Sovietwarplanes

Hi,
while searching and collecting data for Yaks profiles I have found several pictures of interesting wavy camouflage.
Some authors interpret them as black-green, others interpret them as already grey-grey.

Colors on this Yak-9 are completly different from green MiG-3 and Il-2 in the background:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369166)

Another one, Yak-7B late, too bright for black-green, even on the bright snowy environment:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369176)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371378)

According to the http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color4.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color4.html) Yak-1B late, interpreted there as black-green:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369177)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371427)

Another very similar wavy camo, same number "22" but color completly different from red star - problably yellow and attempt for already new type of the red star introduced in summer 1943:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369178)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371374)

And what about this red-nose Yak-9 dated on March 1943 - black-green or grey-grey? At airfield.naror.ru interpreted as black green:
(http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/photo_yak-9_14-1.jpg)
(http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/photo_yak-9_14-2.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
you've made a very interesting work.
About plane 8, I can't be sure but I suspect a tiny black outline around the white shape. Besides the white cap should be cut oblique, not parallel to the flight axis; stars and wings are too much rotated.
The shape of the cooler's outlet doesn't fit with the profile.
The landing gear seems to have a sort of door or cover solidal to the leg.  I've the impression that the light on the wing should be more backwards, and the red star under the wings in an inner position.
About the second plane 22, I've the impression that the number could be silver, not yellow, because it seems shiny on its upper part and darker in its lower part.
Plane 08 has most interesting markings, but it is of very difficult interpretation. The nose seems lighter than the red star. Probably there is another number under the 08, overpainted with a blotch of camo color. I think that the camouflage is grey.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Misos,
I would add:
-the lip around the exhaust tubes of n.8 should be removed;
-the mast shold be bended backwards;
-the swastikas should be a bit made narrower and moved upwards, so a major white space appears on the sheet;
-the shet itself could be made a bit narrower and far from the hatch;
-the stencil on the hatch could be moved a bit upwards;
- the camo near the windshield and the 3rd exhaust pipe should be revised.

About both planes 22, I see no lip around the exhaust stacks, only a rectangle with different shade.  Both numbers 22 should be extended downwards. Both have the mast bent rearwards.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for comments. Seems quite a significat reqork is ahead.
I took templates for Yak-7B late that I already have. But these plane looks like mix of sevral types, at least "red 8" - exhaust is like from Yak-1, (water) cooler like from Yak-9. Seems hatch was positioned not very correctly at line draving. I adjusted camouflage, marking and decoration to the overal shapes. Seems some details like hatch were not positioned very well on the line drawing. It I move white sheet far from hatch then it will not fit with camo, cockpit, star etc. so I leave it where it is. I do not see dark outline arounf number 8, maybe som jpg artifacts.
Regarding "yellow 22" - it is really hard to guess the color. It is not shining. Even its lightest upper part is darker that white outline on the star. IMHO it is not silver. Neither white nor red when compared to the red star. Other usual color were yellow and light blue - my choice was yellow.
All planes seems to have exhausts like Yak-1, they all have the antenna mast bended backwards, they all have similar/same camouflage. Do they all have also Yak-9-like bottom (water) cooler, like on "red 8"?
I will rework all other noted discrepancies step by step when I have time and then I will replace those profiles.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I see the complexity of the work.
About the black outline, i meant that they were around the White wings, not around the number. I don't see them around other light part of the photo, so I don't think that they are jpg artifacts.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
Red 8 is corrected according to your comments and profile is already replaced in my post above.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos, well made.  I hope to see the definitive version of both 22 soon, and maybe plane 08, with a colored nose (orange?).
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
all 3 profiles in my previous post are corrected and already replaced.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
work in progress on Yak-9 red-nose white 08:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1372037)
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I suggest to use a lighter shade of red than the one of red stars to fit the photo.  The reflection on the nose is particularly well made.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you :)
IMHO the red color on the nose is the same like on the star but pretty polished and glossy. Sharp demarcation line, e.g. reflection of the horizont is clearly visible especially on the bottom photo. I would say that lighter shade is only reflection of the bright sky.

According to http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/coment_yak-9_14.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/coment_yak-9_14.html):
"Nine Yak-9 aircrafts, previously owned by the Air Force Inspectorate, were put into service by one squadron of 32 GvIAP on February 9, 1943, along with a group of pilots from the disbanded Inspectorate (also appointed by the commander of the 32nd GVIAP V.I.Stalin). In the arsenal of the remaining squadrons remained aircraft Yak-1B. By order of Vasily Stalin they painted inscriptions "For Volodya!" on the sides of the planes in memory of the deceased pilot of the regiment Vladimir Mikoyan. The aircrafts arrived at the airfield of Staraya Toropa on February 9, 1943... regiment flew to Ostashkov on March 23, (1943) where it left its aircrafts and was relocated to Lyubertsy to replenish its personnel and re-equip it to La-5."
According to that text those photos show aircraft sometime between Fer 9, 1943 and Mar 23, 1943, AFAIK too early for grey-grey colors.

