly applied winter finish.
I did wonder if was in front of an RAF plane, but there looks to be a star painted on. 
note also same pilot, and I presume, plane. At first I thought of winter finish, but look at the minimal panel wear.
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/desertschemeIICHIFS106.jpg)
.  Note that in 1943 IIRC that Hurricane IICs were supplied to the Turkish Airforce from existing RAF middle east stocks.
So not a big jump to see them being supplied to the VVS and then being used in Southern Russia, there are exapmple so Luftwaffe Fw190's in Southern Russia in desert camo too.
One thing I have noticed about VVS photographs, is there are often multiples from the same photo shoot, (there are many exaples of a couple of related pictures I once posted pairs of in the ARC discssion on VVS camo)
I would presume this being the result of official war correspondent assignments. And note far less are private snapshots, due to lack of cameras and also a totalitarian regime strict censorship. An example of this is quoted in Red Stars 4, where it says that pictures of Spitfires from further back PVO units are comparatively rare as these were not so propaganda worthy. 
I will post more shots that i think are of importance or that may be of a sequence. I have noticed that too
often it's only the plane that is concentrated on, as opposed to the entire picture.   

so i wonder if this may be from the same sequence.
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/sovietHurricaneMkIIC.jpg)

It also strikes me that i doubt if I have seen a total photos more than 50 individual Hurricanes in VVS service, our of nearly 3000 planes supplied, so it is difficult to make generalizations, except that RAF camo was retained, and that repainting was limited to removal of RAF markings, and repairs to the fabric covered parts of the airframe.
There are some examples of mismatched metal panels too.   More when I have time. But your pics of bort 92 are a good example, instead of extensive repainting, think mismatched nose and fuselage side panels, and fabric repairs on rear fuselage.  Standard practice was to dope new fabric over damage in the RAF, why would the VVS be different?   This does like quite extensive repairs.   It could be part of a sequencce of pics including
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneII_white92_sovietweapons.jpg)
from "hurricane in Foreign service"
Note pic #109 of bort 14, note recovered front of fin.
pic #107, note mismatched wing!  and doped flare chute behind cockpit.  I though strikes me on these planes, perhaps they had extensive fabric damage delivery, rather than battle damage, would explain extensive recovering?

pic #101 note mismatched gun panels, and looks like it could be from same sequence as bort 14 in #109, note dusty background, and think like a photographer, getting a squadron setting out.
Possibly pic #91, note unusual tail and what looks like white prop blades!
Quote from: Troy Smith

the tail section looks like a replica. (note rudder shape)
Quote
You?re right.Perhaps,it could be a recovered Mk.IIc with tropical filter and damaged tail section.Or,if it was one of 151 wing Mk.IIbs,the outer wings were replaced with Mk.IIcs external sections.I think
they tried to represent a well known soviet Hurricane,that?s why the wolf and the serial BM959 were painted on it.

In the link to the thread i got the colour pic from it said
"How about this one then? OK, not completely white but white and "Tundra". It is displayed at Revda in the Kola Peninsula and painted as BM951 though that is not it's true identity. It is in the markings of Captain Yakovlenko who was shot down and killed in 1941. The scheme is based on photographs of similar Hurricanes.

(Info from Aeroplane 1997).

Several variations of the scheme appear on the Wings Pallette site."

which makes more sense. Anyone here know more about this plane?

No reply as yet about the details of VVS armament fit photos, but will post info when I get it.

it's very late here, time for bed.
cheers
Troy


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: learstang on September 30, 2010, 06:50:38 AM
Nice information on the VVS Hurricanes, Troy!  Always nice to have someone who specialises on a particular VVS plane (my speciality is the IL-2 Shturmovik in case you need to know about that).  With so much misinformation and conflicting information about VVS planes, sometimes it's hard to be a generalist.  Maybe this is a bit off-topic, but since we're talking about the Hurricane - do you have any pictures of the two-seater courier/artillery spotter Hurricane?  That's one I've always fancied doing.

Regards,

Learstang


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on September 30, 2010, 03:38:46 PM
Hello:

...but since we're talking about the Hurricane - do you have any pictures of the two-seater courier/artillery spotter Hurricane?  That's one I've always fancied doing.
Learstang,you can find what youre looking for in this link:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/hurricane2seat/2seat%20in%20service/2seathurricane.htm

Troy,thanks a lot for your research,I can see we have a similar taste for VVS Huriicanes as you show many of the pictures that I?m interested.

Regarding Mk.IIc?s...
Quote
Indeed a IIC, but look at the sky, deep blue, and the pilots uniform, looks at least warm!  It is a winter schme in spring it's remarkably pristine!
I think this is a another desert finish plane, note how this looks like a factory applied paint job, not a roughly applied winter finish.
I did wonder if was in front of an RAF plane, but there looks to be a star painted on.
Yes,it?s not winter season at all.Despite the fact that the paint is not worn and looks like factory applied,I don?t think this Hurri is painted in a desert scheme because the contrast between both colours is too high.I?ve seen photos of desert Hurricanes and the difference between Dark Earth and Middlestone is not that high.I could be that the white paint was well applied and lasted till the spring season.
Behind the point of the red star (right lower corner of the picture) is what looks like te overpainting of the RAF roundel.

