Sovietwarplanes

Sources: books and links => Books and magazines => Topic started by: righidan on December 01, 2018, 11:17:39 AM



Title: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: righidan on December 01, 2018, 11:17:39 AM
Dear Friends,
   I wanted to report the forthcoming printing of a book “REAL COLORS OF WWII for AIRCRAFT” from the modelling paint producer AK.
   It is in English, and the part on Soviet colors is due to Mr. Mikhail V. Orlov.
   I do not know how long the part on Russian colors is, but from the preview at https://ak-interactive.com/ it should be at least 40 pages long.
   I have preordered the book, that at 61 € including postage is not cheap, and it will cost about 5 € more when published, but I think that having a work from Mr. Orlov after ten years from his groundbreaking work in Aviakolletsia (and even more from the M-Hobby articles) should be e worthwhile investment.
Regards
Daniele


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 02, 2018, 07:16:43 AM
Hi Daniele,
this news is very interesting. Yes, it is pricy, but it should resolve a lot of problems both for Soviet planes and for those of other nations. Similar books on planes of other ages and military vehicles would be interesting too.
Just a doubt: I would know if the color references will be relative to the AK catalogue only, or there are crossed references with FS and other catalogues.
I wouldn't to be limited to the choice of their paints.
Please, keep us informed.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: righidan on December 02, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
Dear Massimo,
  as soon as I receive the book, I will keep you informed.
Regards
Daniele


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: K.Ingraham on December 07, 2018, 04:01:03 AM
We can extrapolate from AK's recent corresponding tome "Real Colors of WW2," devoted to military vehicles and gear. A well-worn copy resides a few feet from where I'm typing this.

Colors therein are described using the period official nomenclature and descriptors without references to modern hobby products. Along with comprehensive discussion of the prescribed paint systems, colors and application; there are some generic chapters discussing color interpretation, meanings used by different services and nations (US khaki vs British khaki for example) and similar issues. Chapters are organized by nationality. Many color-correct photos of original relics are included, as well as color charts. Nomenclatures are properly used; for example, the US Federal Standard (FS) is applied only to US colors and equivalents where that color survived into the FS era and is not stretched to other nations.

Based on that release, this aviation counterpart will almost certainly use actual colors and references and not be just a hardcover advert for the sponsor's products (unlike a certain British model magazine). I expect great things from this aviation release--if it's only nearly as good as "Real Colors of WW2," it'll still be worth every dime, centavo or pence.


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2018, 08:11:01 PM
Certainly, not putting references to modellistc paint is a good choice, because they would make publicity to their own paints (that is not nice for the readers) and to those of other producers (that is not good for themselves).
Anyway, a card of this type would be useful for many modellers. Maybe made by a third part.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Spitfire on December 17, 2018, 07:57:04 PM
Saw the details of the book on another site and I have also pre ordered one, Nick Millman is also a contributor so it should be accurate.

Cheers

Dennis


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: AC26 on December 19, 2018, 09:17:39 PM
Looks really interesting book from highly respected authors. A close to 300 pages book with almost 400 pictures for 55€ is IMHO not a bad deal with this background. Just imagining the amount of work needed to collect all the material needed for it is done for labour of love to the subject.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: learstang on December 30, 2018, 07:22:24 AM
This looks like a book well worth purchasing, if only for the portion on Soviet colours.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Spitfire on January 17, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
Got my book through the post I have not had the time to have a thorough look through it but at first glance it looks very good.

Cheers

Dennis

(https://imageshack.com/i/po5W3uyvj)
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmHLqox7j)
(https://imageshack.com/i/pn8a8CcIj[img]https://imageshack.com/i/pllx3NTqj)[/img]


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Spitfire on January 17, 2019, 05:19:55 PM
More
(https://imageshack.com/i/pllx3NTqj)


