Sovietwarplanes

Does anyone know why AML is using silver for numerals and other markings on so many of their recent VVS decal sheets? Is this the result of new research?

John

One has to see photos of the originals and decide what it seems, case by case. Some photos really suggest the use of silver, but it's not the rule.
Massimo

I have two AML set of decals for Lend-Lease planes (Hurricane and P-40) in 1/48 and they are very disappointing.Red Stars with silver borders and also the numbers in the same colour,when the photo reveals this is not the case.The known P-40M "white 93" with a sharkmouth,has all the white parts in silver in one of the sets,rendering it useless in my point of view.Greetings:

Martin

Yes, I know the "Conspiracy" of which you speak; I'm just searching for the truth, which I know must be "out there". I assume you've read this:
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/reference/russian.htm

I don't want to arouse anyone over this, I'd just like to see whether anything new has been discovered on this subject in the past 10 years or so - Kari's article goes back to about 1998. I'm sorry - maybe I just want to be spoon-fed with certainties which aren't possible, and not have to make my own decisions on these very important issues!? ;)

John

Sorry John ! no free rides here.
only good old-fashioned work!
to quote Winston Churchill :
I can promise you only blood,tears,toil and sweat.
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Uh-oh - I went and re-read everything I could find on the topic of silver markings, especially as it applies to the La-5, and I think I'm starting to go over to the "Silver Side"... Various sources - Geust, the MBI La-5 book, and various Internet postings - are at least liberal-minded on the subject. Kari Lumppio's information about three approved colours for markings (red, white, and silver) is also pretty convincing, although you're still left to decide which ones were white and which were silver, of course. While Erik P. is pretty firmly on the non-silver side of the debate, there's even a photo on his "Lavochkin Piston-Engined Fighters" CD showing a line-up of La-5FN's, where the reflection from the supposedly-white markings is almost blinding. It's *so* bright that without even thinking about it, your first reaction is "Silver paint!". Now, it's not as if I actually apply decals all that often (my completion rate stinks), but I *think* I'm starting to head towards just accepting the decal sheets as they are, since I have no way of changing them anyway. I'm going to go and put on my silver tin-foil hat now...

But seriously, most of what I've found on this subject is at least 10 years old; again, I was hoping that there might be some new "discoveries" on this topic.

John

Sorry, but the only idea that restorators and Finnish people that saw the actual plane (including the director of the Finnish museum) are so silly to not distinguish paint from bare aluminium looks insulting for them.
So, it is hardly credible to think that someone removed, by tool , layers of dark blue or white (the original US or British marks) over olive drab or green/grey (the original camo) only to show metallic reflex when he has not a can of aluminium paint.


So, it is hardly credible to think that Soviet ground crew passed days to remove paint by tool from a spinner that arrived already painted green, grey or black from the factory.
At the end, on unpainted metal surfaces, the shade of rivets is different from that of the aluminium alloy sheet.

Massimo

Putting aside the issue of tactical numbers and borders for stars, I'm of the belief that silver might have been used for inscriptions, particularly on special series of aircraft (like Valeriy Chkalov Lavochkins) or some (not all) donor inscriptions, to increase the decorative effect. The possibilities for white versus silver are endless in these three applications (numbers, stars, inscriptions). Massimo's suggestion to look carefully at photos, where available, seems to be all we can do. Obviously this question will never be answered easily, 60+ years later, and I guess I was mistaken to ask it, but I think I've learned something - thanks, everyone!

John

yes, it is an awful lot of work to go through to have silver bordered stars when leaving the original white bordered star is quicker, simpler and easier.
this is why silver bordered stars do not make any sense.
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one of the biggest supplies in the Lend-lease program is Gasoline, which can be used to strip paint fairly quickly as sometimes was done with the USAAF.
the same thing could have happened in the USSR turning 'days' of work into a few short hours.
as for rivets and panels...the rivet has a dome-shaped head and a panel usually has a single-radius curve so naturally they reflect light in different ways.

John, I believe that the photo at the bottom of page 89 of Red Stars 1 (hardcover) might very well be a photo of just such an occurrence.
I am at a loss to explain any other way the inscription 'Za Leningrad' that was painted on Kaptain A.K. Tatchenko's Pe-2 of the 13 RAP.
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So, in 1940 Soviets had silver paint enough to paint thousands of whole planes as SB, I-153 and R-10 on all surfaces, and in 1942 they had to import US gasoline to remove green paint when they wanted to show some silver spinners only?? ::)
Massimo

I notice that on some photos (no examples right now, but I'm sure I could find some links), the "white" paint appears sort of faded, with a streaky look to it. Is it possible (if it's aluminum paint that was really used for these markings) that the aluminum pigment adhered poorly, or oxidized in some way, so that over a relatively short period of time it started to develop this deteriorated appearance?

