Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lavochkins => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on November 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM



Title: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM
Hi all,
I've updated the LaGG-3 page
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/lagg3.html)
Apart for some restyling, the main news is the addition of 3 new pages with photos and profiles:

LaGG-3s series 60/70 of 926 IAP
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/932lprt.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/georgia.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/georgia/georgia.html)

LaGG-3 'white 38' series 60/70, probably 129 IAP in 1943 (the unit of Popkov)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/38arrow-rprt.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/curvedarrow.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/curvedarrow/curvedarrow.html)

Lagg-3s series 60-70 of 9 IAP-ChF and other units in 1944
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap-t.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html)

Please, let me know any comments.
Regads
Massimo




Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2017, 08:10:42 AM
Hi,
I've made some updates to the previous pages; the page http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/9iap.html) now includes profiles and photos of planes of other units operating on the Southern front, as 88 iap. Here is one:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/9iap/41lpr.jpg)
These updates were made with the help of A. Ruckovsky.

Besides I've uploaded a page with profiles and photos of I-301 prototype.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301t.jpg)
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/i-301/i-301.htm)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 06, 2017, 10:13:14 AM
Hi,
I'm working on a page about pre-war LaGG-3s.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm)
Here is one, built in Zavod 31, one of 28 planes with spring 1941 camouflage:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/3shadescamo.jpg)
Another plane of Zavod 31:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/272130fr.jpg)
this was already drawn on Aviakollectsia, the light color being represented as silver, likely enough as it protected the underlying materials against UV rays
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273130lpr.jpg)
but it is also possible that planes were still in yellow primer/putty
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273130ylpr.jpg)

Is there any suggestion to decide the thing?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on December 06, 2017, 12:11:06 PM
Hi Massimo,
very nice picture. However, why do you use "cherry red"? What color exactly it should be? I did not find it at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html).
IMHO:
- it should be paint set for planes to have specific properties, standard paint let's say for cars would not be good,
- it was used on prototypes to be well visible during trials on the air and on the ground - standard red (AIIkr or A-13) for me seems to be more practical/probable than relatively dark "cherry red".
- standard red color could look quite dark on the photos, depending on the used film material and filter:
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/LaGG-3/Lavochkin-LaGG-3/images/Lavochkin-LaGG-3-GvIAP-USSR-1942-01.jpg)
(http://ram-home.com/ram-old/105-2-tomasheinz.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 06, 2017, 02:59:17 PM
Hi Misos,
I agree that a standard red could have given the same look with the proper film.
Anyway there are at least two cases where dark reds (different) were found on pieces: one is the 'moskva', sort of DB-3 utilized for a demonstrative flight to USA , that was partially painted red, partially dark red (few bw photos show the difference); another one is the color of the MiG-3 red 1 whose pieces are preserved in Finland.  I've choosen dark red in this case as a guess. Of course, I'm always ready to change it in case that new information should emerge.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Johann on December 06, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
Hi,
I'm working on a page about pre-war LaGG-3s.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/prewar.htm)
Here is one, built in Zavod 31, one of 28 planes with spring 1941 camouflage:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/3shadescamo.jpg)

Тricolor color was at the plant No. 21 in Gorky


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on December 06, 2017, 04:43:32 PM
Hi Massimo,
yes, I know about those two examples, but they vere not prototypes during trials.

Here http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/index.htm (http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/index.htm) is another example of the standard red surface - prototype Polikarpov I-17:
(http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/polikarpov/i-17/vf_i-17_06.jpg)
(http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Names_Never/tskb19.jpg)

Yakovlev AIR-7
(http://airspot.ru/catalogue_image/filename/3394/air7-i.jpg)
(http://www.sovplane.ru/foto/air7.jpg)
usual interpretation:
(http://www.spaceavia.ru/big/item_2273.jpg)

Yakovlev AIP-12:
(http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/0.AIR-12.jpg)
usual interpetation:
(http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/7.AIR-12.-Risunok..jpg)


EDIT:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/3121321f.jpg)
This photo shows that:
- there is a dark surface (color/primer...?) under the light painting at the wing leading edge and under the scratches,
- air intake at the wing root and part of the leading edge looks like painted with glossy/metallic color, while the rest is different darker matt color (exposed primer after final painting was worn-out?),
- light color on the surface does not look very much like metallic Alluminium color, compare reflections&shining to this LaGG-3:
  (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/silver/red46f1r.jpg)
- note the different color of the metal plate on the wing leading edge on the right,
- for primer I would use more ocher shade like here:
  (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/mark-colors/plainstar1.jpg)
I would not be surprised, if it was painted in standard red & yellow color ???

