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Questions on Boston (recovered topic)
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Author Topic: Questions on Boston (recovered topic)  (Read 38481 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: April 09, 2011, 02:32:08 PM »

hello,

i'll probably start my A20G  italeri 48? this week.
 there is a VVS marking inside and i would like to know if it's "historic"or not.
do you have any information about this particular plane ?


here's the special marking :

we can see the patriotic inscription "3a CCCP" (for the ussr) & the serial number 3740
the red star appear with a white border.

thanks for your reply

francis
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 02:37:12 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 02:37:56 PM »

Hi Francis

I don't know if I have seen this scheme, it looks believable.

There are quite a few pictures of Boston's in VVS service, and if you fancy a project, the VVS modified the gun nose A-20's to bomb aimer postions, installing a sight and various windows.

like this


some more information here

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/arti...likov/index.htm

note the is a link to a Russian site,
there are a load of photos here http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/_Equipment.html#Part01

http://www.bellabs.ru/51/index.html
hint, move your mouse over the sections, in the status bar it will say what they are in English if you don't read cyrillic.


photogallery http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/boston/index.htm

cheers
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »

Francis, one problem with that A-20G with the four cannons is that those were early G's, without the turret, which the USAAF sent to the Soviet Union because they didn't like the 20mm's in the nose.  Some of the A-20G's we sent did have the turrets, but not the ones with the 20's.  To do one with the 20mm cannons, you'd have to do surgery around the turret to make it look like an A-20C gun position.  If you had a spare A-20C lying around, you could graft that section on (but I think the old AMT A-20C or any repackaging is too nice of a kit to use simply as a donor kit).  Here's a link where someone turned the A-20G into a VVS nightfighter:

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Douglas...20GNF/index.php

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »

hello,
after some hours .... i did my choice.
it will be that one :
 
they have a profil in the website given by troy smith (thanks troy Wink  :
 
special link of the this plane here
and we find  also some nice photos of the torpedo pod to scratch it
1 have a question about the color of the round under the red star of the fuselage.
it seems to be green on my screen but i think it's the US marking color, so it's blue .. no ?
another doubt is for the nose cannons, what is your feeling about them ? should they are installed or not ? i would say yes but i would be glad to have another avis.

regards

francis
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2011, 02:40:54 PM »

Quote from: dixieflyer,Feb 9 2011, 06:35 PM
And what is that underneath  the wing and beside the fuselage in the photograph? It's not a torpedo, if it was, they have it mounted backwards.  :unsure:

Warren
Probably a torpedo like this one:



KL  :rolleyes:
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 02:41:29 PM »

Hi

just to mention that Authentic Decals from Russia have a sheet out in1/72

AD72-44    A-20 Bostons/Havocs In the Russian Sky







a full list of decals is here.  http://www.olimpmodelsgroup.com/

They have a very interesting Hurricane sheet in 1/72, which I asked about and is due to be done in 1/48 this year, so maybe they will also scale up the A-20 sheet.

Also due out sometime 
Czech Master Kits   CMK4161
Scale:    1:48 Scale
  Douglas A-20G Russian Bomber (designed to be used with AMT and Italeri kits)

which I guess will be the nose conversion of the solid gun nose?

Anyone have more on the VVS fitted turrets shown on the decal sheet above? i have a few pics elsewhere.  What kind of turret is this?

cheers
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 02:42:31 PM »

Quote from: Learstang,Feb 9 2011, 04:10 PM
Quote from: spokito,Feb 9 2011, 10:53 AM
hello,
after some hours .... i did my choice.
it will be that one :
 
they have a profil in the website given by troy smith (thanks troy Wink  :
 
special link of the this plane here
and we find  also some nice photos of the torpedo pod to scratch it
1 have a question about the color of the round under the red star of the fuselage.
it seems to be green on my screen but i think it's the US marking color, so it's blue .. no ?
another doubt is for the nose cannons, what is your feeling about them ? should they are installed or not ? i would say yes but i would be glad to have another avis.

regards

francis
Francis, that Boston has the Martin gun turret so it wouldn't have had the 20mm cannons.  It also looks like it has a glass nose that was painted over and it has two .50 calibre guns under the nose.  The green paint under the star is probably AMT-4 Green, and the paint under the starboard underwing star is probably AMT-7 Blue.  The port upperwing star probably had an AMT-4 circle over the USAAF blue also.  It should make up into a great looking model!

Regards,

Jason
HI

Following the link which Francis gave, there are some interesting pics.

http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/51MTAP_14%2843-10052%29.html

in US  before delivery, 43-10052.


Quote
1 have a question about the color of the round under the red star of the fuselage.
it seems to be green on my screen but i think it's the US marking color, so it's blue .. no ?
Note the white circle stars, so most likely white or silver borders added by VVS and rest over painted with (probably) AMT-4 green. 
Note also the larger star border, and how it is bigger than the green circle border.

