Sovietwarplanes

the site

http://ava.org.ru/iap.html (http://ava.org.ru/iap.html)  is a gift that keeps giving.

Having image searched via google,  a few fascinating picture have been posted. 

From the few available photos, the vast majority of Lend-Lease types retained their delivery colours, and these were the stand schemes for the type.

But, as more photos emerge, example of VVS repaints emerge.    From a model builder or profiler  point of view, what follows will be bother fascinating and frustrating, as most are only partial images.

This is a good example

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/179/hurricane-babiy.jpg)

captioned (the Cyrillic seems to cause a posting error)
Babiy Vasily Panteleimonovich at the Hurricane fighter.

note the very non RAF camo pattern, and the light upper part of the canopy hood framing, the canopy area being the part usually in Middle Stone,  but the dark lower rail, which is the same tone as the paint on the fuselage below.    

from http://ava.org.ru/iap/179.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/179.htm)

another image from the 179 IAP is this, well known, but note under cockpit, and to a dark patch to the left of the man refuelling. This also look to have the Soviet made air filter, but no sign of Soviet guns.

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/179/hurricane-tz.jpg)

next

http://ava.org.ru/shap/17g.htm (http://ava.org.ru/shap/17g.htm)

(http://ava.org.ru/shap/17g/hurricane-16.jpg)

White 16 is great find, but the Hurricane in front is of note, as that is not an RAF pattern, though it has elements of the RAF pattern.   The plane has been regunned with VVS weapons.
On possibility, it is was originally in a desert scheme, and the lighter Middle Stone has been repainted with green. (this occurred in the RAF with desert finish aircraft sent to India/Burma, and in in Tunisia Italy)

Very very interesting photos of Hurricanes.

Are you thinking  to a British repainting of non standard pattern? Could it be that they altered only the area where the identificative codes were deleted?

The lighter shade repainted with green? What do you think of the light shade still visible on the photo? The sharp demarcation line between upper and lower surface suggests that this is a British repainting, Soviet repainting are usually rough.  Could it be a dark green-ocean grey repainting with non standard pattern?

Thank you for sharing the images.
Massimo

No, I'm suggesting that a Hurricane supplied in desert scheme, and there are examples in VVS service, has been repainted with VVS colours.
The partly painted canopy suggest this.  The photo looks like it's been cropped, a larger view would allow a better idea.   Anyway,  see my next post.


"One possibility, it is was originally in a desert scheme, and the lighter Middle Stone has been repainted with green. (this occurred in the RAF with desert finish aircraft sent to India/Burma, and in in Tunisia Italy)"


One other possibility is it is a Temperate Land Scheme repainted in the UK with Day Fighter Scheme, using a mixed grey.
 '16' in the background looks to be in Temperate Land Scheme.  

As with anything of this nature, there is an element of guesswork, but all these images are new too me, I only found them by using google to image search ava.or.ru for Hurricane, or the cyrillic, and though this was a good place to discuss them.

67 IAP

http://ava.org.ru/iap/67.htm (http://ava.org.ru/iap/67.htm)

(http://ava.org.ru/iap/67/hurricane_19_32.jpg)

This  image despite being not great quality does show what look to be a complete repaint, neither 19 or 32 look to be in any RAF pattern.
The picture is murky, but maybe they are green with black disruptive?

There is a profile, but  I'd dismiss it as junk,  I can think of one photo of an RAF Hurricane with a non standard disruptive pattern.

Of note is the RAF start cart in the lower left of the second photo. But to the main topic; it makes sense to me that when an aircraft goes through depot modification, such as the substitution of weapons which might entail cutting panels, that fresh paint would be applied. So why not VVS colors?

The light color of the closer Hurricane has low contrast with undersurfaces. If it was a Soviet color, could seem AMT-1, not green, to my eye.  I think that it could be a British DG + OG camo with non standard pattern, or a Soviet imitation of it. The alternative could be that they repainted a DG+DH plane with AMT-1 and 4, brown and green, so with a much lighter shade of brown.
The sharp demarcation between upper and lower surfaces suggests that the work was done by a British crew.
Regards
Massimo

This aircraft has been modified in Soviet hands as it has their armament.  The new paint scheme has been applied after the modifications have been made.  Supporting this, the pattern, particularly around the cockpit, bears no relation to any British scheme.

