Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => MiGs => Topic started by: 66misos on February 16, 2018, 08:08:23 PM



Title: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 16, 2018, 08:08:23 PM
Hi,
here I started work on the early MiG-3 profile:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1380425)

and here is original:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1380426)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/finnishmuseum-AnttiLappalainen/mig3_1.jpg)
I simply wanted to have also "my" Mig in my collection.
Picture is interesting for me because there is nicely visible difference between green colors and blue colors used on the metal and wooden surfaces.

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 16, 2018, 10:58:05 PM
Hi Misos,
the windshield shouldn't have frames between front and side panels, but glue only.
The back behind the canopy looks too curved, the line between the canopy and the fillet of the fin should be nearly straight.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 17, 2018, 03:31:26 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. Profile is corrected according to your notes, plus some shadows added - still WIP:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1380605)
I have a question - were overall proportions and dimensions of the early version same as on the late version? I would say yes but all drawings differ, similarly like drawings of Yaks. ???
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 17, 2018, 04:36:09 PM
Hi Misos,
yes, both erly and late MiG-3s were long the same, 8.25 m if I remember well. MiG-1 was 8.15 m long. The only MiG-3  as log as MiG-1 was the I-200 -004, the prototype, but it was badly balanced because of the weight of the rear tank. The engine was moved forward to balance this tank that was absent on miG-1.
By the way, check the line between the sliding hood and the rear clear part, I think that the profile of the hood is nearly horizontal and there is an angle between the sliding hood and the rear part that were differently inclined.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 17, 2018, 07:58:12 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank for answer.
Regarding profile of the hood and the angle between the sliding hood and the rear part - I took inspiration from this pages:
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/external.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/external.html):
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/leftc.jpg)
and
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/mig3.html#colors (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/mig3.html#colors)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/cutawaysc.jpg)
and photos:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/Red02n.jpg)
and profiles like:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/yellow-numbered/yellow5m.jpg)

I wil try to do somethinf with it.
Regards,
    66misos



Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 17, 2018, 09:17:03 PM
Hi,
here is finished profile of the MiG-3, lt.Estyen, 5 IAP KBF, Finland July 1941:
EDIT - corrected picture
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1381464)

EDIT:
Another early MiG-3, 31 IAP, Kaunas, Lithuania June 1941:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1381465)

(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1380694)

Massimo, sliding hood is a bit reworked to make its top more horizontal.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 17, 2018, 11:03:53 PM
Hi Misos,
looks well made.
Many MiG-3s had hatches for ammo under the wings because they were predisposed for underwing guns. I don't know about those of the photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: AC26 on February 18, 2018, 12:55:16 PM
Hi Misos,

There are red trestle markings in "red 1" in front of horizontal stabilizer leading edges and number is outlined with green. Rudder has also serial number in black.

See: https://www.ilmailumuseot.fi/tuotteet.html?id=20825/264572

The other one. Based only on this photo it could be either "3" or "7".

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 19, 2018, 05:54:45 AM
Hi,
thank you for comments :)
Red trestle marking and something imitating (I cannot read it on the photo) serial numer on the tail added and profile replaced in my post above.
I did not find refferences for hatches for ammo under the wings, so I let it be is it is.

Here is another early MiG-3, 7 iap, Leningrad front, October 1941:
EDIT: corrected picture is in my next post at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2354.msg20660#msg20660 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2354.msg20660#msg20660)

Original:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/fotored42r.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 19, 2018, 07:50:46 AM
Hi Misos,
good profile again.
I think that this one could have all black blades, they are often associated with black repainting, particularly on the spinner.
I think to see a darker line inside the number, so I don't think that it was uniform white. The inside could be red or silver or light blue.
The front of the 4 should be a bit higher.  The blue should be a bit higher under the front leg of the fuselage star.
Regards
Massimo




Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 19, 2018, 05:29:22 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. You are right about prop blades. I will paint them black. However, I do not think thank board number has inside other than white color - IMHO that darker is either dirty, or damaged color or a matther of photo, or their combination.