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: righidan on January 19, 2019, 03:48:22 PM
Dear friends,
   I have received the book, and read most of the Soviet colours chapters, and as promised I share some brief impressions with you.
   The book begins very well, as in the acknowledgements section, there is mention of a certain Massimo Tessitori, that you probably know….
   Then the part on soviet colours 1940-1945 begins on page 228 and goes on to page 289, the end of the book, with one page of bibliography.
   The ten chapters are:
- Terms and definitions
- Until 1940
- 1940
- 1941-1942
- Winters of 1941-42 and 1942-43
- 1943
- Winter of 1943-44
-1944-1945
- Frontline experience
- A view from the inside
   All the chapters are heavily illustrated with clear photos and copies of original drawings from the various orders, and these are much better than all the ones I have previously seen.
   We also have three tables, one of them “Enamels and lacquers used for camouflaging aircraft in the 1941 – 1945” has printed representation of 17 colours.
   Of course, they are not real colour chips, and probably the reason is that the producer, AK-interactive, would like you to buy their paints, if you want to know the exact shade.
   Hoping not to infringe any copyright, and in good faith, I enclose a scan of this table.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7897/46075791544_60b89dbb2c_b.jpg)
   From the colours, you can see that for most of them there is a perceptible variation in hue among the ones for wooden surfaces, and the ones for metal surfaces.
   At the address https://ak-interactive.com/product/real-colors-equivalences-for-air/ you can download a table with colour equivalencies for all the real air Colours.
   The global impression is that the material is very similar to that published in M-Hobby and then summarized in Aviakolletsia, but even if I have those publications, I am quite happy to have bought this one.
   I feel that, even if most information is not new from what already published in Russian, it is exposed more clearly.
   I imagine that, even after having studied it thoroughly, the changes to make to Massimo site on Russian colours will be minimal or absent.
   The only difference I have noted is that Mr. Orlov believes that the green and black La 5FN n.57 has a grey-blue front cowling, while Massimo believes it is red: a very minor point indeed.
   I find very little to criticize, maybe I would have liked more clarification on the use of silver colour for undersides, and I would have called the Milori Blue as prussian Blue, but these are all minor points.
   I would suggest that, if you are really interested in aviation colour, this is a book that you cannot miss.
   And then now I HAVE to order some of their paints…
   Regards
Daniele


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 19, 2019, 09:51:16 PM
Hi Daniele, hi Dennis,
hank you for your previews, the book looks excellent.
Pity that AK hasn't yet a set of colors for the late '30s up to 1941.  I hope they will provide in some ways.
About the nose of La-5FN n.57, it could be blue, of course, but the photo shows the same shade of grey of the star on the tail too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Troy Smith on February 02, 2019, 03:55:53 PM
Saw the details of the book on another site and I have also pre ordered one, Nick Millman is also a contributor so it should be accurate.

Cheers

Dennis

I REALLY REALLY hope they do not repeat the Real Colors of WWII Armour fiasco...
I posted this on a review on another  site, as I'd only seen glowing reviews,  and then a thread on Britmodeller got me doing some searching.  This MAY NOT apply in this case, but if they did it before.....  I suggest treating with caution until reliable independent confirmation is reached on the content.

start quote...

Saw the book at my model club, and thought "wow"
Eventually got one when on a special at UK model distributor, was  impressed with the whole package.
In a recent thread on Britmodeller there was discussion regarding the claim for +/- 3% on the accuracy in color reproduction.
I said I honestly didn't know, and did some digging.
this, from the "author" of the British section staggered me
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/track48/ak-interactive-real-colors-t10663-s20.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/track48/ak-interactive-real-colors-t10663-s20.html)

 
Quote
Regarding the AK book.  To be honest I am livid and disgusted at the way they published the British section.  My submitted original text was requested to be shortened, which I did.  They then edited that without my knowledge. I sent complete sets of camouflage diagrams with copies of the official orders.  These orders were totally ignored.   Then redrew some of the disruptive diagrams in their own style and colours transposed onto mostly American vehicles, apparently the British didn't have any of their own.  To cap it they then applied a disruptive pattern from one tank type onto another type, it doesn't fit of course.  The ultimate was putting the pattern for the Greek based A10s onto a Crusader which never carried the design nor deployed to Greece.  Samples of their paint were sent to me for assessment.  None were accurate, not even close, which I reported back with larger samples.  New samples then arrived for testing, still not right.  In discussion I discovered that they were matching under 'daylight' lighting!  FGS are they not sharp or what?  I gave them up as a waste of my time, I told them that too.  Rant over.


