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Sovietwarplanes

Modeling Soviet Warplanes => Colors, schemes, & research => Topic started by: steph40 on February 12, 2008, 11:06:02 PM



Title: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on February 12, 2008, 11:06:02 PM
Hello all,
 
I'm a French plastic modeler and I would like to build the Vicente Beltran (Spanish Republican pilot) La-5. I found an illustration in the Osprey of the Aces Nr 56 but I would like to know what could you tell me about this aircraft ?
So, another question, what kind of P-39 is here to represent a Gulaev aircraft: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=269.0
Is it a P-39N or a P-39Q with pods removed (like Rechkalov aircraft ?) ? This building is in my future projects too.
 
Thank you in advance, best regards
 
St?phane


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: zhirohov on February 15, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/f/336/1/1/5


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on February 17, 2008, 06:37:45 PM
Hi,

Thank you for the link... This illustration is the same as the Osprey Nr56.

Cheers
Steph40


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on May 28, 2011, 03:09:11 AM
Hello,

I'm back after a long period spent for my son, my job and modeling kits too...
I continue my old post to ask a question about camo scheme of Vincente Beltran La-5 "white 84"... What is the most probable colors for the camo scheme: AMT4, AMT6 and AMT7 or a green with dark green and light blue ?
Please, I need your advice.

TIA, best regards
Steph


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Apex1701 on May 28, 2011, 03:21:08 AM
Hi Steph,

VVS colors research shos that there is no green-dark green camo.
AMT-4 (green), AMT-6 (black) and AMT-7 (light blue) is correct.
See : http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html

and : http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&hilit=vvs&start=50
The table on page 3 of that subject.



Jean
PS: je parle fran?ais alors tu peux m'envoyer un message perso si n?cessaire.



Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on May 28, 2011, 07:57:08 AM
Hi Steph,
well this decoration is very original, I never see it before!
Is there any pics of the plane?
What did you think about doing the decals?
take a look at the web site to see the work Massimo done about the La-5; go inside each part, you will find a plenty of informations:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/la5.html#cowling (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/la5.html#cowling)

I imagine that your plane was paint in AMT4/AMT6 (green black)
All the La-5 I seen were painted like that, exepting the white painted...
It had to be like this one of the 88 guard fighter regiment, I also imagine the lightning could be white instead of yellow

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/chkalov/chkalov84pr.jpg)

French modeler? in which forum do you post ? with which nickname?

Xan

ps:Tout comme Apex, je parle  fran?ais tu peux me contacter par MP.
    



Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Apex1701 on May 28, 2011, 06:17:39 PM
Hi Steph,

Use of AMT-4 and 6 was ordered almost at the time of Barbarossa and since La-5 enty in service was somewhere in 1942
they were painted per government's instructions; AMT-4, 6 and 7.

State of the art research shows that AII green and Dark Green did not exists.
There was a AII Green called AII Zashch. (zashchitnyi) that was a gloss camouflage green.
There was also AII (svetlo goluboi)  that was a gloss light blue for undersides.
Both were in use between 1937-1941.

Esp?rant que ?a aide.

Jean


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: KL on May 29, 2011, 02:30:27 AM
There was a AII Green called AII Zashch. (zashchitnyi) that was a gloss camouflage green.
There was also AII (svetlo goluboi)  that was a gloss light blue for undersides.
Both were in use between 1937-1941.

A small correction:  AII Light Blue was in use 1940-1941.
It was used for undersides of planes painted according to May 1940 directive (solid "Protective" green top) and for planes painted according to 1941 camouflage directive (AMT-4, AMT-6 top).
Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on May 29, 2011, 10:16:25 AM
hi every body,
Steph told me by PM he was not sure the inscription of the beltran La-5 was really wroten in spanish.
I find quite strange the inscription :
"Viva la revolution socialista en S.S.S.R."
logicaly, it had to be:
"Viva la revolucion socialista en U.R.S.S."

Xan


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on May 29, 2011, 12:00:22 PM
Hello,

Thank you both for your answer. The color is definitively AMT4-6-7.
Here are the 2 options regarding this aircraft (pictures found on the web, I think the first is from a Polish book (Ajaks), the second one from Osprey book).
Text in Russian...?
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9795/img0801x.jpg)

or text in Spanish...?
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/591/img0800p.jpg)
But like Xan said, why isn't written URSS (Uni?n de Rep?blicas Socialistas Sovi?ticas in Spanish) ?

