Sovietwarplanes

Hi all,
I'm working to make pages on painting of Soviet planes, developing the table of colors, splitting it into different periods and adding photos, schemes and many of the documents that have emerged from the discussions on the forums.
The first two pages will be on planes of the '30s. I'm not an expert on this field, and need some help.
One: where can I find a good photos of a Po-2 taken before 1937, and one taken between 1937 and 1940?
Second: observing photos of fighters of early '30s, it's clear that at least two different finishes did exist. The first one, typical of I-3 and early I-5s, is very dark gloss (green?) fuselage wooden/fabric parts (including undersurface), bare metal nose panels, and an unidentified gloss color for wing and tail undersurfaces (gloss silver?). The second one could be overall uppersurfaces greenish khaki, and blue-grey undersurfaces.
Now, two types of green are mentioned by Akanihin for this period: the darkest, 3B, and the greenish khaki.
Is there any information to know if it's possible that the early black green was 3B? When did the use of 3B start? Was it gloss when new?
Regards
Massimo

Hi all,
a provisional version of the page is linked here, but not yet from the main page.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/before1937/before1937.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/before1937/before1937.html)

Besides, a provisional version of the page on painting in 1937/1940 period is here:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/1937-1940.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/1937-1940.html)

Please, have a look to those pages, and let me know any criticism and suggestion before they will be openly online.
Now I'm continuing to work on the 1940-41 pages.
Best regards
Massimo

Massimo, I believe the R-1 was based on the Airco DH-4, not the Be-2.

Regards,

Jason

Thank you Jason.
Massimo

You're welcome, Massimo.  It's nice to see you working on these pages as I for one don't know that much about pre-GPW VVS colours and schemes, especially pre-1940.

Regards,

Jason

Well Massimo, I need to check things out before I tell people to change something.  I should have noticed that the pilot was situated just in front of the gunner; it appears that most of the R-1's were based on the Airco DH.9A, not the DH.4 (although they did build a few copied from the DH.4 and the DH.9).  Sorry for the confusion, but the 1920's Red Air Force (or whatever it was called then) is not exactly my area of expertise.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Massimo,
According to the Russian authors there was only one camouflage scheme for military planes made (in series) between mid-twenties to mid-thirties:
?Protective Colour? on upper surfaces and light blue on undersides.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Aviation%20in%201930%20art/Izuchayutmotor-Maltsev1933.jpg)

Most of the planes on your new page are painted according to this scheme.  Different shades of green or gray/silver undersides are guesswork ? better avoid it!!!

The reason why engine cowlings were sometimes left unpainted is very simple.  Oil paints used to paint metal parts were sensitive to gasoline and engine oil ? those would dissolve/ruin paint if left longer on painted surface.  Polished aluminum was an alternative for those parts.

Prototypes, air show planes and personal planes were special cases ? not representative.

Comment No 1.
I would not use "KHAKI" for early ?Protective Colour?.  Khaki has somewhat different meaning in English.  Just google images for ?khaki color? and you will get an idea:  it?s light brown, sand colour:

http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&biw=797&bih=432&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=khaki+color&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=

Word ?khaki? isn?t used in Russian literature, especially period literature and not for ?Protective Colour?

2.
Kotelnikov describes early ?Protective Colour? as green with yellow hue.  If described that way it could be confused with later olive green 4BO and we know that the early ?Protective Colour? was darker.  I would suggest ?Dark green with yellow hue? for that early ?Protective?

3.
Lower R-5 photo is actually SSS

4.
I would not include 3B among VVS paints.  3B was an Army version of ?Protective Colour?.  It may have been used on metal airplanes sporadically, but no solid proofs for that.

5.
AI N clear dope is not a primer.  It is transparent nitro-cellulose varnish applied to stretch fabric and increase its strength.

6.
TB-3 fragment is from private collection in Finland, not from Monino.  Colour interpretation by A. Akanihin.

7.
Helmet is SSh-36, again from private collection.  Found in a theater in St. Petersburg beautifully preserved and in its original colours (from internet).

