Sovietwarplanes

Post-war Aviation - The Jet Age => Sukhois => Topic started by: John Thompson on February 19, 2008, 11:50:19 PM



Title: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on February 19, 2008, 11:50:19 PM
Go here for sprue, decal sheet, and instructions images:
http://www.trumpeter-china.com/war513/products/en_message.asp?id=557

I gave in to *pure greed* and ordered one from HobbyLink Japan, so I'll post a bit of a review when it arrives! Soon, I hope!!!

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 20, 2008, 10:17:28 PM
Hi John, :)
it looks attractive. However, for what I know, the model in 1/48 has some shape defects, probably this will copy the same ones. The nose should be cut and moved a bit downward.
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on February 21, 2008, 01:00:21 AM
Hi John, :)
it looks attractive. However, for what I know, the model in 1/48 has some shape defects, probably this will copy the same ones. The nose should be cut and moved a bit downward.
Massimo

Hi Massimo! That's exactly what I was thinking/fearing - the 1/72 kit will be a smaller version of the 1/48 kit, mistakes included. I didn't want to say it before I see the new kit with my own eyes, but the 1/48 Su-15TM was lacking the downward bend on the leading edge of the outer wing panels. In the images that I posted the link for yesterday, this is hard to see, but I *think* the same error is there. This image shows what I mean, though not well:
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/sukhoi/su-15tm/ds_su-15tm_102.jpg

Here's the URL for the whole walkaround - it may be helpful to those building the new kit:
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/sukhoi/su-15tm/index.htm

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Renato71 on February 22, 2008, 05:31:44 AM
Hi,
Thanks for news. I have 2 of 1/48 kits, single seater T and two seater UM. From the pics on Trumpeter site I'm pretty sure it is scaled down kit.

Sadly, it has many flaws, most of them small, but few big ones. The biggest one is with nose, which is not tilted down. Overall length is slightly incorrect (best fit for Su-15UT), slightly wrong shape of the wings and vertical stabilizer. There is one odd occurrence: all panelings from top view are about 95% correct, but about 50% of panelings from side view are incorrect :S Most notably on the nose which are in grave need of rescribing.

On some Russian site I found additional comments about lower part of the fuselage for which they claim to be seriously incorrect. So far I did not study this part of the fuselage in depth, but wheel bays look too shallow, so I think this could be connected with the fuselage shape.

However, it could be worst. It is still about 90% correct, and considering the fact it is the only kit of one of my most favorite aircraft, I'm quite happy with this kit. Started work on it, but delayed.. You know the feeling...


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 22, 2008, 07:31:32 PM
Hi, :)
In 1/72 scale there are some alternatives, as Amodel and Ves. At present time I have a Ves kit that looks accurate and well detailed, but probably it's very difficult to build.
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on February 22, 2008, 07:48:23 PM
Hi Massimo! Yes, you are right - the VES kit is extremely difficult to build! The Amodel kit is much easier, but I was hoping that the Trumpeter kit would be not only very accurate, but also very easy to build. We will see when it arrives - maybe next week, if I am lucky. Right now it's in transit, somewhere between Japan and Canada!

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 04, 2008, 01:02:22 AM
The new Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM arrived from HLJ today. Here are a few comments, but this isn?t an in-depth review by any means. To begin with, Trumpeter did try to catch the two details mentioned previously in this thread, but unfortunately, they blew both of them.
(1) Nose cone (radar housing) ? It does have the slight downward angle of the real aircraft. However, Trumpeter have made the joint between the cone and the fuselage vertical (in other words, at 90 degrees to the fuselage datum line), and achieved the angle by molding it into the nose cone itself. In other words, if you stand the cone up on end, it?s tilted, not vertically symmetrical. On the real aircraft, the cone is symmetrical, and the joint between the cone and the fuselage is angled forward at the top so the cone has a downward droop. The fix would probably be to glue the cone on, sand down the joint thoroughly, then rescribe the joint line in its correct, angled location.
(2) Wing leading edges ? again, Trumpeter had sort of the right idea, but they got the details wrong. On the real thing, the downward angle (droop) of the wing leading edges begins where the leading edge sweep angle change occurs between the inner and outer wing panels, inboard of the airflow fence on the upper surface. Trumpeter have done something truly odd-looking, by not only trying to create the drooped effect outboard of this location instead of inboard, but also by drooping not just the leading edge but also most of the outer wing panel! This is difficult to explain, but as I said, it looks very strange. I?m not sure how you could fix this error ? maybe by adapting the wings from the Amodel Su-15TM, which are correct.

