Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Lend-lease planes => Topic started by: marluc on May 22, 2010, 05:31:24 PM



Title: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 22, 2010, 05:31:24 PM
Hello:

I?ve found these photos of Hurricane "white 42" Z2585 on scalemodels.ru and I would like to know your point of view regarding its paint scheme.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIb_42blanco_Z25852.jpg)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIb_42blanco_Z25853.jpg)

This is a profile I?ve found in the same post:
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/perfilHurricane_42blanco.jpg)

I agree that it?s a Hurricane MkIIa with Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky,but the light coloured patches on both sides of the fuselage don?t look like grey or dirty white,at least to me.And what looks like snow over the nose,could it be extended paint chipping?
Please,let me know what you think,your help is very appreciated.Thanks in advance,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 22, 2010, 08:58:47 PM
Hi Martin,
it's strange... the white dots on the nose and wingroots are chipping, by sure... besides there is a small light trace close to the red star on the photo of the fuselage on a truck, but not really a white outline.
I suspect that the plane had been white for some reason.
Couldn't it have been a Sea Hurricane? Some were painted white by the Royal Navy, I think.
If so, the painting could be Russian green with sky undersurfaces.
The bands on the sides... some light grey?  Note that there is a second band under the horizontal tail surface on the left side.
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage.
I don't see strong evidence of disruptive camo, at least not with the outlines shown on the profiles.
Maybe the specular scheme is a bit more possible... with Russian green rear fuselage.
Beside I see a rectangle, possibly red, on the guns holes.


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 23, 2010, 12:18:37 AM
Thanks Massimo for sharing your point of view.

Quote
Couldn't it have been a Sea Hurricane? Some were painted white by the Royal Navy, I think.
I don?t think so.I?m no expert but,as far as I know,the white RN Sea Hurricanes belonged to the Pacific fleet,during the final years of the war.So it?s almost imposible that one of this sea birds reached the Soviet Union.

Quote
..the painting could be Russian green with sky undersurfaces.
Taking a good look at the photos,a RAF camouflage pattern is undistinguishable;now I agree with you that it was repainted in russian green,but,why the rear fuselage Sky band and the yellow wing leading edge bands were not overpainted? The red rectangle over the gun ports is also present.

Quote
Note that there is a second band under the horizontal tail surface on the left side.
I think it?s light reflection on the flat surface under the horizontal surface.The bands on the side must be light grey,there?s no other option.

Quote
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage
I see it too,another shade of green perhaps?

It?s hard to make a good interpretation of this Hurricane.Thanks again Massimo for your help,greetings.

Martin



Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 23, 2010, 07:45:15 AM
Hi Martin,
I've built a Sea Hurricane of a unit escorting convoys to Murmansk, if I remember well, from the Revell kit, and it was painted white.
Perhaps there is some vague shadow of camo on the nose...
I suppose that this was a Sea Hurricane painted white, repainted brown and green by English before delivery. The camouflage was specular to that shown on the profiles. Then the Russians had to repaint something on the sides, perhaps because the plane changed its unit, and had to repaint the sides of rear fuselage with green. To restore the previous camouflage, Russians utilized their closest equivalent to Dark Earth, that was AMT-1, neatly lighter than the British color.
So, the painting scheme of the decals sheet could be utilized as likely, with the modifications due to match this idea .
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on May 23, 2010, 10:46:49 AM
Z2585 was a Hurricane Mk.IIA, built by Hawkers before April 1941 and serving with 56 and 316 Squadrons before being sent to Russia on 11 December 1941.

The white Sea Hurricanes were much later, 1944 from memory, and Mk.IIc with codes in the NFxxx sequence.  Plus the Sky band on the rear fuselage rules out such a scheme.  To me this aircraft displays the low contrast of the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green and Dark Earth) with patches of two different Soviet paints - a dark shade over the finflash and star, covering any earlier markings, and a lighter patch behind the number.  I agree the second patch is too dark for white or any underside colour,

I don't see signs of a total overpaint in white, and the wear around the wingroot is fairly representative, although perhaps displaying heavier use than the rest of the airframe.  Some of the smaller white patches do not appear where heavy wear would occur - for example the outer wings and top of the cowling.  I suspect these are snow, which has not been completely cleared away after the crash, and there may be some residual snow exaggerating the wear on the wingroot.

So with minor qualifications over the colour of the local overpaints and a bit of wear, the original artwork looks very convincing.



Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 23, 2010, 02:36:07 PM
Massimo and Graham,thanks for your help.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
To restore the previous camouflage, Russians utilized their closest equivalent to Dark Earth, that was AMT-1, neatly lighter than the British color.
Do you mean that the light patches on both sides are AMT-1? It?s a logical option as it?s lighter than green and darker than white.

Z2585 was a Hurricane Mk.IIA, built by Hawkers before April 1941 and serving with 56 and 316 Squadrons before being sent to Russia on 11 December 1941.
Thanks for this good information Graham,now I?m sure this is a Hurricane Mk.IIa.

Quote from: Graham Boak
To me this aircraft displays the low contrast of the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green and Dark Earth)
So this is why the demarcation lines between colours is hard to be seen.I think that the snowy enviroment helps to this effect also.

Quote from: Graham Boak
I suspect these are snow, which has not been completely cleared away after the crash
Yes,I agree,but now I think there?s also thin layers of ice over the cowling that looks like extended paint wear.Please,take a look at this image,I?ve marked them with red arrows.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/closeup_HurricaneIIb_42blanco.jpg)

I can see that both of you arrived to the same conclusion,that the profile can be used as reference but with the modifications you mentioned.And with plain red stars,as the white bordered are totally incorrect.
Thanks again for your help,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 24, 2010, 05:05:10 PM
Hello:

I?ve been "playing" with the decal?s profiles and changed many things,using as a reference the replies by Massimo and Graham,the photos of "white 42" and the table of colours.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/modprofile_HurricaneWhite42.jpg)
The light coloured patch is AMT-1 and it don?t reach the wing root.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/modprofile2_HurricaneWhite42-1.jpg)
Here I?ve changed not only the colour of the light patch but its shape too.In both cases,I?ve erasd the white borders from the red stars.
So this is my present interpretation of Hurricane ?white 42?,any comment will be welcomed.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 24, 2010, 05:29:35 PM
Hi Martin,
in my idea, for the few shadows that I can see on the photo, you have to mirror the camouflage too.
Probably, when you do this, the AMT-1 bands could align with the dark earth ones.
The red rectangle on the gun holes is missing too.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 25, 2010, 07:17:03 PM
...,in my idea, for the few shadows that I can see on the photo, you have to mirror the camouflage too.
Probably, when you do this, the AMT-1 bands could align with the dark earth ones.
I think that,if do this,the AMT-1 patches would be of different shape as the ones in the photos.Or I?m misunderstanding your idea,perhaps.

The red rectangle on the gun holes is missing too.
You mean from the profile,isn?t it? I?ll I add them later.
Greetings

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 25, 2010, 09:20:45 PM
Hi Martin,
for what I know, British fighters could have two variations of the same camo scheme to avoid an excessive uniformity that could reveal the plane to observers: the variations were specular each other. That is, on some planes the left side of the fuselage was painted as the right side of other planes. This looks the case comparing the photos and the profile.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on May 25, 2010, 10:17:03 PM
The profile shows the A pattern, which was applied to the first aircraft of a batch.  The B pattern was the mirror image, and applied to the second aircraft, the two patterns then alternating.   However this had fallen out of use by the time of the Mk.II, with the A pattern becoming the standard for the Hurricane.

Distinguishing the pattern is difficult on these photographs, but if I had to choose I'd say it looks like the A pattern to me.


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 26, 2010, 02:14:24 AM
Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
...for what I know, British fighters could have two variations of the same camo scheme ... the variations were specular each other
Now I know what you mean Massimo,but as Graham said (thanks for the complete information),I?ve seen the B pattern applied only on Mk.I?s.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage.
This is from your first post of this thread, Massimo.The discontinuity can also be seen in the photo of fuselage on the truck,behind one of the wood bars.A decoloration of the original colour perhaps?
Gentlemen,thanks for your help,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 26, 2010, 07:40:23 PM
Hi, Martin and Graham,

Quote
The profile shows the A pattern, which was applied to the first aircraft of a batch.  The B pattern was the mirror image, and applied to the second aircraft, the two patterns then alternating.   However this had fallen out of use by the time of the Mk.II, with the A pattern becoming the standard for the Hurricane.

Distinguishing the pattern is difficult on these photographs, but if I had to choose I'd say it looks like the A pattern to me.

I'm not so sure. look at this image. If the plane was painted with the scheme B, the light patches of supposed AMT-1 correspond exactly to dark earth bands. It's hard to believe that it's a coincidence.
Massimo

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9272/color42sketch.jpg)


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 27, 2010, 01:12:27 AM
Very convincing Massimo,this inverted pattern camo became a second option for "white 42".