Hope this will help,
KL

Hi Jason and Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions.
I'll update the page soon.
About the existence of two painting schemes, we'll have to make some further research on photos, but from those that I have already seen I'm convinced that there was an early scheme, at least on Polikarpovs. If their earlier paint doesn't adhere to metal, and their later paint adheres, this could mean that a new paint was introduced.
I've read the notes on Red Star n.3 of Geust, and suppose that the equivalent Russian booklet iof Aviakollectia wites the same things, but I suspect that there is still more to be discovered.
Who knows if anything preserved in Monino could make some light on this? Could you ask the Russian forum, please?
Regards
Massimo

1937-1940 Period:
Most important changes:  Silver and light gray became widespread and light blue completely disappeared

Comment 1.
1937-40 colours were determined by several directives (check V&O 1996), not so much by appearance of new paints.  Beginning of use of those new paints varied:  AE-9 was in use before 1937, AE-8 was used from late 1938, AII Z from early 1938.

2.
second photo: Last 3 I-16 in a line are Type 17.  Photo taken in 1939.

3.
I-16 undersurfaces were painted in AII Gray and AE-9.  This is confirmed (recently available I-16 manual)!

4.
Photos 4 & 5:  Late Type 5 (sec half of 1937), not Type 10.

5.
I-15bis were made in 1938-1939, not in 1937.  Upper surfaces AII Z, lower AII Al.  lower metal surfaces AE-9 (since silver AE-8 appeared in late 1938).

6.
Only relatively small number of SB bombers made in late 1938 and early 1939 were painted in silver AE-8.  All the rest were gray AE-9.  Discussion at:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=220
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=240
7.
Please remove AII Light Blue from 1937-1940 table.  It didn?t exist!!!  It appeared in mid 1940.

Cheers,
KL

So,for I-16?s,AII Gray and AE-9 before mid 1940 and AII Light Blue after mid 1940?
Thanks in advance,greetings.

Martin

Lots of excellent information here - thanks, Massimo and Konstantin!

John

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions.
About SB, I've done a small statistics on the photos of Barbarossa victims, dividing them for version and painting scheme.
SB2M-100: no photos.
SB2M-100A: 2 silver, 2 grey, 2 green
SB2M-103 early (with flat cowling): 1 silver, 2 grey, 1 green;
SB2M-103 late (with pointed cowling): 0 silver, 13 grey, 6 green.
So it seems that silver is as likely as grey for eaerlier tupes, while has disappeared for the later type.
AII grey for I-16... this is new. However, some Finnish sources write about I-16 with silver undersurfaces, so I think that this is possible too.
What about manuals of I-153? Is it known if overall grey planes did exist? I won't exclude this.

Hi John, thank you for your encouragement.
This statistic could be continued on other sources, maybe on that Russian site of photos of wrecks... what was its address?

Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo; is this the one you mean?:
http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php

John

Thank you John
Massimo

hi Massimo,  :)
your statistics are interesting, but they would make sense if there was no more reliable information.  But, there is more reliable/relevant info:  have you checked two links from my previous post?


We are talking about 1937-1940 period and photos you are analyzing are made in 1941-42.  Gray planes made in 1937 may have been overhauled and repainted in early 1939 in silver.  All pre 1940 planes that you count as green are repainted!

I think you already have enough information to create the best guide for pre-1937 and 1937-1940 VVS colours.  :D
Just try to avoid guesswork and photo interpretation

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,

thank you for the link and the informations.



However, these planes are not so few: the planes built in about a year are a good part of some versions. However, one can see from the photos of the individual plane he is interested to.
Regards
Massimo :)

Hi,
I've made some corrections to the previous pages and I've added one on experimental camouflages of 1940.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/experimental1940/experimental1940.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/experimental1940/experimental1940.html)
It would be good to translate the captions of the images.
Regards
Massimo :)

Nice new page, Massimo!  So is it that 3ng matte brown that's to blame for all those horrible profiles (and model instructions) of the IL-2 in dark brown/green topsides?  It's interesting how misinformation and misinterpretation can take on a life of its own and then be almost impossible to kill.  Konstantin would probably translate the captions if you asked (sorry for offering your services, Konstantin!).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Massimo,  :)

