Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: Shugayev on April 19, 2019, 12:10:48 AM



Title: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 19, 2019, 12:10:48 AM
Hi all,
I'd like to ask how the colors on Soviet ww2 fighters and bombers faded. I used to build Jap planes and the case there was that due to increased heat and humidity of the Pacific region the panels did fade a lot especially the green color. In Russia however, there was no such case so excessive panel fading and discoloring is out of the question. As the color on the model surfaces should by no means look even-that is one of the hobby principles-any suggestion with the help of a photo perhaps is more than welcome.
Cheers
Panagiotis  


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 19, 2019, 06:45:31 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
how they faded... when they had time enough to fade.
Modellers (particularly tank modellers)  often take as examples of weathering wrecks that were exposed to weather for a long time.
Real tanks and planes in wartime could be lost soon, or they could be retouched; seldom they are fully repainted. 
Modellers rarely show repaintings because they look as rough corrections on their model, that is the model looks badly made.
Returning on weathering of Soviet planes, one has to distinguish if the surface was glossy, as markings and prewar liveries, or matt as the wartime camouflage, that was more prone to deterioration, mainly by chalking, that makes it more matt and it appears lighter than more recent paint that was less matt.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 19, 2019, 08:06:28 AM
Hi Massimo,
Thanks a lot for your reply. I got the point and I'll follow it. Here's a retouch of my 00B Il-2 after the first wash.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7850/KVUYzd.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4123/T8mpEC.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/694/DLuX4K.jpg)

Something else now. Embarassing I shoud say. :-[ This was my first VVS model. A Zvezda 1/48 Yak-3 as you see. The blue 1 code is imaginary unfortunately. ::)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8453/Sbh3xb.jpg)

The colors are faded too. This weekend I'll retouch the colors to a more even look and I'll correct the codes to existing rather than imaginary..These are my two picks.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1360/ZyIERt.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/456/b9VuB4.jpg)

As you can see changing the color to orange is not such a big deal. This blue 1 ???  will go for sure. I find the ''100'' more intriguing. What do you think?

And last but not least at all.. When I modelled the Zvezda Su-2 I didn't notice at all that the ''red 8'' was a -M-88B type while my model was a plain 88 type.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6056/Uug58T.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7388/lSOjne.jpg)

So, either I should replace the wrong nose cowling and hub or  pick a -88-M profile. I opted for the latter of course. This is my pick as you may remember.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3969/tIFXTZ.jpg)

This weekend is going to be a fix-the-stupidities time period. If you're laughing at me I can understand it. :) :D But better late than never as they say.. :-X Any comment more than welcome needless to say.

Cheers,
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 19, 2019, 08:43:17 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
the Yak-3 is nice anyway. Are you sure to take the risk to modify an already finished model?
About Su-2 I think that both Zvezda and ICM chose the less attractive and more limiting version.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: otto on April 19, 2019, 02:18:47 PM
Panagiotis, you make really great models! Your Yak-3 is beautiful, I planned to make one with the same open cowling panel. Perfect models don't exist: perhaps the blue "1" is wrong (are you sure?), but the paint doesn't seem too faded to me and this Yak is a winner!
This is my suggestion: don't waste your time correcting your old models, risking to mess them up. Perhaps spend one more day reading the documentation, but make new ones: we look forward to seeing them. Why not a Zvezda Pe-2?


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 19, 2019, 05:44:03 PM
Thank you Otto for your comment. Dont woŕry this is not the first time I tamper with my finished models, I think I can fix the mistake.. The same applies with the Su-2. There is definitely an incoming Pe-2 project. Before I make a decision the forum will learn first. ;) No mistakes Ógain! :)
Cheerś
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: warhawk on April 19, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
Modellers rarely show repaintings because they look as rough corrections on their model, that is the model looks badly made.

I agree fully.
Most modelers believe they can do re-paints whatever way they want, but it is actually a bit of an art to botch it exactly the way they did on the real thing  ;D


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 19, 2019, 06:57:06 PM
Modellers rarely show repaintings because they look as rough corrections on their model, that is the model looks badly made.

I agree fully.
Most modelers believe they can do re-paints whatever way they want, but it is actually a bit of an art to botch it exactly the way they did on the real thing  
Provide me with some ref photos and I can show you if I can make it show on my model. ;) I mean it. :)


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 19, 2019, 10:08:14 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
Quote
Provide me with some ref photos and I can show you if I can make it show on my model. Wink I mean it. Smiley
many photos of grey Yaks (3 in particular) show the metallic front fuselage painted with fresh dark colors, while the rear is faded.
At present time, I have not in good order my archive of photos of Yak-3.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 20, 2019, 07:19:33 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
here are some:

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak3/yak3-repaintings.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak3/yak3-nn1flight.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/yak179/Yak-9/yak9-angular.jpg)

Probably the thing is due to a major necessity to repaint metallic parts because of chipping; all those panels were removable and subject to wearing.

Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 20, 2019, 03:47:53 PM
Hi Massimo,
Grazie for the ref photos. In the one with the arrowed 1 Yak-3, behind the star I can see fresh paint unevenly sprayed on top of the old one. Like the look of it! ;)
As for my Yak model modifications for the "orange yellow 100"  have already started while in the Su-2 the wrong cowling has been removed 8) and I have already ordered the correct Vector shape. I decided to keep the "red 8" winter scheme. When both are ready I'll post the final photos.
Cheers
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 20, 2019, 05:29:34 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
looks a good choice. Changing the nose will add some interest to the Su-2.
I wait to see your models completed.
regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 22, 2019, 06:07:38 AM
Hi Massimo and forumists,
I had some more free time this weekend, so
1. I changed the ''identity'' of my finished Yak-3-thanks God with no problems

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8198/As4NrZ.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/780/XGx4fH.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1313/IuhWNL.jpg)

2. I removed the wrong cowling of the Su-2 and I freshened the green camo using AKAN colors. As I have told you I'm waiting for the correct cowling..

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1091/rDy9tr.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4701/0jE2dY.jpg)

and 3. I oversprayed the previous brown on my yellowish Mig-3 using AMT-1 AKAN. What do you think of the difference? The retouch has not been over yet. I'm waiting for your opinion.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3973/5Bzj00.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4779/y7lOZP.jpg)

Hopefully the Mig-3 will be over by next weekend..

Cheers
Panagiotis.



Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: learstang on April 22, 2019, 06:11:14 AM
Very nice models! I especially like that MiG-3. One thing I try to remember about my VVS models is that during the Great Patriotic War most aeroplanes did not last that long, especially in the first two years of the war. I tend to show them as having a lot of use - exhaust stains, stains from the guns, chipped wing roots where the pilot entered into the aircraft, but I don't go overboard with chipping elsewhere, or fading. That's my preference.

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 22, 2019, 08:27:33 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
nice to see that the modifications to your models are clean.
About the Yak-3: are you sure that the hatch cover can rest in that horizontal position when open? I thought that there were not hinges, only screws.
The color for the MiG-3 looks good.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on April 22, 2019, 08:22:24 PM
Hi Massimo,
Yes, I'm sure I saw it somewhere. It must have been in a Soviet documentary film showing the progress of Yak-3s being assembled in a plant.
Cheers,
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 23, 2019, 09:28:16 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
well, I'm happy that there aren't doubts on this.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 08, 2019, 08:31:34 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
looks a good choice. Changing the nose will add some interest to the Su-2.
I wait to see your models completed.
regards
Massimo
Hi Massimo,
I finally got the Vector cowling and except for the cowling I'll have some more extra work to do.. :-X

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3388/AEwObc.jpg)

A question now..The ventral turret..

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2189/gRy9yO.jpg)

was there in the M-88-B type?

Cheers,
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 08, 2019, 02:20:20 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
I don't know about the ventral support. I have a cutaway of the first version where the structure is not represented, only a closed metallic hatch. I've one photo of a Su-2 M-82 where the device was undoubtedly present.
I see that the resin engine is well detailed and complex. Does it worth? Has it impact on the look of the completed model?
Regards
Massimo     


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 08, 2019, 04:24:15 PM
Hi Massimo,
I think i won't build a ventral turret after all. Yes, the engine looks great although little is seen especially in the 88-B type. In the picture of my model taken from above do you think the very light grey I've sprayed is correct? I've seen profiles of the "red 8" winter scheme and the grey in the upper fuselage differs..Any suggestions?
Cheers
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 09, 2019, 06:22:04 AM
Here are the relevant photos.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2079/z5S3dX.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8183/fSeT3Q.jpg)

And this is what the Vector cowling does to its own engine :D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2221/KNSKWz.jpg)

As it is I'm still looking for an unusual Su-2 88-B profile..

This looks really good..

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/Nysbty.jpg)


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 09, 2019, 09:24:04 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
both profiles are relative to the same plane, and both are wrong in some ways. It is at pag.65 of a Russian monograph on Su-2. The same monograph has  a profile nearly identical to what you have already shown.
The profile with grey (?) bands has to be corrected:
there are thin lighter lines between the supposedly grey bands and the darker ones, more or less as shown in the other profile; I can suppose that they are white or light grey;
the spinner doesn't seem in solid color to me; I thnk that the front half could be red, while the rear half could be black.
Have you the possibility to find that photo?
Here is another one on the web. Here the light thin lines are less visible
(http://wwiilogs.com/WTImages/Vehicles/182.jpg)

I would add that the number doesn't seem red, it could be white or light blue.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 10, 2019, 07:15:15 AM
Hi Massimo,
I tried to make a clearer photo of the red ''8''

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5934/3S1LXX.jpg)

the thin grey(?) lines separating the upper grey with the lower green/black scheme are quite clear

there also seems to be a trace of snow at the wing root below the canopy and this trace has been depicted in this profile which is very clear now

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1935/rMs1si.jpg)

which may mean that the upper wings were covered in temporary white overspray? 

