Sovietwarplanes

Hello:

I think this could be a thread with all the information we can find regarding the colours of the Hawker Hurricane in soviet service.
It started here: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=23.15 Reply #28.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneII_white14.jpg)

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneII_white14_2.jpg)

It looks like the stabilators had the same colour shade as the vertical fin,so both surfaces were extensively repaired and recovered with new fabric;or they were overpainted in a light colour.


(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/HurricaneVVS_white16.jpg)

Although I?ve seen this pic many times before,I didn?t noticed the mismatched gun covers.And yes,they could be from the same sequence as #109,as the shape,size and font of the number 19 looks very similar to the number 14 of the previous Hurricane.



(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/Hurricane_50blanco.jpg)

The paint is pretty unusual but just the same as the rudder of Hurricane ?white 92?.

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/tail_white92.jpg)

I don?t think the blades are white,probably they are in natural metal.

(Sorry,no photo)It?s an impressive picture,the colours of the wing are really mismatched.And besides the repaired patch behind the cockpit you mentioned ,it looks like that zone is painted in white as part of a winter finish.

Another picture of a wing with mismatched colours:

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/hurricane-2shvak.jpg)

This Huricane has the external sections of the wing replaced by flying surfaces modified with soviet weapons.Fuselage in D.Green/D.Earth/Sky and external wings in D.Green/O.Grey/M.Sea Grey?
Greetings.

Martin

Hi Martin,
Thanks for very interesting pictures. Regarding the last one-how would you know there was anything painted in Dk.Earth/Dk.Green/Sky? As far as I know this camo called TLS (temperate land scheme) was changed before L-L deliveries started to DFS (day fighter scheme) consisting of Dk.Green/Ocean Gray/Medium Sea Grey.
I also like to warn (again) againt "Pilawskii's syndrome" i.e. judging colors, and even paint types(!), from B&W pictures. EP did "analysis" of "white 14" on his site once (cann't find it anymore) with pretty "wild" results (AII Brown, AII Green etc.). To me this machine is a typical example of PARM re-painting after somewhat extensive repair and will never find out the actual colors.
Cheers,
Mario

I believe (I know I should check...) that the Day Fighter Scheme was introduced in August 1941, which would indeed have been before the delivery of Hurricanes to the Soviet Union.  However, this introduction was at the behest of Fighter Command, and was initially restricted to the UK.  For overseas use two colour schemes remained in use, the Desert Scheme and the Temperate Land Scheme.  RAF Hurricanes in DFS overseas do not appear until late in the war.

I believe this wider appearance of DFS is linked to the production delays caused by the wide range of possible colours.  I have read that Supermarine complained about this, and later Spitfires were only produced in two schemes (one being DFS, I don't recall the other). The same is also true about Mosquitoes (PRU Blue or Night Fighter scheme).  I have not seen any comment linking this to Hurricane production, but it makes sense.  By this time the majority of RAF Hurricanes will have been intended for the Far East, where TLS was still standard, so a mix of this and DFS would seem sensible - remember that the Hurricane was still in front line use in the UK until early 1944.

Even if relevant, this standardisation appears to have been rather late for most Hurricane deliveries to the Soviet Union.  To my eye many of the pictures lack the high contrast, sky spinners, sky tail band and yellow leading edge that go with the Day Fighter scheme, or signs of overpainting to remove the same.  I don't believe that it is safe to rule out deliveries in TLS on the grounds of Fighter Command's rulings in 1941.

Hi Mario:

It?s just pure speculation,the underside colour of the Hurricane looks lighter than the underside colour of the external section of the right wing,this makes me think it was Sky.

I remember it,"white 14" had an extensive repainting but it can?t be said that it was a Dk.Earth/Dk.green Hurricane.By the way,what?s a "PARM re-painting"?

Graham,thanks for the information.

Greetings.

Martin

Martin, I can answer about the "PARM".  A PARM was a field aircraft repair shop (or field maintenance unit), Polevaya Aviaremontnaya Masterskaya in Russian.  They often did very extensive repairs of aircraft, in the case of Il-2's direct from the factories, practically rebuilding some of them due to the often poor quality they were built with.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason for your answer.Greetings.

Martin

Excellent information, thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Mario

Martin,
Just to slightly "improve" Jason's translation to
Field Aircraft Repair Workshop.
Cheers,
Mario

Thank you, Mario!  I forget where I got the translation from, but I'll change it in my book.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Mario,greetings.

