Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: Troy Smith on November 04, 2010, 03:52:04 AM



Title: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Troy Smith on November 04, 2010, 03:52:04 AM
I'm enquiring about the interior colours of these types.

From what I have read, the standard interior color is A-14, 'steel grey'

But there is also evidence for other colours, examples I can think of

La-5 in the USA, awaiting restoration, at the end of this page
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/cockpits/cockpitlagg3.html

LaGG-3
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=815.0

But the La-5F /La-7 switch to A-14?


Recent thread on hyperscale, which had parts of a Pe-2 cockpit seat frame in green from a  wreck in Estonia, mentioning that the Pe-2 in Norway had green insdie when recovered.
and here
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=194.0

mentioning a mix of internal colours.

thread here about Yak-9 walkround, http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=855.0

Pic of Mig-3 wrecks.

I know this is a broad spread, I'm researching  for the kits I have been getting, but perhaps a list or a pinned thread could be compiled from this for ease of reference for all.

best wishes
Troy







Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 04, 2010, 02:00:52 PM
Hello Troy:

It?s a good idea to have a thread regarding this topic.
For I-16,the already mentioned A-14,grey AEh-9 and/or aluminium.
For Lagg-3,aluminium and/or A-14.
This is all I can rememember,greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 04, 2010, 05:11:19 PM
It's my understanding that the IL-2 interior was painted in A-14.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 05, 2010, 08:27:03 AM
I am always embarassed to the question of the internal colors of MiG-3.
I remember that a green seat was identified, the side panels found in Finland were light blue, probably the tube struts were green as the radio boxes, the instrument panel could be black or nearly white (perhaps the background color after removing a thin black plate), but some photos show internal details as dark, and an interviewed technician speaks of an overall black finish called Kuzbass lak, or of overall turquoise or of a skin color.
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 05, 2010, 11:58:57 PM
I am always embarassed to the question of the internal colors ...

Hi Massimo,
an embarrassing question, but it pops-up every 3 months.

From what I have read?
La-5 in the USA, awaiting restoration?
Pe-2 ? wreck in Estonia
?Yak-9 walkround ?Mig-3 wrecks.

Troy you refer to very different sources; info from literature, wrecks, planes preserved in museums

The sources should be graded by their relevance and reliability:
?   Information from original documents (in Russian archives) and period technical literature:  Original documents are generally inaccessible - You have to live in Russia and have a lot of spare time to spend with dusty old paper!  Fortunately some info from original documents is available in secondary sources, i.e. in published texts by Russian authors.  A lot of period technical literature is available as scans on the internet!  
?   Wrecks:  sometimes, in extremely rare cases, paint may survive unaltered half a century in mud.  More often it has been changed, degraded or completely destroyed.  What is found on a wreck is applicable for that individual plane, not necessarily for all planes of that type or all planes made in Soviet Union during GPV!!!  Another problem with wrecks is that what researchers identify on wrecks is only their subjective interpretation.  How can Pilawskii be so confident that the Norwegian Pe-2 wrecks were painted in AII Green and not AMT-4 (both are green and both are nitro paints)?
?   Planes preserved in museums:  Usually the history of museum planes is not clear.  There are always periods when plane may have been repainted.
?   Memoirs, reminiscences: extremely subjective, hard or impossible to prove
?   Black and white photographs:  What plane, when, what paints, etc???

Rating in short:
1.   Information from original documents and period technical literature - Most reliable and relevant
2.   Wrecks - Limited reliability and relevance
3.   Planes preserved in museums - Questionable reliability and relevance
4.   Memoirs, reminiscences ? Highly Questionable
5.   Black and white photographs - Almost useless

If we rely on the Most reliable and relevant info, following would emerge:

A-14  was a designated interior paint, both for metal and wood.

A-14 (steel gray) was used as interior paint for duralumin planes.  It was applied both over ALG-1 or directly on duralumin
ALG-1 (colour not standardized: from yellow to orange-brown or yellow-green) was used as a protective coating/primer for duraluminium, both for exterior and interior surfaces
AE-9 (light gray) was used as interior paint for metal planes, applied over ALG-1 (identified on wrecks only!)
ALG-5 (colour not standardized: shades of gray-green) was used as a primer for mixed construction planes and Il-2 steel armor
AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior.  It was applied directly on wood, without any primers.
AII Al (silver) was used as an interior protective paint for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues.  It was applied over DD113 nitro primer
A-14 or A-14f (steel gray) was used for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues.  It was applied in 2 coats directly on wood, without any primers.
Chlor-vinyl primer DD118 (gray) was used at the end of war for wooden construction planes glued with casein glues. It was applied in 2 coats if painted with brush or in 3 coats if sprayed
Red VIAM-B (Resin lacquer No1) was used as interior paint on some LaGGs (ie wooden planes glued with formaldehyde glues)
A-28m (light blue) was A-14 alternative for field repairs and overhauling.
 
Hope this helps.

KL  


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 06, 2010, 03:12:18 PM
It really helps Konstantin,thanks for sharing all this information.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 06, 2010, 04:50:39 PM
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 07, 2010, 09:07:32 AM
Quote
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason
Hi Jason,
perhaps... but the primer is not necessarily the visible color of inside. It could have had a layer of grey on it.

Hi Konstantin, :)
these informations are a good base, but I fear that there are more exceptions than rules shown on the limited informations available. As on the color photos of Yaks on Arcforum, where legs are painted with different colors  each other, and the inside of doors looks silver.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 07, 2010, 02:44:22 PM
AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior. 
And before 1939,which colour was painted the interior of I-16?
Regards.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 07, 2010, 06:06:52 PM
Quote
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Regards,

Jason
Hi Jason,
perhaps... but the primer is not necessarily the visible color of inside. It could have had a layer of grey on it.

Hi Konstantin, :)
these informations are a good base, but I fear that there are more exceptions than rules shown on the limited informations available. As on the color photos of Yaks on Arcforum, where legs are painted with different colors  each other, and the inside of doors looks silver.

Regards
Massimo
Thank you, Massimo!  I suppose I'll continue to use grey unless I obtain convincing evidence that it was not used on the IL-2.  I have seen a recovered piece of the floor that looks green, but as this example spent over 60 years in water, I hardly consider that convincing evidence.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 08, 2010, 09:00:06 PM
So Konstantin, was A-14 not the interior colour for the IL-2?  ALG-5 was?

Jason, what I posted is what I found in literature so far.  I must stress that I haven?t found anything specifically related to Il-2 interior colours!!!  While manuals for Polikarpov, Lavochkin or Yakovlev planes are available, Il-2 manual is not.  In general, Il-2 is very poorly covered in available technical literature.

