Sovietwarplanes

Great Patriotic War Aviation => Painting standards during the GPW => Topic started by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:25:23 PM



Title: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:25:23 PM
...
I've looked for good photos of Il-2 showing black/green camouflage. I've found some, I wonder if it's possible to recognize some recurrent pattern painted in factory.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:27:24 PM
Massimo - a page or two back, you requested images of Il-2's in green/black upper surface camouflage. Here's what I've found so far; some of these are only parts of aircraft, but I hope they are helpful.

Regarding Konstantin's request for Il-4/DB-3F and SB images (reply #27 in this thread), I'm afraid I can't offer anything - all I've been saving have been single-engined types; I'm sorry!

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s6on88pw/Scannen0007.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s6on88pw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23uxnavus/Il_2_40.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23uxnavus/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s59dkhes/Il_2_37.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s59dkhes/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23unq2sw4/Il_2_31.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23unq2sw4/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2x15ji3b8/Il_2_21.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2x15ji3b8/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s4uhqcys/Il_2_19.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s4uhqcys/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s4iwyxic/Il_2_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s4iwyxic/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s48zqujo/1625_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s48zqujo/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s3qsu144/11_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s3qsu144/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2wwa8jays/10_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2wwa8jays/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/23uc5bdfo/Il_2_22.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/23uc5bdfo/)

(http://s1.postimage.org/2wy7p3vpg/12c3_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2wy7p3vpg/)

(http://s4.postimage.org/1s3bwzwo4/0f4f_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1s3bwzwo4/)

John


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:28:44 PM
Hi John,
thank you for your help. Now I can try to make correlations with the photos I have.
I've collected photos of Su-2 and recognized at least two standardized camo schemes, plus some other ones that perhaps were not. If I can ask, have you photos of camouflaged Su-2s too, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
Images of Su-2 with green/black upper surfaces; I hope the pattern is visible on these. You may have to brighten some of them up a bit to see it.

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dpg5k2pw/2009_10_20_104.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dpg5k2pw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dr3owkhw/Su_2_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dr3owkhw/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2ds42q7d0/Su_2_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2ds42q7d0/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2dssvsero/Su_2_9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2dssvsero/)

(http://s2.postimage.org/txm4dxgk/Su_2_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/txm4dxgk/)

(http://s3.postimage.org/2duvaz0zo/Su_2_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2duvaz0zo/)

I wish I had more - for some reason, I really like the Su-2, but it was obviously not as common as the Il-2!

John

(Oops - the same image is there twice, from two different sources! Sorry - I guess I have even fewer images than I thought! :( )


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
Massimo, I've been looking at my black/green IL-2 photographs and the patterns seem to be all over the place.  It does seem that the nose was usually painted black, but other than that, it's hard to see set patterns.  It's not like the 1943 NKAP schemes.  As a matter of fact, I notice in the V&O articles in MHobby, they didn't have any pattern drawings for the black/green scheme.  However, I'll keep looking and see if I can't determine some repeatedly used patterns or schemes.  Maybe Mr. Lesnikov can shed some light on this question.  Below is a lineup of IL-2 straight-winged two-seaters (at the factory?) that all appear to be painted in a common black-green pattern. 

Regards,

Jason

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/IL-2-2-SeatersinBlack-GreenFactoryFinish.jpg)


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:35:37 PM
Hi Jason,
thank you for the image, it'll be useful.:)
The standard NKAP template of 1941 was much more utilized than I thought, even if with some variations due to the proportions of the plane. I thaced a scheme for Pe-2 yesterday night, and it has much in common, but the 'half-balls' on the sides were transformed into a whole band. I saw the NKAP on the most part of Yaks, Lavochkins, some early Il-2s, Yak-6s, some Su-2, and other types are still to check. The scheme for many MiG-3s is similar, if we remove the half-balls from the rear fuselage, too short, and add a green band on the long nose.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 07, 2011, 06:55:01 PM
June/July 1941 camouflage scheme:

(http://mdk.org.ua/221.jpg)


