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General Category => Soviet Warplanes Site => Topic started by: Lumbajack on February 09, 2006, 03:29:41 PM



Title: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 09, 2006, 03:29:41 PM
Hi all and and a heartfelt thank you to Massimo Tessitori.

I'm currently researching and collecting my documentation to build a flying scale model of the MIG-3.
This site is a real treasure trove of info on the subjected aircraft and I once again like to give my regards to Massimo for all the info and pictures on this site.
As work progress I will have a few questions and I hope this is the right forum to address.
I'll start off with a question about the ailerons of the MIG-3. What is the reason for the 'split' in the ailerons.
I've studied the pictures on the walkaround by Yuri Pasholok (thanks a lot Yuri) but can't find any mechanical reason for it other than easier removal of the ailerons perhaps. Anyone...?



Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 09, 2006, 07:29:27 PM
Hi Lumbajack, :)
It could be. However, from the drawings of Voronin, I see an actuating rod under the central hinge. It could be related to this.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 09, 2006, 09:58:08 PM
Hi Massimo! :)
You are of course right. I had a look at those drawings as well and found the actuating rod for the aileron. I missed the obvious :-[
The fact that they are 'split' has allways had me wondering. Can't seam to remember any other aircraft with this setup.
But I guess it's all part of the 'get up and go, no nonsence' Russian aircraft design.
...well... another design challenge. Looks like I'm going to custom make the hinges for the ailerons :-\
It's a quite significant feature of the MIG-3 so there will be no shortcuts just to be able to use off-the-shelve hinges ;)


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 10, 2006, 07:41:53 PM
Hi, :)
is this for a 1/32 model kit? It will be interesting.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Audrius on February 12, 2006, 10:25:49 PM
hi amigos!  ;)

takling about the actuating rod, the one you mentioned Massimo. There is some questions related to it looking at Varonin drawing. I can not see that rod in the plan-view, nevertheless it is in the cross-sectional view!
I guess it was just missed.

BR Audrius
 


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 13, 2006, 02:40:17 PM
Hi, :)
is this for a 1/32 model kit? It will be interesting.
Massimo

I'm sorry...it's a wee bit larger- 1/4...I think...and if all goes well...flying too.
I know this forum is for plastic modellers but there is too much good information here to be missed.
If you don't want me here please let me know :-\
I won't boder you with RC stuff. My aim is to make the the model as close to scale as possible, all detail included and I have not come accross anything that comes close to this site regarding detailed info on the MIG-3.

I have built my fair share of plastic models though. Some years ago i allmost finnished a 1/24 Matchbox Spitfire. Allmost because I managed to ruin the front portion of the canopy/windshield with CA :'(. Does anyone know of any replasement parts for it. I could perhaps scratch it.

I'll post a picture of it...


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Audrius on February 13, 2006, 03:04:44 PM
I'm sorry...it's a wee bit larger- 1/4...I think...and if all goes well...flying too.
I know this forum is for plastic modellers but there is too much good information here to be missed. If you don't want me here please let me know :-\ I won't boder you with RC stuff.

Stop kiding Lumbajack!!!  ;D Nobody is going to throw you way out of here, that is a bull#$%@  ;D
We are glad that you joined us. It doens't matter what scale you do untill it is regarding modeling of VVS a/c. So keep us informing how is going with your RC model. It would be a pleasure for me to see it flying. That should be impresing.

BR Audrius


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 13, 2006, 04:21:23 PM
Thanx Audrius :)

I have a long way to go...on the MIG that is. The main goal now is to establish an exact side view outline of the MIG-3
I have read the excellent articlehttp://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/lenght.html by Alexey Matvienko and based on that I'm close to
settling for the outline in Varonins drawings. I will take the the conclusion of the actual scale in the drawings into consideration when I produce the CAD-file. Are there any controversy on the scale sections in the drawings?
If we can conclude on the accuracy of those two things I can start to produce the CAD drawings and start the work on the plug for the fuselage.


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 13, 2006, 07:49:15 PM
Hi Lumberjack, :)
you're welcome, of course.
I have no voice of major critics to the drawings of Voronin, apart the length of early version.
I would add that the flaps in the water cooler inlet should be two (horizontal) and two (vertical), insteads that one (horizontal) as shown in the section.

Now I'm studying the engine and I have written something, but I have still doubts on some details.
In first place, I don't understand what are the two objects on the rear sides of the engine. At first I thought that they were oil filters, but now I see that they are connected to internal shafts, and not to oil pipes.
I'll upload some photos of them. I hope to collect some good suggestion.

Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 27, 2006, 01:52:59 PM
Hi guys!..and gals if any ;)

Still researching my MIG...next question...In Voronins drawing there are good details on the layout of the rivet pattern.
Are there any concerns about this layout?
Could anyone enlighten me on what kind of rivets that are used on the MIG-3?
I'm studying the photos on the walkaround and can't find anything but flush rivets. Does anybody know if they where used throughout the complete metallic structure. The photos of the canopy frame show some sort of countersunk pop-rivets.
Otherwise it seams that most of the fasteners are philips/posidrive or slotted countersunk screws.