In my opinion, it wasn?t A-14 OR ALG-5.
More likely, all of the following were possible at one or the other time:
?   ALG-5 AND A-14
?   ALG-5 only
?   A-14 only
?   Bare metal

Check following link for Il-2 and Il-4 wrecks preserved in Kiev museum:
http://dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416

Try to translate the text; it?s more informative than the photos.   Also try to filter out poster?s interpretation.  Keep in mind that ALG-1 and ALG-5 colours were not standardized, they varied.  IMHO following interior paints could be seen there:
?   Yellow, yellow-green and orange are ALG-1
?   Russian ?aotake? ;) (gray-green) is ALG-5
?   Dark green (photo) could be A-14 over ALG-5

Cheers,  :)
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 08, 2010, 10:01:53 PM
As always, thank you Konstantin for helping to make some sense out of a complex subject!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Troy Smith on November 08, 2010, 11:48:40 PM
HI Konstantin

thank you very much for posting your responses. Thanks to everyone else who replied, but as Konstantin has given such informative answers I am going to ask if he can expand one some points.

specifically -
Quote
While manuals for Polikarpov, Lavochkin or Yakovlev planes are available,

can you summarise the information on interior colours if these are in the manuals? 

Quote
Check following link for Il-2 and Il-4 wrecks preserved in Kiev museum:
Keep in mind that ALG-1 and ALG-5 colours were not standardized, they varied.  IMHO following interior paints could be seen there:
?   Yellow, yellow-green and orange are ALG-1
?   Russian ?aotake? Wink (gray-green) is ALG-5
?   Dark green (photo) could be A-14 over ALG-5

any chance of captioning some of the photos?  I;'m not even sure which bits are Il4 and IL2!  presume
I have linked the pictures which hopefully will make this easier?

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_6354826.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_8853966.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_7484909.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_2692096.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_9182920.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_2434652.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_2199567.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_8644336.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_3481227.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_1159465.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_7303541.jpg)

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_8585498.jpg)

the blue-green paint on the inside is of note, reminds me of the colour I have seen i Russian st war jet cockpits.  Any ideas of this?

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_6634709.jpg)

is this the 'dark green' your refer to as being A-14 over ALG-5?

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_3063357.jpg)

look forward to your comments and captions
T



Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 09, 2010, 07:09:06 AM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the link.
I've tried an automatic translation of the text, but it's poor.

Quote
In which once this theme rises, are caused disputes (now and then to [bana].) and it calms down, in this case the sides as a rule remain with their opinion. In my field of sight burn the fragments of the 3rd aircraft Il-2, biased in different period in Murmansk region, (into Kiev they are brought in 1985). All 3 aircraft of different series, beginning from the one-place machine of the first series to " classical Il-2 the issue of 43 years. So here, the most interesting into them- this painting [vnutryanki]. Unfortunately, paint inside on the armored housings was not preserved, [zasim] let us have a talk about all the remaining, in particular, niche chassis. But that already very much people of " in the rod of [lupit]" .)) The single-seater aircraft (however strangely, the first series chaos of evacuation and the scarcity of materials it should not have affected) is not inside completely painted, and not it was [gruntovan]! In this case, the paint on the external surfaces by places was preserved. No inside even tracks! Virgin dural! (It climbed around all corners and [skladochki], the suppressed parts the unbend- external paint exists, inside [chisto].[Snaruzhi] there was black- green camouflage. Further so-called Il-2[M], straight duralumin wing, wooden tail, rifle point is established " in [dovesok]" , (its aggregates they also bear not the least traces of paint), lamp is early type pointer, hinged part without " [kozyrka]" , straight line. Aircraft bore black- green camouflage, colors were preserved magnificently! Bottom even [blestit]! Aircraft is from within covered with ground of " zinc -[khrom]" , bomb bays along the sides are sewn by plywood, they are pasted by percale, they are painted with rods of high carbon and alloy. Hatchways, the cover of guns, skin flap- from the plywood. All internal surface-zinc- chromium. of different density, by places it is similar to Russian " [aotake]". The fragment of series number was preserved on the landing gear doors. There are no other traces of paint inside. Il-2[M]3. Wooden consoles, tail, the fairings about the rails of late type lamp. Aircraft is assembled entire on the rivets of " [vpotay]" , in contrast to the first two silts. It is painted with average- green paint, 2 layers, (it was repair?) It is the upper -considerably brighter than the original. Thus, the here most interesting! Inside aircraft is also almost not colored, those parts, which are visible are afterward assembling- blown (by places brush coloring) by dark green color. By brush on the seams everything is smeared by orange paint. are so painted fragments Il-2 from the Finnish museum, the same period and close (on a world scale) region. Flaps, landing gear doors are painted in the blue, the color of lower surfaces. Niches themselves and bomb bay-dark- green. Silvery plywood in the bomb bays again mark time! Lie at the museum other fragments P -2 from " by tortoise, dB -3[f], so here are they inside entire zincchromium, pawn outside into the green with the black is blown, dB -3[f] green with the sandy- the brown. But much paint was strewn, the literally counted fish-scales remained on dB, only ground was visible [snachala].[tolko] on the photo it is possible paint to perceive, so that he not to [pokazatel].[Tam] all that want it could be. but pieces it is small, screw and region of fastening tailed counter. Counter and around it was above ground in the blue blown. Il-4 from The [poklonnaya] mountain inside (wings) zincchromium, in Finns also pieces such a zh of color. Here strictly, food for the brains, give to discuss! [Nadeyus], [Vy] you do not stint on about the spent traffic! With the respect, Aleksey.


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 09, 2010, 09:30:05 PM
Hi Massimo, Troy, Jason,
translation first, comments and captions later:

Text by:  Aleksey Shtan aka Shaitan737
http://dishmodels.ru/wshowp.htm?p=416&id=8312

Colour of Interior (and other ..) Surfaces of IL-2, IL-4 and others

Whenever interior colours are discussed there are conflicts and at the end, when discussion quiets down, the sides usually remain with their original opinions...
    
Fragments of three Il-2 Shturmoviks are preserved at the ?GPW Museum? in Kiev, Ukraine.  Planes were shot down at different times in the Murmansk region and were brought to Kiev in 1985. Planes belong to different series, ranging from a single-seater of the first series to the "classical? 1943 Il-2. The most interesting aspect is their interior colour. Unfortunately, the paint on the inside of the armored fuselage (?bronekorpus?) hasn?t been preserved, so we will talk about other parts of the airframe, in particular the landing gear wells. And that is the area where many modelers are making mistakes.
  
Interior of the single-seat Il-2 is unpainted, not even primed!!!  Paint of the exterior surfaces is preserved in some places. But, no traces of paint inside! Virgin duralumin! Everything clean! Exterior was camouflaged in black and green. This is odd because first Il-2 series were not affected by the chaos of the evacuation and shortages of materials.

Next is the so-called IL-2M, straight duralumin wing, wooden tail, rear gunner?s cockpit as an "addition" (its parts also do not bear the slightest traces of paint), gunner?s canopy of the early-type, part that opens is straight without a windshield. The plane was carrying black and green camouflage and colors are preserved beautifully! Undersides are still shiny! Interior is primed with "zinc-chromate?, bomb bay sides are covered with the fabric lined plywood painted in silver. Access covers, gun bay covers and flaps skinning - all made of plywood. All internal surfaces are primed with zinc-chromate of different shades, in places it looks like Russian "aotake?. Serial number is preserved on the landing gear doors. No traces of other paints there.
 