Another photo:
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIa_white42_Z2585.jpg)

There?s no difference between both Dark Green and Dark Earth,it looks like the tail is of a solid colour and there?s some kind of overpainting behind the tail wheel (red arrow).What do you think?
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 27, 2010, 07:19:25 AM
Hi Martin,
yes, it looks dark. Couldn't it be some dirt due to the tail wheel? Or they've repainted this part with AMT-1?
I think to see a discontinuity in color under the sencond strut of the rudder. I wonder if t's due to reflection, or what else.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on May 27, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
The colourised example has been painted into a B pattern, but it's not what I see (dimly, very unclearly).  I think I see a darker colour (the green) coming over the nose, visible only as a small segment behnd the spinner.  Then a slightly lighter area, then a darker area over the wing.  That's A pattern.  I accept that this is based only on staring at a computer screen, that the actual photos may give a different impression, and that it is far from definite.  I've no intention of jumping up and down to insist that it must be an A pattern, but that is my impression.


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on May 28, 2010, 04:04:47 AM
Hello:

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
I think to see a discontinuity in color under the sencond strut of the rudder.
I see it too,and there?s a stain of the same tone over the second rudder rib.Probably,the underside of the fuselage behind the tail wheel and the lower part of the rudder were brush painted with AII Green (or AMT-4?),perhaps due to a field repair.

Quote from: Graham Boak
I've no intention of jumping up and down to insist that it must be an A pattern, but that is my impression.
Graham,the intention of this thread is to share our differents points of view and impressions regarding the colours of this Hurricane.Just like you,I think that this plane is painted in the "A" pattern,but Massimo interpretation is very logical too.And I must say that at first glance,at least to my eyes,it looked like the plane was overpainted all over in a dark colour with light coloured patches on the sides.
Thanks to both of you for your help,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 06, 2010, 05:04:01 PM
Hello:

I?ve edited the profiles.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/profileHurricane_white42_mod2.jpg)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/profileHurricane_white42_mod21.jpg)


Looking closely at this picture,I?ve noticed that the line between the yellow leading edge band and the camouflage colour is not even,it looks a little bit dented. (green arrows in the picture).And  the red patch over the gun ports is not perfectly square,there?s some kind of overpainting. (red circle in the picture)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIa_white42_1colour.jpg)

Because of this finding and due to the fact that the RAF camo pattern is undistinguishable in all the photos of ?white 42?,I?m starting to think that this Hurricane was completely overpainted,but leaving the yellow leading edge bands.and rear fuselage sky band untouched.

So there are three colour options for this plane:

-Upper camouflage overpainted with soviet colours,but no paint over the Yellow and Sky bands.

-?B? scheme camo pattern with patches of AMT-1 replacing the Dark Earth and RAF markings overpainted with AMT-4 (or AII Green?),as proposed by Massimo

-?A? scheme camo pattern with patches of AMT-1 (or another light colour) and RAF markings overpainted with AMT-4 (or AII Green?),as suggested by Graham.

Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 06, 2010, 05:50:56 PM
Hi Martin, :)
I see the irregularities on the yellow and red stripe.
It is possible that the plane has been overpainted with Soviet colors, but it's difficult to explain why they haven't deleted the sky band nor the yellow on leading edges.
Yellow was the distinctive color of axis planes, it's difficult for me to think that Russians carefully avoided to overpaint it, if they put their brush on the wings.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on June 07, 2010, 10:47:17 AM
I also find it difficult to believe in a complete repaint that retained the Sky and yellow trim, but more significantly perhaps a complete repaint that then retouched the paint over the fin flash, for this is clearly visible.


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 08, 2010, 09:50:17 PM
I think just like you do.Perhaps,only the wing was extensively overpainted.Anyway,is really hard to make out the real appearance of this Hurricane despite the fact that many pictures are available.
Thanks Massimo and Graham for sharing your points of view and your help.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on June 09, 2010, 06:21:11 PM
The photo has also been discussed on Britmodeller. It is pointed out that the yellow leading edge was introduced with the Day Fighter Scheme of Dark Green and Ocean Grey, post August 1941.  It would not normally be seen on aircraft in the earlier scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth.

I would comment further that aircraft intended for overseas use were painted in DG/DE, if not in the Desert scheme.  Whether this would apply to an aircraft being overhauled for service in Russia is open to doubt, but seems possible.  However, the yellow trim would not be expected to be reapplied.

Do we have a date for the photo and/or delivery of this aircraft?