Thoughts anyone...?


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 27, 2006, 10:20:44 PM
Hi, :)
I think that Voronin's drawings are generally reliable, except for few things.
You know more than me about rivets.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Audrius on February 27, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
Hello,
Your are getting deeper and deeper!  ;D
When one is making plastic scale model such issues are not always very important.
OK, let?s try to get some answer to you.
The ?nose? section- an airframe from spinner root to the backseat of cockpit was covered with 12 detachable plates (including cowlings and backsides of cockpit) with the locks type ?Dzus?. Sorry I have no the right name for it in English, but I have attached the cross-sectional and plane views of it.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/senux/Lock_Dzus.jpg)

Already being in serial production due to complains from front the cowling fixing was changed to a new squeeze lock , the one like used on Bf109. This was introduced from the 16th series of production.
The rest wooden airframe was covered with glued birch plywood of 5 layers (0,5mm each).

The central plane of the wing was covered with aluminum sheets and attached to frame by means of the screw bolts that helped for quick service and maintenance during the combat periods.
The rest of wings where covered like the wooden airframe- glued with the 5layers of birch plywood.
The connection of wings with central-plane was covered with metal plate that was fixed with anchor-screws.

Checking the pictures I would say that the screws and bolts were countersunk type.

BR Audrius


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 28, 2006, 09:50:33 AM
Hi Massimo and Audrius :)
Yes you're right. I'm getting deep, but the funny thing is that it's getting more interesting the deeper you get.
With a 25% scale model these issues are of great importance, at least if you want to compete with your model.
Everyone tells me that if you want to build a scale model....do your research FIRST. I want to make a mold of the completed model and if I get the plug wrong.... :-[....better not think of it ;D. When I finish the plug I'm going to take detailed pictures of it and make you criticize it before I make the final mold. ;)

I know of the Dzus locks, and I don't think they are called anything else in English.
All backplates and fittings and panels that don't need removing are mounted with flush rivets...it seams.

I have commented a few of the walkaround pictures. I'll attach them when I, have uploaded them somewhere.

Massimo..I have your new book on pre-order from Amazon since before Christmas...can't wait ;D

Thanks guys!
BR
Olav


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Audrius on February 28, 2006, 10:13:56 AM
hi

>  All backplates and fittings and panels that don't need removing are mounted with flush rivets...it seams.

hmm ???..actually I can not see any backplate that is not removable on the metal airframe part of Mig-3. There are plenty of vintage photos showing Migs cannibalized by Germans where all cowlings and backplates are removed.
As I mentioned in previous post there were 12 plates and all of them were removable. Don't be mistaken by tracks of rivets on those backplates that were used to reinforce them from inside. IMHO.

> I have commented a few of the walkaround pictures. I'll attach them when I, have uploaded them somewhere.

Do that please.  BTW for uploading pictures I could advice: http://www.photobucket.com
I am using this one as well. Works nice.

> Massimo..I have your new book on pre-order from Amazon since before Christmas...can't wait ;D

Wow, wow!!!  :o Am I right that there is an announcement about the Massimo's book on Amazon.com??? I could not find it there. Could you provide the link please?

BR Audrius


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on February 28, 2006, 12:14:50 PM
...well...backplates....wrong word...sorry :-\
All fittings and stringers etc would be more correct. The top side of the wing seams to be without to many hatches and panels.
When I had a closer look at the pictures from MiG-3 restoration by Aviarestoration it's quite obvious that most of the panels are detachable

Are you telling me that you have not pre-ordered Massimos book :o.... ;D
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/8389450267/qid=1141121745/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_0_2/202-5372753-4683864


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 28, 2006, 11:26:26 PM
Whow. I see the cover for the first time! :o
Probably the white plane will be redrawn with a small ski on the tail wheel. It lloks to be one of two planes photographed with such device.
About plates: the plates on the inner section of wing are forthemost not removable.
Audrius, I'll use your sketch of Dzus lock. Thank you.
Lumberjack, I will see your master with great interest.
Massimo :)


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on March 01, 2006, 10:11:15 AM
Hi Massimo!

There is also a picture of the cover on your publishers website. :)

The issue about removable panels is all about what fasteners is used on the perimeter of every specific panel.
That way I can determine what scale detail I have to use on that panel when I don't have access to a photo of that particular area.
I can use the drawing and based on what panel "type" it is go for the most probable fastener type.
Hatches and removable panels are a great asset as it enables a "scale" access to internal components, such as servos, linkage etc.

About the inner sections of the wing. It looks as if the area behind the retracts is "detachable". The criss cross pattern of rivets is the flush type I guess, and there is either Phillips or Dzus fasteners on its perimeter. Thoughts anyone?

