Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2009, 12:21:57 PM



Title: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2009, 12:21:57 PM
Hi,
I've compiled a provisional table of colors and I've uploaded it here
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html)
As you all can see, it is uncomplete: some paints don't have a chip, nor an equivalence, notably the postwar blue-greys as AMT-10, AMT-16 and similar, and dark brown A-8. Besides there are some colors of 1940 that could be identified with those of experimental camouflages that can be seen on
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0 (http://"http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0")
The table and chips are widely based on the works of V/O, of Hornat, of Akanikhin and similar sources.
Any help will be welcome.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 11, 2009, 10:05:17 PM
Hi Massimo,

Brown paint for oil system is an interesting one.

Unfortunately, this is the only photo I could find - DB-3 oil tank.  The plane was shut down in December 1939, during the Winter War.  Wreck was recovered in 2006.

(http://www.vif2ne.ru/smf/stuff/Andrey/g02672_2673369.jpg)

from http://dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=2672&lng=E

 
What you see is mostly flesh reflection from the wet surface, some gray mud and brown in the upper portion of the tank.  I would call this colour maroon, but my English is far from perfect.

It is interesting to compare this colour with brown colour used on modern engines:

(http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/engines/d-30kp/dd_d-30kp_05.jpg)


From:  http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/engines/d-30kp/index.htm  D-30KP Engine displayed at the Museum of Aero-engine Production at Gatchina

Cheers,
Konstantin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for this image. It gives the idea of a very dark brown.
Some brown details are well visible in the engine of the rebult MiG-3, but the color could be not a good replica of the original one.
However now I have an idea for a provisional chip.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 13, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Hi Massimo,

I would suggest to group paints by their type: Oil paints in one group, Nitro paints in another etc.  Within the group you may sort them by name and year of introduction: AII paints followed by AMT etc...  Basically, the same as the paints are organized in "Albom Nakrasok".

When you group paints this way, it is going to be easier to see that some paints were used for metal only, other for fabric/wood etc.  

Claim that any paint could be used on any surface or over any other paint (nitro AII paints on metal, oil paints over nitro paints etc) is one of the major E. Pilawskii's mistakes.  Every handyman knows that paints for wood are different than paints for metal and that they are not interchangeable.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 13, 2009, 10:18:18 AM
Hi Konstantin,
I agree that the page needs of some more order; I was thinking to group paints (inside the existing tables) for color, that is green with other greens etc. Then add notes on the chemical properties. So a modeler that needs to know how to paint a model that is, for example, black and green can choose easily between greens suitable for that plane. Taking in account that many shades are very similar despite their different medium, or that some types were suitable both on metal and wood, this simplify life to modelers interested only in shade.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 14, 2009, 12:34:40 AM
Hi Massimo,  :)

Compiling all colors in one specter (from yellows to different greens and all way to purple) would be an interesting exercise.  It could be useful for modelers.

But? More important task is to educate both modelers and all the others.  It is important to stress what was the original use of each paint (or if that use changed over time), when the paint was introduced and when its use was discontinued.
If this information is presented logically people will understand it and accept it.

Eventually, people will be able to realize why AE-9 on Art Deco I-16s doesn?t make sense (because, before GPW, AE-9 was used as an exterior metal paint only).

Cheers,  8)
KL 


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 15, 2009, 10:45:44 PM
Hi,
I've updated the color table, that now is linked by the main page of VVS research.
Anyone willing to have a look to it, and give suggestions on how to improve or correct it, is welcome.

Quote
But? More important task is to educate both modelers and all the others.  It is important to stress what was the original use of each paint (or if that use changed over time), when the paint was introduced and when its use was discontinued.
If this information is presented logically people will understand it and accept it.

Eventually, people will be able to realize why AE-9 on Art Deco I-16s doesn?t make sense (because, before GPW, AE-9 was used as an exterior metal paint only).

Aside the codified use of colors, it would be interesting to know what happens if paints of some type are overposed to another type of layer.  Sometimes photos show non-standard camouflages, and it's important to know what can happen overposing casually two types of paint to suggest or to exclude some combinations.

Massimo




Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 16, 2009, 09:23:37 AM
Hi Massimo,

Some comments on your new table:

1.  I guess this is the table for modellers - all greens grouped together, all grays grouped together, etc.  Why did you devide them in 3 groups: before 1941, 1941-1945 and after 1945?  Some paints appear in two groups.  Acording to "Albom" AE-8 should appear in all 3 groups.

I would again sugest creating one table more (technical and historical) with paints grouped by type and sorted chronologicaly by time of introduction.  In this table you must have separate coloumns for time of introduction and for paint type (same as table in Aviakolektsiya).  In this table you will not need FS eqivalents!

2.  It is not clear if pre-war A2nd coat nitro paints were used on metal surfaces even with zinc-chromate primers.  AMT nitro paints were, but that was later during the war.

3.  Title "Camouflage and livery paints for Soviet aircraft 1937-June 1941" is not apropriate - some paints predate 1937.

4.  For A-19f and A-18f alkyd seems to better describe chemistry of these paints

5.  All A2nd coat nitro varnishes were glossy

6.  4BO was a colour not a paint!  4BO paints used on tanks were probably (chemically) different then 4BO paints used on airplanes

7.  ALG-5 was formulated as 50% ALG-1 + 50% A-14.  Its color was gray-green or dark gray, not blue.

Thats it for now.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2009, 11:11:10 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions. Let's see...

About the suddivision of colors by period, I think that it makes the table more readable for modelers. One starts already having an idea if the plane that he needs to paint is of before, during or after the war. Duplication of some paints is not a problem.
Fs matches are useful, in my view; if I can, I will look for Humbrol, gunze and other matches. I appreciate the work of AKAN, but I don't want to make all people dependant on their paints only.
For paging reasons, I can't make a column for year only and one for chemical only (that are written in other cells), else the table becomes so wide that it becomes impossible to be visualized on many monitors.
About A 2nd (people is used to call them AII now), we could ask Orlov if they were utilized on metals too, but it looks likely: according to my observations, only MiG-3 Yak 2/4 and some I-16s show the strong difference in shade between greens on metal and wooden part on aged planes, so there has to be some type of paint utilized both on metal and wooden/fabric sufaces.
About the title: I would like to extend the table to the '30s, but at present time I have not informations enough.
However, it's likely that planes painted before 1937 were unchanged in 1937.
Alkyd... ok
4B0 a color, not a paint... this sounds strange. All greens developed after 4B0 were inspired to this; the likely reason was that it was the same paint utilized for tanks, and was in some way unsatisfactory for its chemistry.
About ALG-5: Jiri Hornat describes the use, after July 1941, of a paint 50% ALG-1, 50% A-14 and some aliminium powder; this should appear as grey-green or olive green (we could check mixing two similar paints); this use was deluding because the surfaces needed to be chemically treated first; so they reverted to ALG-1 plus a layer of ALG-5 greyish green, then a hand of light grey oil enamel A-9.
So, ALG-5 was different than a mix of ALG-1 and grey A-14.  Have you better informations on this?
About the shade, it is likely that it was greener and darker than my chip, this is a thing to check; however, for what I understand, it is unlikely that this color appears visible on planes.

Thank you again
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 16, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
Hi Massimo,

few comments more:

8.  AE-9 Ligth Gray oil enamel was also glossy when new.  Acording to V&O it weathered quickly into matt surface (compared with chalk)

9.  For 3B paint you have time-frame 1933-37 and for Typical Use DB-3 and I-15bis.  It should be TB-3 and I-15.  I-15bis was mass produced in 1938-1939.

10.  1940 for 4BO sounds quite late.  This should be double checked.

11.  First red colour in "Markings colors" is AII Kr.  Like other AII nitro paints it was glossy.  This is clearly visible on LaGG-3 fragment from Finland: camouflage paints are matt AMT and red star is glossy AII Kr.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
KL

 


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 17, 2009, 12:47:10 AM
From scalemodels.ru at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=80  post by Dubbler:


Справочник по авиационным материалам.
Выпуск 1.Самолетные материалы.
М.1942.Гос. издательство оборонной промышленности.

Aviation Materials Directory
1st edition. aeroplane Materials
1942, published state publisher of Defence Industry

(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7035/67749055.th.jpg)

Paint No4 is ALG-5:

?Name and colour =  Primer varnish dark-gray ALG-5?

?Standard No = VTU=Temporary technical standard?

?Use = As an independent anticorrosive layer for metals.  Represents ready to use mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.?

?Possible replacement =  mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.?



Руководство по войсковому ремонту лакокрасочных покрытий самолетов.
М.1947.Оборонгиз  

Manual for military overhaul of aeroplane paints
1947

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5971/19695764.th.jpg)

Describes colour as Gray-green



Справочник основных характеристик лакокрасочных материалов
по действующим в авиапромышленности стандартам.
М.Оборонгиз.1951
Another manual from 1951

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7497/21189744.th.jpg)
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/255/97005393.th.jpg)

ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel ? ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes ? Pe-2s!  



Hope this explains

Cheers,
KL



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2009, 07:28:42 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Thank you for your suggestions.

Quote
9.  For 3B paint you have time-frame 1933-37 and for Typical Use DB-3 and I-15bis.  It should be TB-3 and I-15.  I-15bis was mass produced in 1938-1939.

Hmm... DB-3 is my mistake.
I 15 bis, on photos, appear to be painted with a very dark green, aside some I-16s. If not 3B, what else could it be? EP citated an AE-15 and a factory green, possibly the same pain, and Hornat . Is there any conformation on newer and well documented sources?

Quote
Paint No4 is ALG-5:

?Name and colour =  Primer varnish dark-gray ALG-5?

?Standard No = VTU=Temporary technical standard?

?Use = As an independent anticorrosive layer for metals.  Represents ready to use mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.?

?Possible replacement =  mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.?


OK, you've convinced me.


Quote
ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel ? ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes ? Pe-2s! 


If I don't mistake, green paint was found inside Pe-2s too.

So, who knows what was the color of the landing gear of Lavockins? By sure darker than the light blue.
EP suggested green, I'm more oriented to A-14.

Massimo




Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 20, 2009, 09:10:47 AM

Quote
ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel ? ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes ? Pe-2s! 


If I don't mistake, green paint was found inside Pe-2s too.



The green paint is ALG-1

Although you probably know this, more about ALG-1 and ALG-5 primers:

ALG-1 is soviet zinc-chromate.  It's an anti-corrosive coating, not a paint.  In technical documentation, usually, treated as a primer.