SB colours development / chronology that you included in the new page is not definitive.  There are some facts, but there are also some interpretations - dubious or misleading.  I would delete the whole thing!  ::)

Try to read the whole discussion - Conclusion was that silver SBs realy represent only a small fraction of close to 7000 planes made.
Silver AE-8 was used from December 1938 and less than a year later, in fall 1939, AE-9 was re-introduced on production lines.  Probably "only" between 500 and 1000 planes were factory painted in silver.  Statisticaly, only one in 10 SBs was silver.   ;)

BTW, SBs on two photos on your new page are tipical "96 Series" machines with M-103 engines, made in 1939 (hence silver colour).  Those two SBs are not SB M-100 nor SB M-100A!!!
How do you distinguish SB M-100 from SB M-100A anyway???  ???

Hi Jason,  :)
I will translate them, if Massimo change "KHAKI" on pre 1937 page into something more appropriate.  ::)

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
if you want, I'll delete those notes on which you are still in doubt. But if I delete all things on which there are doubts, any page would be full of omissions and scarcely useful.

I've updated those pages, I'll update soon again. I think to have cancelled the word khaki and replaced with olive green, is it remained somewhere?
About SB 2M-100 and 100A, I think that the A had three blade propellers and the early version two-blades propellers. Isn't it?

Another doubt is: it was suggested that army colors of AKAN are the same of the experimental camouflages; but on the text of Hornat I read that they were water-soluble paints. Were Army colors  water-soluble or oil paints?
Regards
Massimo

Hi,
I've uploaded another page:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html)
Please, let me know any suggestion on this.
Massimo

Another nice page, Massimo!  Of course I like the Shturmovik photos but the other photographs are interesting also.

Regards,

Jason

I still think it would be better to delete that particular chronology ? for example: there is no evidence that first 30 Spanish SBs were unpainted.  Mr. Maslov most likely guessed there.


From first sentence:  ??dark greenish khaki paint called Zashchitnyi??

IMHO, when you describe pre-1937 green colour you should use adjectiv dark.  So, ?dark yellowish green? or ?dark green with yellow hue? or maybe ?dark olive green? (if that means anything, olives are always olive green).  ?Olive green? should be reserved for 4BO and AMT-4.


No!  If you don?t know plane?s factory No or time when it was made, you can?t tell what engine was behind that flat frontal radiator!
M-100A replaced M-100 in early 1937 and three-blade propeller started to appear much later in 1938.  


Not 100% sure but, Akanihin?s set of Army paints represents colour etalons from 1939 Red Army camouflage tests.  Same colours were specified by NIIIT for VVS camouflage tests in August 1940.

Paints used in 1940 VVS tests were water soluble (Vahlamov & Orlov, 1999).

Army camouflage paints used during GPW were oil based and had different names.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Massimo,  :)

Comments on new 1940-1941 page:

Comment 1.
?but many factories didn't conform immediately to this and continued to paint newly produced planes with previous silver/grey liveries for at least some months?

Is that so crucial?  ?Sounds like Pilawskii:  those were only recommendations.  Nadia Bukhanova preferred Aii Brown loops over tractor green (striking appliqu?)?.  ;D

All the factories had to comply; Zavod 125 in Irkutsk (Far East!) started to finish their SBs in new camouflage scheme from the plane No 47/11 on August 07, 1940.   (You can?t ask for more details???)

Comment 2.
A-19f is described as ?light green? by Vahlamov and Orlov, and ?grass green? by Maslov.  A-19f was different shade than AII Z.  Series MiG-3s were not solid green even when new.  Maybe Soviet film didn?t record this feature as good as German film?

Comment 3.
MiG-3 stabilizer preserved in Vesivehmaa depot is repainted.  Original A-19f is visible where later olive green AMT-4 (or A-24m) is chipped.

4.
Poor, neglected, misunderstood SB (my favorite plane):  plane on the colour photo was made in first half of 1940 as light gray (polished AE-9).  Green upper surfaces are obviously over painted in field, even the brush strokes are visible.  This explains ?the unusually curved demarcation line on the fuselage sides?.