According to http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-7/color_d/coment_yak-7_59.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-7/color_d/coment_yak-7_59.html)
"Directly at the front brigade of OKB AS. Yakovleva they worked to improve the view back from the cabin of Yak-7 M-105PF - they cut off the top rear fuselage and the lantern was  drop-shaped. From November 17 to December 13, 1942 at the Northwestern Front in 42 iap (commander F.I. Shinkarenko) of 240 IAD military tests were conducted for combat use.
Results of the tests: 242 sorties, 6 air battles, 4 enemy planes were shot down, including: Bf-109F-2, Hs-126-1 and FW-189-1; their losses - one Yak-7B. The cockpit with improved visibility was praised by the pilots and was recommended for use on all fighter-type aircraft."
So Red 8 (the profile in my post from Jan 14) is dated to even earlier period - winter 1942.
Seems I should rework borh Red 8 and White 08 to black-green camo. ??? It least the whole serie will be more colorfull.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
perhaps you know already my point on these planes, but I'll write it again.
In my opinion if these planes appear identical to a Yak-9 that is often described as the prototype of all grey-grey Soviet planes in spring 1943, it is because they were really identical.
All the planes with wavy camouflage, Yak-1, 7 and 9, were not produced in Zavod 115, but passed in that laboratory for maintenance or to be transformed into prototypes or special variants.
The choice of adopting a grey-grey camouflage was not strictly military but logistic, because of the lack of green pigments. So, a laboratory that was strictly bonded to the deputy minister for aircraft production, Yakovlev, could easily have been instructed to experiment grey-grey camouflage before it became a standard.
The use of blue on the sides is not compatible with a camouflage that hides  planes on the ground, but when flying and seen on the horizon.
The Yak-9 of the Yakovlev museum, before being vandalized by those that bought it, was painted in two greys, and that museum was famous for having planes painted in accurate way  (for Russian standards).
So I suggest not to change color to those drawings.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for clarification, you saved me a lot of time. ;)
Here is finished profile:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1372583)
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
good work again. I'm happy that your profiles preserve their camouflage.
Regards
Massimo

This last one is very cool!
Xan

superb!

Hi Misos,
I've asked to Orlov (via Maciej) about the use of greys in 1942 by Z.115.
He answered that he can't say, he hasn't studied the thing but it can't be excluded the use of colors different from AMT-4/6, but shades could be different from those of 1943, AMT-11/12.
Personally I continue to think that they were mix of AMT-7 and black, and AMT-11 and 12 were copied from these mix.
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
thank you for comments, I am glad you like them.
Massimo, interesting info, thanks.
Regards,
   66misos

Perhasps too late, but I have to note : the grey camo was intoduced by the same order with the outlined stars (sept. 1943). The photo of winter 42/43. So there are 2 reasons for the green/black camo.

Hi,
the order to paint All the fighters in grey-grey was of summer 1943, but planes as this one, elaborated in Z.115, can be seen since late 1942.
These planes are identical, in contrast and pattern, to the Yak-9 that is described as the prototype of grey-grey fighters by Orlov in spring 1943 (perhaps it was the very same plane); being identical, all them have to be painted in greys.
Zavod 115 made both maintenance of planes built from different factories, both elaborations into different prototypes.  The lack of green pigments was felt in 1942/43, so the factory elaborated a new experimental camouflage since late 1942, official tests comparing grey-grey and green-black-brown camouflages were made in spring 1943, then the order to change the standard camouflage was issued in the summer.
After that date, the pattern of Z.115 was replaced nearly ever with the new NKAP one even on prototypes; only few photos of planes built later show this pattern again.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
it seems transition from black-green to grey-grey camo https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html (https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html) happened in several steps.

1. At the very beginning (1942/43) the wavy camoflage with light blue painted high on sides of the fuselage - at this photo is MiG-3 in foreground, next one is Yak-7B late "27" and behind it is Yak-7A "03" "Novosibisrskij Komsomolets". Shade of grey are on all planes the same, so also Yak-7B "27" could have wavy black-green camo:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1586903)

2. from beginning od 1943 there are eamples of wavy camo, shades of which are significantly different from black-green, e.g. it could be wavy grey-grey camo.
Yak-9 from April 1943:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9-niivvs-r.jpg)
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9testcamo.jpg)

or these Yak-9 - wavy camouflage is significantly brighter than original blac-green, e.g. it could be wavy grey-grey camo:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/greygreyserpentineconc.jpg)

3. Then there is grey-grey camo with light blue high on the sides, but generally already nicely resemble NKAP 1943 grey-grey standard for fighter - Yak-3:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak3/yak3exp.jpg)