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 09, 2010, 10:24:05 PM
It is pointed out that the yellow leading edge was introduced with the Day Fighter Scheme of Dark Green and Ocean Grey, post August 1941.  It would not normally be seen on aircraft in the earlier scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth.

Thanks for the info Graham,so "white 42" should be DG/OG,but why the camouflage pattern can?t be seen clearly?

Do we have a date for the photo and/or delivery of this aircraft?

This is the text bellow the photos:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneWhite42_text.jpg)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneWhite42_text2.jpg)

Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on June 09, 2010, 11:51:19 PM
That's a very good question.  I can come up with three possible answers, none entirely satisfying.

1.  The aircraft was not in service at the time of the change of colours, and was not repainted before sending to Russia.  The early date makes this just about possible - this could be disproved from the service history on the aircraft's record card in the National Archives.  In this case why the yellow leading edge?

2.  The aircraft was painted in Mixed Grey rather than Ocean Grey, because of shortage of the approved paint.  The early date makes this quite likely, and the Mixed Grey was often darker than the proper colour - but not often that dark.

3.  The aircraft has been significantly repainted in Russian service - this has been discussed already and I find the arguments against this fairly compelling.

By the way, looking at the starboard side view, I can see a demarcation between the dark camouflage around the cockpit area amd a lighter colour over the cowling.  This demarcation passes over the top of the cowling ahead of the cockpit, then sweeps aft before turning downwards.  This is a classic Hurricane paint feature of the A pattern, and is another indication that the aircraft has not been fully repainted.  The dark area is partially overpainted by the light patch, making it very unlikely that the light patch could be a residual feature of an overpainted Ocean Grey scheme.  (Not that I think you imagine this, but it has been suggested elsewhere.)

Another point raised on Britmodeller: there is a dark square under the middle exhaust on the port side.  This is where the Polish insignia was when this aircraft served in 316 Sq.  This again points to the original RAF camouflage being retained, as this detail would have been obliterated in any Soviet repaint.  It would be interesting to know when the aircraft served with 316.

So far, it looks like option 1 still, but someone has painted the leading edge yellow.  Note that it appears to be too wide at the wingtip: official instructions had the width narrowing with span.  This may mean nothing more than a crude job.



Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 10, 2010, 04:22:47 AM
Hi Graham:

I?ve been reading the thread in Britmodeller: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50604
I would like to thank Kari Lumppio for his interesting comments and the information regarding the early service of Z2585.Because of this,I made a little search of the 316 Sqn "City of Warsaw" and found this link: http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html

By the way, looking at the starboard side view, I can see a demarcation between the dark camouflage around the cockpit area amd a lighter colour over the cowling.  This demarcation passes over the top of the cowling ahead of the cockpit, then sweeps aft before turning downwards.
Now I see this subtle demarcation line on the rigth side,that can also be seen in the photos taken from the rear.

Another point raised on Britmodeller: there is a dark square under the middle exhaust on the port side.  This is where the Polish insignia was when this aircraft served in 316 Sq.
Yes,you?re right.And must say that looking at the pictures of 316 Sqn Hurricanes,they had the squadron badge in the rear fuselage,bellow the antenna mast,there?s a decoloration (pointed out by Massimo in one of the replies of this thread) just at the same place in "white 42",the badge was overpainted perhaps?
Two images to be compared,Hurricane of 316 Sqn and "white 42":
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/316_4_modif.jpg)
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIa_white42_modif.jpg)

So far, it looks like option 1 still, but someone has painted the leading edge yellow.  Note that it appears to be too wide at the wingtip: official instructions had the width narrowing with span.  This may mean nothing more than a crude job.
The Hurricanes in 316 Sqn service had the Sky band in the rear but not the leading edge yellow band.So, was it painted before sending this Hurricane to the URSS? And why?
Now there?re many possible camouflage sechemes for this "white 42".Thanks for your comments,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 10, 2010, 07:35:34 AM
Hi Graham and Martin,
this imput is interesting.
The position of the repainting close to the mast pointed by Martin is interesting, and points to the deletion of the mark with the scorpion. However, if compared to the position of the mast and of rails, the repainting is located in a slightly lower and backwarded position than the mark of plane SZ, and this means that it's not exactly the same plane.
The planes seen in http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html (http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html) suggest the A scheme on the planes shown, but for me it's difficult to leave a rational explanation for the shape and position of the light repaintings, that are the only thing easily visible on the photos of 42.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Graham Boak on June 10, 2010, 10:38:14 AM
Not 67 but the squadron code SZ.


