Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Yaks => Topic started by: 66misos on January 13, 2018, 05:07:19 PM



Title: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 13, 2018, 05:07:19 PM
Hi,
while searching and collecting data for Yaks profiles I have found several pictures of interesting wavy camouflage.
Some authors interpret them as black-green, others interpret them as already grey-grey.

Colors on this Yak-9 are completly different from green MiG-3 and Il-2 in the background:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369166)

Another one, Yak-7B late, too bright for black-green, even on the bright snowy environment:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369176)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371378)

According to the http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color4.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color4.html) Yak-1B late, interpreted there as black-green:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369177)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371427)

Another very similar wavy camo, same number "22" but color completly different from red star - problably yellow and attempt for already new type of the red star introduced in summer 1943:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369178)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371374)

And what about this red-nose Yak-9 dated on March 1943 - black-green or grey-grey? At airfield.naror.ru interpreted as black green:
(http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/photo_yak-9_14-1.jpg)
(http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/photo_yak-9_14-2.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 13, 2018, 09:19:40 PM
Hi Misos,
you've made a very interesting work.
About plane 8, I can't be sure but I suspect a tiny black outline around the white shape. Besides the white cap should be cut oblique, not parallel to the flight axis; stars and wings are too much rotated.
The shape of the cooler's outlet doesn't fit with the profile.
The landing gear seems to have a sort of door or cover solidal to the leg.  I've the impression that the light on the wing should be more backwards, and the red star under the wings in an inner position.
About the second plane 22, I've the impression that the number could be silver, not yellow, because it seems shiny on its upper part and darker in its lower part.
Plane 08 has most interesting markings, but it is of very difficult interpretation. The nose seems lighter than the red star. Probably there is another number under the 08, overpainted with a blotch of camo color. I think that the camouflage is grey.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 14, 2018, 08:53:58 AM
Hi Misos,
I would add:
-the lip around the exhaust tubes of n.8 should be removed;
-the mast shold be bended backwards;
-the swastikas should be a bit made narrower and moved upwards, so a major white space appears on the sheet;
-the shet itself could be made a bit narrower and far from the hatch;
-the stencil on the hatch could be moved a bit upwards;
- the camo near the windshield and the 3rd exhaust pipe should be revised.

About both planes 22, I see no lip around the exhaust stacks, only a rectangle with different shade.  Both numbers 22 should be extended downwards. Both have the mast bent rearwards.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 15, 2018, 08:41:19 AM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comments. Seems quite a significat reqork is ahead.
I took templates for Yak-7B late that I already have. But these plane looks like mix of sevral types, at least "red 8" - exhaust is like from Yak-1, (water) cooler like from Yak-9. Seems hatch was positioned not very correctly at line draving. I adjusted camouflage, marking and decoration to the overal shapes. Seems some details like hatch were not positioned very well on the line drawing. It I move white sheet far from hatch then it will not fit with camo, cockpit, star etc. so I leave it where it is. I do not see dark outline arounf number 8, maybe som jpg artifacts.
Regarding "yellow 22" - it is really hard to guess the color. It is not shining. Even its lightest upper part is darker that white outline on the star. IMHO it is not silver. Neither white nor red when compared to the red star. Other usual color were yellow and light blue - my choice was yellow.
All planes seems to have exhausts like Yak-1, they all have the antenna mast bended backwards, they all have similar/same camouflage. Do they all have also Yak-9-like bottom (water) cooler, like on "red 8"?
I will rework all other noted discrepancies step by step when I have time and then I will replace those profiles.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 15, 2018, 03:03:52 PM
Hi Misos,
I see the complexity of the work.
About the black outline, i meant that they were around the White wings, not around the number. I don't see them around other light part of the photo, so I don't think that they are jpg artifacts.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 19, 2018, 06:20:44 AM
Hi Massimo,
Red 8 is corrected according to your comments and profile is already replaced in my post above.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2018, 05:36:27 PM
Hi Misos, well made.  I hope to see the definitive version of both 22 soon, and maybe plane 08, with a colored nose (orange?).
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 20, 2018, 02:52:06 PM
Hi,
all 3 profiles in my previous post are corrected and already replaced.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 22, 2018, 05:57:20 AM
Hi,
work in progress on Yak-9 red-nose white 08:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1372037)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 22, 2018, 11:11:40 AM
Hi Misos,
I suggest to use a lighter shade of red than the one of red stars to fit the photo.  The reflection on the nose is particularly well made.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 23, 2018, 08:39:34 AM
Hi Massimo,
thank you :)
IMHO the red color on the nose is the same like on the star but pretty polished and glossy. Sharp demarcation line, e.g. reflection of the horizont is clearly visible especially on the bottom photo. I would say that lighter shade is only reflection of the bright sky.