4. Finally grey-grey camo according to NKAP-1943:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9-angular.jpg)

regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
this theme is very interesting.
By the way, look at the different shade of the red stars of plane 27 and  83 on the same photo and under the same light.
Particularly dark stars appear on many planes with wavy camouflage, but one can think that this was the filter or the film to show red so dark.
The comparison on this photo let me suspect that the difference in the shade of red was real.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

AFAIK there were two red paint - AIIk (krasnyj = red) Nitrocellulosic lacquer and A-13 Oil enamel.
They probably had different appearance on the bw films (one looks a bit darker on the same photo). As an example see one victory starlet darker than others on the Klubov's Cobra:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/klubov/Pict13.jpg)

Other thing is different appearance of the same aircraft on the different photos due to different photo material and filters https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/57/white57.html (https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/57/white57.html):
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/57/white57f5.jpg)
vs.
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lagg3/57/white57f8r.jpg)

Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
I made some picks with Photoshop, and the difference in darkness is low, about 4%. Probably it looks stronger because of the higher contrast with the white outline.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here I made a profile of late Yak-7B from 12 giap Moscow PVO. I decided for black-green camo, because photo should be from the beginning of 1943 and camouflage shades look identical with shades of the black-green camouflage on the other planes:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589241)

Here are source photos:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589242)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589244)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589243)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
here is Yak-1B from 652 iap PVO:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589268)

and source photo:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589264)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
 I am in doubt on plane 27, but plane 22 is obviously very light on photo, I don't think that the profile is right.
Besides the star and the number should be moved a bit down.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. To be honest, I am also not 100% sure about colors.

With White 27 I have I pretty strong tendency to believe that it was black-green. Size and position of the red stars and board number was achieved by superposition od the semitransparent layer with the photo.

With Red 22 I am far not so convinced as with White 22. Yes, there are argument for both black-green and grey-grey. At least we have both alternatives:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371427)

I work on Yak-9 with grey-grey prototype of the camouflage. It will be surely grey-grey.
Seems it had rounded wing tips like Yak-7, not like late Yak-9xx:
(https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9testcamo.jpg)
(https://coollib.com/i/5/261705/pic_16.jpg)
source https://coollib.com/b/261705/read (https://coollib.com/b/261705/read)
regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
red 22 is much better now. Just I would lower the star and number, look at the distance between the upper and lower profile of the fuselage.

About the Yak-9, my guess is for angular wings, it is visible on the left where the leading edge arrives straight up to the light.

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
thank you. I would say red 22 is OK, check horizontal part of the side arms of the star vs. panel line below cockpit. Or, may be, both star and number should be a bit bigger. I do not know.

Regarding that Yak-9 - that prototype camouflage was presented in April 1943. Yak-9 was produced from October 1942 to August 1943. If that Yak-9 was new, then it was produced in the second half of the production, so probably not considered as early series with the rounded wing tips.

regards,
   66misos

Hi, there is an art on the 22 board: http://ava.org.ru/iap/562.htm
Probably a soldier with the guard sign killing a leopard.

That's right! And an arrow around the exhaust pipes!
Regards
Massimo

Hi PG_monster, thank for that link!
I played with those photos and yea, that's right! And an arrow (red with black outline?) around the exhaust pipes:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589918)
Pitty that the guy sitting on the wing partially covers the picture :(

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1589919)
Also note that triangular shape behind vertical vent opening behind the arrow ???

Regards,
   66misos

I almost havn't something to add. A veteran of the regiment once said some planes had a bort art as a devil like Kaslin-town cast statuette, other planes as a leopard.
Kalsin metal devil of my childhood: (https://cache3.youla.io/files/images/720_720_out/5c/64/5c6442402c593e239250cd72.jpg)

Hi,
here is a profile of Yak-9 with the prototype of grey-grey camouflage, with which Yakovlev experimented from beginning 1943.
More at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1591939)

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1591928)

and photos of the original:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9-niivvs-r.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9testcamo.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos

Hi,
back to Red 22 with soldier fighting leopard - WIP so far:

(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1592322)

This is what I was able to identify. Everything else will be pure what-if...
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I think that the soldier should be on his knees and keep the beast for its throat with the left hand. Else, the position doesn't make sense.
Regards
Massimo

My thoughts on this are both arms of the man are bent at the elbows and are in front of his chest. He has gloves on so you cant see his hands or fists I think the hands are clenched holding a net that is only partially restraining the Panther?  The multiple lines that seem to come from his hands through the space between the Panther look to me to be a net?
Agreed he is on both knees.