Quote
...note also same pilot, and I presume, plane. At first I thought of winter finish, but look at the minimal panel wear.
You make me notice it,is the same pilot and plane.I?m still thinking the colour is white because is too light to be Dark Earth.

Regarding the other pictures (that are not of MkIIc?s),I?ll make a new thread with my comments because you?ve found many interesting features.
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: learstang on September 30, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
Thank you for the link, Martin!  And on this very site.

Regards,

Learstang


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: Troy Smith on October 01, 2010, 08:05:22 PM
Hello:

...but since we're talking about the Hurricane - do you have any pictures of the two-seater courier/artillery spotter Hurricane?  That's one I've always fancied doing.
Learstang,you can find what youre looking for in this link:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/hurricane2seat/2seat%20in%20service/2seathurricane.htm

Troy,thanks a lot for your research,I can see we have a similar taste for VVS Huriicanes as you show many of the pictures that I?m interested.

Regarding Mk.IIc?s...
Quote
Indeed a IIC, but look at the sky, deep blue, and the pilots uniform, looks at least warm!  It is a winter scheme in spring it's remarkably pristine!
I think this is a another desert finish plane, note how this looks like a factory applied paint job, not a roughly applied winter finish.
I did wonder if was in front of an RAF plane, but there looks to be a star painted on.
Yes,it?s not winter season at all.Despite the fact that the paint is not worn and looks like factory applied,I don?t think this Hurri is painted in a desert scheme because the contrast between both colours is too high.I?ve seen photos of desert Hurricanes and the difference between Dark Earth and Middlestone is not that high.I could be that the white paint was well applied and lasted till the spring season.
Behind the point of the red star (right lower corner of the picture) is what looks like the overpainting of the RAF roundel.

Quote
...note also same pilot, and I presume, plane. At first I thought of winter finish, but look at the minimal panel wear.
You make me notice it,is the same pilot and plane.I?m still thinking the colour is white because is too light to be Dark Earth.

The light colour would not be dark earth, but middlestone, and is in the area that would be dark green. The darker colour would be dark earth. 
the appearance can vary depending on light, weathering and camera filters.  Like this below. Note that the roundels are dark, and the colour of trees and fields below. Also note replaced panel beneath cockpit from non- desert finished plane. 

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Hawker_Hurricane_Mark_IV.jpg)

and in the desert. The colours did bleach out.
 
(http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/marse1.jpg)

I just think the application is too neat and tidy, say compared to these.  Note AFAIK these are the only pictures I have seen of winter camouflaged VVS Hurricanes.  (or any Hurricane, the only mainly white ones I now are Sea Hurricanes in an Anti Submarine scheme)

(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/HuricanesVVSwinterschemejpg.jpg)


Quote
Regarding the other pictures (that are not of MkIIc?s),I?ll make a new thread with my comments because you?ve found many interesting features.
Greetings.

Martin

look forward to this.  Check my posting on the 2 seater you link too above, as this got discussed on Hyperscale a while back, made some comments on this which I will post here.

cheers
Troy


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: learstang on October 02, 2010, 12:49:16 AM
Interesting pictures of Hurricanes with the winter camouflage and the Soviet armament (2 ShVAK's and 2 UBS's).  I might have to add these to my to-do list of VVS planes.

Regards,

Learstang


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: marluc on October 02, 2010, 06:35:50 AM
Hello Troy:

Great presentation and good research.

...the appearance can vary depending on light, weathering and camera filters.  Like this below. Note that the roundels are dark, and the colour of trees and fields below. Also note replaced panel beneath cockpit from non- desert finished plane.
 I agree,the appearance can vary a lot;but at least to my eyes,the desert finished Hurricane shows a low contrast between the upper colours,just the opposite of what can be seen in the picture of the VVS MkIIc.

I just think the application is too neat and tidy, say compared to these.  Note AFAIK these are the only pictures I have seen of winter camouflaged VVS Hurricanes. 
I?ve been thinking that perhaps,it looks neat and tidy because the light reflection on the white made it too bright for the camera to show the wear of the winter finish.

Photos of another white Hurricane:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/WhiteRusskieHurri001.jpg)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/WhiteRusskieHurri002.jpg)

It?s really hard to make an accurate interpretation of an aircraft?s colour scheme from a black and white picture.I think that your interpretation of a desert MkIIc in soviet markings is a good possibility.
Thanks for sharing your point of view,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Hurricane IIc in VVS
Post by: John Thompson on November 11, 2010, 11:33:58 PM
New 1/72 VVS Hurricane decals from Authentic:

http://www.modelimex.com/detail/decals/1-72/1-72-hawker-hurricane-iib-in-the-russian-sky

John