Could the lighter colour not be any green but the VVS light brown/tan/milky coffee colour?  I understand that this would be unusual on a fighter.

The modifications for the VVS guns were minimal,  most were internal, with small plate added under the wing. No need for an extensive repaint, other so modified do not show repainting.  The plane in front of '16' does not look to have the standard RAF pattern, which is why I mention it.     
 

I have been trying to post more on the topic but keep getting error messages.   I even tried a posting, the one on the 67 IAP, and editing in extra details.

Not sure this will work...

I did manage to edit in an image on the 67 IAP above.

This  image despite being not great quality does show what look to be a complete repaint, neither 19 or 32 look to be in any RAF pattern.
The picture is murky, but maybe they are green with black disruptive?
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/67/hurricane_19_32.jpg)

There is a profile,
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/67/hurricane_19_prof.png)

 but  I'd dismiss it as junk,  I can think of one photo of an RAF Hurricane with a non standard disruptive pattern.
The underside is idea is interesting,  one possibility,  aircraft delivered in desert scheme, hence the repaint,  and the dark undersides.
Some aircraft ended up with quite dark under surfaces,
Azure Blue has a purple cast,  and Dark Mediterranean blue is quite dark.
an example, in colour of Dark Med Blue, is seen here on the 112Sq P-40
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Flight_Lieutenant_A_R_Costello_of_No._112_Squadron_standing_by_his_Curtiss_Kittyhawk_Mk_I_at_Sidi_Heneish%2C_Egypt%2C_April_1942._COL196.jpg)

Note possibly a red star on the spinner tip of 19

winter42/43
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/67/hurricane_22.jpg)

while there are photos of VVS Hurricane in winter camo, they are not that common

Detail points from enlarging the image
the  22 is on a dark background,

the canopy frames are dark, so not repainted, the aerial mast is dark as well.

wing star is visible,  a suggestion that this aircraft was still in an RAF scheme before the winter white.

The relatively dark underside despite reflected light from the snow suggest perhaps Medium Sea Grey undersides, though this
could be like 19 and 32 above,. and have had a full upper repaint with a darker desert blue underside?

the worn appearance of the white suggest this is the temporary distemper.

Even enlarged I can't make out the tailcode of the Hurricane in the background,

Hi,
interesting image.
I don't think that the planes had tropical painting becaus of the absence of the tropical air filter.

The closest British camouflage that I 've found, at least on the nose sides,  is this:


(https://www.super-hobby.it/zdjecia/7/9/5/23757_rd.jpg)

but green and brown looks the reverse of the photo. Is reversing colors  compatible with British standard?

Good guess for the star on the spinner.

Hi Massimo

Posting seems to be hit and miss.

it was removable.  
You could even have not intake tube and it would work, the Hurricane manual says it was to be removed and piece of gauze mesh fitted.



The profile shows the B pattern.  This stopped being used in early 1941, and after that all Hurricane used the A pattern, as shown on the factory diagram.  the A and B pattern were mirror images of the same pattern.  
Very few Mk.II Hurricanes would have been painted in the B pattern.

The factory applied pattern was closely followed.  19 does not have anything like it.  
this is the factory scheme

(https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/var/resizes/Camouflage-%26-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane/Hawker%20Hurricane%20Camo%20%26%20Marks_Page_19-960.jpg?m=1608580010)

note the dimensions from part of the airframe, it was closely followed.

diagram from here
https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane (https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane)
while it only covers NW Europe, much is applicable to VVS Hurricanes, and it does illustrate RAF standards, and variations.

Occasionally you see reversed colours.   But, as I said I can only think of one photo of an RAF Hurricane in a non standard pattern.
this one
(https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/Hawker-Hurricane/images/Hawker-Hurricane-Ia-RAF-W9232-in-flight-01.jpg)

Possibly being used in camouflage trials, it also has non standard upper wing roundels, I have seen other images of this plane, so I should follow up the experimental scheme angle.