Il-2M3 - Wooden wing consoles and rear fuselage, canopy rail fairings of the late type. All rivets of this aircraft are "flush", unlike the first two Il-2s.  Exterior is painted in two layers of mid-green paint (overhauled?).  Top layer is much lighter than the original paint. So, here is the fun part! Interior of the plane is again almost unpainted.  Those parts which were visible after assembly, were sprayed (sometimes painted with brush) in dark green.  All joints were brushed with orange paint.  Il-2 fragments from the Finnish museum, from the same period and region, were painted the same way. Inside of the flaps and landing gear doors were painted blue, the colour of the lower surfaces. Landing gear wells and bomb bays are dark green. Silver plywood of bomb bays is again at its place!
    
There are also Pe-2 (with "turtle? rear gunner canopy) and DB-3F fragments in the museum.  Interior of both is all zinc-chromate.  Exterior of Pe-2 is sprayed in green and black, DB-3F is sprayed in green and sandy brown. On DB-3, literally a few flakes of paint are preserved.  At first only the primer is visible.  The paint can be seen Only on the photo, but it is not indicative.  There could be anything you want.  Only a few fragments are preserved - the airscrew and part around the tail wheel strut attachment.  The strut and area around it was sprayed with gray-blue over the primer.  Wings interior of the Poklonnaya Gora Il-4 is also zinc-chromate, the Finns also have fragments of the same colour.


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Troy Smith on November 09, 2010, 09:49:01 PM
Konstantin, THANKS!

very informative and interesting.   Look forward to the  captions!
T


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 10, 2010, 01:19:29 AM
Thank you for the translation, Konstantin!  It's nice to have someone on this site who knows both English and Russian.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 10, 2010, 08:28:16 AM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the translation. I'm waiting with interest for your comments and captions.
The surprising thing is that dark grey never appears on these pieces. I wonder if it has disappeared with weathering, or never was on these types.
Is it possible to know about the year of the loss of the DB-3F with sandish brown chips? I suppose, after the mid of 1943.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 10, 2010, 09:30:01 PM
Thanks Konstantin for the translation,it?s great information.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 11, 2010, 10:43:27 PM
The surprising thing is that dark grey never appears on these pieces. I wonder if it has disappeared with weathering, or never was on these types.
Is it possible to know about the year of the loss of the DB-3F with sandish brown chips? I suppose, after the mid of 1943.

Hi Massimo,   :)
Gray A-14 does appear on DB-3 fragments!  
To help you and others to understand what was A-14, following are examples of better preserved ?steel gray? A-14 paint:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/aV2YYBk9-630b9c58d106d4de40d3736c886a44b9.jpg)

SB wreck found ?somewhere in Russia?.  A-14 applied directly on duraluminum


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/66996836.jpg)

Same SB wreck.  A-14 applied over ALG-1 primer


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/2d2701891564.jpg)

Another SB wreck preserved in ?one of the museums in Russia?.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/41a3f28388971d174d48571041f.jpg)

Third SB wreck found ?somewhere in Russia? (I believe in 1998).  Perfectly preserved interior A-14 applied over yellow ALG-1 primer.  Flash makes all colours lighter then they normaly were.


My interpretation of paints that could be seen on Kiev DB-3 fragments:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/DB-3interiorLbl.jpg)

Interior is definitely painted with A-14.  The paint is somewhat degraded (?chalking? and bleaching). Also visible is underplaying yellow ALG-1 primer.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/DB-3exteriorLbl.jpg)

Exterior was also first primed with yellow ALG-1 primer and then painted with light gray AE-9 enamel.  This would be the standard factory finish for DB-3 bombers made in 1939 and first half of 1940.  The wreck could be an old DB-3, not Il-4.

Cheers,
KL  


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on November 11, 2010, 11:29:25 PM
Thanks very much for all this new information, Konstantin! The real colour of A-14 certainly looks lighter than the Akan acrylic version, although the enamel chip you've shown for comparison is a very good match. I can also see why there was some argument on rec.models.scale, years ago, about VVS aircraft cockpits being finished in RLM 02 - the shade does look similar to me. Thanks again!

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 12, 2010, 02:02:50 AM
Very nice pictures and explanations, Konstantin - thank you once again!  That A-14 looks very similar to Testors Model Master Light Ghost Gray, which is what I'm now using on my Il-2 interiors (of course, who knows which Il-2's were even painted in A-14!).  At least I seem to have one VVS colour matched fairly well.  Now if I could just get a good match for AMT-4 I'd be happy.  In case anyone's interested (and even if they're not), I use Model Master Green for AMT-4 (too light and bright, but it's the closest I've come), Model Master Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7, Model Master Black for AMT-6, and Model Master Gunship Gray for AMT-12.  I've also decided to try Model Master Afrika Dunkelgrau for AMT-1, the next time I try to paint a plane with that tricky colour.  These are all enamels, as I've never had any luck with airbrushing acrylics (no, not even with Gunze Sangyo Mr. Airbrush Killer Acrylics).

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2010, 08:46:18 AM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the exhaustive photo file and comments.
About the sandy brown on DB-3, who knows if the author was referring to the piece of the last image?  Could it be an altered primer, or a camouflage color?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on November 12, 2010, 04:20:25 PM

 Now if I could just get a good match for AMT-4 I'd be happy.  In case anyone's interested (and even if they're not), I use Model Master Green for AMT-4.
Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason - have you tried MM 1714 (Forest Green FS34127)? Compared to the Akan AMT-4 acrylic, MM 1714 is a bit more green, but adding a dab of brown or red would bring it closer. For what it's worth, here's the V&O page which proposes some FS equivalents; AMT-4 is given as FS24151 or FS24102:
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxhW8cl0

...and here's the Scalemodels.ru Colours of Soviet Aviation thread, from which that image came:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Among the 9 pages in this thread are some images of VVS wreckage as well.

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 12, 2010, 07:27:19 PM
Thank you John for the links!  I've seen a thread before on scalemodels.ru regarding colours, but I don't think I'd seen that particular one.  That FS24151 is actually pretty close to the Model Master Green, so maybe I'm not as far off as I think I am.  I believe I've already tried Forest Green and found it too dark and not olive enough for my tastes.  It seems that the AMT-4 did have some olive in it, although nothing as much as the (in)famous U.S. Olive Drab.  The AKAN paints may very well be the most accurate paints for VVS subjects, but the problem I have with using them is you have to buy them overseas if you want the enamels (I think my feelings towards acrylics and airbrushes is pretty clear by now), and I'm not sure about the reliability of the supply.  From what I know, AKAN is basically a one-man operation done by Mr. Akhanikin, with the paints being manufactured by a Finnish concern.  I just feel that trying to find a more reliable source, like Model Master paints, is the safer route.  That's why I've tried to find equivalents with Model Masters.  The one equivalent I didn't mention in my previous post is that not only is Light Ghost Gray a pretty good equivalent for A-14 Steel Grey, but I feel it's not bad for AMT-11 (although maybe a bit too light and not blue enough?).  However, until I start building post mid-1943 fighters, that remains a moot point.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 12, 2010, 07:28:15 PM
About the sandy brown on DB-3, who knows if the author was referring to the piece of the last image?  Could it be an altered primer, or a camouflage color?