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 10, 2010, 01:51:30 PM
Quote
Not 67 but the squadron code SZ.
Thank you


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 11, 2010, 04:13:30 AM
Hello Massimo and Graham:

However, if compared to the position of the mast and of rails, the repainting is located in a slightly lower and backwarded position than the mark of plane SZ, and this means that it's not exactly the same plane.

You?re right Massimo.So,could the overpainting be the dark zone behind the sliding hood rails? (green circle in this image)
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIa_42_mod2.jpg)

And,as a matter of fact,it was not my intention to prove that the 316 Sqn Hurricane in the picture was Z2585,as it looks like all the planes in the squadron had the unit badge in the same location and on both sides.
Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 11, 2010, 07:15:14 AM
Hi Martin,
that is possible, of course. But the image seems to show a light repainting, as you puntualized the first time.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 13, 2010, 03:05:42 PM
Hello:

I?ve made modifications to the profile of "white 42" to show it as an ex-316 Sqn Hurricane,with unit code,badge and polish covered with russian greeen:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/perfilHurricane_42blanco_izq.jpg)

I used this photo of a 316 Sqn?s bird as a reference,where it looks like the triangle of the unit badge is just bellow the radio mast and the polish flag is bellow and closer to the engine exhaust,than the RAF Hurricane of the previous picture.At least to my eye,this features are just in the same place as the repaintings that can be seen on "white 42" photo,taken from the left.
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/Speke.jpg)

Are there yellow bands in the leading edge in the previous and next pictures? Or is it light reflection?
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/Wilczewski2.jpg)
This photos were also taken from here: http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html

Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on June 14, 2010, 07:18:33 AM
Hi Martin,
looking again to the fourth photo of the topic, I think to see a demarcation line under the exhaust pipes, and one behind the sky stripe, that are compatible with the B scheme. The same for a sort of shadow in front of the windshield on the third photo. My idea is always that the B scheme is the right one. Brown on brown, green on green.
Massimo


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: marluc on June 15, 2010, 10:15:49 PM
Hello Massimo:

I can see the demarcation line behind the sky band but not the one under the exhaust pipes.The "B" pattern is one of the probable schemes for "white 42",the last profile is just my interpretation of this Hurricane but it?s hard to make a definitive conclusion reagarding the real aspect of Z2585 in soviet service.
Thanks Massimo and Graham for your help,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours
Post by: Troy Smith on September 26, 2014, 09:49:50 PM
Revisiting this thread, some points.

316 Squadron swapped from Hurricane to Spitfire in November 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._316_Polish_Fighter_Squadron

Quote
Z2585 was a Hurricane Mk.IIA, built by Hawkers before April 1941 and serving with 56 and 316 Squadrons before being sent to Russia on 11 December 1941.

the 316 Sq page linked
http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/1941_hurricane_pics.html

(http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/SZ6.jpg)

Quote
Mix group of airmen and erks in front of Hurricane Mk IIA SZ-H, Z2506 late 1941

and
(http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/316/41/Speke.jpg)

Both show planes that have been repainted in Day Fighter Scheme, with a low contrast,  suggesting use of a mixed grey. 

While 42/Z2585 does not appear like this, I think this is most likely in DFS, with some large fresh patches of RAF Dark Green used to overpaint RAF MArkings and codes.

note in this image
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneIIb_42blanco_Z25852.jpg)

how the tailplanes, which are getting light off the snow, are darker than the sky band.   

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/closeup_HurricaneIIb_42blanco.jpg)
also note the spinner vs the wing root, which should be really bright if sky, from light reflected off snow. 

The patch behind the '42' on the port side is strange, fresh Ocean Grey possibly?   

There are other factors, strange lighting, due low sun and cloud, note the light is very diffuse, with no hard shadows, and possibly a coat of ice over much of the plane, giving a gloss effect.

As I have pointed out before, Lend Lease Aircraft being delivered with original national markings, be it RAF or US, are the exceptions.   Odd shoddy overpainting yes, but not VVS overpainting.
   
One area of confusing maybe the oft reproduced aircraft at NII VVS, which were sample aircraft, and repainted in a rush, or not at all, and these would have VVS overpainted markings.

Main deliveries, eg photos from Abadan and ALSIB show application of Red Star before delivery.

the other exceptions would be aircraft handed over by the RAF in Soviet Union,  eg 151 wing and some PR aircraft.  In case of 151 wing I wonder if RAF paints were used there as well, but are fresh/different batch so appear different.



Hope of interest.