Regarding trestle marking - seems it was usual on aerly version (short strip and something written beneath of it):
(https://s1.postimg.org/ymdd4nay7/31128_S.jpg)
(https://s2.postimg.org/4630r2c3d/image.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/9usspmqyn/0_7b409_dbf7cb75_XL.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/03/1363452978_MiG-32-colourcopy.jpg)

but was not on latter versions:
(http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/builds/icm/images/icm_mig-3_title.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/04/1365178690_rybalko8.jpg)

Although this "late" early (exhaust pipes, no slats) version from 1943 (?) does not have it:
(https://s1.postimg.org/izkhvgzlr/110320011608_Mi_G-3_bn_37_pestryjkopirovanie.jpg)

Those square openings are ammo hatches:
(https://s12.postimg.org/e895wj5bh/0_6a278_60113fce_XXL.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381604921_T2eC16VzcFIc1D1ehKBSVYWU8vQ60_10.jpg)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 19, 2018, 09:28:53 PM
Hi Misos,
interestingly, the last image shows the panel sealed with adhesive tape.
It is a thing that I have already seen on other photos.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 20, 2018, 05:54:25 AM
Hi Massimo,
the trestle marking corrected and ammo hatch on the underwing added to the Red 1 and Yellow 3 in my post above.
The White 42 will be the next.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 20, 2018, 08:27:26 AM
Hi Misos,
I am not sure that all the planes had that panel. There is written somewhere the factory number when they started and when they stopped this addiction. Perhaps it's written in my page too. The factory number of plane red 1 is known so it is possible to know it for sure. Else, one can have a look to the remains in Vesiveehma, there are some photos around.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 20, 2018, 01:32:40 PM
Hi,
I would add that the scratched paint on the wingroots, the left one at least, were so regularly evident on MiG-3s that they should be represented on drawings that don't represent new and clean planes.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: AC26 on February 20, 2018, 04:38:37 PM
Hi,

Red "1" c/n is 2171. I believe that the MiG remains are no longer at Vesivehmaa (sic") but at Anti-Aircraft museum at Hyrylä. Same place were the P-39 "26" is located.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 22, 2018, 06:41:44 AM
Hi All,
thank you for comments and answers.
Here is corrected White 42:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1381977)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 22, 2018, 09:47:59 AM
Hi Misos,
very good work as usual. Will you trace the upper view and the other side too?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 22, 2018, 01:41:41 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you, I am glad you like it. :)
I focus only on left-side view now, I do not have time&motivations to do 4-views. May be latter.
Regards,
    66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 22, 2018, 07:39:52 PM
Hi Misos,
will you make some MiG-1s and late MiG-3s too?
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 22, 2018, 09:42:11 PM
Hi Massimo,
still 1-2 early versions and then several late versions, winter camo included.
I do not have any reliable line drawing for MiG-1, so probably I will not do it.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 27, 2018, 05:51:41 AM
Hi,
here I started work on the another early MiG-3:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1383336)
Original:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1383337)
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
Hi Misos,
this plane is extremely nice. Not very representative, maybe, but nice. I wait to see it completed.
My impression is that the dark blotch behind the exhausts could be green.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: warhawk on February 27, 2018, 09:16:30 AM
My impression is that the dark blotch behind the exhausts could be green.

I agree with Massimo, looks lighter than one with "37" to me, too.