Hi Massimo,
There are no relicts of upper surface camouflage paints on those photos.
All DB-3 fragments shown on photos are from the area around the tail wheel, i.e. those are the ?lower surfaces?.    Aleksey, the original poster, wrote that the fragments have been in mud for decades and that the original blue paint has changed to gray.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 12, 2010, 07:59:26 PM
The real colour of A-14 certainly looks lighter than the Akan acrylic version, although the enamel chip you've shown for comparison is a very good match. I can also see why there was some argument on rec.models.scale, years ago, about VVS aircraft cockpits being finished in RLM 02 - the shade does look similar to me.

Hi John,

I would describe A-14 as medium gray.  Not ?light gray? nor ?green-gray?.  If A-14 looks greenish on some wrecks, that?s because of the underlying ALG-1, if it?s light gray that?s the effect of aging and chalking.

RLM 02 is the only German colour I read about and that was only because Legion Condor Me-109s were supposedly painted in that colour.  For decades people believed that those planes were light gray.  Some 10 years ago it was discovered that RLM 02 was gray-green and profiles of gray-green SCW Me-109s became quite fashionable.  It is now generally accepted that those planes were light gray and that they were actually painted in some other paint.
In short, nobody knows how green was RLM 02.  So much about the pedantic Germans and their precise standards :D.

Anyway, IMHO RLM 02 would be a very poor choice for the interior paint of Soviet WWII planes.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 12, 2010, 10:38:29 PM
Thank you Konstantin.
He mentioned it into the text, but it doesn't appear in photos.
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 12, 2010, 11:04:03 PM
Thanks Konstantin for the photos and captions.

IMHO RLM 02 would be a very poor choice for the interior paint of Soviet WWII planes.
I agree,RLM 02 is a grey green paint and ALG-1 looks more like a yellowish green.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on November 12, 2010, 11:10:44 PM
My wife keeps telling me I need a new monitor...  :-[

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: bonifaz on November 13, 2010, 02:40:23 AM

RLM 02 is the only German colour I read about and that was only because Legion Condor Me-109s were supposedly painted in that colour.  For decades people believed that those planes were light gray.  Some 10 years ago it was discovered that RLM 02 was gray-green and profiles of gray-green SCW Me-109s became quite fashionable.  It is now generally accepted that those planes were light gray and that they were actually painted in some other paint.
In short, nobody knows how green was RLM 02.  So much about the pedantic Germans and their precise standards :D.

Cheers,
KL

Sorry KL, but it isn`t right! Legion Condor Bf 109 were painted in RLM 63, not in 02! Mr. Merrick knows, how green was RLM 02  ;) You can use google for information about Mr J?rgen Kiroff. ;) And yes, we Germans are pedantic ( not all) ;D And we have precise standards and live for that :-\


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 13, 2010, 02:13:55 PM
A question for Konstantin:

AE-9 (light gray) was used after 1939 as a protective paint for I-16 wooden fuselage interior. 
And before 1939,such as the I-16 in the Spanish Civil War,which colour was painted the interior of these?
Regards.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 15, 2010, 09:47:41 PM
And before 1939,such as the I-16 in the Spanish Civil War,which colour was painted the interior of these?

GRAY !!!

Hi Martin,  :)
According to Maslov and his new I-16 book, the interior was gray before 1939 and after 1939 it was painted in AE-9 applied over the yellow ALG-2 primer.

IMHO, the gray A-14 would be almost certain for 1937 and 1938.  1936 I-16s (those with black cowlings) may have been painted differently.

I haven?t seen any references of light blue interiors in prewar and WWII Soviet planes!

With all the respect for Juan Millan, his evidences for light blue interiors are weak.  Memories of the SCW veterans are important, but they are incomplete ? were those planes and their interiors repainted in Spain?  Who knows what happened to original A-14 when it was baked under the Spanish sun?  Were those Republican pilots or Nationalist pilots (who may have remembered post SCW planes)?
Especially Juan?s ?confirmed by Pilawskii? as an evidence!!!  Pilawskii is 'not so reliable':  IMUP, MUP and ?Wood Aehroluck? are his fantasies!  Nothing that Pilawskii wrote about interior colours is true.


Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2010, 07:24:30 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)
as a moderator, I've made a slight modify about your statements on EP. One can think such things, but write this on a forum is not good.
About light blue, the use of this color is reported by Kari Lumppio (if I don't miss), as utilized on the inner face of the side plates (visible through the cockpit) of the MiG-3 preserved in Finnish museum or in Veesiveehma depot.  I am not fully sure that it is the same color of undersurfaces, but I suppose so.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 16, 2010, 10:05:32 PM
IMHO, the gray A-14 would be almost certain for 1937 and 1938.  

Thanks Konstantin for you answer,it?s very appreciated.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 17, 2010, 01:58:08 AM
Hi Massimo,   :)
I agree with your modification.  Good you made it?

What are we going to do with IMUP, MUP and ?wood aerolack??  Those paints can?t be found in period literature or in Vahlamov?s & Orlov?s research.
IMHO, most of what Pilawskii writes about the interior colours in his book is fiction;  Acording to Pilawskii, a factory or even an individual painter could decide weather to paint interior or not.  Again, such a practice can?t be conformed in available sources.  To me the entire concept is na?ve.

Hope this will also help.  ::)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 17, 2010, 06:23:25 AM
Konstantin, speaking of V&O's work, do you know if anyone is working on an English translation of the articles they did for M-Hobby in 1999?  That might settle a lot of colour questions for us English(only)-speakers.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2010, 10:34:41 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)

about the question of painting interiors, I think that there was some variability, but I don't know if it depends on the factory, the period, field repaintings or what else.
Looking at photos of La-7s on any monograph, one can see that some had their legs painted with the same dark color of the inner face of doors, while other ones were much lighter.
The report that you have posted of the paints found inside shturmoviks and other planes shows a confusing variety too.
The color photo of Yak-3 n.1 posted on Arcforum seem to show silver doors, green wheel disks, light grey or silver right leg, dark grey and black left leg. I don't think that this is the rule for Yak-3s, but thinking that them all were A-14 is clearly unconfirmed.

Quote
speaking of V&O's work, do you know if anyone is working on an English translation of the articles they did for M-Hobby in 1999?  That might settle a lot of colour questions for us English(only)-speakers.
Hi Jason,

Mario was working on, but I fear that it's stopped. The easiest thing looks to improve the automatic translation made on Arcforum. I read it without major difficulties, it is very close to the book of Hornat.

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on November 17, 2010, 03:12:28 PM
Hi Massimo! Do you have a link for the Arcforum page that has the V&O translation URL? I still have the message you sent me (thank you again!) which has the decompressed (non-.rar)files attached to it, so I could forward that to anyone who wants it.

Hi Konstantin - in your reply regarding the I-16 cockpit colour, you mentioned a new book by Mikhail Maslov on the I-16. Can you please provide more information on this? Thank you!