5.
SB with frontal radiator is not one of the ?Older types of SB?.  It was made in fall 1940 or early 1941 by Zavod 125 in Irkutsk.  As I said before, the frontal radiator is not indicative for different SB types. ;)

6.
June 1940 - July 1941 planes could be distinguished from post ?July planes by their markings:
?   Red stars with thin black outline
?   Markings on upper wing surfaces
?   No markings on tail fin

Hope this helps!!!

Cheers,  :)
KL

Hi Jason,
thank you.
By the way, have you a good photo of an Il-2 with metal fuselage and uniform green finish of early 1941, please? I'm not really sure that the photo that I've inserted is of a plane with metallic rear fuselage, and I would show the uniformity of green color on this type.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Konstantin,
to my eyes, all of these colors are dark; AMT-4, when new, should be nearly as dark as 34079. The images of  Chinese Tu-2 and the relative color comparison seem to confirm this. I have always seen 4BO represented as lighter than this, so I wonder if they are really similar.
Perhaps A-19F was lighter, but I suspect that it was dark when new.

Well, all photos that I've uploaded have three-blades propellers, so they have to be M-100A. I have not seen photos of two blades SB during Barbarossa, maybe they had already sent them all to Spain?





I have the strong impression that some types were rarely or never painted with this standard. For example, I don't remember to have seen UT-1 or UT-2 painted in uniform green, only silver-grey or, later, camouflaged. At the same time, the SB-3F were rarely uniform green at the age of Barbarossa, , the production of one year of a recent plane should be much more represented in photos.




Regards
Massimo :)

Hi Konstantin,
continuing...
Perhaps... but is it descrived in this way in documents of that age? Those authors live at our days, so they have seen that paint only in aged version.
In German photos, the difference of shade is more marked with the ageing of the plane (early production MiG-1s, planes abandoned...) while new-looking planes are more uniform.

I'm not convinced of this interpretation. I see some chips of more brownish green, but this would mean that A-19f was more brown than AMT-4. Besides the plane was lost on July 12, 1941, so it's difficult that AMT-4 had already arrived to units, and that matched so well the color of the frame of postion light on the wing. Photos of it on Red Stars show that the rudder was lighter than the stabilizer. Maybe they have painted both elevators and rudder with A-19f because of lacking of AII green? It seems to have not suffered for this.
Besides, the internal parts of the dismantled stabilizator  looks painted with the same color of exterior (as written by Lumppio too), and this let me think that this is the original color of the metal parts, painted before final assembling.
yes, in this they were identical to the marks of all the prewar period.
Regards
Massimo :)

and why not M-103???  Silver SB is 1939 M-103 plane.
Last shipment sent to Spain in May 1938 were M-100A planes and they had two-blade propellors.
There are German photos of SBs with two-blade propellors, try to look harder.  John or Jason may help???  ::)



May 1940 directive was applicable only to combat planes (made after June 1940), not to trainers.
There are many German photos of DB-3F (Il-4) in May 1940 scheme, you should look harder.  John or Jason may help???  ::)


No, 1940 directive was very specific about markings.  There was a variety of Red Stars before this directive:  red stars without outlines on I-16s, red stars with inscribed black circles on I-153s, etc.  Between June 1940 and July 1941, there was only Red Star with black outline.

Cheers,  :)
KL

Massimo, how about this one.  This appears to be a Barbarossa victim painted in overall green topsides (A-19f I presume, although it's not very glossy).  This is a very early Shturmovik as it has a landing light in the starboard wing, unarmoured sliding canopy, and the ShKAS machine guns outboard of the ShVAK's (although they've been removed).  If you look at the fin, it appears to be slightly wavy, as if composed of different (metal) panels.  If it were wooden it would appear more even.  The green colour to me looks fairly uniform over the entire aircraft.

Regards,

Jason


(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-1-SeaterVeryEarlyVersionwithMetalFuselage-BarbarossaVictim.jpg)

Very good image, Jason. I've included it in the next release of the page. :)
I've looked for good photos of Il-2 showing black/green camouflage. I've found some, I wonder if it's possible to recognize some recurrent pattern painted in factory.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Konstantin,
Because of the turret.  How do you distinguish between them?