The plastic in the fuselage halves of this kit is remarkably thin ? I?ve seen vacuforms with thicker plastic! Trumpeter are trying to help conserve the world?s petrochemical resources, I assume! However, this will make for a very weak joint along the length of the fuselage, and anyone assembling the kit should consider the vacuform-building trick of adding some narrow plastic strips along the inside of the joint line in order to increase the strength of this joint.

A quick comparison with drawings also shows some panel line location errors, but I haven?t had time to go over the kit in that kind of detail. I suspect Trumpeter are planning to use the same fuselage for a future Su-15A kit. In this case, the two errors detailed above will not be a problem, since the ?Flagon A? does not have either of these features! So, Trumpeter Su-15TM bad, Trumpeter Su-15A (possibly) good!

In summary, this kit is a bit of a disappointment. In rating all the existing injection-molded 1/72 Su-15TM kits, I?d say:
VES ? This is the one you want if you can handle an insanely-detailed, difficult-to-build kit, and have the time and skills to bring out the best in it (I certainly didn?t!). This kit is a tribute to the skills of the person who prepared the masters for it with regard to the huge amount of detail ? it seems like every single rivet in the whole aircraft is represented! Lots of dry-fitting and some careful thinking about the assembly sequence is required.
Amodel ? Great accuracy, simpler design than the VES kit; again, lots of dry-fitting needed. Probably the best kit in terms of a compromise among reasonable detail level, acceptable accuracy, and ease of assembly.
Trumpeter ? If you want an easy-to-assemble kit that ?looks like? a Su-15TM, this is probably the best choice. On the other hand, you could probably say the same thing about the old PM (Pioneer?) ?Su-21F?, too! ;)

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2008, 11:13:43 AM
Hi John, :)
thank you for reviewing the kit. I think I won't buy it, probably I'll try to build my VES one, even if I feat that the less that can happen is that a lot of nice rivets will be deleted by sanding. I think to adapt the canopy from a KP Su-7 that is clear and thin (two ones are included in any Su-7).
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 04, 2008, 11:14:48 PM
One more shot at this topic, and then maybe I'll be quiet! First of all, closer examination of what I *think* are the most accurate (or at least the most recent) drawings available has shown me an error in my previous post - the Su-15A ("Flagon A") *did* have a "drooped" nose cone, so the Trumpeter Su-15A will have the same (admittedly minor) inaccuracy in this regard as the Su-15TM kit. These drawings were included with Aviatsiya y Vremya magazine, issue 1/2003. If anyone asks for it, I could post a list of other references with comments, but I won't dump that on here unless someone expresses an interest!

The same drawings show that the panel lines on the sides of the nose of the Su-15TM kit are incorrect for the Su-15TM, but are *accurate* (or at least a lot closer) for the Su-15A! Who knows what goes on in the minds of some kit designers...  ::)

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 05, 2008, 06:55:44 AM
Hi John, :)
if you have some links, I'm interested.
About the side details: probably the piece is common to both versions, and they had to choose which one had to match.
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 06, 2008, 02:06:44 AM
Hi John, :)
if you have some links, I'm interested.
About the side details: probably the piece is common to both versions, and they had to choose which one had to match.
Massimo

Here's a great walkaround, as previously posted:
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/sukhoi/su-15tm/index.htm

Drawings:
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su15.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su15aiv.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su15tm.html