I can start the plug (master) at any time actually but I will first try to make a 3D-model of it and plan the layout. How many parts it will consist of , the number of hatches, how many parts the cowling will be....decisions, decisions :)


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 01, 2006, 10:08:29 PM
Hi, :)
all that sounds interesting. Will you even reproduce the original locks by screws?
3D drawings? With possibility of rendering?
The panels behind the gear bays are really removable, probably to give access to the fuel tanks. Perhaps they were removable too.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on March 02, 2006, 12:43:53 PM
Hi  :)

Everything about hatches and panels for the scale-model is undecided as yet.
It all depends on what layout the equipment will have on the final product. Where the servos will go, radio equipment, linkage etc.
I will of course use the original hatches wherever possible. How I will do that exactly is yet to be seen.
This is where the 3-D and 2-D drawings and models come in. I have to learn how to use the software properly too.
I don't know how detailed the 3-D model will be. If I can produce a nice model you can render it any way you like.

You can actually get mini Dzus locks. I still think they are a bit big. Ordinary screws looks somewhat like Dzus locks so it will not be a big problem.
Some will have a function but most will be for scale detail.
One of my goals for the model will be to make the structure a little untraditional in RC therms. Maybe a bit more like the real thing. We'll see ;)

Olav


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Audrius on March 03, 2006, 08:19:21 AM
Hello,

> I can start the plug (master) at any time actually but I will first try to make a 3D-model of it and plan the layout.

Are going to make something similar to this 3D-model of D520: http://lemog.free.fr/lemog_v5/thumbnails.php?album=1&page=1&lang=english

If anyone could produce such model it would be wonderful!  ;D

BR Audrius


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on March 03, 2006, 09:28:03 AM
:o careful Audrius....I choked on my coffee here ;D

I have ambitions but this is something else...my gawd! That's a a 3D model of "museum" quality.
When I said "a bit more like the real thing" I didn't mean the complete structure ;D
If your at this level you can make money from your 3D-models.

But wonderful...deffinitely 8)


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 04, 2006, 09:00:09 AM
Wonderful.  :o
You can make a book with these images and few text more!

Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on August 23, 2006, 01:39:50 PM
Massimo....how about that book of yours? Is it available by now? It's been on pre-order on Amazon like forever now and I can't figure out if Amazon has forgotten all about my order or not.


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on August 25, 2006, 04:41:38 PM
Hi, :)
I think that it will be released in late September. The redactor hoped to end it at the first days of the month, but I had to check the drawings made by their artist, and a new source for photos has emerged during August.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on August 28, 2006, 10:18:51 AM
Nice! I don't mind waiting as long as I know whats going on. Come to think of it...I'we developed my patience to a new level over the last years. It's all a part of getting older I guess. ;)
As long as the 'delays' improves the product, it all worth it ;D
Looking forward to lay may hands on this book. The Mig-3 is rapidly becoming an all time favourite WWII fighter.
I'm becoming more and more fond of the Russian line of historic aircrafts. I not sure what it is but maby it's the ruggedness that is evident right to this day.
A ferfect example is the Mig-29 and the Su-27. They have the same 'spirit' as they're ww2 predeseccors.
I don't know if you know what I mean....any thoughts? :)
...I'll start looking in my mailbox i late september then... ;D


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on November 27, 2006, 08:41:41 AM
Got my copy of the new Mig1/3 book from Amazon.uk this weekend ;D
It's been a long wait but very much worth it. It's great.
Tank you very much Massimo!


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 27, 2006, 09:46:17 PM
Hi, :)
I'm glad that you like it.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Lumbajack on November 28, 2006, 11:26:24 AM
I love it. I've seen many of the pictures before on your excelent site but it is something special about a print.
...and that's from a webdesigner mind you...;D
It's a nice addition to my growing "library".
Do you know of any good war-stories or pilot reports about the MIG3? Books in english preferably...


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 28, 2006, 07:03:11 PM
Hi, :)
the best one is an interview to a pilot of 122 IAP, Rybalko.
http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/Rybalko.htm
Then I know that Pokryshkin wrote something, but not in English.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons- fasteneers
Post by: jkiker on October 30, 2007, 04:19:05 AM
Hi all,

I will post a couple of pictures of my 1/48 scale Trumpeter kit in early stage in the modeling section, but this thread goes to a question I have on the early version MiG-3's.  I understand that the cowling detachment, exhaust shrouds, and some panel lines were different on the early versus the late versions.  What is not clear to me from the pictures is, does the early version cowling attach and detach using the Dzus-type fasteners, or are they just screwed on?  I mean the two upper side panels (not top center), where the side panels run along at the top of the exhaust opening, then down and forward from the front end of the exhausts.  Thanks in advance for more intormation!

Cheers, Jim


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on October 30, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
Hi, :)
I have had a look to the drawings of Voronin. It looks that only screws are utilized, not Dzus or fast locks. Probably those panels weren't removed too often.
Massimo


Title: Re: MIG3 Ailerons
Post by: jkiker on October 31, 2007, 02:45:31 AM
Hi Massimo,

Excellent!  That is exactly the information I needed.

Many thanks, Jim