It would be good. It's a pair of weeks that I am passing all my free time looking into the huge directories of my hard disks.
Hmm... it would be interesting to find an I-153 with 1940 scheme and stars without the circle.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I have more suggestions for 1940-41 page:

1. You should explain May 1940 directive ? green upper surfaces/light blue lower surfaces and Red star with black outline in 6 positions.  Directive dealt only with new combat planes made after June 1940!

Planes made before June 1940 and repainted in solid green don?t belong to this page!!!
Planes camouflaged in units, in the field, are totally different subject.  There were ?veterans? from Halkin-Gol and Winter War, planes camouflaged in spring 1941 (before German attack) and planes that were hastily camouflaged in summer 1941 that didn?t comply with any official scheme.

2. Provide clear examples for May 1940 scheme.  

Your I-16 colour photo is probably OK.  Other photos from the same unit clearly shows red star outlined in black:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/080428153438_dt17.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/0000xxn04.jpg)

With Type 24, you are never sure when the plane was made: before or after June 1940.  The safest I-16 for May 1940 scheme is Type 29

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/67464d7ef14c.jpg)

Third I-16 photo (Type 5 planes) is not representative for May 1940 scheme!  Remove it... ???

Your SB colour photo is not representative.  The plane is made before June 1940 and it was repainted in the field.  I would remove it from this page.
More representative photos would be "SB dive bomber? made in Zavod 22 in autumn 1940 (planes with convex cockpit canopy, MV-3 and MV-2 turrets/mounts, windscreen mounted antenna mast)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/000000370801-Vitebsk.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/0_7822_3ec591fd_orig.jpg)


Your photo of Irkutsk SB (camouflaged SB with frontal radiator and MV-3 turret, windscreen mounted antenna mast) is a good example for May 1940 scheme.  This plane was made after August 07 1940.

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/070222235405_1170078.jpg)

You may also add Yer-2 and Pe-8 examples to your page.

Remove R-10 if its production stopped before June 1940.

I know that you will have to put much more work into this page, but it should clearly show what was May 1940 scheme.
Hope this helps.  :D

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions and photos. It's certainly better to make a separate page for the old repainted planes, as I have to do for 1941-43 planes, because the one I am working on now has become too wide and full of photos. But often it's difficult to distinguish repainted planes from new ones, as for Po-2
after 1941.
Some good photos of Er-2, Pe-8 with the right livery would fasten my work, as photos of I-153s built in late 1940 (without circle of course!). By the way, now I'm working on 1941/43 page too.
About the schemes, I'll have to trace some... wait for a while, please.
Regards
Massimo :)

Pe-8

(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV08-5/9-4.jpg)
(http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV08-5/21-1.jpg)

I couldn?t find pre-war Yer-2 photo.  71 Yer-2 bombers were ordered at the beginning of 1941. 42 machines were accepted by VVS by the end of June 1941.  70th bomber was completed in Sept 1941.
Yer-2  M-105 in pre-war recognition booklet

(http://www.sovplane.ru/foto/ep2_4b.jpg)

421 DBAP, summer or more likely fall 1941.  The plane could have been camouflaged in Green-Black scheme.

(http://www.airpages.ru/img/er2bp.jpg)

Useful page, but not much about earliest Yer-2 M-105
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft21770.htm

Pashinin I-21

(http://www.airpages.ru/img/i21.jpg)

Yatsenko I-28 (there are better photos, can?t find them)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i28/i28-1.jpg)

Nice finds, Konstantin!  I've always liked the Yer-2.  Although I've read that the Amodel kit is somewhat difficult to build, I may just have to get it, although I'd love to have the earlier version with the asymmetrical canopy.  I also like the Pashinin I-21; with the aft-positioned canopy it looks like a racer, although I don't imagine the pilot had a very good view on takeoff and landing.  I already have the Zvezda kit of the Pe-8 (TB-7) - very nice kit (and BIG).

Regards,

Jason

I-153 is tougher than I thought?.

By the end of production in 1941, a total of 3,437 I-153s were built.
In the second half of 1940 and in January 1941, between 150 and 200 planes were made every month.  In last 6 months of production about 1000 planes were made.  In theory, 30% or every third I-153 should be painted in green-blue scheme according to the May 1940 directive.