Paper references:
(1) AJ Press Aircraft Monograph No.1, "Su-15", by P.Butowski, V. Pankov, and V. Ponomariev. English text. Lots of detail photos and sketches. Two four-view colour drawings, including camouflaged a/c at Bezrechnaya, 1991-92. Drawings of all main Su-15 variants. Also includes extremely detailed drawings showing text and locations of all stencil markings.
(2) Zlinek magazine, issue 92 (?). English text. Article "Sukhoi Su-15TM 'Flagon'", pages 12/92 to 23/92. Detail photos and sketches, 4 black-and-white profiles, one colour four-view. Drawings for Su-15TM only.
(3) Aviatsiya y Vremya magazine, issue 1/2003. Ukrainian text. 18-page article; photos of aircraft in service, including 3 colour shots; one of these is a camouflaged aircraft as in the 4-view in ref. (1) above. Drawings for Su-15, Su-15TM, Su-15UT, and Su-15UM.
(4) Model Aircraft Monthly magazine, Vol. 2, Issue 2, February 2003. 94-image "Photo Album" walkaround, by Ken Duffey. No drawings.

I think (1) may still be available from AJ Press or other sources; (3) being the most recent, I'm assuming it has the most accurate drawings. I know how hunting down references is one of the joys of modelbuilding; all of the above are useful, but these two are probably the "must have" ones!

Oh, a correction - I've been calling the first version of this interceptor "Su-15A", due to my confusion with the NATO designation "Flagon A". It's correctly called Su-15 (no letter suffix).

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 13, 2008, 01:52:00 AM
From the Cybermodeler site, the 1/72 Trumpeter Su-15 "Flagon A"; scroll down about 1/3 of the page. July release:
http://www.cybermodeler.com/news/news080311a.shtml

Says it's scaled down from the Trumpeter 1/48 kit, so I guess that answers that question!

Includes markings for the "Red Falcons" dsiplay team, for what it's worth.

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: flanker on March 16, 2008, 07:05:30 PM
Hi John,you are rigt,VES is dificult to build but Amodel in not -great accuracy- in fact VES is more accurate(amodel is too short)Ves is based on most accurate drawings(from Zlinek) Amodel used
old AIV or some other draws.Only one thing Amodel has slightly better nose cone.I have VES and Amodel and Neomega conversion(A/T)

And also see what Linden Hill says:
1. Valeriy Pankov's plans for the Polish AJ Press book on the Su-15.
 By Valeriy's own admission these plans were inaccurate as no access
 to Sukhoi blueprints was forthcoming at the time. After Sukhoi did
open up their archives, Valeriy revised his plans for the Su-15
(they appeared in M-Hobby magazine) but did not have the chance to
 revise his 15TM effort. We're delighted to report that Valeriy
Pankov has now had the chance to revise all his plans and they now
represent his definitive effort on the subject. They can now be
found in issue 1/2003 of Aviatsiya y Vremya.

2. Vasiliy Zolotov's plans for Mir Aviatsii. Observers are not
impressed with the guesswork involved in the creation of these plans.
 There are many fine examples of Vasiliy's work in Mir Aviatsii for
 other aircraft types. The Su-15TM however was not the magazine's
finest hour.

3. Vladimir Rudenko's plans. They appeared in both the Czech Zlinek
Magazine and Aeroplan from Belarus. Russian experts have declared
that these plans are the most accurate yet produced and bear
comparison with the Sukhoi OKB's Su-15TM blueprints.

The VES kit is based on Rudenko's plans

And about  trumpeter
-Includes markings for the "Red Falcons" dsiplay team, for what it's worth.-

Red Su-15 newer exsited


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 17, 2008, 01:47:42 AM
Thanks, flanker! That's a big help in making clear which drawings are best. But are you sure there were not a "Red Falcon" red Su-15 display team? I saw a photo a few years ago of one of these aircraft in flight, although it was not a very clear image - it looked like it might have been scanned from a newspaper!