ALG-1 color wasn't standardized - from wrecks it color could be anything between:



bright yellow
green-yellow
brown-yellow



ALG-1 was introduced in Soviet aviation industry, most likely, in 1937.  This is confirmed from Spanish SB wrecks.
 
All SB bombers made after 1937 were painted/protected with ALG-1.  Following are examples for different ALG-1 shades:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/PLANXA-PINTURABK-093-Acopia.jpg)
 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/RaatteenTie-SuomussalmiSBwing2.jpg)
 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/SB%20Colours/laperantaSBhatch.jpg)
 
 
More about zinc-chromate history at:  http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm
Zinc-chromate has been adopted as standard primer in American aviation industry in 1936.  ALG-1 was the latest American technology when adopted by Soviets.


 
ALG-5 was an early war improvisation.  1942 manuel has "Temporary Technical instruction" for its standard.  My guess is that beginning of its application wasn't earlier than 1941.
 
Again, ALG-5 colour is described as dark gray or gray-green.  ALG-5 colour also varied since the colour of one component (ALG-1) varied.
 
Cheers,
KL

P.S.  Tomorow more about I-15bis and 4BO


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on November 20, 2009, 02:07:53 PM
ALG-1 is soviet zinc-chromate.  It's an anti-corrosive coating, not a paint.  In technical documentation, usually, treated as a primer.

ALG-1 color wasn't standardized - from wrecks it color could be anything between:



bright yellow
green-yellow
brown-yellow



ALG-1 was introduced in Soviet aviation industry, most likely, in 1937.  This is confirmed from Spanish SB wrecks.

What a revelation Konstantin!!! This is new to me.Once again,thanks for sharing your research.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2009, 10:05:03 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Your informations on ALG-1 are interesting. Thank you very much.
I am wondering if this paint was really greenish, or has become greenish after having painted on with green paint that has in some way polluted it.
Or, just to say: if they added a bit of grey or black to ALG-1 to turn it into a greenish shade, did the name of the paint remain unchanged?
About the green shade of ALG-1, did you find documents saying that this coat could assume this shade, or it is your idea on the base of the page on zinc chromate? A maintenance manual of some Pe-2 could help to see the name of the green coating.

Another thing: I see that there is some AE-15 on the image of the wreck of SB. I am highly interested in this paint, both for chip and for field of application, because I am looking for a prewar dark green.
Do you know anything on AE-15?

Massimo





Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 21, 2009, 08:48:52 AM

I 15 bis, on photos, appear to be painted with a very dark green, aside some I-16s. If not 3B, what else could it be? EP citated an AE-15 and a factory green, possibly the same pain, and Hornat . Is there any conformation on newer and well documented sources?


Hi Massimo,  :)

There shouldn't be any mystery regarding I-15bis colours:

According to Maslov it was painted "Zashtsitnaya" green on top surfaces and silver on undersides.  I-15bis was a fabric covered plane and as such it was painted with nitro-cellulose lacquers.  AII Z and AII Al lacquers were both available in 1938.

I-15bis was mass produced (almost cloned) - there were no subtypes, no unnecessary changes.  This is reflected in I-15bis colours too - they are all painted the same.  Only in 1939, at the end of production, some I-15bis were painted in overall silver, same as I-153.

So, forget 4BO, AE-7 or AE-15.  Those were oil paints for metal and they were not used on I-15bis!

Cheers,  8)
KL  


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 21, 2009, 03:13:57 PM

Quote
According to Maslov it was painted "Zashtsitnaya" green on top surfaces and silver on undersides.  I-15bis was a fabric covered plane and as such it was painted with nitro-cellulose lacquers.  AII Z and AII Al lacquers were both available in 1938.

I-15bis was mass produced (almost cloned) - there were no subtypes, no unnecessary changes.  This is reflected in I-15bis colours too - they are all painted the same.  Only in 1939, at the end of production, some I-15bis were painted in overall silver, same as I-153.

So, forget 4BO, AE-7 or AE-15.  Those were oil paints for metal and they were not used on I-15bis!

Hi Konstantin, so AII green makes the part of an overall dark green. Well, it's likely, prewar planes lasted much longer, and the paint had time to darken even more than on MiG-3 wrecks.
I just wonder if the color was really similar to A-19f when new.
About AE-7 and 15, it wold be interesting to know more all the same.
About the color table, I was thinking to make a simplified table for modelers grouping very similar colors in one, and suggesting matches. Only a difficulty: I have only Humbrol paints, and I don't want to buy other types only to check matches. I've a book of IPMS with such matches, but I would like to find someone that helps me.
Is there any volunteer here?

Thank you for the information.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 23, 2009, 10:44:08 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

I did some search about 4BO and started a tread on scalemodels.ru forum and we have some questions answered.  It turned out that 4BO is an important colour/paint for understanding the changes in colouration that happened in 1940-1941.

What 4BO was could be found at: http://www.dshk.narod.ru/sovpaint.htm

It?s an excerpt from the book:

КОРРОЗИЯ ОРУЖИЯ и БОЕПРИПАСОВ, ИНЖЕНЕР-ПОДПОЛКОВНИК ПОДДУБНЫЙ В. Н., Лауреат
Сталинской премии, Кандидат Технических наук, ВОЕННОЕ ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО МИНИСТЕРСТВА ВООРУЖЕННЫХ СИЛ СОЮЗА
ССР МОСКВА?1946
Corrosion of weapons and ammunition by V.N. Poddubniy, published in 1946

In short and only parts related to 4BO it says:

Standard ?Zashtsitnaya? (protection) paint 3B AU had the following deficiency: it was visible (ie, distinguished by color) on the background of foliage or green grass when viewed through special filters. This despite the fact that it blended with the background of green vegetation when viewed with the naked eye (in Russian, the paint was ?decodable?).
This property was caused by paint pigments which reflected different rays of the spectrum, from those rays, which are reflected by chlorophyll - the basic pigment of the green vegetation.
This shortcoming of the paint 3B AU was considered significant.  To improve the camouflage, new nondecodable ?Zashtsitnaya? paint 4BO was developed.

... ...

Shades of colors had to be within approved standards.
Artillery ws almost exclusively painted with oil paints.

... ...

Paint paste 4BO was made of refined linseed oil (30%), green chromium oxide (13.1%), Zurav dry ocher (not more than 51,5%) and orange lead chromate (not less than 5,3%). Except these pigments, other shades were not allowed in 4BO paint before the war. Paint 4BO was fairly bright and juicy green and was suitable for the background of green vegetation - dominant in summer conditions.[ In general, green colour predominates in camouflage (schemes), and 45-55% of the surface of the object is painted in green.


From scalemodels.ru forum:

Paint 4BO for tanks/artillery and other infantry use was formulated in 1940
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
Aviation analogues of 4BO paint were AMT-4 nitro lacquer and A-24m oil paint

AII Z doesn?t have anything in common with 4BO.
AII Z was darker than 4BO (and AMT-4 or A-24m)

Conclusion:  4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m are the same colour. 4BO oil paint was not used on airplanes.  It was a tank/artillery paint!!!


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Apex1701 on November 24, 2009, 10:21:18 PM
Hi Massimo,

About the color table, I was thinking to make a simplified table for modelers grouping very similar colors in one, and suggesting matches. Only a difficulty: I have only Humbrol paints, and I don't want to buy other types only to check matches. I've a book of IPMS with such matches, but I would like to find someone that helps me.
Is there any volunteer here?

What kind of help do you need?

Cheers.

Jean


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 25, 2009, 11:35:06 AM
Quote
Paint 4BO for tanks/artillery and other infantry use was formulated in 1940
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
Aviation analogues of 4BO paint were AMT-4 nitro lacquer and A-24m oil paint
AII Z doesn?t have anything in common with 4BO.
AII Z was darker than 4BO (and AMT-4 or A-24m)

Conclusion:  4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m are the same colour. 4BO oil paint was not used on airplanes.  It was a tank/artillery paint!!!

Hi Konstantin,
all this is very interesting.
I don't understand well the difference between colour and paint. could you explain it with other words, please?
You wrote that 4B0 was never utilized on planes. Are all the indications of Orlov himself wrong? It was indicatted as a color for experimental camouflages in 1940. If not 4B0, what other color should have benn used on those planes? By the way, on those schemes it was utilized on wooden and fabric surfaces too.

By the way, isn't there any news about AE-15?

Quote
What kind of help do you need?

Cheers.

Jean

I would like some help to find matches of colors of many firms for modelistic use with the AKAN and FS identified till now. I can do this for Humbrol because I usually utilize them, but I would like some help with other firms, because I can't buy tons of paints that I won't utilize.
Eventually we could use as a base the Ipms color cross-reference guide of Klaus, but it's a book of nearly 20 years ago and I would check its indications.

Massimo





Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 25, 2009, 08:29:29 PM

I don't understand well the difference between colour and paint. could you explain it with other words, please?


Hi Massimo,

Colour is physical property: it?s the light reflected from objects that we see.

Paint is material that we spray or brush on objects.  The function of paint is: to protect objects, to decorate objects or to conceal (camouflage) objects.

Obviously, colour is the most important property of the paint.  Colour of any paint is determined by combination of different pigments.

Different paints, say one nitro-cellulose and two oil paints, can have the same colour.  This was the case with AMT-4, A-24m and 4BO - all three were ?fairly bright and juicy green that was suitable for the background of green vegetation - dominant in summer conditions?.

Same was probably true for AIIZ nitro-cellulose paint and AE-7 oil paint.  Both paints were defined as ?Zashtsitnaya?.  In this case, it was the old, pre-1940 dark green colour.  Probably similar to 3B.

Combination AIIZ and AE-7 may have been used on I-15bis and I-16 Type 10.  AE-7 would be used on metal parts and AIIZ on fabric and wood.  Two paints are so similar that we usually can?t see the difference on b/w photos.

A-19f as shown by AKAN and as mentioned in literature was grass green.

MiG-3s painted with A-19f and AIIZ, were in two shades of green ? lighter A-19f and darker AII Z ? from the day when they were painted.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 25, 2009, 08:57:26 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
4BO was originally used for colour, not for paint (in aviation, I would guess).
what do you mean with this? That they utilized a paint similar in color to 4B0? Lacking color photos or pieces, I suppose that Orlov and Vaklamov found 4B0 written on the documents on those experimental camouflages. I don't see reason to thinkl that the green was another one.

Quote
Same was probably true for AIIZ nitro-cellulose paint and AE-7 oil paint.  Both paints were defined as ?Zashtsitnaya?.  In this case, it was the old, pre-1940 dark green colour.  Probably similar to 3B.
Is your suggestion that AII green, AE-7 and 3B were similar and all dark?