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
Hi,
Quote
Тricolor color was at the plant No. 21 in Gorky
you're right, I have to make some order.

Quote
yes, I know about those two examples, but they vere not prototypes during trials.
You're right about these prototypes. But, about I-301, there is one more consideration. Some reports describe the plane as finished in VIAM B-3 resin, that was red brown or dark red. Now, photos show that the plane was painted in uniform color on the metallic parts too, and it is unlikely that this glue could be utilized to paint metal; so, it was likely painted with some shade of red or red brown or dark red, that are undistinguishable in photos.
I can suppose that someone could have equivocated his description, if the shade of red was comparable with that of the resin. So i prefer to mantain the dark red shade.

Quote
This photo shows that:
- there is a dark surface (color/primer...?) under the light painting at the wing leading edge and under the scratches,
- air intake at the wing root and part of the leading edge looks like painted with glossy/metallic color, while the rest is different darker matt color (exposed primer after final painting was worn-out?),
- light color on the surface does not look very much like metallic Alluminium color,
- note the different color of the metal plate on the wing leading edge on the right,

These are interesting observations. I thought that the color of the air intake was unpainted metal. but the drawings don't show a coincidence between the panel lines and the silver area. So it was likely painted on.
Dark parts on the leading edge seem scratches, but could also be some adhering earth. I agree that the remainng part is not shining.
According to informations from Averin, this should be a grey-silver mixed in the factory itself. And another complication: this plane is of Z.21, while the nearly identical but marked plane of the profile is of Z.31. Were them painted in the same way? i think so, but...

Another thing: here are photos of another plane of Z.21, probably built before the three-shaded one; I thought that it was an example of green/blue typical prewar plane, but looking closely at the photo, it seems that it could be camouflaged with something scarcely contrasting.
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z31fa.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z21fc.jpg)
Regards
Massimo

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on December 07, 2017, 01:39:13 PM
Hi Massimo,

...Some reports describe the plane as finished in VIAM B-3 resin, that was red brown or dark red...
VIAM B3 was glue to connect wooden material and it could look like this inside of the preserved MiG-3:
(http://scalemodels.ru/images/2017/01/1483789086_mig3_4.jpg)
The dark surface on LaGG-3 is metal and looks homogenous, very different from this MiG-3 interior, so the most probable it is painted with some relevat paint for planes. The only question is the color of that paint. And due to the reasons described in my previous post my personal prefference is standard red color. Of course, your prefference can be different.

Lightgrey & silver mix looks like probable, realistic option.

Then it could look like this 1-153 http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2307.msg19947#msg19947 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2307.msg19947#msg19947) with ocher yellow ALG-1 partially visible under the worn-out light(grey) color on some exposed surfaces like wing roots etc.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2017, 03:31:31 PM
Hi Misos, good photo.
Are you sure that the glue employed is the same both for Lavochkins and MiGs? I would understand better what delta-wood is .
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on December 07, 2017, 05:04:53 PM
Hi Massimo,

according to the www.yandex.ru (http://www.yandex.ru) delta-wood (дельта древесина) is plywood sheathing and bakelite ply, it could look like this:

(http://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/2016/02/12/9/1455290724120373090.jpg)

(http://rubankom.com/wp-content/uploads/bakelitovaya-drevesno-sloistaya-plita-fbs.jpg)

I have comment info at scalemodels.ru: "I-301 is now drawn in nice red wine color. But in those timee they painted it with color close to (dark) brown."

"The prototype of the new I-301 fighter was painted with resin varnish No. 1, which was the same as VIAM B-3 glue, only of a more liquid consistency, and consisted of a phenolphaldehyde resin, acid hardener and ethyl alcohol or acetone. If such a varnish was used without a dye, then it gave a firm coating of red-brown or dark-cherry color. To reduce the resistance, it was polished."


Another nice photo of I-301 (LaGG-1):
(http://chkalov-tm.ru/wa-data/public/blog/img/3_01_1.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2017, 06:29:48 PM
Hi Misos,
thank you for the images and informations.
For what I see, Viam B-3 hasn't pigment to hide the texture of the wood.I don't think that it could have covered the whole plane, including the metallic parts, in such way.
Of course, the metallic parts could have been painted with red brown primer, but is it possible that the resulting plane was so uniform?