This is a noted authority on British Armour, and this is how they treat his input.
this is some more of the AK Real Colors that come from this "research"
https://www.track-link.com/forums/site_blogs/33527 (https://www.track-link.com/forums/site_blogs/33527)
 
Quote
Subject:    Re: Chapter 8 - Finished Model and Conclusions
Date:   Dec 22, 2017 (03:17:25)
From:   Mike Starmer
On the subject of AK paints. I have 7 samples of the Middle East colours for the desert and Italy. Greatly disappointing. Only Light Mud is reasonably close to the appearance of this in photographs but currently lacking a standard would do. Khaki Green 3 is far too light and ginger, lacks depth and the green tinge of the original. Slate 4 is too light and green, should be darker and more grey, Silver Grey 28 is not even close, being too light and very sickly yellow. Portland Stone is too light and lacks the slight green tinge it should have. Light Stone 61 is too dark and too red, Desert Pink is a bright shocking 'girly' hue nothing like SCC.11b , should be duller and earthy in appearance. SCC.14 Blue-black is dark but too red.


It has come up the AK are planning  Real Colors of WWII Aircraft
I noted that their USN set misses out 2 blues...
 https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049797-us-navy-sea-blues/&do=findComment&comment=3249838 (https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049797-us-navy-sea-blues/&do=findComment&comment=3249838)

I know I am not a regular poster here, but as I could comment, I thought this was worth noting, as it's not a cheap book, and so far, postive review, though there was a post on how they got the RAL colors wrong
OK found it

 https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ak-real-german-colors-disappointment-t58055-s20.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ak-real-german-colors-disappointment-t58055-s20.html)

since the big part of the book is the German colors, this really casts doubt on the whole book.  the poster in this case notes that there are numerous errors in actual German in the book.

the poster notes

 
Quote
Don't forget, they only took the names of the authors and their knowledge/stuff. The book was written by a ghostwriter and was placed on market, before they ever had seen the result. That's the way some companies work.


 
I'm very annoyed about this as I bought the damn book BEFORE I found this out.


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: John Thompson on February 02, 2019, 06:36:08 PM
I bought the aircraft colours book; unfortunately, I haven't had time to study it carefully. The comments by Daniele/righidan pretty much confirm what I expected, though - very similar to previous information published in MHobby and Aviakollektsia written by, or based upon, Orlov's work, but welcome in English, finally.

Regarding the paints themselves, I also ordered the three main colours of the 1943 two-greys scheme. Compared to Akan (which I have found in one case to be somewhat variable), I see the following:
AMT-7: Close, but seems slightly more grey than Akan
AMT-11: Again close, but darker
AMT-12: Quite a bit darker; it's actually black, more than dark grey.

The colour samples as printed in the book are not very good. If AMT-12 is supposed to be almost black, as the text for that sample says, then yes, it's certainly black, but not the very dark grey of the Akan paint. AMT-11 is too blue with almost a greenish tinge to it. AMT-7 is also too blue. The samples for AMT-7 and AMT-12 match neither AK's own paint nor Akan's colours. Regarding AMT-12, well, black is black, but it doesn't match the Akan version.

As I said, I can't comment on the text itself. I will say I paid a lot more than I expected for shipping and handling, possibly because of the "lacquer" paints that were part of the same order. Shipping was about $30 Cdn, IIRC, which I knew and accepted up front; however, when the DHL courier arrived at my door, I got hit with another $30 Cdn charge for various Canadian government fees! The three armour-modelling magazines that AK included as a gift did nothing to soften the blow - I really have no interest in armour!

John


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 03, 2019, 09:14:54 PM
Hi John and Troy,
thank you for your warnings.
Pity for the book on tanks of ww2. I was somewhat interested, but these facts are not encouraging for an expensive book.
Of course, printed colors are expected to be not accurate compared to chips of real paint.
About the book on the painting of planes, I am doubtful that there are additions on what already known on Soviet planes. I am somewhat interested about other air forces, but I'll wait to read some reviews on them.
The thing of the fees was badly unexpected. I haven't ever charged with such things.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: learstang on February 06, 2019, 12:20:10 AM
Thank you gentlemen for the heads up on this book! I was tempted to buy it, but I think I'll pass it up now.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: AC26 on February 10, 2019, 06:54:38 PM
Hi all,

I have now read this book. What I'm familiar are the Luftwaffe and the VVS which I can comment a bit.