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: flanker on March 17, 2008, 07:12:10 PM
My russian friends say: -"Red Falcon" red Su-15 display team newer existed,trumpeter made mistake-
I will trust them:)


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: John Thompson on March 17, 2008, 09:34:07 PM
Thanks again, flanker. Here's a thread from another forum which says much the same thing:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68719

If you open the image in this thread showing the "Red Falcon" Su-15 artwork, the small photo shown in the bottom left corner is (if I remember correctly) the photo I mentioned previously; however, when I saw it, it was in black and white. Perhaps the artist has colourized it, believing it was a genuine photo of a genuine red Su-15. If nothing else, with the red paint and the green nose cone, a built model of this aircraft would make a nice Christmas decoration... ;)

John


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: flanker on March 18, 2008, 07:16:15 PM
Yes  ;D


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Greg C. on August 04, 2008, 09:13:04 PM
Well, I just obtained Trumpeter's new Su-15 last Friday.  I would say that if you were disappointed in their earlier effort with the 'TM', you probably won't like this one any better.  After reading through John & Flanker's comments and critiques of the earlier kit, i have to concur.  I have the Zlinek article and plans (Rudenko) and have been comparing my "stable" of Flagon kits with these, as well as my other sources.  The error John notes with the nose is indeed repeated in the new kit.  But more distressing, the wings are of incorrect outline, and overall too small.  Also apparent is the fuselage length, which is noticeably too long, and the radome, which was much too large in the TM kit.
All this said, the kit itself is otherwise the nicest yet released of the Su-15.  The detailing and fit are both very good, and it appears assembly with be easy and straight-forward.  I have both the VES and Amodel kits, and the Trumpeter efforts are vastly superior to both of these, despite their superior accuracy.  And on this note, I have to say I have always been a bit skeptical of the practice of comparing three-dimensional model kits to two-dimensional drawings, and declaring them "inaccurate".  As can be readily noted in the case of the Flagon, "accuracy" depends entirely upon what set of plans you compare your kit to, and we as modelers and amateur historians have little or no ability to verify claims of one set of drawings being more accurate than another.  We can only rely on judgments and representations of "experts", which all too often prove to be faulty.  After comparing my different kits with different sets of references and drawings, what I can say definitively is that the Trumpeter offerings do not match-up well at all with the Rudenko drawings as published by Zlinek.  If that is the benchmark for accuracy, then Trumpeter disappointingly falls short.  I just don't know that this is a terribly objective way to determine such a benchmark.


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 05, 2008, 08:03:16 AM
Hi Greg, :)
I agree that drawings shouldn't be considered as unfailable, and that, even if they are demonstrably accurate, a model can be considered good even if it fails to match them. I would check if the supposed defects of the model are visible when compared to photos of the real plane.
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Greg C. on August 15, 2008, 03:03:50 AM
And another thing!!!

I was looking at Modeling Madness tonight, and I noticed reviews they had listed for a couple of after-market resin sets for Trumpeter's Su-15TM, including a replacement vertical tail.  So I hauled out my copy and sure enough, Trumpeter left-off the RWR/ECM "package" mounted right above the brake parachute cone.  D'oh!  Can't believe I missed that!  I really do have to start looking more closely at these things.


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 15, 2008, 08:33:45 AM
Hi Greg, :)
do you know if the kits of VES and Amodel are accurate on this respect?
Massimo


Title: Re: Trumpeter 1/72 Su-15TM
Post by: Greg C. on August 16, 2008, 06:21:33 PM
Yes, both the VES and Amodel kits reflect the accurate tail configuration of the TM.

Apparently Pavla have just released a number of corrections for the Trumpeter TM, which will go a long way toward fixing some of it's big issues.? However, the controversy over the size and outline of the wing remains significant, in my opinion.? The Amodel and VES kits share a virtually identicle wing, with Trumpeter's being much smaller, and of noticably different outline.? The Amodel and VES wings also match the Zlinek plans very well, so again if this is your baseline, Trumpeter will be found wanting.
Another quite noticable mistake Trumpeter made on their 1/48th TM is the size of the airbrakes, and I haven't checked to see if this has been repeated on their 1/72 renditions.? I have Eduard's photoetch set for the 1/48th kit, and am planning to remedy this problem simply be closing-up the brakes, and using the Eduard brass as a scribing template to make new ones.? As I have been unable to find a single photo of an Su-15 parked on the ground with its brakes open, I have to conclude that this condition was at least very rare, so I had no plan of displaying them open anyway!