Quote
MiG-3s painted with A-19f and AIIZ, were in two shades of green ? lighter A-19f and darker AII Z ? from the day when they were painted.

I don't think. On Russian photos of early MiG-3s (forthemost factory ones, but also some of 401 IAP I can't see this differenxce in shade. On German photos, the difference is evident, and much more marked if the plane is in evident state of abandon or if it is of early construction (MiG-1); besides I think that these changes were catalized by sunlight.
Take in account that chips both of A-19 and AII green of AKAN are based on colors old of 60 years.

Massimo






Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 25, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
In 1940-41, 4BO was used as a name for that lighter green-yellow colour.

I don't know what paints were used to paint those I-16s, I-153s and SB during 1940 tests.  The fact is that one of those paints had 4BO colour.

1940 tests were important because they showed the value of disruptive camouflage schemes.
Except for 4BO and light brown (only in 1943), other new colours used in these tests were never put in mass production.
I have no idea why all colours used in these tests ended up in lists of VVS paints.  This certainly has created a lot of confusion.

Anyway, when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed the goal was to create matt paints that would have 4BO colour.  At the same time 4BO oil paint of the same colour, had been developed for Army use.  At the end in summer 1941 there were three paints:

4BO oil paint for tanks/artillery/trucks/helmets/showels etc
A-24m matt oil paint for metal planes
AMT-4 mat nitro-cellulose lacquer for fabric/wood/mixed construction planes




A lot of ?ifs? and ?probablies? in the rest of my post:

AIIZ and AE-7 are probably the same colour.  Both are described with the same colour name and both were developed around 1937.

IF MiG-3s were painted with A-19f ? there would be two shades of green.  A-19f and AIIZ were the paints of two different generations.
IF MiG-3s were painted with AIIZ and AE-7 ? they would look solid green, like I-15bis.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 26, 2009, 07:06:29 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)

Quote
Anyway, when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed the goal was to create matt paints that would have 4BO colour.  At the same time 4BO oil paint of the same colour, had been developed for Army use.  At the end in summer 1941 there were three paints:

4BO oil paint for tanks/artillery/trucks/helmets/showels etc
A-24m matt oil paint for metal planes
AMT-4 mat nitro-cellulose lacquer for fabric/wood/mixed construction planes

It looks a bit strange that 4BO oil paint has the same name of the color, while A-24 amd AMT-4 have the same pigment with different names. Being Orlov available on Scalemodels.ru, could you ask what is his position on the aricle that he wrote?

Quote
IF MiG-3s were painted with A-19f ? there would be two shades of green.  A-19f and AIIZ were the paints of two different generations.
IF MiG-3s were painted with AIIZ and AE-7 ? they would look solid green, like I-15bis.

This doesn't match with my observations on wartime photos where all those of Russian origin show uniform green and all the German ones show some division. Ok, it could be that those paints had a different hue that is impressed in films in different ways, but the increasing of the contrast with the state of abandon of the plane is evident.


Massimo



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Apex1701 on November 26, 2009, 04:30:47 PM
Hi Massimo,
[/quote]
I would like some help to find matches of colors of many firms for modelistic use with the AKAN and FS identified till now. I can do this for Humbrol because I usually utilize them, but I would like some help with other firms, because I can't buy tons of paints that I won't utilize.
Eventually we could use as a base the Ipms color cross-reference guide of Klaus, but it's a book of nearly 20 years ago and I would check its indications.
[/quote]

I can try to match Tamiya flats to Akan and FS.
Also I have some WEM that I can try to match whatever their name was.

The only culprit is that I'm not sure my matches will be OK.
In fact I intend to paint some paint chips on cardboard and then scan them to compare them to AKAN and FS.
I can't find another way other than buying AKAN and FS color chips.
I'm open to suggestions ;-)

As for the IPMS color reference book do you have it in electronic format?

All the best.

Jean


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on November 26, 2009, 07:22:09 PM
It looks a bit strange that 4BO oil paint has the same name of the color, while A-24 amd AMT-4 have the same pigment with different names. Being Orlov available on Scalemodels.ru, could you ask what is his position on the aricle that he wrote?

Hi Massimo,

I have already started tread on scalemodels.ru and there are no more replies.
I don?t see anything strange with 4BO or what V&O wrote about it:

4BO was an oil paint used for tanks/artillery during WWII and for decades after WWII
4BO (and other Army paints) were tested on airplanes in 1940
4BO was used as a reference when AMT-4 and A-24m were developed.



The question is:  Do you want to include a well known tank paint in your list of standard aviation paints?

1940 tests are an interesting and important subject, but if you include all or some of the paints used it these tests in your list, you are going to continue with the confusion.

Cheers,
KL   


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 26, 2009, 11:22:59 PM
Hi Konstantin, :)
hmmm... I have to read again the translation of the work of Orlov before answering. However, the predecessor of 4BO, 3B, was utilized both on tanks and on planes.
By the way, what does 4BO mean?

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 27, 2009, 11:05:39 PM
Hi,
I've updted the page. I have enclosed something on Spanish colors (supposing that they were really Spanish and not Russian) and some other things.
I think that I'll split this table in separate files, to add some comments as photos, links or color profiles under each file.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: bonifaz on November 28, 2009, 04:34:16 PM
Hi Massimo,
You have done an excellent job.
But would you correct the names for the new colors please?
24ng - brown green
22Lg - light green
2Le   - yellow green
3ie   - sand
3ng  - brown
23pi - green
Cheers Ron


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on November 28, 2009, 09:42:26 PM
Hello Massimo:

Good work on this table,it is a good reference for modellers.
Regarding the colours of the republican flag during de SCW,one spanish modeller recommended me to use the following Humbrol paints because they are a pretty close match:

-RED: H153 Insignia Red
-YELLOW: H154 Insignia Yellow
-Purple: H68 Purple (out of production)

I?ve painted the rudder of a Eduard I-16 with these colours and I think they?re accurate,at least to me.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/I-16%20Tipo%2010_Edu48/DSC03775.jpg)

Greetings.

Martin



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 29, 2009, 07:46:42 AM
Hello Massimo:

Good work on this table,it is a good reference for modellers.
Regarding the colours of the republican flag during de SCW,one spanish modeller recommended me to use the following Humbrol paints because they are a pretty close match:

-RED: H153 Insignia Red
-YELLOW: H154 Insignia Yellow
-Purple: H68 Purple (out of production)

I?ve painted the rudder of a Eduard I-16 with these colours and I think they?re accurate,at least to me.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/I-16%20Tipo%2010_Edu48/DSC03775.jpg)

Greetings.

Martin



Hi Martin,
thank you for your suggestions and compliments for your new model.
To tell the truth, I've found electronic chips that are more dull, but I am not able to say what match is better.
Surprisingly, the restored planes of Cuatro Vientos bear a sort of blue instead of purple.
Any help with the colors of the Spanish Republican  (and maybe nationalist too) air force would be welcomed.
I have found some forums (on suggestion of Konstantin) in Spanish; I can read it, more or less, but not quickly nor post questions in Spanish.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/)
http://www.foroaviones.com/foro/showthread.php?t=5246 (http://www.foroaviones.com/foro/showthread.php?t=5246)
In particular, I think that other colors as browns were utilized on SB, and it could be useful to identify the shades, if possible. I think that the thing was discussed on the AWF, now suppressed.

Massimo




Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 29, 2009, 07:48:54 AM
Quote
Hi Massimo,
You have done an excellent job.
But would you correct the names for the new colors please?
24ng - brown green
22Lg - light green
2Le   - yellow green
3ie   - sand
3ng  - brown
23pi - green
Cheers
 Ron


Hi Ron,
thank you, I'll correct the names.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 29, 2009, 08:20:31 AM
Quote
Hi Massimo,
Quote

I would like some help to find matches of colors of many firms for modelistic use with the AKAN and FS identified till now. I can do this for Humbrol because I usually utilize them, but I would like some help with other firms, because I can't buy tons of paints that I won't utilize.
Eventually we could use as a base the Ipms color cross-reference guide of Klaus, but it's a book of nearly 20 years ago and I would check its indications.

I can try to match Tamiya flats to Akan and FS.
Also I have some WEM that I can try to match whatever their name was.

The only culprit is that I'm not sure my matches will be OK.
In fact I intend to paint some paint chips on cardboard and then scan them to compare them to AKAN and FS.
I can't find another way other than buying AKAN and FS color chips.
I'm open to suggestions ;-)

As for the IPMS color reference book do you have it in electronic format?

All the best.

Jean

Hi Jean,
thank you for your help.
To make well such comparison, it would be good to have AKAN paints (I don't have them yet) or a FS catalogue (I have this). One can deduct AKAN and FS colors from the screen, but every passage between electronic and painted form adds errors.
Eventually, have you some Humbrol paints as a reference, so you can scan /photo the Tamiya chips and other chips side by side in the same image to allow people to estimate video calibration?

As an alternative: we could look for anyone that already has AKAN paints and could kindly send chips to you (and maybe to me) for the comparison.

Massimo



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on November 29, 2009, 12:14:40 PM
Heloo Massimo:
Surprisingly, the restored planes of Cuatro Vientos bear a sort of blue instead of purple.
According to spanish sources,this colour was something between blue and red and has not an exact shade.

I have found some forums (on suggestion of Konstantin) in Spanish; I can read it, more or less, but not quickly nor post questions in Spanish.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/)
I?m a "member" (or participant) of this spanish forum,although I?m not so active lately;you can make any question thru me.
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 29, 2009, 03:55:54 PM
Quote
I?m a "member" (or participant) of this spanish forum,although I?m not so active lately;you can make any question thru me.
Greetings.

Hi Martin,
thank you for your kindness.
The question is if there were standard colors for Republican planes and, as a second thing, for Nationalist captured planes too. For what I know, the chips identified on the forum already linked could also be Russian colors.
Besides: what is the general opinion on the colors of the restored planes of the Cuatro Vientos museum, those of I-15 and I-16 in particular? Are they reliable?
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on November 30, 2009, 01:36:13 PM
Hello Massimo:

I?ll make your questions in the forum.

Besides: what is the general opinion on the colors of the restored planes of the Cuatro Vientos museum, those of I-15 and I-16 in particular? Are they reliable?
I must say that the opinion is that colours are not accurate.
Greetings:

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on November 30, 2009, 04:30:20 PM
Hello Massimo:

There is an answer to your question in Aeronet GCE by Isaac Montoya,who published the samples you linked.This is the link:http://www.network54.com/Forum/394728/message/1259593712/Colores+en+aviones+de+la+Guerra+Civil
As soon as I can,I?ll send you a translation by mail.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 30, 2009, 10:21:53 PM
Thank you very much Martin.
I've received and answered your email.
There is written also of a red chip... it would be interesting to see it.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 04, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
Hi,
I've updated the table of colors with a table of matches between FS, Akan and Humbrol for light blues. I'll make the same work with other colors as soon as possible. Again, if someone helps me, we could make the same for other colors.