Factory green-blue I-153s are not rare, they are hard to confirm?.

IMHO, all of the following are representative for May 1940 scheme:

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/2011-01-24-356.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/090310180410_russflieger.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/h2688a.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/h2688.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/gd_8_19_07_125.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/File0360.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/c10a-n.jpg)

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/116396264.jpg)

Hope this will help,

Cheers,
KL

Hi Massimo,  :)

In my I-153 folder I have 180 pictures.  about 50 are "Green-Blue"!  among them

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/I-153BPKcomp.jpg)


Both planes are "Green-Blue" - cowling of the left plane is obvious.  Note the underside of the upper wing root on the right plane - it's green.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
this is good enough, even if it remains the doubt on some stars, thanks to souvenir hunters.
Yes, the wingrot is green also on bw photos. Thank you for your efforts.
Best regards
Massimo :)

Hi Massimo,
I did notice few examples of "green-blue" scheme combined with the "star with black circle".
It looks that black circle did persist, but hey, it was Zavod 1! Didn't they have their own "FACTORY GREEN" widely used on pre-war Mig-3s???

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
this is interesting, but i's difficult to distinguish repainted planes from those that were factory painted.
By the way, the plane of the photo with the evident red star shows not the upper wing roots. Couldn't it be another type as I-15bis?
Factory green is mentioned by Hornat, that doesn't mention AII green. I think that he misinterpreted AII green as factory green.
Hornat mentions also tractor green and tobacco, and southern camouflages. I don't know if he is right, but I know what was the source of some of our old friends.
However, there are indication of the use of some non-standard dark emerald green to repaint a TB-3 in an old post on AWF.
Regards
Massimo :)

I am pretty sure that most (probably all) of those ?Green-Blue? I-153s, were factory painted in this scheme to comply with May 1940 directive!  Try to do some statistics:  count all solid ?green-blue? wrecks and you will get about 30% of all I-153 photos.  I got 28% and that corresponds to about 1000 planes produced in last 6 months of production (second half of 1940). 


Yes, I had the same suspicions.  It could be an I-15bis.

I don?t know why and how long black circles persisted.  Too bad those souvenir hunters cut out almost every Red Star even before photographing the plane (Where are they now? That is the real ?Mein Doodle?).


Factory green is Pilawskii?s fairytale!  He thought that early Mig-3s were lime green (his own version of AII Green) but most evidence showed something darker. So he invented a new colour. 


what was the source?  Tell us!
Hornat & Migliardy are wrong when they write about tractors, tobacco and Southern Deserts.
I saw two Hornat?s texts from 1988-89:  except for 1943 NKAP schemes there isn?t much.  ?Colors of the Falcons? rely both on Vahlamov & Orlov (1999) and on Pilavskii (2003).   


Monino TB-3 wreck was a civil plane pressed in VVS service in 1941.  Its colours are a special case, nothing to do with pre-war Mig-3.

Cheers,
KL

Correction!!!  :o

Yatsenko?s I-28 belongs to 1937-40 period.  Prototype flew for the first time in summer 1939, second prototype appeared in fall 1939.
According to Maslov, prototype?s colours are described in flight testing reports as: ?Protective Green? upper surfaces and SILVER undersurfaces.
 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Posted%20in%20forums/i28-1_labeled.jpg)

It?s interesting that I-28 series production did start in early 1940 at Zavod 292 in Saratov.  On May 25, 1940, I-28 production was cancelled in favor of I-26 (Yak-1).  Ten I-28 airframes were finished but engines were never installed on them.

An example for wrong underside colour:

(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/1351/pics/1_1.jpg)

As we have learned, between 1937 and 1940 there was no light blue undersides?  ;)


Another ?Green-Blue? prototype that complied with 1940 directive was Bisnovat SK-2.  Tested in winter 1940/41

(http://www.rumodelism.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/review/054/1.jpg?cache=cache)

(http://www.rumodelism.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/review/054/9.jpg?cache=cache)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/sk2/sk2-1.jpg)

Cheers,
KL

Thank you Konstantin,
some prototypes could be good in the page.
I  wonder what is the color under the nose of Yatsenko, it should be AE-9 but its look is much darker than on I-16s.
By the way, have you good plotos of Yak-6 with green/black and 3 shades livery, please?
Regards
Massimo.