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 27, 2018, 09:25:27 AM
Hi Massimo,
It was ma original idea - green blotch on the front behind propeller, big black area on the engine cowling and again green blotch behing exhaust and then again black rear fuselage and green tail top - it would nicely alternate black and green colors. But because exhaust stains made the blotch behind exhaust black, I made it as you can seen. No problem to change it.
It looks like photo was made during winter. So I would probably not exclude some light grey instead of light brown on the fuselage.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2018, 04:03:13 PM
Hi Misos,
light grey is possible, of course, but my impression is that the camo didn't change by much with the season.
I see that the ventral cooler has a different color than the lower part of the rear fuselage. I wonder what it is. Maybe AMT-7 and AII light blue?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 27, 2018, 05:20:58 PM
Hi Massimo,
...the ventral cooler has a different color than the lower part of the rear fuselage. I wonder what it is. Maybe AMT-7 and AII light blue?...
IMHO the whole undersurfaces are painted with same color, quite bright and glossy one (look at the wing), so probably AII blue. And the rear fuselage looks darker only due to reflection of the dark ground.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2018, 07:12:57 PM
Hi,
perhaps the light is nearly horizontal and the dark thing on the cooler is the shadow of the landing gear and some other thing.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Johann on February 27, 2018, 08:50:57 PM
It is necessary to correct the border of the lower and upper colors on the fuselage. Between the lower blue and black spot next to the stabilizer there is still a green spot. And he always looked suspiciously at the black stain behind the spigots. It is shade closer to green if you compare green and black spots

(https://s14.postimg.org/6snfvaf75/mig3.jpg)


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 27, 2018, 09:07:08 PM
Hi Johann,
I do not think that there is a green part on the rear fuselage below horizontal stabilizer as you marked it. Check that straight demarcation line - it goes also through the white color so the darker area is above white color not under it e.g. it is either shadow of the wing from the very low sun or a defect of the photograph.

Here is the working alternative with the alternated dark colors over light brown:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1383650)

Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Johann on February 27, 2018, 09:58:20 PM
Yes indeed. Played with contrast. Really marriage or depreciation of old age But this is not a shadow, definitely, it can not bend from the bottom to the top. The shadow marked red from the louder and from the wing on the ground, the angle is the same.

(https://s14.postimg.org/q44e8dfxd/3-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2018, 10:16:56 PM
Hi,
I think that the dark thing is the shadow of the wing. It changes its inclination because the wing has a change in dihedral between the inner part and the outer console, besides the fuselage isn't flat.
There should be some blue on the lower corner of the rudder.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Johann on February 27, 2018, 10:29:07 PM
I agree that the shadow can be parallel to the ground, in the Arctic circle for example, but then the general lighting does not match. And why from the wing shadow to everything else on the ground? And if you pay attention to the shadow of the loupe and compare it with the shadow on the ground, then everything converges. In the opposite case, the shadow from the blade should also be parallel to the fuselage)


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on February 28, 2018, 05:26:17 AM
Hi Johann,
Now I even more think it is shadow. Here are the reasons:
1. Propeller blade is not in the horizontal position, but it directs down under 30° against horizont and therefore its shadow also goes down.
2. Country horizont is not in the horizontal position. You have to rotate the photo cca 1,5° clockwise to get it on the horizontal position.
3. Dark "stripe" on the rear fuselage that you marked with green lines also matches directions of other shadows on the ground. Shadow of the wingtip would be somewhere around the top of the digit 7 - they are not on the same horizont, the wingtip is higher. Your upper green line goes too much upward above digit 7. Note the darker area to the right from the "corner" of the digit 7, several mm below your green line.
4. Check the bottom white line on the rear fuselage - it is apparently darker above the green line, e.g. in the shadow, than under the green line, e.g. in the direct sun.
Regards,
   66misos

EDIT:
Note that red star, its red outline and same (red) outline of the number are on the photo apparently darker than dark area under them - better visible on the sepia than on bw photo. I wonder if that area is rather dark grey (like) AMT-12 and not black. In that case MiG-3 would be in the same standard colors like let's say Il-2 from that era. Of course except of white outline of the dark areas and style of the camo used on the fighter.