The scheme was developed by OKB Yakovlev. Their I-30, first flown in spring 1941 camouflaged in Black-Green, served as a prototype for the new NKAP scheme:

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i30/i30-5.jpg)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i30/i30-7.jpg)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i30/i30-6.jpg)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i30/i30-8.jpg)

Cheers,
KL


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 08, 2011, 09:23:17 AM
Hi Konstantin, well done.
For what I think to understand on the booklet of Orlov, there was already a so-camouflaged UTI-26-1 (two-seater Yak-1) in 1940.
I'll upload soon the proviional page on planes of 1941-43. I've tried to trace some templates, but I think to have had a good success for Pe-2 only. Su-2 are forthemost unstandardized, apart for some exceptions, but i's difficult to connect the camouflage from the right to that of the left side. Yak-4, Tu-2 and Ye-2 looks similar to Pe-2s, but clear photos are unsufficient. Yak-6 is fully standardized. Still to see for Tu-4 and Li-2.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 08, 2011, 05:54:57 PM
For what I think to understand on the booklet of Orlov, there was already a so-camouflaged UTI-26-1 (two-seater Yak-1) in 1940.

Correct, UTI-26 flew for the first time in summer 1940.

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/i26/i26-7.jpg)

Orlov writes that camouflage scheme was developed in a rush, in 3 days.  Two models were painted in "new" scheme (already seen on Yakovlev's prototypes) and those were accepted as a standard.  Drawings that were attached to June 25 directive showed only one side view and plan view.  Later, at OKB Yakovlev and in Saratov, there was a better understanding what drawings were supposed to represent.  Others had to improvise, more or less.

Cheers,
KL   


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 08, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
another Black-Green scheme prototype:  Yakovlev's high altitude fighter I-28, first flight Dec 01, 1940

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/yak5/yak5-3.jpg)


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 08, 2011, 09:16:07 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for the images and suggestions. Now I have to find something on Il-4 and Li-2, and maybe on camouflaged SB.
I think that I'll use that photo of Su-2 for repainted planes of 1941, and those of prototypes and of silver planes in the 1937-40 page.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 09, 2011, 04:22:35 PM
Hi,
I've uploaded the page at
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html)
Although still rough and far from completion, it has already some interesting things, as the templates of Pe-2 and Il-4.
Now I'm seeking something on Li-2, I have only two good photos allowing to try to trace a template, but the type looks very underdocumented.
Photos of camouflaged UT-1 and UT-2 would be welcome too.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: learstang on March 09, 2011, 06:02:29 PM
It's looking good, Massimo!  It'll be great to have it finished - finally a complete and accurate guide (in English) to the 1941-43 VVS black/green paint scheme.  This should prove a very valuable resource for modellers.

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: -spokito- on March 09, 2011, 07:00:56 PM
waow, it's so helpfull to have this kind of webpage in modelling !
great work indeed !
thanks massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 09, 2011, 08:04:03 PM
Hi Massimo,
In general, very good!  :)

1.
Title should be something like: ?June 1941 Camouflage Scheme? or ?Painting of Soviet warplanes made between summer 1941and autumn 1943?

2.
Stress should be on elements of the directive that were followed by all factories and units:

?   All planes (new & old) were camouflaged in what was called disruptive (shape deforming) camouflage scheme
?   Only green and black were used during this period
?   Markings removed from upper wing surfaces and added to tailfin/rudder 

3.
There was one official pattern (one that was published in Aviakolektsiya 2008-12).  All other patterns are what they are:  variations of the original.  We can only guess why or how widespread those variations were.

IMHO, you are using too often ?NKAP pattern wasn?t followed?.  It?s obvious when it wasn?t.  Does that mean that directive wasn?t followed and everything else was allowed? Green-brown or brown-light brown schemes were OK???

(http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/mludwig_01/DSC07408.jpg)

It?s really Pilawskii?s approach:  ?those were recommendations only, Zavods were allowed to use any kind of paint they could find, girls painted harts and loops on planes, etc?.  You don?t want to repeat Pilawskii?s mistakes.