Lastly, trying to reach to a conclusion as this weekend I'll spray the final scheme,..please correct me where you find appropriate.. ;)

-I spray the spinner red and black as you suggest and I think you're right

-I paint the thin lines a very light grey or white (and not light brown)

-I scratch a viewfinder on the Shkas MG as it appears on the profile just above

-I spray a little temporary white overspray on the upper wings,(this must be quite a risk I suppose) :-\

-I'll finally risk opening the ventral hatch like that

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5093/aWFnsb.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/952/2orfxa.jpg)

Thanks a lot for your help once again.. :)

Cheers,

Panagiotis



Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 10, 2019, 09:13:09 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
you can blur the image, it will be more readable.
I don't see any white on the wings. I think that they are camouflaged as the fuselage. In some photos the tip of the right wing looks light.
Besides the plane is surely painted with some more shades of grey (?), perhaps it depends only on the thickness of the paint layer or retouches.
 The pattern of the closer wing should be readable from the photos.
I am not sure that black is still visible. Comparing to the plane 1 on the background, all the dark shade seems green. I don't assure that this is true for all the plane.
These planes appear in a wartime movie, so if you look for on Youtube it could be that you find more.
I don't think that the light things on the fuselage is snow, on a flying plane. It's more likely that they are metal scratches.
The spinner could be not red-black but grey-green. It is not demonstrable with our sources.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 13, 2019, 06:26:05 AM
Hi Massimo,
Plenty of work on my model with all the necessary things for a 88-B conversion already done. The spray work has reached to this point. The 1st photo is purposely B&W as I want to show that the green on the fuselage looks much lighter in the photo. Could eventually the dark shade in the original plane be black after all? :-\
Do comment on the color shades in the second photo please.

Regards
Panagiotis.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/921/tsolGN.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7082/9TGlCV.jpg)


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 13, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
I fear that the repainting work isn't ended. I will try to obtain a sketch from the available photos this afternoon, at the moment I can say that the stars on the wings are certainly wrong.
I suspect that the grey-or what it is-covers the black parts. Besides some other light lines are visible on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 13, 2019, 02:54:59 PM
 Hi Massimo,
The stars of the wings are not done yet for sure. I'm waiting for a decal sheet with black outlined stars. It's the fuselage I worked on yesterday. I'll be waiting for your sketches too. Today I got the decal emblems for the engine cowlings of my "orange 100" Yak-3. Jeez, this repainting work on my Soviet quadruple never seems to end! But I definitely will end this the right way soon.  ;)
Regards
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 13, 2019, 03:05:03 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
I've attempted a sketch.
I suppose that the camouflage was a non standard fall one, later modified into a winter one.
The colors are unknown, I suppose that they are greyish brown similar to AMT-1, but perhaps they hadn't the original color, made mixes and so all retouches result very visible and make more complex the camouflage.
The brown seems to cover the black on the known side of the fuselage, so it is likely that it was so on all the plane.
The right wing shows wide light areas at the tip, excluding the leading edge. I suppose that it was thinned white. Perhaps some white is visible on the rear of the left wing. The rear part of the spinner could be green. The number is light enough, I suppose light blue.  The dark area visible around the number is very unconsistent.
Please keep in mind that this thing is widely my guess.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/Su-2/su2-8-camo.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 13, 2019, 04:13:06 PM
Hi Massimo,
I feel stunned! This is a great sketch and negates all the previous assumptions on the camo of this very profile! My hands are still very warm on my Badger 150 airbrush so this marvelous sketch will be my only guide and for sure will be sth completely different which has been attempted from my fellow modelers all these yrs!
So, I will use this AMT-1 shade and darken the green on my model a little. The thin lines which quite add to the beauty of this camo will be a lighter tone of the AMT-1 as I sprayed them on my yesterday's attempt. No stars on the upper surfaces? The blue 8 is a revolutionary assumption  :)  and will add to the general image. Correct me where I'm wrong. I know, I've learned it from you, ..guess is the key word. Based on knowledge and experience of course.
Much obliged,
Panagiotis.


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 13, 2019, 05:57:46 PM
Hi Panagiotis,
I'm happy that you appreciate the scheme. I think that it is somewhat a progress on previous profiles, but it's hard to say if it is right.
I wait to see your model.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Shugayev on May 14, 2019, 05:20:21 AM
Hi Massimo,
I've already sprayed the camo as your profile suggested and unless the pilot himself (!) or people who have seen the specific plane with their own eyes  :D say otherwise this will be the definite scheme of the model. When finished I'll post photos.
Thanks a lot again,
Regards,
Panagiotis.




Title: Re: How Soviet ww2 plane panels faded?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 14, 2019, 06:17:13 AM
Hi Panagiotis,
you're welcome. I'll wait to see your model.
Regards
Massimo