Jean, if you want, I can send to you a card with samples of Humbrol paints, so you can scan or photograph the matches to Tamiya colors and send to me the scans; I can calibrate the scans with Photoshop and make an indirect comparison between Akan and Tamiya.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Apex1701 on December 10, 2009, 12:40:53 AM
Hi Massimo,

good idea to send me your Humbrols card.
I'll scan them alongside the Tamiya and WEM colors I have.


Jean


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on January 08, 2010, 09:17:09 PM
Hi,
I've updated the color table, thanks to the help of Mr. Akanihin.

I forgot: Jean, I have still some color to paint before sending my chips to you. I'll make it soon.
Massimo




Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 11, 2010, 10:30:19 PM
Hi Massimo,

I coppied your colour table into MS Word, made some corrections, added few lines and organized colours chronologically:


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/VVSpaints1937-40table.jpg)


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/VVSpaints1940table.jpg)


It looks (to me) that it shows nicely what colours to use and what colours not to use for a given period.

If you like it, I can e-mail you entire word document.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on February 12, 2010, 12:38:27 AM
This is looking better and better all the time! When complete, it will really be a valuable resource for VVS modelbuilders - thank you Massimo, and Konstantin, too.

I just wish Akan paints were more available in North America. I bought the 1943 - 1945 "Six Pack Combo" immediately after Linden Hill Imports got their Akan acrylics in stock, but I overlooked the AII Z Green as an individual bottle, and it was sold out before I realized I'd missed it!  :'(

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 12, 2010, 04:09:47 PM
Quote
Hi Massimo,

I coppied your colour table into MS Word, made some corrections, added few lines and organized colours chronologically:

Hi Konstantin,
this looks a good idea. Please, send the file.
If I don't remember wrong, there should be also a table for colors before 1937.
Besides something should be clarified about AE-7, I have already expressed my idea on Arcforum but I haven't confirmations yet. If it is right, it could be the color of metallic parts of early MiG-3s. I'll ask Akanihin on this idea; it would require to compare the remains of veesivehhma depot with those of the SB of Isaac Montoya.
Quote
This is looking better and better all the time! When complete, it will really be a valuable resource for VVS modelbuilders - thank you Massimo, and Konstantin, too.

Thank you John.
I've received a link of an Ukrainan shop where those paints are available, but I don't like to buy things abroad for the difficulty of payment.

Massimo







Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: bonifaz on February 12, 2010, 10:49:36 PM
To John and Massimo,
look at your personal messages, please. ;)


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 12, 2010, 10:50:29 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

I've just sent my tables.  Hope you will find them usefull.

I have already asked Akanihin about AE-7 and he couldn't help.  The only person who may help is Orlov.  He wrote about AE-7 in 1996 and 1999.
IMHO, it is safe to keep AE-7 as AII Z equivalent.  It's questionable if this paint has ever been used on mass produced planes.  Maybe on I-15bis metal parts?  On some MiG-3s???

I doubt that Isaac can help with AE-7.  It looks that Republican planes were repainted with local paints, Spanish or posibly French.

In my opinion, most serial MiG-3s were painted with combination of AII nitro paints for fabric/wood parts and alkyd paints on metal parts.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/MiG-32-colourcopy.jpg)


Cheers,
KL
  


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 14, 2010, 07:58:54 AM
Hi Konstantin,
probably you are right, I had a look again at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=334.0 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=334.0) and its green on metallic parts looks more yellowish than on wooden parts. So the hypothesis of AE-7 for this plane is unlikely.
It persists the objection that, on photos of MiG-3s new of factory, the difference isn't visible, that led to the idea that those colors could have been more similar before a long exposition to sun.
About the shades of light blue:
(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/museum3.jpg)
in this image, the shade of the metallic part (flap) looks brighter than on wooden parts, but it could be an effect of the dust deposited due to different position of those pieces. A close look to the original pieces could be useful.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 14, 2010, 10:45:17 AM
Hi,
Thanks to Konstantin, I've updated the table of colors.
Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.
The color shown on the undersurfaces of a Spanish I-16, compatible with AII light blue, seems to confirm this.
The part on seaplanes is still veiled by mystery. I suppose that AE-10 and 14 could have been utilized, but there is not a confirmation, and their shades are unknown.
About three-colors camo: according to the templates of 1943, Il-4 and Pe-8 should have black instead of dark grey. From some photos, I suspect the same for Yak-6, even if it is listed for grey.
I've modified the part on Spanish colors too, but take in account that only four pieces of Spanish planes with original colors are known till now, they could be not fully representative.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: bonifaz on February 14, 2010, 09:14:53 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

I've just sent my tables.  Hope you will find them usefull.

I have already asked Akanihin about AE-7 and he couldn't help.  The only person who may help is Orlov.  He wrote about AE-7 in 1996 and 1999.
IMHO, it is safe to keep AE-7 as AII Z equivalent.  It's questionable if this paint has ever been used on mass produced planes.  Maybe on I-15bis metal parts?  On some MiG-3s???

I doubt that Isaac can help with AE-7.  It looks that Republican planes were repainted with local paints, Spanish or posibly French.

In my opinion, most serial MiG-3s were painted with combination of AII nitro paints for fabric/wood parts and alkyd paints on metal parts.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/MiG-32-colourcopy.jpg)


Cheers,
KL
  


Hello,
this is what I have tried on my Hobbyboss Mig.
With bad results.
As primer for metal parts I used Modelmaster aluminium. Then sprayed A18 and A19 and masked with Tamiya tape.
After removeing the tape the paint was lost. So the kit goes to the corner...
Now I had a strange idea....Can it be- ALG was used as primer under A19/A18? Or below AII too?
Then Iwill try to use Tamiya paint as ALG1. I hope the Akans stick better than...
Ron


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 15, 2010, 08:45:52 AM

Quote
Hello,
this is what I have tried on my Hobbyboss Mig.
With bad results.
As primer for metal parts I used Modelmaster aluminium. Then sprayed A18 and A19 and masked with Tamiya tape.
After removeing the tape the paint was lost. So the kit goes to the corner...
Now I had a strange idea....Can it be- ALG was used as primer under A19/A18? Or below AII too?
Then Iwill try to use Tamiya paint as ALG1. I hope the Akans stick better than...
Ron

Hi Ron,
for what I know, wooden parts were covered with yellow putty, a layer of fabric and then yellow putty again. So, yellow (similar to zinc chromate) is what one sees where the green paint is scratched over wooden parts. I am not sure that the same was for rudder and elevators, whose internal surface looks painted aluminum.
About metallic parts, I don't know if they were primered with ALG-1 on MiG-3s, that were often characterized by the loss on much paint on the left wingroot due to the pilot's boots. Propeller blades show the loss of paint at their tips. Maybe some Finnish modeler that saw the pieces in Veesiveehma could answer.

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/reb9.jpg)

(http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/reb10.jpg)

These images seem to show remains of original paint on the wingroot fillet. In my guess, they are not over a primer.

Why did you want to prime your model with aluminium? To show scratches?

Massimo




Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 15, 2010, 09:28:16 PM
Hi Massimo,  :)

I hope the others will approve changes.  To me the table looks beter organized.

Actually the table is the best list of Soviet colours currently available on the web.  On few ocasions it was mentioned as a reference on the scalemodels.ru forum.


Still there is a lot of room for improvement.  


Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.
The color shown on the undersurfaces of a Spanish I-16, compatible with AII light blue, seems to confirm this.

To include AII Blue in pre 1940 colours or not?  I would say NO. There is no evidence that blue was used for undersides between 1938 and 1940 - and there is a lot of evidence that silver was used instead:

Vahlamov and Orlov (1996 M-Hobby) say that undersides of mixed construction fighters were painted in silver in 1937-1940.  Photo below is supposed to show undersides painted with AII Al.  Thay also say that in the same period Blue disappeared from the paint asortment list.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/M-hobby1999Pg15photo.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/M-hobby1999Pg16det.jpg)


Vahlamov and Orlov (1999 M-Hobby) have published a table which shows that the beginning of use of AII Blue was in 1940, too late for I-15bis:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/M-Hobby971935-40Paints.jpg)


Maslov in his I-15bis book (2003 Rusavia monograph) says that series I-15bis upper surfaces were painted green and that undersides were painted silver.  At the end of production in 1939, entire planes were painted silver:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-15bisVariantiOkraskiMaslov.jpg)


On some e-bay photos lower wing surfaces of I-15bis look silver:

(http://s2.postimage.org/1F3MV9-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9de3.jpg)

on others they don?t - but that doesn?t mean they were blue either

(http://s3.postimage.org/mIr_9-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9de3.jpg)


Fabric fragment preserved in Finnish museum also shows silver-gray, NOT blue:  

(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/736/22443351tj4.jpg)



Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 16, 2010, 09:46:50 PM
Hi Konstantin,
The first image is interesting and I agree that the undersurface looks silver.
Unfortunately I can't see the second a third one.
The piece of fabric in the finnish museum could be from an I-153; many of them had aluminium painted fabric surfaces and grey painted metallic surfaces.
Of the photos reported on the Polish version of the monograph of Maslov, only the plane at pag.38 seems to have silver undersurfaces, and only under the fuselage and perhaps under wings, while the struts and the lower face of cowling were not metallic. The photo at pag.35 seems to show a discontinuity in the color of the upper wing between the central part and the distal part, out from fuselage struts. It's not the only one.
So, I'm starting to suspect that undersurfaces were not painted in a single color. The color of the metal parts could be light grey or light blue, but it could be different for the fabric parts under the wing and fuselage.
Some new research is required.
By the way, I have not found photos of operative I-15bis with silver overall livery, eventually only of prototypes.
Best regards
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 17, 2010, 09:47:48 PM
Massimo,  :)

AII Z (Protective green) does not belong in 1937-40 table.  Vahlamov and Orlov are very clear:

AII Blue was used starting from 1940
Lower surfaces of camouflaged planes were silver in 1938-39


Maslov also clearly describes factory scheme:

Zashtitnii green for upper surfaces and silver for undersides.

