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Print Page - Most accurate Il-2 plans?

Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Ilyushins => Topic started by: warhawk on November 26, 2020, 03:37:46 PM



Title: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: warhawk on November 26, 2020, 03:37:46 PM
Hello,

I'd like to check my Il-2 from Tamiya against a set of plans, but I came across some mismatches comparing plans from various publications to one another.
Could anyone help me with this conundrum?
What are (currently) the most accurate ones?

Regards,
Aleksandar


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 26, 2020, 06:45:02 PM
Interesting question. I noticed discrepancies between plans of different authors. It could even be that the model is more  accurate than some of them.
One could point the discrepancies by overposing different drawings by a graphic program, then try to compare with photos or other sources to choose or correct the best one.
It would be a lot of difficult work.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Troy Smith on November 28, 2020, 04:13:38 PM
Hello,

I'd like to check my Il-2 from Tamiya against a set of plans, but I came across some mismatches comparing plans from various publications to one another.
Could anyone help me with this conundrum?
What are (currently) the most accurate ones?

Regards,
Aleksandar
I'm guessing the ones from the MMP book by Viktor Povinsky.   He's recently been posting on Britmodeller as 'airacutter' in the thread on the new Zvezda Il-2,  you might want to ask him?
HTH


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 28, 2020, 05:30:29 PM
Hi, it could be, they seem well made. Just, there is not too much point in asking to an author if his drawings are the best existing ones. Maybe you could ask his opinion anyway. I havent found the thread on the new kit of Zvezda, when was it updated for the latest time?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: warhawk on December 02, 2020, 12:03:14 PM
Thanks for the suggestions.
I'm guessing the ones from the MMP book by Viktor Povinsky.

His book is on my wishlist for quite some time, regardless of plans, but I will contact him.
Meanwhile, I posted the same question on Scalemodels.ru (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_1653733.html#1653733) forum, and got a very interesting reply.
First of all, I was advised to avoid any plans drawn by the Czech or Polish publications (which is a bit weird, given that both the Czech and the Polish have IL-2s in local museums, i.e. access to measure them).

The most accurate plans so far (reprinted and updated over time) are apparently ones drawn by I.I. Rodionov in the 1982 issue of Modelist-Konstruktor.
They were kind enough even to share a scan, so I compared those to this excellent photo below
https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/205457/2-private-ilyushin-il-2-sturmovik/

Then I laid the Tamiya 1/72 Il-2 onto them, and everything fits perfectly to one another!

Regards,
Aleksandar




Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 04, 2020, 07:13:19 AM
Hi Aleksandar,

I admire how the photographer was able to obtain a so accurate profile view. The image has to be shot by very far.
I think to have a scan in my HD, it was described as accurate.
About the drawings of other publications, I see that the most noticeable difference is the wing dihedral, if it changed or not from the inner wing plan to the outer consoles.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: dogsbodyMk.1 on December 15, 2020, 10:59:16 PM
I have this material that I bought from Viktor some years ago.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1748/42519861472_72c21ff9ed_c.jpg)





Chris


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: xan on December 28, 2020, 07:43:38 AM
Waow what is there inside? only profiles ? can we buy it nowadays ?
Xan


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on January 16, 2021, 09:35:18 AM
About IL-2 drawings, all drawings in all books, this is tracing paper with modifications of varying degrees of fantasy, as already mentioned, from Ivan Rodionov's drawings published in the Soviet magazine Modelist Konstruktor 1982 №5.

Here they are:

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qyj54Bt/1982-05-14-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V0PBK6SV)(https://i.postimg.cc/NGzCCDxM/1982-05-15-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NLRx51Sq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtVMB3pY/1982-05-16-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mf00NSVK)(https://i.postimg.cc/kXR10Sjy/1982-05-17-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcY3HXVk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/13pWtQ1n/1982-05-18-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wd1mWx3T)(https://i.postimg.cc/dVMHw0pc/1982-05-19-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXgcCJJm)

Rodionov made drawings using factory documentation.

Tamiya's 1/48 model was made according to the 3D reconstruction carried out by Aviarestavratsiya specialists, on the basis of the factory drawings of the plant №30. The same materials were used to restore two real flying IL-2. The materials which Tamiya got included the fuselage, wings and empennage but did not include the canopy, so the canopy in Tamia model is incorrect. There are no public drawings for this reconstruction.

As you might guess, the reconstruction of the Aviarestavratsiya surpasses Rodionov's drawings in accuracy from old MK, because they are computer-based, and Rodionov worked in the traditional way, in pencil on paper.

I talked with Rodionov and he told me that the documentation of the №30 plant for some reason does not coincide with the archival photographs, therefore, the two real Il-2 reconstructed in Aviarestavratsiya and the Tamiya model are not entirely accurate, by this criterion.

The Zvezda 1/48 model was made with the direct participation of Ivan Rodionov, and is declared as the most accurate replica of the object. Ivan made adjustments that made the development of the Zvezda more consistent with archival materials. There are no public drawings for this reconstruction too.

As a result, there are two developments on the market, the accuracy of which is higher than the existing public drawings. It is possible that Zvezda's engineers will subsequently publish blueprints from their IL-2 model, just as they did with the Pe-2.





Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: John Thompson on January 16, 2021, 03:24:26 PM
Excellent! Thank you very much, Psy!

John


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 16, 2021, 07:21:30 PM
Hi Psy,
for what I see all the details of these drawings are right, but some are put together in questionable way.
Zavod 30 produced Il-2s starting from 1942, with wooden wings and rear fuselage.
The singleseater with metallic wings and rear fuselage can represent a plane produced in Factory 18 in the first half of 1941, but the configuration of the guns and the lack of the light on the right wing is wrong for this timeframe.
For a plane of mid 1941 the guns have to be modified in this way:
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il-2early1941/allgreen2-4/il2-sp-fm-amv-3view-allgreen2-4.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il2-red2b.jpg)

For planes of late 1941 or 1942, the conformation of the wing is as that of the kit, apart for the ailerons. The rear fuselage was always wooden after the summer of 1941 (apart for some postwar Il-2M3).

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/il2-1942/underwingz18.jpg)

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/latemetalwing-under.jpg)

It can be that metallic ailerons as those of the kit, but without balance weight, were still in production for some time in late 1941 or early 1942.  Fabric covered ailerons would have been more representative for 1942 planes.

(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il2-camo/germans/il2-sp-fl-aml-3view-col-z18-red4.jpg)

Regards
Massimo



Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on January 16, 2021, 10:02:54 PM
Massimo, Rodionov define more then 120 serial modifications. Until he publishes the book, no one can figure out this crap. On a britmodeller, someone irritated him a lot, so he will have an extra incentive to finish writing a book.


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2021, 07:07:29 AM
Hi Psy,
so Rodionov is writing a book on Il-2. Interesting. But in the meanwhile he could answer on that forum, isn't it?


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on January 17, 2021, 08:59:56 AM
Hi Psy,
so Rodionov is writing a book on Il-2. Interesting. But in the meanwhile he could answer on that forum, isn't it?

No, just only reads sometimes.
I have known about the book for 15 years, but he has been working on it for 40 years. He is an elderly man, maybe he will finish it, or maybe not.


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2021, 12:08:33 PM
I hope he'll do it of course. Does he exactly know when the metallic ailerons (type without counterweights) were replaced with fabric-skinned ones on production line of Zavod 18?


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on January 17, 2021, 02:47:50 PM
I hope he'll do it of course. Does he exactly know when the metallic ailerons (type without counterweights) were replaced with fabric-skinned ones on production line of Zavod 18?
Ask him https://www.facebook.com/irodiono


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 17, 2021, 03:26:03 PM
Does he read English?
Do you know his personal mail? I haven't a Facebook account.


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: John Thompson on January 18, 2021, 03:54:06 PM
This is the same Ivan Rodionov who compiled the chronology of Soviet aviation:
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/aviaprom/about/

"Contacts" gives his email address as:
irodiono@mail.ru

The missing letter "v" seems to be correct - that's how it shows on the link. Probably an 8-character limit on the personal part of the address, the same reason my personal email address is missing a letter "o".

John


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: righidan on February 13, 2021, 01:02:27 PM
Dear Friends,
   Recently it was discussed what are the most accurate scale drawings for the Il-2, and Mr. Linevitch said that the old drawings made by Prof. Ivan Rodionov that appeared in Modelist Konstructor dozens of years ago, are still the most accurate.
   I have just received the following drawings from Prof. Rodionov that has permitted them to be published on Massimo site, as public domain.
   They have been made using a lot of new material from many sources, collected in recent years.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50938573472_bb296a679f_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50937775398_be09967da3_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50938465706_4cf6019bb5_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50938465696_ef88bcf494_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50938573427_6bdf2c7b00_b.jpg)


   Just one caveat: as I have well learnt studying the I-16, the variations of Russian airplanes that can be distinguished externally, are many.
   For the Il-2, the variations are probably about THREE HUNDRED!
   And the main ones are more than ONE HUNDRED, so this drawing is just representative for one of these versions in general with correct dimensions and shape. It should be extended with rivets, bolts and some small details for the certain plant and material used as well as with the plant number and the production date.
   I suppose that we all hope that many more will follow, but as it is a long and complicated work, we all have to use the virtue of patience.
Best regards
Daniele Righi


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: John Thompson on February 13, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
Impressive - thank you very much! I'll hope to save these and resize them to 1/72 scale if necessary.

I'm also interested in all those I-16 variations - is any of that published or posted somewhere?  :o

Best regards;
John


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2021, 04:03:51 PM
Hi Daniele,
thank you for the drawings, they look really excellent.  It's good to know that the documents on this plane will have an important addition.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on February 13, 2021, 05:03:22 PM
Wow, great!


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2021, 09:29:12 PM
Really. Eventually I can add a reply to the post on the kit Zvezda on britmodeller, but I can't find it between the reviews any more.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on February 13, 2021, 10:17:00 PM
Really. Eventually I can add a reply to the post on the kit Zvezda on britmodeller, but I can't find it between the reviews any more.
Regards
Massimo

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235061310-148-ilyushin-il-2-shturmovik-family-by-zvezda-released/page/5/&tab=comments#comment-3938893


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2021, 10:51:08 PM
Thank you, I've posted a link to this topic.
But I still wait to see a photo of this variation with counterweights on a wing with this armament.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: learstang on February 14, 2021, 12:45:54 AM
Thank you for posting that drawing of the Il-2!