According to http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/coment_yak-9_14.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-9/color/coment_yak-9_14.html):
"Nine Yak-9 aircrafts, previously owned by the Air Force Inspectorate, were put into service by one squadron of 32 GvIAP on February 9, 1943, along with a group of pilots from the disbanded Inspectorate (also appointed by the commander of the 32nd GVIAP V.I.Stalin). In the arsenal of the remaining squadrons remained aircraft Yak-1B. By order of Vasily Stalin they painted inscriptions "For Volodya!" on the sides of the planes in memory of the deceased pilot of the regiment Vladimir Mikoyan. The aircrafts arrived at the airfield of Staraya Toropa on February 9, 1943... regiment flew to Ostashkov on March 23, (1943) where it left its aircrafts and was relocated to Lyubertsy to replenish its personnel and re-equip it to La-5."
According to that text those photos show aircraft sometime between Fer 9, 1943 and Mar 23, 1943, AFAIK too early for grey-grey colors.

According to http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-7/color_d/coment_yak-7_59.html (http://www.airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-7/color_d/coment_yak-7_59.html)
"Directly at the front brigade of OKB AS. Yakovleva they worked to improve the view back from the cabin of Yak-7 M-105PF - they cut off the top rear fuselage and the lantern was  drop-shaped. From November 17 to December 13, 1942 at the Northwestern Front in 42 iap (commander F.I. Shinkarenko) of 240 IAD military tests were conducted for combat use.
Results of the tests: 242 sorties, 6 air battles, 4 enemy planes were shot down, including: Bf-109F-2, Hs-126-1 and FW-189-1; their losses - one Yak-7B. The cockpit with improved visibility was praised by the pilots and was recommended for use on all fighter-type aircraft."

So Red 8 (the profile in my post from Jan 14) is dated to even earlier period - winter 1942.
Seems I should rework borh Red 8 and White 08 to black-green camo. ??? It least the whole serie will be more colorfull.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 23, 2018, 01:26:51 PM
Hi Misos,
perhaps you know already my point on these planes, but I'll write it again.
In my opinion if these planes appear identical to a Yak-9 that is often described as the prototype of all grey-grey Soviet planes in spring 1943, it is because they were really identical.
All the planes with wavy camouflage, Yak-1, 7 and 9, were not produced in Zavod 115, but passed in that laboratory for maintenance or to be transformed into prototypes or special variants.
The choice of adopting a grey-grey camouflage was not strictly military but logistic, because of the lack of green pigments. So, a laboratory that was strictly bonded to the deputy minister for aircraft production, Yakovlev, could easily have been instructed to experiment grey-grey camouflage before it became a standard.
The use of blue on the sides is not compatible with a camouflage that hides  planes on the ground, but when flying and seen on the horizon.
The Yak-9 of the Yakovlev museum, before being vandalized by those that bought it, was painted in two greys, and that museum was famous for having planes painted in accurate way  (for Russian standards).
So I suggest not to change color to those drawings.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on January 23, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for clarification, you saved me a lot of time. ;)
Here is finished profile:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1372583)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 23, 2018, 08:24:31 PM
Hi Misos,
good work again. I'm happy that your profiles preserve their camouflage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: xan on February 01, 2018, 08:37:53 AM
This last one is very cool!
Xan


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: PG monster on February 12, 2018, 10:13:16 AM
superb!


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 14, 2018, 08:27:58 PM
Hi Misos,
I've asked to Orlov (via Maciej) about the use of greys in 1942 by Z.115.
He answered that he can't say, he hasn't studied the thing but it can't be excluded the use of colors different from AMT-4/6, but shades could be different from those of 1943, AMT-11/12.
Personally I continue to think that they were mix of AMT-7 and black, and AMT-11 and 12 were copied from these mix.
Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: 66misos on February 22, 2018, 09:49:50 PM
Hi all,
thank you for comments, I am glad you like them.
Massimo, interesting info, thanks.
Regards,
   66misos




Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: PG monster on June 13, 2019, 04:02:23 PM
Hi,
while searching and collecting data for Yaks profiles I have found several pictures of interesting wavy camouflage.
Some authors interpret them as black-green, others interpret them as already grey-grey.

Colors on this Yak-9 are completly different from green MiG-3 and Il-2 in the background:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369166)

Another one, Yak-7B late, too bright for black-green, even on the bright snowy environment:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1369176)
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1371378)

Regards,
   66misos


Perhasps too late, but I have to note : the grey camo was intoduced by the same order with the outlined stars (sept. 1943). The photo of winter 42/43. So there are 2 reasons for the green/black camo.


Title: Re: Yaks with wavy camouflage
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 13, 2019, 06:17:10 PM
Hi,
the order to paint All the fighters in grey-grey was of summer 1943, but planes as this one, elaborated in Z.115, can be seen since late 1942.
These planes are identical, in contrast and pattern, to the Yak-9 that is described as the prototype of grey-grey fighters by Orlov in spring 1943 (perhaps it was the very same plane); being identical, all them have to be painted in greys.
Zavod 115 made both maintenance of planes built from different factories, both elaborations into different prototypes.  The lack of green pigments was felt in 1942/43, so the factory elaborated a new experimental camouflage since late 1942, official tests comparing grey-grey and green-black-brown camouflages were made in spring 1943, then the order to change the standard camouflage was issued in the summer.
After that date, the pattern of Z.115 was replaced nearly ever with the new NKAP one even on prototypes; only few photos of planes built later show this pattern again.
Regards
Massimo