(We better protect our eyes against the blinding dazzle of all that aluminum paint -? 8) )

John? ;)

Hi John, :)
at present time I have not in mind what photos you mean, but I intrerpretate as aluminium a color that changes greatly according to the inclination of the point of view. Accoeding to the perspective, it could also appear somewhat dark.
Massimo

Hi guys,

I'd like to add my .02 canadian cents to the discussion.

I think it' s possible that camo was painted over some aluminium color.
Please review the pic I've found lately, the one with the aluminium band (banded 21):
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/captured/banded21.htm

Looking closely with my old eyes it seems that the borders of the painted camo over the alu band are not very straight.
So if planes were repainted with colors how about saving some time and leaving a thin band around the stars?
Maybe faster than repainting all over and and having to redo the stars.

As for the silver borders from the P-39 of the Tikkakoski museum.
Let see what Kari Lumppio wrote in RUSSIAN WW2 SILVER & OTHER COLOURS website:
" Silver borders for VVS stars is a stonehard fact. You can even access the  evidence in Internet. Photos of two very different cases of P-39 Russian  Airacobras with such stars can be found at the following two sites "

Since both links are dead I've done some google search.

First P-39:
Here we can find photos from Tikkakoski:
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm
Check photo # 11, the one with the big red star
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/p-39_11.htm
and tell me if you see aluminium paint around the stars!
I see only some kind of gray-green over the white borders!!!

Second P-39 (P-39Q-5 serial no 42-20442):
Pictures are from this home page:
http://www.cobrasoverthetundra.com/restoration_page.htm

The photos are here:
http://community.webshots.com/album/16792917UFPOkXdtZk
Check photo p16 and can you see some silver around the red star?

Of course it's only web photos but since Kari Lumppio bases his deduction from them, why not me ;-)

To sum up my random thoughts:
I think it may have been possible that some stars were silver bordered if camouflage colors were painted over silver/aluminium paint.
For now I can't "buy" Mr. Lumppio assertions with only the P-39 pics he used to deduce the certainity of silver borders.

Voila! You got my .02 cents.

BTW very interesting discussion :-))


All the best.

jean
 

Hi :)


I see that it is not fully straight. I suppose that it was painted by brush without masking. One can contour the original star without having to repaint it.


Being the plane exposed in a Finnish museum, I suppose that he based his deductions on the real plane, not on photos.

Really beautiful links! Thank you for sharing! I think that I'll download all those beautiful photos.

Massimo

And what might you mean with 'Finnish Silver Conspiracy', Dark Green Man, if I may ask? I have understood that the use of metallic (aluminium) paint is rather generally accepted as a fact among the Russian experts and enthusiasts, as well. So no "Finns only"-issue there.

I don't know where you are living, but it seems to me that you have access to rather limited number of remains of the original Soviet aircraft with original colour still there, if you keep insisting that aluminium paint was not used by Soviet AF during WWII. As you may be aware of, the Soviet Union and Finland were twice in war with each other during the WWII period. Due to that there are many original samples of VVS paint and finishing hanging around in museums and private collections.

Here is a photo of the Tikkakoski P-39 nose with number 26 definitively (clumsily hand-) painted in aluminium paint. The photo is by me and I have seen the plane from a _very_ close distance and can confirm the colour beyond any doubt.

(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3029/alum26fn4.jpg)

What about the bordering of the stars? There you might as well be right. The colour used is hard to describe, but calling it a" pale grayish" gets you close. Actually it seems, that there have been several touch-ups done in at least one more tone or colour.

Here's the fuselage star:

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1626/p39fusestarsu2.jpg)

As you can see, the colour is by no means uniform. It seems that originally there has been some kind of overpainting in this elusive grayish colour. Which, by the way _may_? as well have been poorly mixed alu paint. But I'm definitively not insisting on it here.

Almost the same applies to the lower wing stars with probably some original American insignia white visible here and there and more than one colour on top of it. I doubt any of these were aluminium.

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9248/p39lowwingstardh7.jpg)

The spinner and the fin and rudder look like they have been recently painted, so that may be restoration, for all I know. What was under it, I can't comment.

I seem to remember that Kari Lumppio has written somewhere in the internet (perhaps in Altavista VVS Modellling forum?) about Soviet practices on finishing the wooden aircraft surfaces (besed on the original published technical specs or manuals), and there was aluminium paint involved. Here is an example of that:

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9744/mig3wingjt4.jpg)

As you can see the inside structure has been painted in aluminium paint. Note also the yellow putty paint visible through scratches in the green camouflage colour, also mentionned by Kari in his text about finishing practices.

And as Massimo already said, Soviet manufacturers had ample supplies of aluminium paint available in time scale late thirties to early fourties to paint thousands of planes. Practice also recorded by Maslov in his monograph on SB bomber. (Shouldn't we really start calling this a Finnish-Russian Conspiracy? Or maybe the work done in the Russian archives by Maslov is not to be considered as expert's work or reliable enough?) Here's a fragment of a bomber aircraft wing to illustrate the point:

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3397/sovbomberwingak5.jpg)

Pay attention to? the pale yellow primer visible in scratches in the area of insiginia _under_? aluminium paint coat. The text in the piece of paper on the fragment says it is a part of a wing of bomber shot down by Helsinki AAA.