Martin

Hello martin

thanks for starting this thread.  I will add more, but a quick one to start with.





First last, good idea...except that the blades on Rotol propellers are made of a compressed wood composite called 'Jablo'   This is why the crashed Hurricanes have splintered not bent blades.
as in this (borrowed from your Photos)   
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z27/marluc_foto/Hurricane/closeup_HurricaneIIb_42blanco.jpg)

second, no, the tail is not the same as '92'  the 'white' edge goes all the way round the rudder and fin. Not a light effect, as the tail is in shadow, note sun angle.
The blades maybe painted white or aluminum, or it may be a light effect, but if so, note there is no sign of the yellow tips? 
I don't know, but it's not something i have seen in other photos. 
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/whitetailstripandspinnerHIFS91.jpg)

more soon
T

Hello Troy:

Yes,you?re right,I forget that the blades were made of wood.So,I?m starting to think that it?s a light effect,the blades could be reflecting sunlight.
Greetings.

Martin

Hmm, well, black blades don don't reflect much, and why is there not trace of the yellow tips?   I don't know, but even the part of the blade in shadow looks pale.  Looking at planes with the propeller going round even in sunlight they tend to look dark, and the yellow tips show up.   

The tail marking is interesting! 

cheers
T

Yes ,it?s very interesting,I?ve never seen a picture of a soviet aircraft with a similar marking.Another point of interest is the dark rectangle of paint that covers the undersurface RAF roundel.
Greetings.

Martin

The link to this got posted somewhere on here, http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=20#

which has some fascinating (jaw dropping for me) pics of VVS Hurricanes.  If you read the thread it seems that there are 1/72nd decals of these being done.  I did PM Mikhail of Scalemodels .ru and i think 1/48th are coming.
here's the photos.  Is the text interesting?  can anyone translate?

There are colour profiles in the thread above.  That there are now 3 VVS Hurricanes with animal designs painted on the tail is fascinating.  
  
the top 3 planes are all from 767 IAP if i read the captions correctly.  

I have linked as these under "fair use" as this is a specific discussion on VVS Hurricanes markings.

Z3227, 'Lizard tail' is shown on the profiles as being DG/DE/Sky, but give the contrast between spinner and underside, think DG/OG/MSG more likely.  
Note littel red star on spinner tip.

Also, at least some Spitfires, (and presumably) Hurricanes were supplied with British applied red stars with black outlines, there are pictures in Red Stars 4 of the RAF roundels being sprayed out and the red stars applied.  

(http://s1.postimage.org/NFRIr-0fa66114.jpg)

(http://s3.postimage.org/ueWtS-0fa66114.jpg)

(http://s2.postimage.org/Ed17r-0fa66114-resize.jpg)

enjoy
T

"Also, at least some Spitfires, (and presumably) Hurricanes were supplied with British applied red stars with black outlines, there are pictures in Red Stars 4 of the RAF roundels being sprayed out and the red stars applied.  "
Line up of Spitfires, Abadan Iran, 1943, if you look carefully you can just about see the painted out RAF roundel further forward.
Also note the upperwing stars.  Later Spitfire deliveries have white outline starts with stencil breaks.  No reason that this is not also the case for many Hurricane shipments.   
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/SpitfiresforVVSIran1943.jpg)

Pictures of Spitfire VBs in VVS service in similar serial ranges do not show repainting of stars, like EP210 "white 538", EP356 "white 20".
pics of VB's used in catapult trails show added outlines. (also in Red Stars 4)

T
 

Those are some interesting Hurricanes!  I may just have to get me that decal sheet and do a Hurricane (or two).  I especially like red/white 60, with the wolves - very interesting paint scheme.  Can anyone tell if it has the Soviet armament (ShVAK's and UBS's)?  I got the Authentic Decals sheet for the two-seater Il-2's and it was very nicely done, but the decals were thin and had a tendency to break up.  If you do get their decals I recommend going over them with some suitable clearcoat.

In case I do get these decals, any suggestions for 1/72nd scale Hurricane kits?

Regards,

Jason

It is between Hasegawa and Revell.  Hasegawa is the nicest and most accurate but it may be more difficult to track down the relevant variants, which do disappear rapidly.  They did offer a Russian Mk.IIb, but the basic "Mk.Ib"(sic) boxing actually makes a good Mk.IIb but for the prop and tailwheel.  The kit suffers from over-emphasised fabric "sink", and Gunze Mr. Surfacer has been recommended to fix this.  No doubt different modellers will suggest a variety of methods.  Revell is less accurate in a number of ways, slightly narrow wing, crude fuselage fabric effect, canopy, prop/spinner, bomb fairings.....but is cheaper and simpler.  It also comes in a range of variants, including Mk.IIb, Mk.IIc and with tropical filter.