4.
...many depots of pigments were in Ukraine, now occupied by Germans.  This should read ?many mineral deposits??

5.
Il-2M is non existing designation

6.
Directive wasn?t clear about the markings, but Red Star without outline became a standard.  Red star outlined in black didn?t make sense on black background.

7.
A detail that was sometimes followed and sometimes wasn?t:  Border between green and black was clearly shown as gradual (over-sprayed) on drawings.  This was an important element of Burche?s camouflage theory.  Sometimes this gradual transition was simulated with brush, sometimes over-spray was wider, sometimes narrower and sometimes the border was left sharp.  In theory, it was supposed to be over-sprayed.

Cheers,
KL 




Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 09, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions.
I'll make some modifications gradually. I should find some idea to improve the layout too.
About red stars with black outline; I've found a lot of them on photos. The black of the outline is not the same of the camouflage, but darker, and contrasts even on the black bands of the camouflage. I don't know if it's oil or nitro, but there is the T black nitrolacquer in inventory.
Hi Jason, hi Francis, thank you for your encouragement. Please, look carefully for each defect you can find.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 09, 2011, 10:54:41 PM
Hi Massimo,
most of your page is how camouflage patterns on real planes complied or didn't comply with two drawings attached to the directive.  If pattern didn't comply you are writing about "non-standard scheme".  Non-standard scheme may mean non-standard colours and/or nonstandard pattern - like brown, light brown, tractor green colour or loops, tiger stripes, raised ramp pattern.

IMHO its better to call those "pattern variations" or "original patterns" or "different patterns", not "non-standard schemes".  June 1941 directive was mandatory - everything made between summer 1941 and fall 1943 was camouflaged in black-green!

a native English speaker (Jason?) or somebody with better English (Mario?) should correct many grammar mistakes.

Cheers,
KL 


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: learstang on March 10, 2011, 12:27:48 AM
Konstantin, I think "different patterns" conveys what you're trying to say.  At least it does to me.  It doesn't indicate anything about the colours being different, just the pattern.  Also, Massimo, in the first paragraph about the Tu-2, you refer to it as the "IL-2".

Regards,

Jason


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 12, 2011, 05:56:35 PM
Hi,
I'm updating the page with photos of other types. It has become long, so I think that the definitive version will be lightened and some of the documents will be transferred into pages related to each type.
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: KL on March 15, 2011, 08:49:13 PM
Nice example of 1941 black-green scheme:

(http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/altyn73/AVIA_03_2011/av130305iap172.jpg)

172 IAP 1941.

KL


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on March 16, 2011, 07:11:27 AM
Hi Kontantin,
nice image, thank you.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 26, 2011, 08:22:18 AM
Hi,
I've updated this page, now accessible by the menu of the site.
After the Pe-8, I've added a collage of photos of a Yak-9 showing all the details of its camouflage, and a serie of photos of Yak-6 and a provisional template for black-green camouflage.
Unfortunately, photos of Yak-6 are not too many, and the work is still leaving doubts and has to be regarded as provisional.
Has anyone further photos of Yak-6 to help, please?
Regards
Massimo


Title: Black-Green Camouflage Scheme - Yak 6
Post by: michman on May 26, 2011, 08:29:15 PM
Are these perhaps of use ?

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/cww2/yak6.html
http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/cww2/yak6-i.jpg

http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art4484.htm
http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AV/AV06-4/36-2.jpg

http://forums.airforce.ru/showthread.php?t=1768&page=25
http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/SSSR-A-00831.jpg
(in the background)


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 27, 2011, 12:01:06 AM
Hi Michman,
unfortunately, no. I have already all of them. Thank you all the same.
Regards
Massimo


Title: Re: 1941 Black-Green Camouflage Scheme
Post by: Massimo Tessitori on May 27, 2011, 08:15:54 AM
Hi all,
I've added some camo schemes of Il-2M (I know that it was not an official designation...) probably built in Zavod 1.
Regards
Massimo