Now, with this kind of evidence it is my honest opinion, that it takes certain kinds of not very flattering mental qualities not to accept the use (internal, external and in tactical markings) of the aluminium paint by the WWII era Soviet VVS. If the "experts" pigheadedly refuse to come and see for themselves in case they can't take it from those who have seen the evidence with their own eyes, they make themselves guilty of at least intellectual dishonesty, in my arrogant opinion.

Oh yes, all of these images were shot last autumn in the Anti-Aircraft Artillery Museum in Hyryl?, some 30-40 km north of Helsinki, where the Tikkakoski P-39 is temporarily exhibited.

To summarise: There are existing original exhibits to prove that aluminium paint was used. Soviet Aircraft Industry Finishing Manuals stipulate the use of aluminium paint in the production of wooden aircraft. Kari Lumppio posted the Aluminum chip of AE- range of paints from the Albom nakrasok (or Album of Colours, same book that quotes only white, red and aluminium as colours to be used in markings) by the Glavkraska MKhP SSSR, 1948 edition (Not by NKVD as I have seen somwhere stated! And granted, published after the war, but clearly codifying war time or even pre-war material.) in Hobbyvista VVS Modeling forum a year or few ago, you should easily find it there. Not only Finnish experts like Geust but also Russian experts like Maslov keep telling the Aluminium paint was used.

What makes it so difficult to accept the possibility of use of aluminium paint? Because Erik Pilawski said so? I realise that he has done a major research but his insistence against vast evidence really confuses me. I'd be mightily interested if anybobody has got any _other_ arguments or evidence against the use of aluminium paint?

By the way, I find it somewhat irritating, if not outright insulting to use this derisive "Finnish silver conspiracy" term. As if people here in Finland were colour blind simpletons unable to recognise metallic paint from grey! That kind of attitude is also very counterproductive as most of the Finnish experts and enthusiasts have been frustrated away from international forums leaving only the rear bench guys like yours truly behind. And I emphasise once again, that we do have original material in our hands here! Certainly this situation doesn't serve anybody's interests least of all those modellers' or aviation historians' from countries with no original Soviet aircraft material what so ever.

Jan

Hi guys,

just found these posts in the ARC forums:
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=180396&st=20&start=20

I suggest you go to post#24. It's Mr Lummpio's comments on his famous webpages.

He is not changing is mind but the tone is different to say the least.
Also read the posts from rec.models.scale.
Very interesting.

All the best.

jean

Looking at the close ups of the stars shown two posts up it seems that original white border was repainted with silver paint with brush. Badly i might add which means a plethora of problems for modellers :P. (how the hell can i replicate this in small scale)
This seems similar to american practice of repainting of white parts of their national markings with light grey on bombers (B-24 most notably). Why use silver for it? I'm no expert on soviet colours (chemical composition etc) but my experiance with "bronce" (kind of silver dope) colour lead me to belive that most silver colours left as matt and not polished and varnished did oxidise quite quickly their general description being light grey with silver hue (like the star borders and nose marking on the pic's above). Which of course brings us to the decals. In this case IMHO they should be greyish-silver not pure silver.
Use of silver colour in such case makes a hell of a lot more sense than using yellow that colour being brighter and way more conspicious.

Regarding the decal&conversion set itself (AML 48015) for La-5F which i bought.
I just have to ask this: Why the hell did they had to include escadrilya Valeriy Chkalov marking couldn't they find an ace machine in green-black (my favorite VVS fighter camo) without this inscription?? ??? Of the relatively few machines with the inscription nowdays in the west it almost seems that almost all La's had it.

BTW among other things "the great silver conspiracy" is the reason for this forum forming at all so i don't have a problem with this term. I belive adjective Finnish" was droped after a lot of non finnish members were dropped from VVS forum for it. ;D

Hi Tiso! Yes, everything you say makes sense, especially about the possibility of the aluminum paint oxidizing rapidly to a greyish shade (see my reply 12 on the first page of this thread). Maybe this also explains references to "silver-grey" as an overall colour for some pre-war aircraft?

I also think the green/black scheme of the early war is very attractive, although on the other hand, I have a great affection for the Valeriy Chkalov markings! ;)

John

Hi, :)
I love VCh inscriptions, but if one doesn't want them, he can look if it's possible to obtain other desired numbers by anagramming those of the decals sheets. White numbers in La-5s were of standardized shape and size, and it would be nice if some decals producer makes a sheet full of these codes.
About silver outlines: I have seen that those painted on the real Airacobra are so rough that one could paint them by hand on decals, overposed to white outlines. The result could be not too beautiful, but realistic enough.
Massimo