One final though on the underside of '19',  is that if this is VVS repaint,  note that the 'keel' just infront of the tailwheel is light tone, while the UC doors are quite dark,  but I know that late war the Luftwaffe started painting the UC doors of Fw190D  in an upper surface colour for ground concealment purposes.
The keel was a removable panel, and maybe from another aircraft.

Finally, the colours used do seem to match their surroundings well.    

I'm trying to explore possibilities and make suggestions based on previous practices I have observed.

Hopefully I can dig out the other unusual looking Hurricanes from ava.org.ru, I was very frustrating not being able to post!

 

Hi,
I don't think that the landing gear door was painted in green, it was nor British nor Soviet use. I suppose that the left wing could have had black undersurface.
I see that the lighter camo color was lighter than the star on the fuselage, this would be strange if the lighter color was AMT-4 green. Maybe the plane could have been extensively repainted with British colors to delete the markings, and the camo was restored in non standard pattern. Or who knows, maybe it was partially painted with Soviet colors... Is it known the time of the photo?

Just some quick comments:

The P-40 is not in Dark Mediterranean Blue but possibly Light Med. Blue.  It would often be said to have been in Azure Blue but to my eye it is a little too dark in hue.

The use of a black port wing had been abandoned long before Hurricanes were sent to Russia.  I suspect this is an artefact of the film, but the wheel door does look dark.

I suggest that W9232 is an old airframe in use for second line duties and has been touched-up locally rather than an official repaint or camouflage trials.

test

To me this look like a full upper repaint,  while Temperate Land Scheme and Day Fighter Scheme were acceptable to the VVS,  the Desert Scheme would only work

in Southern Russia,  which would explain a more extensive repaint perhaps.

I refer you back to the photo in the first post
(http://ava.org.ru/iap/179/hurricane-babiy.jpg)

note the very non RAF camo pattern, and the light upper part of the canopy hood framing, the canopy area being the part usually in Middle Stone,  but

the dark lower rail, which is the same tone as the paint on the fuselage below.  This is a very good candidate for  VVS repaint from a Desert scheme

The different appearance of the star and underside can be caused by different films and lens filters,   and the 'dark' UC door maybe just a lighting effect,

looking again, the sunlight is coming from behind, onto the starboard side, so that maybe shadow.

I don't know if you can ask PGmonster where the 67 IAP was based?   

The other possibility, is a VVS repaint after a winter scheme using permanent white?

Anyway,   I'm very happy that I can post again, and discuss these fascinating images, hopefully yet more photos will appear and some new schemes will be

documented.

cheers
T

Hi,
I see the light frames.
The ventral cooler of the latest photo doesn't seem exceedingly dark, although being on shadow.
About the black wings, they were on some Tomahawk sent to Russia, so why not on Hurricanes?
Are all these photos from the same unit?
The camouflage is sharp, so it looks painted by brush. This could be a point for the use of Soviet colors on upper surfaces.
Regards
Massimo

I suspect the US production line painted the P-40s black underwing, and the length of the supply chain meant that examples arrived in the UK for forwarding to the USSR without being repainted en route.  However the Hurricanes that went to Russia were either new off the line or rebuilds that had recently passed through the workshops, so would have been painted in the current RAF schemes.  Which wouldn't perhaps rule out some examples, but I don't recall seeing any in the photos I've seen.  Shadow appears to be a likelier explanation.

Usually British painted and marked the planes with British colors and the red star before delivering them to SU. Is it possible that they delivered them in desert camouflage?

Yes.  There are a few photos showing Desert camouflage, they were in this thread but are unavailable.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=23.0 (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=23.0)

Sadly none showed the full markings.  Which is why I suggest this as a reason for a repaint. The photo on this page is not from the 67 IAP,  I posted the unit  link on page 1  captioned (the Cyrillic seems to cause a posting error)
Babiy Vasily Panteleimonovich at the Hurricane fighter.


from (http://ava.org.ru/iap/179.htm)