The three authors relied on documents, not the interpretation of b/w photos.  It's up to you to follow what they say or rely on your own understanding of b/w photos and published color profiles.  If you rely on "photographic evidence" only, you are  doing exactly the same what Pilawskii is doing (with well known results).


In Russian I-15bis monograph (Maslov, Rusavia 2003), all colour profiles show undersides blue, regardless of what author says in text. :-[

Quote
The first image is interesting and I agree that the undersurface looks silver.
Unfortunately I can't see the second a third one.

This photo shows undersides silver.  Note that the wing repair and tailplane are painted with different paint:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/e-baysilverundersides1.jpg)


The same plane from different angle.  Silver colour is less convincing:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/e-baysilverundersides2.jpg)


All silver I-15bis made in mid 1939:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/SilverI-15bisphoto2.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/SilverI-15bisphoto1.jpg)

All photos above show red star with inscribed black circle typical for pre 1940, i.e. factory scheme.

Cheers,  8)
KL



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 17, 2010, 10:42:34 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for photos. Now I can see them.
With all the respect for documents and authors, I believe more in what I see. For example, there are official NKAP templates of camouflages, but from photos it's obvious that they are not always respected.
About EP: I think that the main problem is not when he interpretates photos... but if he really has photos or sources other than those that are commonly available to anyone is interested, as he vaunts.
The images show clearly silver on the lower surfaces of wings, tail and fuselage. All available photos, however, show not any metallic shade under the engine cowling and landing gear struts. So things are more clear: metal surfaces were not silver, but probably AE-9 exactly as I-153, while fabric surfaces were silver. 
I see that there is a repair, close to the star on wings, that is definitely painted with a non-metallic color, probably light grey. So, it could also be that on some planes the silver paint was repainted with light grey (but it is difficult to demonstrate if this is true or false).
Thank you for the images of silver I-15bis; however I suspect that the metallic parts are painted light grey as on I-153. If it's possible to find some with tail numbers visible, one could trace some profiles.
Massimo





Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 17, 2010, 10:55:33 PM
Hi Konstantin,
I see that you are discussing the thing on Scalemodels at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_20208.html. (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_20208.html.)
Could you report my opinion there, please, and give the link of this topic, so we could know the reactions of Russian modelers?
By the way, in that topic there are some of the scans that show that, in my opinion, the underside of cowling was not painted metallic.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 21, 2010, 08:09:22 AM
Well, at this point it would be interesting to see if it's possible to demonstrate the use of silver on the undersurfaces of other types of 1937-1940, as I-16. At present time, I don't remember any image.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 22, 2010, 09:49:17 PM
Hi Massimo,
sorry for this late reply  :(

Some things are different: for example, about the use of AII light blue. The photos of types of 1938 as I-15bis don't show evidence of metallic undersurfaces, so it's reasonable to suppose that the use of AII light blue is started contemporary to AII green and light grey in 1937.

Your assumption is not correct - AII (Protective) Green and AII Light Blue were not introduced at the same time.  Beginning of use of AII Green was in mid 1937 and begining of use of AII Light Blue was in 1940.

I also made a mistake in the table and put "specification issued around 1937".  AII Light Blue specification number is actualy next to AII Tobaco Brown specification.  This also points to 1940.

Quote
With all the respect for documents and authors, I believe more in what I see. For example, there are official NKAP templates of camouflages, but from photos it's obvious that they are not always respected.


On b/w photos, you can't diferentiate  light blue from light gray,  yellow or pink.  You simpli can't use "photographic evidence" to prove that AII Light Blue was in use before 1940.

Quote
Well, at this point it would be interesting to see if it's possible to demonstrate the use of silver on the undersurfaces of other types of 1937-1940, as I-16. At present time, I don't remember any image.


Dmitri Linevich says at scalemodels.ru forum that Halkin-Gol I-16s (1939) had light gray undersurfaces. I-15bis and I-153s had silver undersurfaces.  The only plane with blue undersurfaces was TB-3 - but it was the pre-1937 blue-gray.  No AII Light Blue at Halkin-Gol!

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 22, 2010, 10:27:57 PM
Hi Konstantin,

Quote
On b/w photos, you can't diferentiate  light blue from light gray,  yellow or pink.  You simpli can't use "photographic evidence" to prove that AII Light Blue was in use before 1940.

This is right, light blue and light grey are undistinguishable on bw photos. But metallic colors are often distinguishable from non-metallic colors. The discussion on I-15bis broght a very interesting result, I wonder if it's possible to clarify in the same way the thing on I-16 and other types too.
In other words, have you ever found a photo of I-16 with totally or partially silver undersurfaces?

Quote
Dmitri Linevich says at scalemodels.ru forum that Halkin-Gol I-16s (1939) had light gray undersurfaces. I-15bis and I-153s had silver undersurfaces.  The only plane with blue undersurfaces was TB-3 - but it was the pre-1937 blue-gray.  No AII Light Blue at Halkin-Gol!
The information of Dimitri on light grey on I-16s is interestinwg, what is his source? Maybe they were partially grey and partially silver as I-15bis.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: bonifaz on February 22, 2010, 11:14:11 PM
Hi Massimo,
for me there is no reason to use AE9 in combination with AII al. AE8 is shown in the Albom so it was produced until 1946 ( Orloy wrote until the 50?r).
Ron


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on February 22, 2010, 11:31:12 PM
I should probably study a lot more before sticking my neck out on this topic, but regarding I-16 colours (and ignoring for the moment the differences between lacquers for wood/fabric surfaces and oil enamels for metal), how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

(4) photos of I-16's with overall AII Aluminum finish seem to be rare; the only ones I'm aware of are those showing "my favourite I-16":

(http://s4.postimage.org/mb7gi.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVmb7gi)

...and maybe this one, from one of Geust's "Red Stars" books, via Scalemodels.ru:

(http://s2.postimage.org/UEOai.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsUEOai)

(http://s3.postimage.org/CHYxi.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqCHYxi)


It's rather confusing - maybe someone should publish a guide to I-16 colours?  ;)

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 23, 2010, 01:47:11 AM
...how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

It's rather confusing - maybe someone should publish a guide to I-16 colours?


(1) before mid-1937 (Type 5): "Zashchitnyi" (Akan 363) upper, blue-grey (Akan 371) under surfaces

(2) between mid-1937 and 1938 (Late Type 5): overall silver (or gray???)

(3) between 1938 and mid-1940 (Type 10, 24 etc): AII Z upper, AII Gray or AII Al under surfaces???

(3) mid-1940 to mid ? 1941 (Type 29): AII Z upper, AII Light Blue undersides

(4) from summer 1941:  Black-Green scheme applied in field


Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 23, 2010, 07:30:04 AM
Quote
Hi Massimo,
for me there is no reason to use AE9 in combination with AII al. AE8 is shown in the Albom so it was produced until 1946 ( Orloy wrote until the 50?r).
Ron

Hi Ron,
for what I know, AE-8 is for metallic surfaces. For what I see on these photos of I-15bis and many I-153, the silver color is recognizable only on fabric surfaces, so the difference has to be due to the chemical medium, not to the pigment.

 
Quote
should probably study a lot more before sticking my neck out on this topic, but regarding I-16 colours (and ignoring for the moment the differences between lacquers for wood/fabric surfaces and oil enamels for metal), how wrong is the following chronology:

(1) I-16's built before mid-1937: "Zashchitnyi" (khaki; like Akan 363) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(2) I-16's built between mid-1937 and 1940: AII Green (AII Z) upper, light grey (AE-9?) under surfaces

(3) late I-16's built after 1940: AII Green (AII Z) or AII Green and Black upper, AII Blue under surfaces

(4) photos of I-16's with overall AII Aluminum finish seem to be rare; the only ones I'm aware of are those showing "my favourite I-16":



...and maybe this one, from one of Geust's "Red Stars" books, via Scalemodels.ru:

Hi John,
thank you for the images. The silver one is very nice.
To tell the truth, I don't think that the tail up I-16 is silver, but it seems that has undersurfaces of two colors anyway. There is a wide part of peeled color on the elevators, perhaps this is what happened when they utilized a color for metals over fabric.


Quote
(1) before mid-1937 (Type 5): "Zashchitnyi" (Akan 363) upper, blue-grey (Akan 371) under surfaces

(2) between mid-1937 and 1938 (Late Type 5): overall silver (or gray???)

(3) between 1938 and mid-1940 (Type 10, 24 etc): AII Z upper, AII Gray or AII Al under surfaces

(3) mid-1940 to mid ? 1941 (Type 29): AII Z upper, AII Light Blue undersides

(4) from summer 1941:  Black-Green scheme applied in field


Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,

About the undersurfaces: the Akan catalogue shows a shade of light grey-blue for planes before 1937, but I don't think that it was the same of AE-9. Eventually AE-9 and AII light grey could be the colors for 1937-40 period, but if it is so, they can't be distinguished from AII light blue on photos.
I would remember that the chips of color given by Montoya for his piece of I-16 shows a light grey-blue-green as underlying layer, and a light blue (unclear if Spanish or Russian, but not very different from AII blue) for the upper layer.
I think that we should look again on photos of I-16s to identify metallic reflex on undersurfaces. I had a look yesterday to a book and saw sugh thing on the wingroot in front of the landing gear, but not on the external part of wings of the same planes. The wingroot is a metallic part, I would expect grey or blue there, not silver.

Massimo






Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 23, 2010, 06:19:47 PM
About the undersurfaces: the Akan catalogue shows a shade of light grey-blue for planes before 1937, but I don't think that it was the same of AE-9. Eventually AE-9 and AII light grey could be the colors for 1937-40 period, but if it is so, they can't be distinguished from AII light blue on photos.

Hi Massimo,  :)

Before 1937 (or starting from approx. 1930) there was only one scheme for all planes made in series - "Zashchitniy" green for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.  Those two colours are Akan 363 and 371.  Akanihin calls 371 blue-gray and I carried over that name, but to avoid confusion it would be better to call it light blue.  This colour doesn't have anything in common with AE-9.

In 1937-38 those two colours were discontinued and replaced with new AE oil paints for metal and AII nitro-cellulose lacquers for fabric.
At the same time colour of lower surfaces changed from light blue to silver/gray.  Following photo should illustrate this change - first two planes are 1936 Type 5 with black noses and the last three planes are 1938 Type 10

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/22VHA-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9.jpg)



From the same series of photos - Type 5 showing its "old Zasht" uppersurfaces, Black nose  and "old Light Blue" undersides

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/1F67A-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9.jpg)


1938 I-16 Type 10 - AII "Zasht. (Protective)" Green on uppersurfaces and AII Gray (or AII Al) on undersides.  AE-7, AE-8 and AE-9 may have been used on metal parts

  (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/fXtkJ-8effc17afd034d4951bdf13e865a9.jpg)


Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on February 23, 2010, 08:34:51 PM
Hi Konstantin! These are splendid images - I'll definitely be saving them! Thank you very much!