John

Edit:

Hi Jason,

Mario was working on, but I fear that it's stopped. The easiest thing looks to improve the automatic translation made on Arcforum. I read it without major difficulties, it is very close to the book of Hornat.

Regards
Massimo

The book Colors of the Falcons, by Jiri Hornat and Bob Migliardi, is being reprinted:
http://www.iliad-design.com/falconsbook.html

I saw one copy in stock at Aviation World in Toronto yesterday.



Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 17, 2010, 07:28:25 PM
about the question of painting interiors, I think that there was some variability, but I don't know if it depends on the factory, the period, field repaintings or what else.
The report that you have posted of the paints found inside shturmoviks and other planes shows a confusing variety too.

Hi Massimo,  :)
Of course that there was some variability!  We are talking about 10 turbulent years, about different planes, about different construction techniques (wooden planes, metal planes, mixed construction planes), about possible field repairs.
For modelers cockpit interior, wheel wells, bomb bays, inside of the flaps are all just ?plane cavities?.  In reality those are very different parts of the plane ? why would plane producer ( ;D Zavod, pl Zavoda ;D) paint them all in same colour?

Statements like ?Russians painted plane interiors in RLM-02? or ?all plane cavities were light blue? are uninformed.

Why ?confusing variety??  The list of major interior paints is complete (maybe few additions for details, like cast iron paint), we know how those paints look like and we are starting to understand where each paint was used.
 
The color photo of Yak-3 n.1 posted on Arcforum seem to show silver doors, green wheel disks, light grey or silver right leg, dark grey and black left leg. I don't think that this is the rule for Yak-3s, but thinking that them all were A-14 is clearly unconfirmed.

Yak-3 legs are not painted in different colours.  It?s all about lighting: one leg is better lit and the other is in shade; one leg is overexposed and the other is underexposed.   

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/NormandieYak-3colourfrontwiev-lbl.jpg)

1944-45 Soviet war industry worked like a well oiled machine.  I would expect that all Yak-3s left factories quite uniformly painted and camouflaged.

Hi Konstantin - in your reply regarding the I-16 cockpit colour, you mentioned a new book by Mikhail Maslov on the I-16. Can you please provide more information on this? Thank you!

The last, 2008, Maslov?s I-16 book:

http://modelfan.ru/5365-istrebitel-i-16-norovistyj-ishak-stalinskix-sokolov-maslov-ma.html


Cheers,
KL



Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2010, 10:09:38 PM
Quote
Yak-3 legs are not painted in different colours.  It?s all about lighting: one leg is better lit and the other is in shade; one leg is overexposed and the other is underexposed.  

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f170/KosachevSergey/-3-10.jpg)
Hi Konstantin, :)
as you can see on the photo, the leg projects its shadow on the ground; so it is not on shadow, but in full sunlight.
The reflection on the wing is because it is gloss, it's a different matter.

Here is another one:
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/5927/risso.jpg)

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f170/KosachevSergey/-3-1.jpg)

This shows clearly that the small door was silver inside, else it should be darker than the light blue face under the same (or less) light.


regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 18, 2010, 10:09:19 PM
Option No. 2:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/NormandieYak-3colourfrontwiev-Option2.jpg)

Francois Bukhanoff had had it enouhg for the day!  It was too hot for painting on that summer day in July 1945.


Even if two landing gear legs are different on the photo, that can't be used as a proof that Soviets painted planes with anything that they had handy.  Photographic evidence has very limited value.  Photo of that same Yak-3 would look different if taken half an hour later in different lighting conditions (or next morning when Francois finished painting).

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 18, 2010, 10:31:46 PM
In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure,ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on November 18, 2010, 11:55:34 PM
In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure,ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.

Martin

Hi Martin! But isn't that a defect in the photo itself, or this print of the photo? Everything looks unnaturally dark, including the grass itself.

(Hmmm - Francois Bukhanoff, eh? Obviously a cousin of Nadiya Ivanova at Zavod 292... ;) )

Salut!
John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 19, 2010, 03:32:36 PM
Hi Konstantin, :)
Quote
Francois Bukhanoff had had it enouhg for the day!  It was too hot for painting on that summer day in July 1945.
Funny! But why are you so sure that he repainted a leg only? Maybe he has repainted only that very dark and gloss blue...

Quote
In my humble opinion,it?s not a matter of light or exposure, ALL the right side of the photo is darker than the left.greetings.
Hi Martin, :)
I agree that all the photo is somewhat darker on the right, but not so darker. The different contrast between legs and tyres is obvious.

Quote
(Hmmm - Francois Bukhanoff, eh? Obviously a cousin of Nadiya Ivanova at Zavod 292...  )
Hi John,  :)
there is a way to say: a rule is confirmed by exceptions. Well, I think that now we have found exceptions enough to confirm a rule.

Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on November 19, 2010, 11:08:07 PM
But isn't that a defect in the photo itself, or this print of the photo? Everything looks unnaturally dark, including the grass itself.
Hello John,this is just what I mean.

Hi Massimo,sorry,but I?m still thinking that the different shades between both legs and tires is due to the darker zone on the right.Even the light reflection on the left wing leading edge can be seen as a lighter line,toned down by the defect (or whatever it is) on that side of the photo.

Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 20, 2010, 01:07:06 PM
Quote
Hi Massimo,sorry,but I?m still thinking that the different shades between both legs and tires is due to the darker zone on the right.Even the light reflection on the left wing leading edge can be seen as a lighter line,toned down by the defect (or whatever it is) on that side of the photo
.


Hi Martin, :)
the difference between nearly white and nearly black legs is visible on the larger photo too; the knee of the closer leg is well visible in front of the door, and can be compared to the other knee.

regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: nsmekanik on November 22, 2010, 04:39:59 PM
 
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f170/KosachevSergey/-3-10.jpg)

It appears to me that the left side of photo is in direct sunlight, and the right side is in the shadow of a cloud. Looking at the landing gear strut arm(forget what it's called) as it goes into the shadow of the gearbay on the left, and comparing it to the most exposed part of gear leg on the right, I would say the left gear is a lighter color then the right, BUT, there is one of those optical illusion thingys that shows how a shade of grey can appear darker or lighter then itself depending if it is surrounded by lighter or darker shades of grey(if that makes any sense)


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: nsmekanik on November 22, 2010, 04:44:50 PM
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to what the interior color of the AR-2 might have been? ;D


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on November 23, 2010, 09:22:54 AM
IMHO, Ar-2 interior colour was the same as SB interior colour - "steel" gray A-14.
You will find some examples of SB interior colour on Page 2 of this tread.

KL 


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: nsmekanik on November 23, 2010, 06:55:23 PM
IMHO, Ar-2 interior colour was the same as SB interior colour - "steel" gray A-14.
You will find some examples of SB interior colour on Page 2 of this tread.