TIA, regards
St?ph



Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 29, 2011, 02:26:38 PM

Hi,
according to Orlov, the AII light blue was utilized even after 1941 in parallel with AMT-7.
Quote
In parallel with the AMT-7 was used the old dope for a second cover EN Sv.gol. - light-blue colour. The colour of it - really a light-blue, lighter than the AMT-7, almost without shades of gray. Academy of St. Nakraski goal. Albom in 1948 not because by this time it is no longer used, but retained the earlier archival specimens and the remains of the shell of the emergency aircraft.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: KL on May 30, 2011, 07:54:54 PM
Text about Spanish pilots in VVS was published in Aviatsiya i vremya magazine No 2002-03

http://lib.rus.ec/b/206139/read

Profiles that appeared there are unreliable. :-[  Artist S. Vahrushev is now well known for his illustrations for the new book about Korean war Mig-15s (again mostly made up).

(http://lib.rus.ec/i/39/206139/pic_62.jpg)

IMHO, Beltran's La-5 is not well documented and all profiles are result of artis's guesswork.

KL   


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on May 30, 2011, 09:01:54 PM
Thanks you Konstantin for this information.
So we will not know much more about this plane...
Do you know if there is other exemple of spanish republican pilot's planes in USSR who wore inscription in spanish ?

Xan


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on May 30, 2011, 10:59:56 PM
Thank you all for your answers, your help and your precisions...
Xan, finally, my La-5 will be like you want: AMT4/6/7, text in Spanish (apart SSSR)... I think it will be my next build, I'm gonig to finish my W. Oesau Bf 109F-2 first...

Still thank you all. Best regards
Steph


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Troy Smith on May 31, 2011, 12:04:53 AM
Thank you all for your answers, your help and your precisions...
Xan, finally, my La-5 will be like you want: AMT4/6/7, text in Spanish (apart SSSR)... I think it will be my next build, I'm gonig to finish my W. Oesau Bf 109F-2 first...

Still thank you all. Best regards
Steph

Hi Steph

not the same, but on Aeromaster sheet 48-086  there  is a scheme for  Francisco Mereno, showing an inscription in Russian. 
I know Aeromaster are know as 'errormaster', but in the articles below it worth noting that the Spanish Pilots were not 'in favour' before the war, so Russian may be more likely. 

 http://www.squadron.com/ProfileDetails.asp?item=AN48086

(http://www.squadron.com/images/profiles/AeroMaster/jpg48/AN48086a.jpg)

build here
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/cleaver/ussr/tmcla5.htm

some articles http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://spanish.ruvr.ru/2007/08/09/1100147.html&ei=eQnkTYToBMmxhQedu_HpBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DFrancisco%2BMero%25C3%25B1o.%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DK5p%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns


http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://estacionmir.com/Historia/eventos/Merono_Es.html&ei=8QzkTY2qKca2hAfA_eDqBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DFrancisco%2BMero%25C3%25B1o%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DfJq%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D972%26bih%3D637%26prmd%3Divns

may give you some more leads on Spanish VVS pilots.

HTH
T


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on May 31, 2011, 10:42:43 PM
Hello Troy,

I know and I have this decal sheet. The first aircraft is a La-5 from 960IAP-125IAD early in 1943. This aircraft is often showed as the one flown by Francisco Merono Pellicer. From my knowledge, there is no evidence that she was is own but Pellicer was in the unit when this photo has been taken...
The inscription in Russian is "Squadron named for Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Chekalin".
This aircraft is in my future projects too.
I built a model of a Spanish Ace: the I-15 "Chato" flown by Juan Lario Sanchez from 2a Escuadrilla de Caza early in 1938 (1/48 from Special Hobby).
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8145/polikarpovi15chato2ecel.jpg)

Thank you for your help. It's very appreciable to feel himself helped, I love this "little" World of Modellers...
regards
Steph


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 31, 2011, 11:12:51 PM
Really good photo of a really good model.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on June 01, 2011, 08:09:14 AM
waoh! great model!
colours are as I imagine, what did you use ?
Pascal and I we have to do it to...
it is not very easy to mount isn't it?
the jiont of the fuselage and the upper wing scare me!
bravo, vraiment!
Xan


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Pascal on June 01, 2011, 10:48:50 AM
Yes, it's a very beautiful model ! I like it. As you can see Xan, it is possible to make it ! ;D


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on June 02, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Hello,
 this pics was in anpaper about Luis Lavin spanish pilot in the VVS during the GPW:

(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt189/JoseCeuta/La595LuisLavin0.jpg)

there is nothing written behind, and in a spanish forum, they wonder if this pic represent his plane or it's a generic La-5 pic...