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on February 23, 2010, 08:54:57 PM
Thanks Konstantin for these excellent photos and the information.
One detail regarding the landing gear of the Type 5?s:the inner side of the cover and landing gear legs look like they?re painted in black.One spanish modeller told me once that a mechanic from the Spanish Civil War recalled that the I-16 Type 5?s had the same feature,including the wheel wells.greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 24, 2010, 12:21:19 PM
Quote
Hi Massimo, 

Before 1937 (or starting from approx. 1930) there was only one scheme for all planes made in series - "Zashchitniy" green for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.  Those two colours are Akan 363 and 371.  Akanihin calls 371 blue-gray and I carried over that name, but to avoid confusion it would be better to call it light blue.  This colour doesn't have anything in common with AE-9.

In 1937-38 those two colours were discontinued and replaced with new AE oil paints for metal and AII nitro-cellulose lacquers for fabric.
At the same time colour of lower surfaces changed from light blue to silver/gray.  Following photo should illustrate this change - first two planes are 1936 Type 5 with black noses and the last three planes are 1938 Type 10





From the same series of photos - Type 5 showing its "old Zasht" uppersurfaces, Black nose  and "old Light Blue" undersides




1938 I-16 Type 10 - AII "Zasht. (Protective)" Green on uppersurfaces and AII Gray (or AII Al) on undersides.  AE-7, AE-8 and AE-9 may have been used on metal parts

 


Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for having found really excellent images! Where are them from?

By sure, they rove the discontinuity in coloring of the lower surfaces between before 1937 and after. Just I can't say if the later undersurfaces are silver, gloss light grey or a mix of them. Maybe some further photos of wrecks could help.

Quote
One detail regarding the landing gear of the Type 5?s:the inner side of the cover and landing gear legs look like they?re painted in black.One spanish modeller told me once that a mechanic from the Spanish Civil War recalled that the I-16 Type 5?s had the same feature,including the wheel wells.greetings.

Hi Martin, the restored plane in Cuatro Vientos has black undercarriages too. I thought that this was wrong, but perhaps it isn't.

Massimo



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 24, 2010, 08:31:43 PM
Photos are from the Internet.  I saved them recently, but can't remember where from...  :(

The photo group is widely known and I will post more photos from my hard-drive.   But first, this is what "military historian" writes about the colours of I-16 Type 5:


I-16 Type 5 "9"
Pilot  unknown
12 IAP VMF-KBF
ca. August 1937  

(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/type5/i16-t5-w9.gif)

I-16 Type 5 number "9" is one of those pesky aircraft on which I cannot determine which colour is the actual numeral, and which is the trim! Is it "Red 9"; "White 9"? I really do not know. Number "9" was thought to belong to the Navy's 12 IAP of the Baltic Fleet, and was photographed in August 1937.

This aircraft was finished in a typical AII Green over Blue finish (or, possibly the earlier AEh lacquers of similar colour; the appearance of these paints was quite close, so this detail is not critical from a modeling perspective) of a worn shade, and has a black cowling. The numeral is unusually large, but in this photograph's line-up such a feature appears to be entirely normal. The spinner looks to be yellow (white spinners are also present on some other aircraft).

Many of the machines in this photo are fitted with an SL-17 camera. As well, many of the crew are turned out in their dress uniforms. It is possible that the photo was taken on the occasion of the VMF's aerial gunnery competition for 1937, which was indeed hosted by the Baltic Fleet (KBF) in August. Otherwise, the appearance of so many gun-cameras on Type 5 aircraft is rather unusual.

Number "9" wears plain red national star markings in six positions, including the wing upper surfaces. The appearance is rather neat, and despite some small wear the aircraft is well cleaned.  


?Black Nose? indicates 1936.  As we know now, AII Green (a.k.a. AII Z or AII Protective Green) appeared in summer 1937 and AII Light Blue in 1940.  AEh paints appeared in 1937, so this particular I-16 wasn't painted with AII or AEh paints.

Olive green is a total miss ? pre-war ?Protective Green? was dark green!

Red stars should be outlined in black.  Stars without outline were standard from summer 1941 to September 1943.

1937 is impossible ? first I-16 Type 10 were completed in February-March 1938 and sent to Spain!  Actually, all I-16s Type 10 made in first 6 months of 1938 were sent to Spain.  More realistic date for the photo group would be autumn 1938 or 1939.

Cheers,
KL



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on February 24, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
Hello Massimo:

...the restored plane in Cuatro Vientos has black undercarriages too. I thought that this was wrong, but perhaps it isn't.
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 25, 2010, 08:15:45 AM
Continued:

Photos were taken in 1938, this is confirmed on the back of one of the photos.

Following two photos better show Type 17 (not Type 10, sorry  ::)) undersides  


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/ba7eec7861ea.jpg)


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/2756eedab339.jpg)

There is no metallic reflection on undersides, note the difference between undersides and the steel cowling ring.  Light gray seems to be a valid gues  ::).  If so, the combination of AII Gray and AE-9 is possible.

According to Vahlamov and Orlow (1996), the beginning of use of the silver AE-8 was in late 1938 or in 1939 - between 1 and 2 years after light gray AE-9.  There is no AE-8 on these photos!  This may also explain light gray AE-9 cowlings of 1938 I-15bis.


Again, Type 5 in pre-1937 colours

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/06de8441b945.jpg)


and pesky I-16 Type 5 number "9".  Is it "Red 9"; "White 9"? I really do not know.  ;D

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/775a950418e5.jpg)


Cheers,  8)
KL



Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 25, 2010, 11:32:24 AM
Quote
Photos were taken in 1938, this is confirmed on the back of one of the photos.

Following two photos better show Type 17 (not Type 10, sorry  ) undersides 


Hi Konstantin,
thank you for all these beautiful images.

Quote
There is no metallic reflection on undersides, note the difference between undersides and the steel cowling ring.  Light gray seems to be a valid gues  .  If so, the combination of AII Gray and AE-9 is possible.

According to Vahlamov and Orlow (1996), the beginning of use of the silver AE-8 was in late 1938 or in 1939 - between 1 and 2 years after light gray AE-9.  There is no AE-8 on these photos!  This may also explain light gray AE-9 cowlings of 1938 I-15bis.

gloss grey looks fully compatible with images. This could mean that silver undersurfaces could be still looked for on the wide amount of photos of wrecks on aero'n'aero. or other sites.

Quote
The photo group is widely known and I will post more photos from my hard-drive.   But first, this is what "military historian" writes about the colours of I-16 Type 5:

To tell the truth, those inconsistencies are minimal if compared to other ones from the same source.
However, about the tail number my idea is consistent with him: red with white outline.  In another image there is another number on a tail, dark with light outline, possibly 5 or 6.

On plane 9, note that the metal part on stabilizer's root is darker than the wooden fuselage, the contrary of what was commonly seen on MiG-3s.

Quote
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.

Really? Pity, it looked convincing to my eye.
Do you know it for sure? Can this be revealed from photos, for what you know?
In another room there is a scaled down replica.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on February 26, 2010, 08:59:12 AM
Continued:
Quote
thank you for having found really excellent images! Where are them from?

photos are saved from http://www.forumavia.ru/forum/8/9/3788046170264537798121171695289_2.shtml

It is explained there that planes belonged to 13-ой АЭ 61-ой АБ ВВС КБФ = 13th Avio Squadron of the
61st Avio Brigade of the Red Baltic Fleet

Winter War I-16 and I-15bis from same unit at: http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/Sov-Fin/Sov-Fin.html


Quote
To tell the truth, those inconsistencies are minimal if compared to other ones from the same source.

It's not about inconsistencies - it's about misinformationWrong date, wrong unit, wrong colour.

Quote
Quote
Regarding the I-16 of Cuatro Vientos museum,as far as I know,the colours and camouflage pattern of "nationalist side" are not accurate.And I think that the plane itself is a mock up,not a restored plane.

Really? Pity, it looked convincing to my eye.
Do you know it for sure? Can this be revealed from photos, for what you know?

100% sure, it's replica.  Not a single Republican plane was preserved in Spain.  I-15 is also a replika but with some original parts (M-25 engine).
Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on February 26, 2010, 09:02:47 PM
Thanks Konstantin for sharing all these beautiful photos.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on February 28, 2010, 05:46:21 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Winter War I-16 and I-15bis from same unit at: http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/Sov-Fin/Sov-Fin.html
really nice links. There is even a photo of a silver/grey I-15bis, unfortunately codes are not visible.
Quote
It's not about inconsistencies - it's about misinformation.  Wrong date, wrong unit, wrong colour.
Well, it's not so funny as when he wrote that Germans repainted wrecks for shooting better photos. Pity that all the old posts of Hobbyvista were lost.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: bonifaz on March 01, 2010, 12:36:00 AM
Hi Massimo,
you want to be funny ;D
here http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Doodle/part1.php it is ;)
I will be waiting for part two...I want to learn about German thinking from a great historian (I am just a student). I understand now, why the uncle of my grandfather was so hungry and frozen in Russia...because the "F?hrer" wants to show captured Sovietplanes in German colors...There was no reason enought to send food and cloth. ???
But if I am wrong ( may be) I want to see documents or ( and ) interviews about this topic.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 02, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Quote
Hi Massimo,
you want to be funny
here http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Doodle/part1.php it is
I will be waiting for part two...I want to learn about German thinking from a great historian (I am just a student). I understand now, why the uncle of my grandfather was so hungry and frozen in Russia...because the "F?hrer" wants to show captured Sovietplanes in German colors...There was no reason enought to send food and cloth.
But if I am wrong ( may be) I want to see documents or ( and ) interviews about this topic.

Hi Ron,
I guess that I'm not the only one that finds his theory... too original.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on March 02, 2010, 06:46:16 PM
I guess that I'm not the only one that finds his theory... too original.

E. Pilawskii?s theory is a total nonsense!

This text shows how narrow Pilawskii?s scope is ? if something is different from what he had seen before ? it?s suspicious, fake.  American soldiers also took thousands of photos of wrecked German and Japanese planes at the end of WWII.  Those who are interested in German jets or Japanese camouflage schemes reffered to them since.  Nobody questioned reliability of those photos the way Pilawskii does.  Only detail that was questioned is colour on color photographs.