(https://i.imgur.com/GazUhwEh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aVTBQ45h.png)

Hi,
I've made an effort to find a position that makes sense. I think to see a thing over the head of the hunter, probably his left arm keeping the right rear leg of the panther, this would justify why its basin is so high.
The hunter has to be on his own knees, that are visible. Few doubts on how his legs are.  The right hand of the hunter isn't cleary recognizable, but could pass aside the front arms of the panther with a knife. It certainly won't go in front of its mouth.  There is something that could resemble the hand of the man somewhat above, but it is probably the arm of the panther, it can't be that the painter overposed them, besides this would led to a short arm of the man.


(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak1/panther.jpg)

I hope this helps.
Regards
Massimo

That is a very well done interpretation of the artwork.

Hi all,
two profiles of Yak-9 with wavy camouflage of Misos have been added to the Yak-9 profiles page.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak9/misos/profiles.htm (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak9/misos/profiles.htm)
Massimo

Hi All,
pretty nice brainstorming about that picture. I appreciate your help.
I tried to make both photos more clear and put them together:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1593242)
Massimo, I also noticed that dark strip above soldier - his left hand catching panther's leg is an interesting idea.
Regarding soldier - I thought about a different position - left leg on the knee but the right leg moreless straight and more to side, giving soldier more stability. His right arm not straight but his fist in front of his chest, holding something long and sharp - it hits panther to his throat. And panther protecting himself with both front legs holding soldier's right fist.
I will try to paint it. I already had several attempts, but not satisfied with them.
So in the meantime I complete articles about Yaks with wavy camouflage for Massimo's page.
Regards,
   66misos

Hi Misos,
I think to see two knees in the photo.
The idea of the big blade is likely, it would explain the line to the throat of the panther.
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
here is finished Yak-1b Red 22:

EDIT: Updated picture on May 17:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1594132)

Regards,
  66misos

Excellent !  :)

Hi Misos,
looks convincing. Only, I don't understand well if the visible leg is the right or the left one.
Regards
Massimo

Hi All,
thank you for comments.
@Massimo, I was not fully satisfied with it, I slightly reworked that leg - it should be the right one. ;)
Plus I added more shining and shadows to the plane.
Regards,
   66misos

Profile is looking good.

Hi All,
thanks for comments. I am glad you like it.
Regards,
   66misos

Great art! But M.Timin said there should br green+black camo.

Hi PG monster,
which one do you mean? Yak-9 with the prototype camouflage or Yak-1 with artwork - soldier fighting with panther?
Regards,
  66misos

Hi PG monster,
we have explained the reasons for which we think that the planes were grey.
Apart for the recent threads of Misos that has exposed it in brief way and clearly, it was discussed before more in detail here: http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1085.0 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1085.0)

Regards
Massimo

Hi,
in this case grey-grey camouflage seems to be more probable. However, it is not carved to the stone, is is not confirmed by archive documents.

So here is an alternative for the fans of black-green camo:
(https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1596151)

Regards,
  66misos

Hi Misos,
for those that choose to ignore that the plane  in the photos appears much lighter than the grass on the ground...
Regards
Massimo

Thank you. Sorry my criticism, 1 more thing:
those two holes (over the red arrow) shouldn't exist at Yak-1B. The are of the early  Yak-1.

http://armedman.ru/samoletyi/1937-1945-samoletyi/istrebitel-yak-1.html

(http://www.hobbyport.ru/mkmagazin/avia/yak_1_2.gif)

And I think "yellow 22" is  the same plane. Most probably the white outline applied (surely by stencil-plate) after the order of september 1943.

Hi PG monster,
thank you for comments. Every correction is welcome. I will correct this one and next planes. I am not going to correct all previous profiles, to much time and work.
Regards,
   66misos

I tried to close those holes. Excuse me, I'm not an artist, so the result could be better.

https://imgur.com/rNAFjTU

(https://imgur.com/rNAFjTU)

(https://i.imgur.com/rNAFjTU.jpg)

http://ava.org.ru/iap/562.htm
1 more photo of this bird added.

Hi,
it's an excellent page, but I see that plane n.40 is described as Yak-1b on one photo and Yak-9 in the following one. It is the very same plane, all visible details match, and surely a Yak-1b.
Regards
Massimo

Thank you, I'll correct that.

H everybody. ,
The port side of this red 22 Yak is interesting with the arrow and the figure,but what about the starboard side ???
 I have never seen such stars. 

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/562/yak1b_22-1944-summer.jpg)

Regards
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
the white outline was made by a stencil over a red base. I think that this is a repainting over a fully red star.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
What surpises me is that the red lines due to the stencil were not overpainted in white. Furthermore,  the starboard side has plain red stars. May be this photo was taken after August 43 and the others before.
Interesting to make an non common  decoration.
Regards
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
probably the n.22 with the painting, seen from the other side, is another plane. Anyway, it's likely that this 22 had plain stars in another timeframe.
Regards
Massimo