Replacement canopies are available from Falcon/Squadron, resin spinner/props from Quickboost.

Avoid any of the older Airfix, the new Mk.IIc has a narrow nose (very common on Hurricane kits) but is otherwise quite nice.  The Heller/SMER Mk.IIc/IV is well dated, the Academy mis-shapen.  If you could find an old Revell, Frog/Remus/Novo/Eastern Express, Matchbox or Aosima, don't.

AZ are about to produce a range of Mk.IVs.

Hi Jason


BM959 - White 60 is pretty famous as it was captured by the Finns.  AFAIK it still had RAF Brownings, there has never been any mention that it was regunned.  Worth asking the Finnish AF museum though.
The other schemes are brand new to me, and fascinating as well,  which is why i posted them.



Useful to know, thanks.
T

Thank you gentlemen for the information!  Looks like I'm going to have to take some time off from my Shturmoviks and do me up a Hurricane.  It would actually be a nice break.

Regards,

Jason

regarding this discussion of this pic

(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/whitetailstripandspinnerHIFS91.jpg)


I was looking through the lend-lease.ru site, and in the part
Spitfires over the Kuban
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/index.htm


Perhaps more VVS ingenuity, and the blades are Soviet replacements?  Another possibility is it has a Canadian Hamilton propeller, as these had metal blades,  with a rotol spinner.
Graham Boak, do you have any thoughts on this?

cheers
T

Hi,
this photo has something strange. Considering the direction of the sun, the upper part of the nose should be under the same light of the wings, but on the photo it appears completely dark.
Massimo

The sun is very low and forward of the aircraft, I don't find the lighting too odd.

I have seen examples of other aircraft with painted propellors - not too many! - but fail to see why they would want it to be so bright.  Given the low position of the sun, I think it is probably glare.

Where would the Russians get the Hamilton propellors from?  Then there is the engineering effort in making them compatible....no, I don't see that as likely.  If they did, then why not just do as the Canadians and fly without spinners?

Hi Graham

I suggested the Hamilton prop as that's what at least some of the Canadian planes were built with. Quite a few Canadian built Hurricanes were supplied to the VVS, some via the eastern route as well I believe. (would these still have the Hamilton props?) 
I don't know why Canadian built planes flew without spinners though, but I have seen Hamilton props fitted with spinners as well.(different to the Hurricane rotol type which is the type fitted in this picture)

Or some kind of Russian prop blade? Due to a shortage of replacement Rotol blades, as mentioned in the quote about Spitfires, also fitted with Jablo blades.


The VVS went to the bother of fitting Klimov engines to the P-40,  so fitting Russian blades to get an operational plane is not impossible if spares are not available.   
I don't know, just that the blades appear very bright for black painted, even in sun.
If the blades are replacements in unpainted metal they would be bright.

I just postulating some ideas from other documented sources and practices.

cheers
T

The Hamilton props are seen on Canadian-built Mk.Is, but not on Mk.IIs.  To my knowledge, all Mk.IIs were built with Rotol props.

The initial DH prop is a Hamilton built under licence. The early Merlins were different depending upon what propellor was used, but by 1940 they were built with compatible splines so that either DH or Rotol could be used.  The Merlin XX in the Mk.II was used on other aircraft with DH props.  However, the spinner would go with the props.  I know of no example where one manufacturer's blades were fitted to another manufacturer's hub and spinner - for one reason the limited setting angles would be different, for another tha actual root fitting would not be compatible.

If the Russians were seriously concerned about the supply of Rotol propellors, then they would have fitted a suitable propellor of their own to the Hurricane, but if such a thing existed then it would have had its own spinner (as did the P-40/Klimov examples).  However, propellors do need to be matched to the engine and the aircraft, it is not a simple matter of a substitution of mechanical parts.

(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/hurricanebuild/whitetailstripandspinnerHIFS91.jpg)

while posting elsewhere, it reminded me the image of the Hurricane with pale prop blades,  there is also this example

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/IA/IA-32/17-1.jpg)

there is another shot of the same plane as well, I'll post when I can find it.

which has very pale blades...
also of note is the retention of the outer 0.303 guns along with the VVS installed weapons