Pilawskii?s text also shows that he doesn?t realize that he is responsible for what he writes.  To present such an improbable theory and to say at the end that it ?will never be provable? is, rather.. well...  irresponsible.

If he has a theory, he should try to proof it.  Is he interviewing German veterans?  Is he trying to find proof in German archives?  No? he is waiting for ?some old German to pop up to say, "oh, yes, I did paint that, by the way..."


Quote
I understand now, why the uncle of my grandfather was so hungry and frozen in Russia...because the "F?hrer" wants to show captured Sovietplanes in German colors...There was no reason enought to send food and cloth.


Ron, I really liked better your original post written in anger.  Pilawskii?s text does show Germans as strange people.

BTW, Pilawskii has already been called Munchhausen on scalemodels.ru forum.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 02, 2010, 11:26:01 PM

Quote
Quote
I guess that I'm not the only one that finds his theory... too original.
E. Pilawskii?s theory is a total nonsense!

Hi Konstantin,
I meant this, of course.
By the way, I had the suspect that he hates a lot that profile of MiG-3 with strange polichromatic camouflage that I made from the famous photo; at first he wrote his theory that it was simply grey over green, then, after some months, that it was repainted by Germans...
I hadn't suspected that a simple profile could inspire such insane theories.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on April 01, 2010, 01:31:36 AM
Hey Massimo - Regarding paint colours and matching of hobby paints, this article from the Cybermodeler site looks very interesting:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/intro2.shtml

I can think of some possibilities, which unfortunately will probably never happen:
(1) Apply this technique to various GPW artifacts, such as those at the museums in Finland;
(2) Apply it to the Albom Nakrasok;
(3) Apply it to the Akan range of paints, although that's unfair to Mr. Akanikhin, but it would allow those who do not have the opportunity to buy these paints to find equivalents which are more easily available.

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 01, 2010, 08:14:45 AM
Topic Summary
Posted on: March 31, 2010, 05:31:36 PMPosted by: John Thompson 
Insert Quote
Hey Massimo - Regarding paint colours and matching of hobby paints, this article from the Cybermodeler site looks very interesting:
Quote
http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/intro2.shtml

I can think of some possibilities, which unfortunately will probably never happen:
(1) Apply this technique to various GPW artifacts, such as those at the museums in Finland;
(2) Apply it to the Albom Nakrasok;
(3) Apply it to the Akan range of paints, although that's unfair to Mr. Akanikhin, but it would allow those who do not have the opportunity to buy these paints to find equivalents which are more easily available.

John

 
Hi John,
yes, this technique seems interesting. It could be an interesting publicity for AKAN colors to be mentioned aside to those of other firms.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 05, 2010, 05:18:09 PM
Hi,
I've written to the holder of that site. He would be interested to see chips of Akan paints for Soviet planes to include them but he lacks of chips of colors to scan. Is there anyone, here, owing that paints and willing to make some chips for him and for me for a direct comparison with FS and other catalogues, please?
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on April 06, 2010, 12:51:49 AM
Hi,
I've written to the holder of that site. He would be interested to see chips of Akan paints for Soviet planes to include them but he lacks of chips of colors to scan. Is there anyone, here, owing that paints and willing to make some chips for him and for me for a direct comparison with FS and other catalogues, please?
Massimo

I've got the six acrylic colours included in the "WWII Soviet Aviation 1943-45 Six-Pack Combo", as it's called on the Linden Hill site; these are A-14, AMT-7, AMT-11, AMT-12, AII KR Red, and white. I'm hoping to get 2 or 3 other colours from Linden Hill, when and if he gets a restock of some sold out ones, but this will probably not be soon. What size of colour samples does Benolkin need in order to take measurements? Where do I send them?

Perhaps there are some European modelbuilders who have other Akan paints to provide samples?

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2010, 10:43:08 AM
Quote
I've got the six acrylic colours included in the "WWII Soviet Aviation 1943-45 Six-Pack Combo", as it's called on the Linden Hill site; these are A-14, AMT-7, AMT-11, AMT-12, AII KR Red, and white. I'm hoping to get 2 or 3 other colours from Linden Hill, when and if he gets a restock of some sold out ones, but this will probably not be soon. What size of colour samples does Benolkin need in order to take measurements? Where do I send them?

Perhaps there are some European modelbuilders who have other Akan paints to provide samples?

John

Thank you John, :)
perhaps it's better to wait that you receive further paints before sending chips.
I don't think that any particular size is preferred.
Please, keep me informed.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 07, 2010, 12:02:39 PM
Hi,
I've asked informations about the relic of an I-15bis preserved in the Finnish Air Force Museum to its director, Mr.Rauni Valtonen.
He has kindly sent to me a photo of a piece of fabric, where both part of a red star with black outline and of the green are visible.
The green is olivish and not particularly dark, so AII green looks very likely. The piece of fabric looks silver on its inner face.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on April 08, 2010, 06:40:47 AM
I've asked informations about the relic of an I-15bis preserved in the Finnish Air Force Museum to its director, Mr.Rauni Valtonen.
He has kindly sent to me a photo of a piece of fabric, where both part of a red star with black outline and of the green are visible.
The green is olivish and not particularly dark, so AII green looks very likely. The piece of fabric looks silver on its inner face.

Hi Massimo,

Great news!!!

When was this I-15bis shot down, during the Winter War or later during the Continuation War? If it was a Continuation War victim, AMT colours are an option.  What was the colour of lower surfaces?

Akanihin?s AII Z (AII Green) or AKAN No 318 should be authentic; it is based on a factory (Zavod 1?) piece of fabric painted with AII Z which is now in M. Orlov?s collection.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/OrlovAkanihinOriginalAIIZ.jpg)
M. Orlov (left) and A. Akanihin comparing AII Z sample with ?Albom Nakrasok? samples.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/AKANNo318-originalAIIZ.jpg)

AKAN 318 compared with the original AII Z painted piece of fabric from Orlov?s collection.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 08, 2010, 01:29:41 PM
Hi Konstantin,
here are some answers from Mr. Valtonen.

They have some parts of I-15bis c/n 5275. This fighter made a forced landing on the frozen Lake Kiantaj?rvi in the Northern Finland in December 1939. The pilot survived but the aircraft sank through the ice to the bottom.
In 1972 an attempt to salvage the wreck was made. A wire was fastened to it and it was then dragged along the bottom some 3 km to the shore by a boat.
During this operation the wreck was nearly destroyed. For example the engine came off and lies still in the lake.
In their stores they have the fuel tank, a one meter long piece of the rear fuselage top skin, a piece of the exhaust collector and small pieces of fuselage, wing and landing gear covering.

I'll publish the image soon.

Best regards
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 08, 2010, 08:22:09 PM
By the way, I can't see your images.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on April 09, 2010, 12:16:24 AM
By the way, I can't see your images.
Massimo

Is it better now???
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 09, 2010, 12:26:44 PM
Hi Konstantin,
yes, now I see them.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 14, 2010, 07:03:52 AM
Hi,
here is the image of I-15bis kindly sent by Mr. Valtonen.
Massimo

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1364/i15bisvrinyterid.th.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/i15bisvrinyterid.jpg/)


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: John Thompson on April 25, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
This may be of interest - Michael Benolkin's first steps into the treacherous swamp of VVS GPW colour analysis ;) :

http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/vvs_comp.shtml

John


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2010, 07:27:06 AM
Hi,
I've one doubt on his method. He supposes that colors scanned with the same scanner give an homogeneous comparison. In my experience, scanners have a regulation system, so a color is reproduced also in function of the circustant colors. I would see the image of chips scanned side-by-side.
Besides, often I don't recognize the shade of known colors on the monitor. It could be a problem of regulation, I know...
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on April 26, 2010, 09:41:03 PM
This may be of interest - Michael Benolkin's first steps into the treacherous swamp of VVS GPW colour analysis ;) :

It?s good to have someone with experience and knowledge (fresh ideas also count) dealing with this subject.

IMHO, comparing Vahlamov, Orlov and Akanihin on one side with Pilawskii on the other side is like comparing apples and oranges.  Russian authors relied on archival data and created a coherent story.  Pilawskii ignored (and continues to ignore) relevant historical facts and made a chaotic mess.

Comparing Russian authors, Pilawskii and Testors paints would be like comparing apples, oranges and (something like) meteorites.  There we have authors who quote their sources, author who hides his sources but explains his methodology and finally something totally unknown: no sources, no methodology.

Bedolkin?s exercise makes sense if some useful conclusions are made:
?   If colour chips that are supposed to represent the same paint differ so much, some of them are closer to truth and others are wrong
?   If there are no Akan chips for some of Pilawskii colours, maybe those colours never existed? like "tractor green" or "factory green"

Approach illustrated with a following comment:  ?I have a hunch that they're all correct depending on who produced the paint and how old paint sample was by the time it was viewed for study? is unproductive.  We will never learn how those paints really looked if we keep thinking that way.

How can he prove that Soviet paints were ?something that didn't exactly follow a rigid standard????  I can only say that standards did exist.


How about this scenarion:
Russian researcher wants to define US Olive Drab color.
  He first examines several P-63s and P-39s in Russian museums.  He ignores the fact that those exhibits were repainted many times.  He only concludes that their colours are different.
   Then he examines hundreds of black and white photos.  Again he finds variability ? all kinds of gray shades.
   Finally he gets samples of several wrecks.  Some are from Arctic lakes, other from Ukrainian mud, some might have been repainted while in VVS service, but he ignores all this and only concludes that they are all different.
The conclusion of this Russian researcher is that Americans may have had FS, but they didn?t stick to it; any green colour was good for Olove Drab.  Is this a valid conclusion, or not?


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2010, 10:45:02 PM
Hi Konstantin,
to me, it looks reasonable that Benolkin doesn't take a position, having not made his own personal researches. The comparison of shades is interesting... even if I don't recognize them at all on my screen, many greens looks browns.
One should suggest that the AII green of Akan shouldn't be compared to AII dark green, whose supposed use is for bands only, but with AII (light) green for solid uppersurfaces.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on April 26, 2010, 11:26:54 PM
to me, it looks reasonable that Benolkin doesn't take a position, having not made his own personal researches. The comparison of shades is interesting...

Hi Massimo,  :)

I hope that Benolkin will soon learn why Vahlamov, Orlov and Akan are different than Pilawskii and why he can't compare them side by side.

Position that Soviet paints were ?something that didn't exactly follow a rigid standard? is Pilawskii's position.  Again, I hope that Benolkin will change that position.

One should suggest that the AII green of Akan shouldn't be compared to AII dark green, whose supposed use is for bands only, but with AII (light) green for solid uppersurfaces.