KL 

Thanks much ;D, however my mistake, I was wanting to write Er-2 not AR-2, but some how I got my wires crossed >:(


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 01, 2010, 11:05:08 PM
Still source No 1 - list of interior colours  by Vahlamov and Orlov, published in M-Hobby magazine 1999-4:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorpaints-M-Hobby4-1999.jpg)


my translation of the part relevant to this thread:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorcolours1999-4M-HobbyPt1.jpg)


Hope this will help to understand variety of colours.  Different paints for different materials, and different paints in different times.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 02, 2010, 08:28:23 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)
thank you for this translation. It's very useful.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 02, 2010, 10:32:11 PM
Back to Il-2 wrecks preserved in the ?GPV Museum? in Kiev   :)

Early single-seater:

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_9182920.jpg)

According to A. Shtan, this is an all metal Shturmovik:  metal rear fuselage is not preserved but peaces of duraluminium are still attached to the rear part of the armored ?bronekorpus?.
There is no paint preserved on the bronekorpus, neither on its exterior nor on its interior (this is common; bronekorpus normally turns into a rusty piece of junk metal).   Some remnants of black-green camouflage are preserved on the wing-fuselage fairing. Wing interior structure is unprotected and unpainted

Judging by its colours only, this Il-2 was made in late summer/autumn 1941 ? time of relocation of aviation industry.

Cheers,
KL  8)


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 03, 2010, 01:10:16 AM
Good description, Konstantin!  If this is indeed a metal-fuselage Shturmovik, it's the only wreck I've ever seen of one.  So the model companies are correct - every single-seater must have had a metal-fuselage!  [Sarcasm intended.]

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 07, 2010, 12:34:15 AM
Il-2 wrecks No 2 from the ?GPW Museum? - Kiev   

Early two-seater:
According to A. Shtan:
?   Straight Metal wings
?   Wooden rear fuselage
?   Rear gunner?s cockpit looks like a ?last minute modification?.  Could have been a factory modification.  Rear machine gun is standard UBT.
?   Wing?s interior primed with yellow-green ?zinc-chromate? of different densities.
?   Rear gunner?s cockpit unpainted


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Il-2early2-seatcamoufl.jpg)

Wing trailing edge minus ailerons.  Upper surfaces were camouflaged in standard 1941-1943 Black-Green scheme.  This part of the wing wasn?t primed: camouflage colours are sprayed directly on duraluminium.  This detail makes A-24m and A-26m oil paints somewhat more likely then AMT nitro paints.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/w00416_3481227.jpg)

Wing leading edge


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/w00416_7303541.jpg)

Faded underside blue colour and red star turned orange.  Yellow-green zinc-chromate primer visible under blue paint.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/w00416_8644336.jpg)

Interior side of the wheel-well door.  Factory number is truncated but may indicate Zavod 1 (A. Ruchkovski?s comment).  Since factory number isn?t over painted, A. Shtan concludes that all the interior zinc-chromate is factory painted.


What is this yellow-green colour?  ALG-1 or ALG-5 or something else?

The 'native' tone of zinc chromate crystalline salt is a bright greenish-yellow. When put into a vehicle with binders to make paint, this color would be the raw result.
Such raw Zinc Chromate primer would also give a semi-translucent coating, not very opaque like a pigmented paint or lacquer. This property becomes especially interesting when we consider that aircraft factory instructions often called for just one protective coat of primer. As a consequence, the color of the underlying surface might have a significant effect on the final appearance. For example, raw Zinc Chromate applied on the white background would look yellow, while applied to bare metal aluminum it would look more like apple green.
In US aircraft use in the 1930s to 1940s, the Zinc Chromate primer was frequently used in the raw mixture yellow tone. This is sometimes referred to as Zinc Chromate Yellow.
In the immediate pre-war and early war period, the raw yellow Zinc Chromate primer seems to have been dominating.
From:  http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm



My guess would be that this is still ALG-1.  It is greener then yellow DB-3 ALG-1, it could be ALG-1 + 6% aluminum powder mentioned in Vahlamov?s & Orlov?s table.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Il-2early2-seatunderside.jpg)


Cheers,
KL 

 


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Troy Smith on December 07, 2010, 12:45:00 AM
HI Konstantin

THANKS for all the great information you have put in your posts, it has been of great use to me, and I'm sure other members of the forum.
It's great to have these wreck pictures well analysed.

one I did ask about before is this, with the blue-green internal colour (?), reminds a little of the colour i have seen in post war Soviet cockpits.   Any comments on this one?  What part of which aircraft is this?

(http://dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/00/00416/w00416_8585498.jpg)


cheers
T


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2010, 06:25:21 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)
thank you for the interesting comments to photos.
Some questions:

Quote
Wing trailing edge minus ailerons.  Upper surfaces were camouflaged in standard 1941-1943 Black-Green scheme.  This part of the wing wasn?t primed: camouflage colours are sprayed directly on duraluminium.  This
detail makes A-24m and A-26m oil paints somewhat more likely then AMT nitro paints.

The other images of the undersurface and internal surfaces seem to show a yellowish background. Is it the wing from the same plane?

Quote
Interior side of the wheel-well door.  Factory number is truncated but may indicate Zavod 1 (A. Ruchkovski?s comment).  Since factory number isn?t over painted, A. Shtan concludes that all the interior zinc-chromate is factory painted.

The different struts of the landing gear doors appear to be in different colors. Couldn't this be the effect of an anodic treatment made before assembilng the door, on the separate components, instead that ALG-1?
Maybe the treatment was made only on one side of the plate before cutting and riveting, so the inner of wing appears yellowish, and the outside appears simply painted with oil paints.


Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 07, 2010, 08:44:39 AM
Some questions:
The other images of the undersurface and internal surfaces seem to show a yellowish background. Is it the wing from the same plane?

Yes, it's the same plane.  Two Il-2 wrecks are piled up there, the "early two-seater" is easily recognizable by black-green exterior and "apple grean" interior.

Jason might be able to say when was this plane made?  Straight metal wings + wooden rear fuselage + "last minute" rear gunner cockpit.

The different struts of the landing gear doors appear to be in different colors. Couldn't this be the effect of an anodic treatment made before assembilng the door, on the separate components, instead that ALG-1?
Maybe the treatment was made only on one side of the plate before cutting and riveting, so the inner of wing appears yellowish, and the outside appears simply painted with oil paints.

For what I know, anodized duraluminium is dull gray.

Regardx,
KL



Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 07, 2010, 12:46:31 PM
Hi Konstantin,
Quote
For what I know, anodized duraluminium is dull gray.

Perhaps not. In this table, it is described as yellowish-greenish

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/Interiorcolours1999-4M-HobbyPt1.jpg)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 07, 2010, 05:50:07 PM

Jason might be able to say when was this plane made?  Straight metal wings + wooden rear fuselage + "last minute" rear gunner cockpit.

Regardx,
KL



Probably late 1942, although I'm puzzled about the "last minute" rear gunner cockpit comment.  I presume that this doesn't refer to the field mods as these of course weren't done at the factory, and simply consisted of a hole cut just aft of the pilot's cockpit.  Maybe Mr. Shtan is referring to a single-seater that was modified on the line to be a production two-seater?  In that case it would have been one of the earliest two-seaters and would almost certainly be from late 1942.


Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 07, 2010, 06:36:50 PM
Hi Massimo and Jason,  :)

Quote
For what I know, anodized duraluminium is dull gray.
Perhaps not. In this table, it is described as yellowish-greenish

True, anodized aluminium surface is dyed and sealed.  Dye could be any colour - pots and construction aluminium are usually gray, but other colours are possible.

(http://donal.ru/d/52334/d/image_3.jpg)
(http://donal.ru/d/52334/d/1550027_6.jpg)

But, in this particular case ("late 1942" Il-2), we can see paint coating - we can see how it's peeling, or how it's fading.  Anodized layer is different, it's tickness is measured in micrometers.
 
Maybe Mr. Shtan is referring to a single-seater that was modified on the line to be a production two-seater?  In that case it would have been one of the earliest two-seaters and would almost certainly be from late 1942.


that's exactly how Mr. Shtan describes the wreck:  a single-seater modified while on the production line (in factory) into a two-seater.

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 07, 2010, 10:45:17 PM
Kiev Il-2 wreck No 3:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/webshots-1.jpg)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/webshots-2.jpg)

1943/44 Il-2 is the wreck laying on its belly in the centre of both photos.  Outer wing panels belong to the ?late 1942? Il-2 wreck!


This is a standard 1943/44 two-seater with wooden wings and wooden rear fuselage. 

From Mr. Shtan?s description and what is visible on photos following would be the factory painting procedure:

?   Unpainted armored ?bronecorpus? and wing ?centroplan? were first assembled
?   Assembled plane was primed in ?DARK GREEN?
?   Bomb bays and landing gear wells were painted in steel gray A-14
?   Exterior was camouflaged in standard 3-colour scheme (AMT-1/AMT-4/AMT-12)

Later, the plane was repaired in the field:
?   interior sheet metal joints were brushed in ?ORANGE?
?   Back of the wing toward the landing flaps was sprayed in A-28m (field replacement for A-14)


?Albom nakrasok? helps to identify ?Dark Green? and ?Orange?

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/1948-scan-alg.jpg)
ALG-1 is top, ALG-5 bottom; the red primer between is described as gliftalevaya No.138 (Thanks to E. Pilawskii)

?Dark Green? is ALG-5 and ?Orange? is ALG-1.

Orange colour of ALG-1 isn?t a big surprise.  According to http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm
? any pigment might be added to the raw paint mixture to go with the Zinc Chromate, thereby modifying the color. Some of today's mixtures use iron oxide -- giving that rusty red appearance you can often see on prefabricated steel beams in highway and building construction.

The colours of this wreck could be interpreted as follows:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/wheelwell.jpg)
Wheel well ? primed in ALG-5, then painted in A-14.  Orange-brown ALG-1 brushed along corners in the field.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/bombbays.jpg)
Wing bomb bays ? same as wheel wells. Interesting are preserved plywood sides painted in silver AII Aluminum nitro paint.


(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/wingtrailingedge.jpg)
Back of the wing toward the landing flaps ? visible are olive green AMT-4, possibly dark gray AMT-12 and field applied A-28m.

Hope this will help,
KL



   


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on December 08, 2010, 12:56:43 AM
Very interesting - thank you, Konstantin! Could the lack of standard finishes be due to the desperate attempt by the managers of Zavod 18 to build Shturmoviks quickly enough to avoid execution, per Stalin's "bread and air" telegram? The quickest reference I could pull up through Google provided this video of Il-2 tactics; the text below comes from the description of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu4H6v_rdTk&feature=related

"In the late autumn 1941года Stalin has sent the well-known telegramme in the city of Kuibyshev. In this telegramme Stalin wrote "Attack planes are necessary as bread, as air. Do not exasperate the government. I warn last time" to the Factory manager №18 threatened execution. Workers of a factory promised to the leader to let out in the end of December 3 planes in day, since January, 5th 4 planes, since January, 19th six, since January, 27th on seven planes daily.
The factory had no habitation for workers, a heat supply, compressed air, oxygen. In the street there were awful frosts. But workers have carried out of the fantastic obligation. They have increased release of attack planes in 7 times for one month."

Somewhat off-topic, but interesting, I hope! There are also numerous other VVS aircraft videos posted on YouTube.

Regarding the practice of tinting zinc chromate primers, this was sometimes done in cases where a second coat was specified, so that there could be a visual check, because of the different colour, to make certain that the second coat provided complete coverage.

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 08, 2010, 01:12:03 AM
Thank you again for the pictures and explanations, Konstantin!  Keep them coming.  John, interesting video I hadn't seen before - I'll have to look at some of the others on that page.  Thank you for the link!

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 08, 2010, 01:50:21 AM
Could the lack of standard finishes be due to the desperate attempt by the managers of Zavod 18 to build Shturmoviks quickly enough to avoid execution, per Stalin's "bread and air" telegram?

Relocation of the industry and Stalin's treats may explain why "1941 single-seater's" interior is unfinished.  Other two Shturmoviks are both within the standards - "late 1942 two-seater" is primed/protected in pre-war fashion, while "1943/44 two-seater" makes use of ALG-5 mix.

Regarding the practice of tinting zinc chromate primers, this was sometimes done in cases where a second coat was specified, so that there could be a visual check, because of the different colour, to make certain that the second coat provided complete coverage.

In western countries, zinc chromate was comonly tinted with black pigment, so that the resulting paint was green (interior green).  In Soviet Union, green zinc-chromate was probably in use for short time before the war. During the war it was either ALG-1 + Aluminum powder (apple green) or ALG-1 tinted with Fe oxides.  Yellow zinc chromate was in use after the war again.
Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on December 08, 2010, 08:40:47 AM
Hi Konstantin, :)
very interesting work, thank you very much for posting this.

In some images, as the flap on the lower right corner of the first photo, we can see structures where the greenish color is preserved on the back plate, but is lost on the smaller struts. Who knows why? Just as on the landing gear door, and on the third photo, of the wheel well.
Here are traces of A-14; is there some sign that all the green was repainted grey? Or that the flaps inside was light blue?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on December 08, 2010, 02:14:04 PM
Thanks Konstantin for these very interesting pictures.The orange ALG-1 came as a total surprise to me,so,to make it clear,the colour of ALG-1 without mixing with pigments,was it yellow?.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 08, 2010, 09:29:29 PM
...to make it clear,the colour of ALG-1 without mixing with pigments,was it yellow?

Yes, colour of pure zinc chromate is yellow.  Zinc chromate was used as yellow pigment.

From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_chromate
Its use as a corrosion resistant agent was applied to aluminium alloy parts first in commercial aircraft, and then in military ones. During the 1940 and 1950s it was typically found as the "paint" in the wheel wells of retractable landing gear on U.S. military aircraft, not because of its glaring yellow-green color symbolizing anything, but to protect the aluminium from corrosion.

When used as a pigment, it is known as Zinc Yellow or Yellow 36. It is highly toxic and rarely used in art anymore.