The photo of the plane is very nice, but I don't think that it was a prototype. According to Y.Gordon, that plane could be the first LaGG-3 built in Z.21. I think that this plane had aluminium prop and cowling and yellowish surfaces; I don't think that it was flown in this way. The metallic parts of the landing gear could be primed in yellow zinc chromate.
The yellowish putty appears in photos in different ways.
MiG-3:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/internal-colors-primers/mig3rearfus.jpg)
LaGG-3:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/internal-colors-primers/lagg3skin.jpg)

who knows if it is the same color?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on December 07, 2017, 09:44:00 PM
Hi Massimo,
I would say yes, or very similar. Compare also those green colors - simple different photos.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 09, 2017, 05:07:43 PM
Hi all,
the page on prewar LaGG-3 was extended; I think it's all for now, unless new informations appear.
Some new profiles, although not too fascinating.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/z21early.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/sh37len3-lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/273159lpr.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/prewar/11early.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: PG monster on January 15, 2018, 06:38:05 AM
Great job!


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 01, 2018, 10:42:55 PM
Hi,
I've updated the page on Galchenko's LaGG-3 taking into account the  images found by Misos and the progress in our knowledge of Soviet wartime colors.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko.html)

Some samples:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1pl.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko3pl.jpg)

Please, let me know your comments.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on July 02, 2018, 11:41:02 AM
Hi Massimo,

very nice. However, I have some notes:

1.) Black area just behind propeller is much wider on photos than on your profile and right side of the neiborough green area has different shape:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/Lagg3%20Galchenko%20with%20stars.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galchenko2w.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko1pl.jpg)

2.) Check green area at horiz. stabilizer root on this photo:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/gala-him1.jpg)
It is different from your picture:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2above.jpg)

3.) brighter oval areas over hinges are bigger than on your profiles:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2pl.jpg)

plus rudder trim tab (see arrow) on the right side is brighter than surrounding area:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/trimtab.jpg)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenko2pr.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 02, 2018, 02:17:58 PM
Thank you Misos.
Do you think that the lighter parts o the rudder could have been painted  red?
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: 66misos on July 02, 2018, 03:17:13 PM
Hi Massimo,
I have tendency to make colors on the planes low vis and as simple as possible, especially for planes from that time. Galchenko removed big red stars from his plane. Why would he added something else red on his plane?
I would say it was repainted by some sort of green, or mixture black&ALG-1. It is visible on the several screenshots, so it is not a defect on one particular photo.
However, it is visible only (on the left side) on the winter photo, not on the right side on the summer photos. So it was there problaly only during a short time period and it disappeared when winter camo was overpainted.

May be it would be good to check the sentence of the photos. It is apparent that black and dark green blotches changed their appearance during the time.

Here the lighter area on the horiz. stab reaches only to front edge of the rudder:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galachenkoallm2r.jpg) (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galacatblr.jpg)

while here it reaches much further and hat different shape:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/gala-him1.jpg)

Regarding the winter camo - two white blotches on the left wing I would move now (especially that bottom one) more to the right, closer to the wing root to align them with the black/green area, not leave them like in my original picture:
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t518/66misos/LaGG-3/Galchenko16a.jpg)
more like here:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/galachenko/galchenko2w.jpg)

Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 03, 2018, 06:52:16 PM
Hi all,
I've updated the page on LaGG-3s with a small page on the last LaGGs: I-105 and I-105-2.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105.html)

Some samples:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105-1-lpr.jpg)


(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/105/105-2-lpr.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on July 08, 2018, 09:29:46 PM
Hi,
I've updated the page on Galchenko again.
I've made small modifications to the camouflage on some drawings.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 04, 2018, 07:10:58 PM
Hi,
I've made a small page with a profile of the plane of Yegorov.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth156iap.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth156iap.html)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/sharkmouth156iap/sharkmouth-lpr.jpg)

I know that the 12 is based on weak evidence.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: learstang on August 10, 2018, 07:00:35 PM
Nice work on those Lavochkins, Massimo!

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: PG monster on September 03, 2018, 08:14:12 AM

I know that the 12 is based on weak evidence.



The soviet regiments commanders often used "cool" numbers like 1, 01, 100 ...


Title: Re: Updates to the LaGG-3 page
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on September 03, 2018, 09:02:32 PM
Hi,
this is possible, but all what the photo shows seems the top of a 12.
Regards
Massimo