There was no AII Dark Green - AII Light Green scheme.  It's Pilawskii's misinterpretation of some, AMT-4 / AMT-6, black-green camouflaged planes.

Only one AII green was mass produced and used between 1938 and mid-1941:  check my post April 07 post ;).

Cheers,
KL
 


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Dark Green Man on May 03, 2010, 06:43:41 AM
there are 5 Olive Drabs in use with the USAAF from 1940-1945
and no shade of green will match any of them as they are all Brown.
(don't ask me why they cal it Olive Drab)
originally stemming from RFC green (that is also brown)these shades run the gamut from dark brown to medium brown and some with hints of green.
when cadmium was removed from the mix the paint's ability to resist weathering was dramatically reduced and one P-38 unit in Africa said their planes faded to bright purple ???
so it is no surprise to find a lot of variation in these later batches of paints and it is then further compounded by the particular location and weather these wrecks had encountered since the war ended.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Graham Boak on May 03, 2010, 05:34:53 PM
That there were several different OFFICIAL Olive Drabs, at different times (although not all Air Force, I believe?) is just a matter of observing the chronology.  Beyond that, there is massive evidence that no close control was observed over the colour as applied in the factories - this is most noticeable on C-47s, where wings have a greeny-grey, fuselages a lighter almost sandy brown, and tails a dark green, but can also be seen on B-17s and other types.  This is apart from the existence of other colours such as Medium Green.

Whether you call olive a green or a brown is partly a matter of individual taste, as it dwells on the border of these colours.  However I think few will agree with you that all ODs were brown, most appearing distinctly green, at least when new.  Some faded brown, some purple, and some greeny-grey, apart from their initial differences, which makes modelling them so fascinating! 

To get back to the original comment, yes the hypothetical Soviet observer would be quite right in assuming that little colour control was applied to the production of OD, at least during the peak year of the early 40s.  It is clear why similar flexibility has been assumed to apply to Soviet paint production, which would have much better reasons.  Perhaps too much is made of this.  However, to claim totally rigid observation of colour seems equally unsupportable.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Dark Green Man on May 04, 2010, 07:15:10 AM

from what I read Olive Drab 319 was for ground vehicles but also found it's way onto aircraft-the C-47,P-38 and B-17 if I recall correctly.
Paul Lucas did a nice write-up of this in Quarter Scale Modeler volume three issue 2
on pages 19-21.
(you wouldn't by any chance have Volume 1 issue 4 ?)


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Graham Boak on May 04, 2010, 01:44:27 PM
I'm afraid I strongly believe that tales of non-aircraft paint getting onto aircraft on production lines are urban myths.  If OD319 was used on aircraft, then it was in a paint designed for aircraft use, but I'm not familiar with it.

I'll check, but being a 1/72 modeller I didn't normally buy Quarter Scale Modeller.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Dark Green Man on May 04, 2010, 06:28:55 PM
perhaps I have mis-interpreted it as for ground equipment as it is an Army Corps of Engineers color , not one from the Army Air Corps or Army Air Forces.
not being a ground vehicle expert I can't really say if they used in tanks,jeeps,trucks,etc.
or if they used Field Green or OD Green or something else.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Graham Boak on May 04, 2010, 06:57:18 PM
There were a series of colour schemes prepared for the 9thAF in North Africa using Corps of Engineers paints, but none of these designs seem to have been used.  It is suggested that the light colour seen on North African Bostons and Mitchells was a CoE paint, but in lieu of confirmation I have my doubts..


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on May 20, 2010, 08:32:49 AM
Hypothetical Russian researcher Э. Пелявский strongly believes that US Olive Drab was green, or sometimes black.  His conclusion is based on P-39 and P-63 in Russian museums:

Monino

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/P-39Monino2008.jpg)


Poklonaya Gora

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/aerocobra.jpg)


Severomorsk

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/-39_1_1.jpg)


monument in Yakutsk

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/yakutsk_pamyatnik.jpg)


similar Olive Drab can be found on models and book covers

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/1514.jpg) (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/df8e6d915a21.jpg)

Does any of the five official OD colours corespond to the green or black colour on posted photos?


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Graham Boak on May 20, 2010, 04:40:47 PM
I'm not sure where the five official versions come from.  For my source I use Archer's books for Monogram and Schiffer.

Prewar there was shade 22 Olive Drab, with additions 31 Dark Olive Drab and 35 Light Olive Drab.  The prewar colours were replaced by shade 41 Dark Olive Drab, although shade 31 Dark Olive Drab was retained for Temporary camouflage finishes.  The difference between these two appears to be minimal. The US Army (not Army Air Force) had Field Drab No.303 and Olive Drab No 319.  For the USAAF from September 1943 there was an agreed set of common Army/Navy colours which included No 613 Olive Drab.  There has been considerable discussion as to whether the AN colours ever saw significant use, as by the time they were coming available the USAAF had largely abandoned the use of camouflage.  There also appears to have been an attitude of "not invented here" behind their lack of use.  However, in the case of Dark OD the two colours seem to have been identical anyway.

So for the duration of WW2 the only official OD in common use on USAAF aircraft was shade 41 Dark Olive Drab.  Shade 22 will have been long gone, but there could have been some early use of shade 31, and some late use of No.613.  I don't think either of these would have been applicable to P-39s, and all three standards appear to be identical in hue.

As said before, the paint actually applied were not subjected to strong colour control, at least in the early (US) war years.  Therefore a considerable range of hues could be seen in the field, particularly after differential fading, as can be seen in many photographs and mentioned in contemporary records.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 20, 2010, 09:04:48 PM
Hi KL,

Quote
Hypothetical Russian researcher Э. Пелявский strongly believes that US Olive Drab was green, or sometimes black.  His conclusion is based on P-39 and P-63 in Russian museums:

Translating this name, one could note some irony....

However, it's possible that some P-63s flew with green paint, they were repainted at the end of the war. Russian colors, of course.

Hi Graham,
so, the only OD 41 generated all that mess of light and dark colors, brownish, yellowish and greenish?
One could suspect that they could even have made disruptive camouflages all with the same color from different cans. (I'm joking, OC)

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Graham Boak on May 21, 2010, 06:03:26 PM
The British were prepared to accept OD41 as a substitute for either Dark Green or Dark Earth.  Presumably not both on the same aircraft......

If you look at C-47s and B-17s, you can clearly see the existence of different shades where major subassemblies have been built by different subcontractors.  C-47s had pinkish brown fuselages and green wings, B-17s dark fins.  At least one early British modelling reference described the early C-47s as being in Dark Earth.  Memory stutters, but I think this survived to the early Airfix kit.


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 12, 2010, 02:43:01 PM
Hi,
I've receved chips of colors of Akan kindly supplied by Troy Smith.
These paints are: AII red, AII z, AII lt blue, A.-14, AMT-4, AMT-6, AMT-7, 11, 12.
I'll find matches to Humbrol paints soon.
To tell the truth, they're dark and semigloss. I'll make new chips of Humbrol for the comparison, my previous ones are very matt and this alters the perception.
If anyone has different colors to find matches, they'll be welcome.
Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 21, 2010, 05:27:33 PM
Hi,
I've made a direct comparison between Akan chips kindly supplied by Troy and my own Humbrol.
All the colors were scanned in one time, but some correction with Photoshop was necessary all the same to make colors more uniform (they change very much between semigloss and matt due to mixing) and to reflect what I see with my eyes.


(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6948/comparison1m.th.jpg) (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/comparison1m.jpg/)
(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6948/comparison1m.jpg)

AMT-4 is close in darkness to 116, but the hue is more similar to 117; a mix of them should be perfect, but I'm prone to use 117, that is lighter, as my favourite match.
114 is a fair match too, but it's out of catalogue.

116 is fairly similar to AII green too, that is a bit more green. A mix of 116 and 75 should be good.
AII blue is very close to 65, just a bit darker.

AMT-7 is close to 89, but a bit more greyish.

A-14 is close to 5 and 27, but a bight more light and neutral. Other matches could be found.

AMT-11 of Akan surprised me for its darkness. 144 is a bit lighter and more bluish, and I think to use this paint as a match, even if probably there are closer ones still to check.

Massimo





Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: learstang on June 21, 2010, 09:07:58 PM
Nice job Massimo!  Very useful.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on June 22, 2010, 12:38:16 AM
Very well done Massimo,it?s a very useful comparison table.Couldn?t you find one match to AMT-12? Perhaps it could be achieved by mixing paints only.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 22, 2010, 12:57:35 PM
Hi Jason and Martin,
thank you for your kind words.
About AMT-12, I think that 67, tank grey, could be a fair match. But I haven't any can now, I'll have to buy. I suppose that it could be a bit lighter than the chip of Akan, but for a dark color a bit of sun is sufficient to make a change.

Massimo


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: marluc on June 22, 2010, 01:44:58 PM
Hello Massimo:

I was surprised by the fact that all the colours in the samples are darker than expected.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: learstang on July 01, 2010, 06:07:45 PM
Hello Massimo:

I was surprised by the fact that all the colours in the samples are darker than expected.Greetings.

Martin

I know what you mean, Martin.  Those AKAN colours all look very dark to me.  Too dark, to be honest.

Regards,

Learstang


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: KL on July 05, 2010, 11:18:06 PM
I was surprised by the fact that all the colours in the samples are darker than expected.Greetings.

I know what you mean, Martin.  Those AKAN colours all look very dark to me.  Too dark, to be honest.

Also recently from Greg C. on Searching for VVS Photos tread:
Quote
Having played-around a bit with the AKAN paints I have, to my eye, they cannot be made to represent the contrast I routinely see in pictures like this one.  Furthermore, I don't think lightening due to sun exposure or weathering sufficiently explains this lack of contrast....

Too dark compared to what? Lack of contrast compared to what?
Real planes more than 60 years ago? Or black and white photos of those planes?
Or museum exhibits?

In my opinion Akan paints are the most authentic paints available.  Akanihin relayed on Vahlamov & Orlov's research, had accsess to archival sources and wrecks/relics.  Most important, he is not keeping his sources secret.

For modellers who think Akan paints are to dark, consider following:
  • make them lighter for scale effect
  • make them lighter for weathering/ageing/bleaching (paint degradation due to sunlight etc.)

Happy modelling,  8)
KL


Title: Re: provisional table of colors
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 12, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
Hi,
I've added a photo of a fragment of early Pe-2 showing color A-18f and underlying ALG-1 with greenish hue to this page: http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html (http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html)
(http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1940-1941/pe2under.jpg)
Image of Tapani Tuomanen.
Regards
Massimo