In 1939, metal cowling could have been painted both in gray AE-9 and silver AE-8

Sorry, nothing on my HD.  Check:
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft22410.htm
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/yak6.html
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/aircrafts/247-yak6.html
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1226041331/0

or
http://www.google.ru/images?q=%D0%AF%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2+%D0%AF%D0%BA-6&hl=ru&newwindow=1&prmd=ivns&wrapid=tlif129919130051510&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1260&bih=835

Here's one that just showed up on ebay.de today:

(http://s1.postimage.org/2lgfrkzt0/I_153_87.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2lgfrkzt0/)

John

Yeah, nothing like having what looks like a wooden gummi bear on top of an artefact of the most vicious and bloody invasion of all time.
Something just a bit inappropriate about that.  Like putting a smiley face on top of a photo of a long line of Stalingrad prisoners.

Regards,

Jason

Hi John and Jason,
nice image, very sharp. Pity for the bear, but maybe the star could be utilized in some way.
Hi Konstantin, I had a look at the links. Not bad, thank you.
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, I'm sure you'll be able to "Photoshop" our little friend out the way.  The photo certainly shows off the circle in star well.

Regards,

Jason

Massimo - a page or two back, you requested images of Il-2's in green/black upper surface camouflage. Here's what I've found so far; some of these are only parts of aircraft, but I hope they are helpful.

Regarding Konstantin's request for Il-4/DB-3F and SB images (reply #27 in this thread), I'm afraid I can't offer anything - all I've been saving have been single-engined types; I'm sorry!

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s6on88pw/Scannen0007.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s6on88pw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23uxnavus/Il_2_40.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23uxnavus/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s59dkhes/Il_2_37.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s59dkhes/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23unq2sw4/Il_2_31.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23unq2sw4/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2x15ji3b8/Il_2_21.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2x15ji3b8/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s4uhqcys/Il_2_19.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s4uhqcys/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s4iwyxic/Il_2_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s4iwyxic/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s48zqujo/1625_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s48zqujo/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s3qsu144/11_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s3qsu144/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2wwa8jays/10_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2wwa8jays/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23uc5bdfo/Il_2_22.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23uc5bdfo/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2wy7p3vpg/12c3_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2wy7p3vpg/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s3bwzwo4/0f4f_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s3bwzwo4/)

John

Nice Shturmovik photographs, John!  Looks like my collection just got a little bit larger.

Regards,

Jason

Hi John,
thank you for your help. Now I can try to make correlations with the photos I have.
I've collected photos of Su-2 and recognized at least two standardized camo schemes, plus some other ones that perhaps were not. If I can ask, have you photos of camouflaged Su-2s too, please?
Regards
Massimo

Images of Su-2 with green/black upper surfaces; I hope the pattern is visible on these. You may have to brighten some of them up a bit to see it.

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dpg5k2pw/2009_10_20_104.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dpg5k2pw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dr3owkhw/Su_2_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dr3owkhw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2ds42q7d0/Su_2_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2ds42q7d0/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dssvsero/Su_2_9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dssvsero/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/txm4dxgk/Su_2_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/txm4dxgk/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2duvaz0zo/Su_2_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2duvaz0zo/)

I wish I had more - for some reason, I really like the Su-2, but it was obviously not as common as the Il-2!

John

(Oops - the same image is there twice, from two different sources! Sorry - I guess I have even fewer images than I thought! :( )

Thank you John, these images will be helpful. I'm going to compare them to the other ones, and I hope to produce some sketches too.
By the way, did you find images of silver Su-2 too?
Regards
Massimo

My pleasure; no, I haven't seen any silver Su-2 images. All the ones I've saved are either green only or green and black. I'll watch for silver ones!