EDIT2:
Interesting discussion about colors of this MiG-3 is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2150.msg18240#msg18240 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2150.msg18240#msg18240)


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 04, 2018, 11:45:11 AM
Hi,
here is the finished profile:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1385079)
Regards,
  66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2018, 11:48:51 AM
Hi Misos,
excellent profile. Only, the red star on the tail should be better centered on the hinge line. the red star under the wings should be in outer position, centered on the outer aileron.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 04, 2018, 06:21:14 PM
Hi Massimo,
thank you for comment. You were right about stars. I corrected their positions and replaced picture in my post above.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
Hi Misos,
I hope to see your interpretation of the mysterious plane 97 (ex 27) too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 05, 2018, 11:18:04 AM
Hi Massimo,
to be honest I have no idea what 97/27 you mean ??? Could you, please, post a picture/link?
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2018, 03:04:10 PM
Hi Misos,
I was thinking to this  http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/striped27/striped27camo.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/striped27/striped27camo.html)
This page and the relative profiles are obsolete now. Apart for the more recent knowledge of colors, there are two photos of a plane that most probably is the same one, but one can see the number 97, not 27, on its fuselage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 05, 2018, 04:00:46 PM
Hi Massimo,
I see now. It could be interesting profile, however, pretty speculative. Photo is not clear and does not show very much of the marking - no star and only a top part of the first digit, event the used colors are not clearly visible.
I have found these photos at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6048&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=580 (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6048&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=580):
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381085684_7-r-rjorr-rrrssrrs-1.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381085683_7-rjorr-rrrssrrs.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381085686_7-r-rjorr-rrrssrrs.jpg)
(http://top.scalemodels.ru/images/2013/10/1381085687_7-r-rjorr-rrrssrrs2.jpg)
I am not sure whether it is the same plane - the font of the board number on the flying MiG and downed Mig does not look exactly the same. Plus flying MiG has whithe prop spinner while downed MiG has dark (green?) spinner.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2018, 07:43:52 PM
Hi Misos,
that is right, now i see that it is not the same plane because of the spinner and the inner side of the 7. The resemblance is impressive in all other respect: camo, no mast, no sliding hood. I am not sure about the star on the fuselage (or its lack).
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: warhawk on March 05, 2018, 10:23:42 PM
The resemblance is impressive in all other respect: camo, no mast, no sliding hood.

The hood on No.97 could have been present during service, and "plucked away" by a souvenir-hunting axis soldier upon capture...
Just thinking out loud.


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 06, 2018, 06:41:37 AM
Hi,
The hood on No.97 could have been present during service, and "plucked away"...
Yes, and the same for wings.

In the meantime I started work on the view from the top on the early version. IMHO nothing much interesting, just to show the different colors on the metal and wooden surfaces:
(http://modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1385473)
Then view from the bottom on the early version and then finally side views on the late version - there are quite interesting camos.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 07, 2018, 08:33:46 PM
Hi Misos,
it is possible of course, but it is somewhat wide and frail as a souvenir.

The photos of 97 seem to show that the plane had lost nearly all the paint over the wings sections, The wide dark bands seem shadows of men.

Good work about the upper views.
The pitot probe looks too short for the version without slats. The later model with slats had its pitot on the lower surface, so ic could really have appeared so short.

Are you sure about the variation of angle on the leading edge?

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: otto on March 07, 2018, 10:31:41 PM
I think the flying and the shot down MiG-3 are likely the same plane: the spinner rear part of the flying aircraft looks darker than the front part, and perhaps spinning and reflection show it lighter.


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: 66misos on March 08, 2018, 08:18:57 PM
Hi Massimo,
I am not sure about anything ;) Regarding top view (and upcomming bottom view) applies the same as for side view http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2354.msg20635#msg20635 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=2354.msg20635#msg20635).
Anyhow, according to this photo:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/mig3/Red02n.jpg)
the wing leading edge looks pretty straight and pitot tube a bit longer. I will correct them.

Massimo, Otto, thank ycou for comments regarding late version 27/97. I will come back to it after I finish top & bottom view of the early version.
Regards,
   66misos


Title: Re: Profiles of MiG-3
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 10, 2018, 02:05:56 PM
Hi Misos,
I've checked on the drawings I have, none shows discontinuity in the angulation of the leading edge from above.
regards
Massimo