Xan


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on June 02, 2011, 09:59:28 PM
Hello,

Thank you very much for your nice comments... If Massimo permits it, I'll post others photos on "general modeling".
Xan, I know this early model La-5FN, I don't know if she was flown by Luis Lavin but I built this model (1/48 Zvezda kit) to describe the early La-5FN "white 95" flown by Kirill A. Evstigneev in 240 IAP, 302 IAD  from Autumn 1943 to Spring 1944...
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7779/img0215bp.jpg)

http://aces.safarikovi.org/biography/sssr/sssr/jevstignejev.html
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/evstign.html

Still thank you for your researches Xan, amicalement
St?ph


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: xan on June 02, 2011, 10:32:02 PM
Hi Steph,
what a pity, it's not the lavin plane...
hey nice models , congratulaitons. What paint did you use ?
I've got this model, was it a pleasure to mount ?
Xan


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: steph40 on June 03, 2011, 06:19:14 PM
waoh! great model!
colours are as I imagine, what did you use ?
Pascal and I we have to do it to...
it is not very easy to mount isn't it?
the jiont of the fuselage and the upper wing scare me!
bravo, vraiment!
Xan

Hello Xan,

I don't remember very well the colors I used to paint this model... I think the base was Humbrol 116, 117 and 80 for uppersurfaces and Humbrol 65 and 89 for undersurfaces.

Hi Steph,
what a pity, it's not the lavin plane...
hey nice models , congratulaitons. What paint did you use ?
I've got this model, was it a pleasure to mount ?
Xan

Regarding the La-5FN, The AMT-7 is Humbrol 65 and Humbrol 89. The AMT-11 is "AMT-7" with 40% black and AMT-12 is "AMT-7" with 70% black.
Lots of problems for the assembling of the wings with the fuselage !!! Angry, I broke the model to begin another one... :-[ Finally, I changed the step of building: I glued all the cockpit in the fuselage, closed the fuselage and glued all on the wings, no problem...

Thanks for your comment, best regards
St?ph


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: mholly on June 03, 2011, 11:35:30 PM
Quote
The AMT-11 is "AMT-7" with 40% black and AMT-12 is "AMT-7" with 70% black
And still you were afraind to make it darker ;)
Nice job, indeed.
Quote
Lots of problems for the assembling of the wings with the fuselage !!!
That's what I experienced and ultimately gave up on the kit (didn't throw it out though).
It's amazing that all reviews I read are praising the kit so highly for accuracy AND construction!
I think they're being hipocritical. Kit is over-engineered, not good in my book.
Salut,
Mario


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Apex1701 on June 04, 2011, 04:02:09 AM
Hi Steph,

Tr?s beau r?sultat.
Very nice result.

Comme Mario j'ai rencontr? plusieurs probl?mes d'ajustements.
Like Mario I had lot of problems.

Voici une photo du mien r?alis? il y 3 ans.
Here's mine done 3 years ago.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/Apex1701/La-5fn/dscf1786.jpg)

Jean


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: mholly on June 04, 2011, 04:12:58 AM
Quote
Here's mine done 3 years ago.
when you were still EP's follower?... :D :) ;) ;D :P
Very nice! Should be Popkov's?
Mario


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Apex1701 on June 04, 2011, 04:33:32 AM
Quote
Here's mine done 3 years ago.
when you were still EP's follower?... :D :) ;) ;D :P
Very nice! Should be Popkov's?
Mario
Yes and no.
At that time I was beginning to see that something was wrong with these colors.
For the AMT-12 I used WEM's mixed with red as suggested on EP's VVS forum by a guy named Airacobra (Ilya Grinberg?).
It did indeed remove a bit of the green from this paint.

And of course it's Popkov's. What a great pilot!!

Jean


Title: Re: About Vicente Beltran La-5 & Gulayev P-39 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 04, 2011, 01:12:55 PM
Hi all,
really beautiful models, and well photographed. Thank you for sharing these images.
New photos of models will be welcome, of course.
Please, if you post photos of models or discussions, try to include only one type of plane, because I'm reordering the posts according to this criteria.
Regards
Massimo