John

Massimo, I've been looking at my black/green IL-2 photographs and the patterns seem to be all over the place.  It does seem that the nose was usually painted black, but other than that, it's hard to see set patterns.  It's not like the 1943 NKAP schemes.  As a matter of fact, I notice in the V&O articles in MHobby, they didn't have any pattern drawings for the black/green scheme.  However, I'll keep looking and see if I can't determine some repeatedly used patterns or schemes.  Maybe Mr. Lesnikov can shed some light on this question.  Below is a lineup of IL-2 straight-winged two-seaters (at the factory?) that all appear to be painted in a common black-green pattern. 

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-2-SeatersinBlack-GreenFactoryFinish.jpg)

More Su-2 images on avia-n-aero here:
http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php?category_id=28&parent_id=28

Also notice the links to Su-2 albums on the same site in the top left corner of that page; these are (mostly) different images from the ones in the link above, grouped together for some special purpose such as several photos of the same aircraft. So far I've seen one or two which might be a worn aluminum colour; definitely not green, and it doesn't look like white, either.

Same thing for Ilyushins, including Il-2:
http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php?category_id=21&parent_id=21

John

Hi Jason,
thank you for the image, it'll be useful.:)
The standard NKAP template of 1941 was much more utilized than I thought, even if with some variations due to the proportions of the plane. I thaced a scheme for Pe-2 yesterday night, and it has much in common, but the 'half-balls' on the sides were transformed into a whole band. I saw the NKAP on the most part of Yaks, Lavochkins, some early Il-2s, Yak-6s, some Su-2, and other types are still to check. The scheme for many MiG-3s is similar, if we remove the half-balls from the rear fuselage, too short, and add a green band on the long nose.
Regards
Massimo

Su-2 (BB-1) production was very slow at the beginning (first half of 1940).  In first three months of 1940 only 5 planes were made.  Further 29 planes were made in the second quarter of the year.  Those 34 planes are probably the only Su-2s not painted in May 1940 scheme.
John made another great find:

 (http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/coa/_files/photogallery/674945C8DC50F0DCE.jpg)

(http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/coa/_files/photogallery/1207545C8DC4E7EEDA.jpg)

2 photos are probably showing some of those earliest series Su-2s.

Cheers,
KL

Su-2 prototypes:

SZ-2, first flight 1937

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/sz2/sz2-3.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/sz2/sz2-8.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/sz2/sz2-1.jpg)

Ivanov M-87A, April 1939

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/su2/su2-1.jpg)

Ivanov M-88, November 1939

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/su2/su2-2.jpg)

First prototype was IMHO light gray AE-9.  It was an all metal plane, SB colours make sense.
1939 prototypes look darker, especially M-87A prototype.  I would not guess there... :-X

First series BB-1 were light gray -same as SB bombers made in first half of 1940.

(http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/coa/_files/photogallery/674945C8DC50F0DCE.jpg)

(http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/coa/_files/photogallery/1207545C8DC4E7EEDA.jpg)

Cheers,
KL

Hi Massimo,   :)

For your convenience I started a new tread about 1941 Black-Green camouflage scheme at
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=728c95623784512fccf5ee0a8008ae19&topic=957.msg5433#new

You may also consider renaming this tread into something like ?Pre-1941 schemes?.

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your comments, silver/grey Su-2s could be added to the page of 1940 planes. Pity for the scarce images, but I have found a pair of photos of an overall silver Su-2 in 1942, flying aside two camouflaged ones. It's a famous movie, I suppose that you could have already seen it. It shows a silver cowling too, only the foldable panels behind the turret are darker. The persistence of this painting is surprising.
Ivanov M-88 looks cherry red as Yak and I-301 were supposed to be.
Thank you for opening a new topic on post-1941 planes, I'll post something there for sure.
Regards
Massimo

you should add Su-2s made in first 6 months of 1940 to your 1937-1940 page.  IMHO, those planes were light gray overall, same as SB bombers made at the same time.  Only about 30 planes were painted in this scheme - they should be extremely rare!!!


1942 plane is more likely representative for winter camouflage!  Or some field improvisation, I would not mix that with 1937-1940 scheme!


or just "protective green".  Yak and Lagg prototypes were mixed construction/wooden planes and were treated different than all metal Su-2 prototype.
Cheers,
KL