Molekular formula   ZnCr O4
Appearance   yellow-green crystals

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/B25-mitchell-assembly.jpg/781px-B25-mitchell-assembly.jpg)


From wisegeek:  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-zinc-chromate.htm

While the chemical composition of zinc chromate is important, there are no standards for color. The natural color of the compound is greenish-yellow, but a variety of pigments are added during the manufacturing process to give it the color required by customers. One of the most common colors is rusty red, used on automobiles. The aerospace industry commonly uses yellows and greens.
Since zinc chromate is sensitive to light, it is mixed with black pigment to provide some UV resistance. The result is a green color. During the 1930s and 1940s, the primer was colored to indicate a second coat. Untinted or yellow primer indicated a single coat, while a tinted primer would be one of the other colors.


Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on December 08, 2010, 11:44:54 PM
Yes, colour of pure zinc chromate is yellow.  Zinc chromate was used as yellow pigment.
Thanks Konstantin for your excellent answer.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 09, 2010, 08:00:24 PM
Hi, :)

has anybody noticed this photo?

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/VVS%20colours/webshots-1.jpg)

It's not taken from Mr. Shtan's post at dishmodels.com!  
Does it look familiar?  Can you remember on what website did this photo appear before?  ???

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: nsmekanik on December 13, 2010, 08:52:57 AM
Sorry I can't help you with that, but thanks for for everything so far Konstantin  ;D , although I now find out that my cockpit is all wrong  :'(
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/nsmekanik/models/IMG_5157.jpg)

eventually I'll get this one finished......


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 13, 2010, 05:40:56 PM
Nice work so far!  I wouldn't worry too much about the cockpit - even if you could change it, someone would come up with evidence that this particular Il-2 had a different-coloured cockpit to whatever you changed it to.  I just paint them in a medium grey (Model Master Light Ghost Gray), to represent A-14 Steel Grey, since that seems to have been a widely used primer.  I know it's not correct for every Il-2, but since I can't go back in time and check the real Shturmovik examples of the models I build, it'll have to do.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: marluc on December 13, 2010, 10:21:58 PM
Good work in the cockpit interior nsmekanik,it would be great to see a WIP in the "General Modeling" section.Greetings.

Martin


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on December 13, 2010, 11:23:03 PM
Sorry I can't help you with that, but thanks for for everything so far Konstantin  ;D , although I now find out that my cockpit is all wrong  :'(
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/nsmekanik/models/IMG_5157.jpg)

nsmekanik,  :)
I agree with you, that cockpit looks completely and totally wrong.  Light green-blue is one of the colours made up by Pilawskii (IMUP, MUP or PUP).  It's as likely to be found in Il-2 as the pink colour.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cockpit - even if you could change it, someone would come up with evidence that this particular Il-2 had a different-coloured cockpit to whatever you changed it to.

Hi Jason,  :)
could you list those different colours used for Il-2 cockpits that people have evidences for.

I just paint them in a medium grey (Model Master Light Ghost Gray), to represent A-14 Steel Grey, since that seems to have been a widely used primer.

A-14 was a finishing oil paint, not a primer!  ...Another Pilawskii's influence...

"any colour was possible" is an outdated (Pilawskii's ::))concept.  There were standards, etc.

Speaking of Il-2 cockpit colours, I would start with the table I posted before; next I would eliminate everything before 1941 and after 1945. I would eliminate paints for wood and focus on paints for steel.
Basically everything except ALG-5 and A-14 would be eliminated - I can't see any reasons to use other colours then gray and dark gray-green.

Cheers,
KL  


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 14, 2010, 01:43:40 AM
Konstantin, I will remember that A-14 was a finishing colour, not a primer!  As far as people not having evidence for Il-2 interior colours other than ALG-5 and A-14, I hope you're right, as all my Shturmoviks are now painted in grey as far as the interior is concerned.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on December 26, 2010, 05:03:01 PM
Another image of the Il-2 cockpit area; aircraft may be under restoration:

(http://s2.postimage.org/z2xirbxg/f10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/z2xirbxg/)

Here's the thread from Scalemodels.ru:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7288_start_240.html


John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on December 26, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
Another image of the Il-2 cockpit area; aircraft may be under restoration:

(http://s2.postimage.org/z2xirbxg/f10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/z2xirbxg/)

Here's the thread from Scalemodels.ru:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7288_start_240.html


John


Nice thread, John!  I hadn't seen that one at scalemodels.ru.  Looks like my library of Il-2 pictures is going to be getting larger still!  The picture you're posting here is of the Il-2 arrow at the Prague-Kbely museum, and it has indeed been restored.  This is pre-restoration.  Although physically and structurally they did a beautiful job on the restoration, they unfortunately repainted it incorrectly.  The used a three-colour scheme for the topsides, which is correct, but they painted what should be tan, in that fictitious reddish-brown colour, ?AII Brown?, and the grey should be a bit darker, in my opinion.  They also repainted the interior in what appears to be ?IMUP? ? Industrial Metal Use Primer, another apparently fictitious colour.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on April 26, 2011, 05:54:34 PM
What would be the correct cockpit colour for an early La-5? I've read that early LaGG-3's were finished in aluminum paint; the same would be possible for the La-5. This walkaround seems to show a very light, shiny colour which looks to me like aluminum, not A-14:
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/501-600/walk544_La-5_Abbott/walk544.htm

I would love to find this thing and have a closer look at it, but Virginia is a very long drive away, and I'm not sure it's even there any more - I think someone was trying to sell it a few months ago! Note from the windscreen shape that this is a later (series 9 and up) La-5, not one of the very early ones. So, is it aluminum or A-14? Thank you for any advice on this question!

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: KL on April 26, 2011, 07:09:58 PM
John,  :)
colours of that "specimen" are highly questionable.  Exterior green colour definitely isn't original. Engine bearers were not painted same as the wooden fuselage.  Most likely the wreck was repainted while in the museum/private collection, or maybe before sold.
IMHO, the interior was overpainted with something that resembles the original interior colour.  From photos it could be any of the three options:  silver (AII Al), light gray (AE-9) or dark gray (A-14)....

Cheers,
KL 


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on April 26, 2011, 07:53:31 PM
Well, thanks, KL - now I've got three options...  :D But am I right about the use of AII Al in the cockpits of early LaGG-3's? Thank you!

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on April 26, 2011, 10:58:25 PM
Hi John,
only on wooden parts. The metal parts were of some other color.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: John Thompson on April 27, 2011, 12:19:37 AM
Hi John,
only on wooden parts. The metal parts were of some other color.
Regards
Massimo

Thanks, Massimo!

John


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 16, 2014, 11:38:50 AM
Hi all,
here is an interesting image of the instrument panel of a DB-3A that can make some light on the light color utilized:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9118/62938661.3/0_d598d_c8919197_XL.jpg)
It looks AE-9.
From
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_3652_start_400.html (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_3652_start_400.html)

Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: learstang on November 16, 2014, 05:37:12 PM
That's interesting to see, Massimo. I've been using a light grey on my Il-2 instrument panels.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: Interior colours for Yak's, Lavochkin, Pe-2, Il-2, Mig 3, I-16 ?
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on November 17, 2014, 06:18:06 AM
Hi Jason,
well, light grey was the most likely interpretation, it was also found on the restored I-153, but I am glad to have found this confirmation.
Regards
Massimo