Best Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Psy06 on February 14, 2021, 08:05:37 AM
Thank you, I've posted a link to this topic.
But I still wait to see a photo of this variation with counterweights on a wing with this armament.
Regards
Massimo
There may be no photographs, many things are restored according to drawings and reports of factories, lists of changes in design were published in these reports. There are still design change bulletins that came as an attachment to a specific datasheet or instruction manual. The bulletins sometimes contained pictures and drawings. I suppose Rodionov got the detailed changelog across all factories, otherwise where did 300 modifications come from. To get an exhaustive archive of photographic materials on such a number of differences is simply beyond the limits of human strength.

I will give an example of how I myself reconstructed many years ago the appearance of the SB M-105 in the version of a dive bomber.

At first, there were only a small number of photographs from books and the Internet, which made me think that the planes in these photographs do not fit any description or just mention in books and magazines. I made a list of the oddities in the appearance of these planes and began to look for references in archival correspondence. Then I found a mention in Maslov's book about dive experiments. This led me to believe that the planes in the photo have features associated with diving. I started looking for archival texts related to dive and SB. And I found it turned out that dive bombers were being built in series in large numbers. Then I found a list of changes for №22 plant, which said what exactly was changed in serial production. And in conclusion, I found a detailed description of these changes in the one of technical description of the SB. Nothing separately described the SB m105 dive bomber as it was in reality, in order to get a complete picture it was necessary to add a huge amount of scattered data, and only then the puzzle was formed :)

The situation is a bit of the opposite, but the bottom line is that the reconstruction was essentially done according to documents, not a photo. And the key photos were found much later and fully confirmed my description, a hug from such photos was a photo of a pilot cockpit with a gunsight, the presence of which I described fully analytically. Although of course in some places the photos played a role, for example, I first identified in the photo of the cockpits the presence of rocket firing controls, and only much later was comprehensive information on this issue found.

This is about such an airplane.

(https://warspot-asset.s3.amazonaws.com/articles/pictures/000/058/725/content/001-da877005a33d7b26d412dafa7f188a99.jpg)

Source - https://warspot.ru/12486-bit-tanki-protivnika-do-polnogo-ih-unichtozheniya?fbclid=IwAR3Qp_pMRD7_TQ09ErlHjwZsIkVaMMCKbNKo2mQ4AlqRcfcbCKhGP-sYLWo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: righidan on February 14, 2021, 11:26:22 AM
Dear friends,
   I have to ask for your patience, as I did not explained me well.
   The drawings I received from Prof. Rodionov represent the shape of the single seater as accurately as possible, but as a synthetic image of the several types of single-seater Il-2 simultaneously.
   It does not correspond to a particular aircraft but is aimed to show the shape and dimensions.
   So it has an unrealistic combination of large bomb loading hatches, Vya-23 cannons and the counter-weights on both external and internal ailerons.
   We will have to wait for drawings corresponding to a certain plant with a plant number and the time of production and use.
   I enclose a photo of an Il-2 with a combination of Vya and both counter-weights.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50942205742_5f999bc114_z.jpg)
   I must say that Mr. Linevitch post tell us a lot of how research must be done, and how archival research is a fundamental part of it.
   To get near the truth we must collect many information from many sources, and compare them without prejudice and always ready to learn new things.
Regards
Daniele


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: John Thompson on February 14, 2021, 04:41:29 PM
Very interesting, and thank you for all the information - it's much appreciated! I suppose we'll never have an Il-2 "encyclopedia" with all of those 300 variants detailed, or even the ~100 main ones...  :'( Jason, if you need something to do... ;)

John


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 14, 2021, 09:02:50 PM
Hi Daniele,
thank you for the clarification.
The image is very interesting and unusual, the small stars and the shining propeller give the idea of a prewar livery. Have you other photos of the same plane or other informations on it?
I suspect that this plane was built as a testbed many months before the operative use of the VYa-23 guns , so it still had some early characteristics.

Hi Psy,
your work of research on the SB 2M105 was well done and the chips of the puzzle went together.  One has to make a comparison of all the available sources. Of course, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
Late SB are important, it's a pity that there is not an adequate kit of these versions. I hoped that ICM would have continued their SB releases, but it was not so.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Most accurate Il-2 plans?
Post by: learstang on February 15, 2021, 03:13:37 AM
Very interesting, and thank you for all the information - it's much appreciated! I suppose we'll never have an Il-2 "encyclopedia" with all of those 300 variants detailed, or even the ~100 main ones...  :'( Jason, if you need something to do... ;)

John

Someday, John, someday! I would love to revisit my book on the Il-2. I keep a running list of additions to make to it, and I would love to do a truly comprehensive book where each and every variant is described, textually, and has corresponding line drawings and colour profiles. Again, someday...

Best Regards,

Jason