Luftwaffe seems to be in line with earlier works of the late Ken Merrick and Michael Ullman. After their latest books new information of the late-war colours (RLM 80 to 83) has been found and it is presented. There are also plenty of original documents including colour cards printed.

About the VVS there are not much new for longer term enthusiast of the subject but especially various camouflage trials are quite extensively presented. In fact I would have preferred more pictures of the standard cases instead. For the documents same can be said as I already said about the Luftwaffe.

Profile of the MIG-3 of lieutenant Estjen would have been better after having a look of Massimo's page of the aircraft ;)

No comments about RAF and the USA from me. I hope to hear someone else commenting about them.

So far I'm happy that I obtained it. I'd say it as a one stop resource of the main combatants of the WWII aviation colours. Unless something similar as in the tank book is found...

About the price... It could have been split into four books, each of one country, and all of them sold for 40-50 €s.

I have nothing to do with the publisher or the authors of this publication.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 12, 2019, 08:14:10 AM
Hi  AaCee
good to know about the Luftwaffe chapter.
Quote
Profile of the MIG-3 of lieutenant Estjen would have been better after having a look of Massimo's page of the aircraft
What is wrong with their profile? I haven't seen it.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: AC26 on February 12, 2019, 07:06:20 PM
Hi Massimo,

Profile has the tail number "1" outlined in white and rear fuselage trestle markings are missing.

Cheers,

AaCee


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2019, 06:27:29 AM
Hi AaCee,
I see. In tht case, there is the rudder preserved in Finland and we can know for sure. I wonder how many unsuspected colors can be found. There is an excellent series of articles by Timin on recent M-Hobby with great images, particularly at the time of Barbarossa. I would love to see a translation. Probably they are not fundamental as those of Orlov twenty years ago, but give a lot of new nice images.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 12, 2019, 08:52:33 AM
Hi all,
I received a mail from Maciej Goralczyk of AK interactive. Here it is:

Quote
Hi Massimo,

I've seen some comments on your forum.
To clarify some things:
- the Aircraft book was essentially created by a different editorial team than the AFV book. Aside from the authors and illustrator, the only people involved in its creation were: me as the executive editor, and the graphic designer which is also Polish and works for AK-Interactive as an outside contractor, plus a fellow modeller and magazine contributor from UK, who proof read the German and Soviet chapters.
- each author have seen the layout and was able to comment it, recommend any changes and approve their application before anything went to print. So, no stories about ghostwriting apply here. This also concerns the colour profiles - all were shown to the authors for their approval.
- from what I know, all the authors are happy with the result and do not complain about anything. Perhaps the Soviet chapter does not bring a lot of news for the "die-hard" afficionados as some of the members of your forum, but for Russians it is very important as their voice against Pilavski's claims - hence the Scalemodels.ru support, whose one of the admins helped with translation and contacts with Mr. Orlov
- regarding the AMT-12 tone - in the colour table there's colour description from Mr. Orlov: "Very dark, close to black" - these are his own words, and I'm not in position to argue with him.

Kind regards,
Maciej


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: John Thompson on April 12, 2019, 09:41:04 PM
Interesting. But "very dark, close to black" doesn't mean the same as black as the AK colour is presented. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that a field substitute for AMT-12 consisted of a mix of black (AMT-6) and blue (AMT-7), so the end result would be a very dark blue-grey, not dead black.

John


Title: Re: A new book with Mr. Orlov among the authors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 13, 2019, 07:23:49 AM
Hi John,
two links from Maciej:
https://abload.de/img/dsc_0469jhjew.jpg (https://abload.de/img/dsc_0469jhjew.jpg)
https://abload.de/img/dsc_0471byj1h.jpg (https://abload.de/img/dsc_0471byj1h.jpg)
Seems that their AMT-12 is as dark as Akan, and probably it appears this way on the Nakrasok.
Probably the real paint had some variability and was prone to fade.
Regards
Massimo