The plane never had US blue stars. Painted at factory with red stars on white.
Looking at the underwing overpainting of white this looks like it was just done in green too. AMT -7 blue would appear lighter  than neutral grey, but this is much darker, but looks same a fuselage star. (well given that green on neutral grey would appear darker than green on olive drab.)

Also, the profile shows medium Green blotching on fin and cowlings, but this is not seen in pre delivery photo OR  the VVS photo.

 I think just Olive Drab uppers.
I'm not sure what was standard camo at Douglas at the time, but that would give a definite answer.

Also the planes pre delivery are all A-20G gun nose, not overpainted glass. Are those not 20mm cannon in the nose too(it's too late here to start hunting for that kind of info) but should be easy enough to find out with serial number and model subtype. In VVS service it sure looks like cannons under the nose.

I would als do some research on the rear window position and astrodome, i'm not up on the A-20 to know if these were US standard, or fitted by the VVS.  I know some Bostons had under fuselage guns fitted, and extra windows in rear fuselage. 

Finally, and worth a new thread(later), why the red stars on white circles?  these are US factory applied, and seen on B-25's, A-20, P-39, P-63. Others?

A though occurred, these planes were all delivered on the Alaska-Siberia route,  perhaps these are deliberate High-vis markings,  remember the US Brits and Australians all removed all trace of RED from their pacific area markings, maybe this was to avoid friendly fire incidents during transit, they wold have to have flown over Canada as well.

Jason, thanks for the info on the VVS fitted turrets.

enough, i'm off to bed.
HTH
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2011, 02:43:59 PM »

Quote from: Troy Smith,Feb 10 2011, 07:02 AM
Note the white circle stars, so most likely white or silver borders added by VVS and rest over painted with (probably) AMT-4 green. 
Note also the larger star border, and how it is bigger than the green circle border.

The plane never had US blue stars. Painted at factory with red stars on white.
Looking at the underwing overpainting of white this looks like it was just done in green too. AMT -7 blue would appear lighter  than neutral grey, but this is much darker, but looks same a fuselage star. (well given that green on neutral grey would appear darker than green on olive drab.)

Also, the profile shows medium Green blotching on fin and cowlings, but this is not seen in pre delivery photo OR  the VVS photo.

 I think just Olive Drab uppers.
I'm not sure what was standard camo at Douglas at the time, but that would give a definite answer.

Also the planes pre delivery are all A-20G gun nose, not overpainted glass. Are those not 20mm cannon in the nose too(it's too late here to start hunting for that kind of info) but should be easy enough to find out with serial number and model subtype. In VVS service it sure looks like cannons under the nose.

I would als do some research on the rear window position and astrodome, i'm not up on the A-20 to know if these were US standard, or fitted by the VVS.  I know some Bostons had under fuselage guns fitted, and extra windows in rear fuselage. 

Finally, and worth a new thread(later), why the red stars on white circles?  these are US factory applied, and seen on B-25's, A-20, P-39, P-63. Others?

A though occurred, these planes were all delivered on the Alaska-Siberia route,  perhaps these are deliberate High-vis markings,  remember the US Brits and Australians all removed all trace of RED from their pacific area markings, maybe this was to avoid friendly fire incidents during transit, they wold have to have flown over Canada as well.

Jason, thanks for the info on the VVS fitted turrets.

enough, i'm off to bed.
HTH
Troy
you did a great job !
i'm ok for your rondle reflexion, i didn't notice it yesterday. so it will be amt-4.

look on wikipedia havoc page. (1 know ti could be wrong also..)
wikipedia havoc page
about the versions, they mention the A-20 c equiped with topedo launcher for russians.
and on the photo the nose seems to be a glassed nose repainted.
but it could be also an overworked and worn painting.
also the russians could have taken the device from a boston c and fit it on a boston g ?

my opinion is that referring the number A-20G-35-DO №14 (43-10052)
the plane is a boston G with the cannons
it was probably refited from an A-20 C torpedo device.
the color sheme was probably a standard one when it was delivered (note the sheme on the italeri kit) but it had evolved with the time.
same thing about the turret, the plane was delivered with the standard turret and peraps they change it for a rusian (not all turrrets where replaced, and on the photo it's not easy to see)
so, because of that, i think that the profil we found on that website correspond in the standard delivery status and it's probably good.
the photos are older and of course in that case the profil is wrong.

however, i have to make a choice. it would be easyer for me to bild a standard delivery status essentially besause of the turret doubt. and it will be difficult for me to scratch a turret.

so ...
standard A-20 G with 4 cannons + extra dome + extra side windows
standard sheme oliv drab/green
scratch for the torpedo pod and torpedo
standard turret

have a good sleep Wink

francis
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2011, 02:44:56 PM »

Hi Francis

I can see this is getting confusing with all the posts! 

First, the turret fitted to the A-20 G-35-DO №14 (43-10052)

The turret in the picture is clearly the Martin type fitted in the US.  The only Bostons fitted with soviet Turrets were the earlier A-20C models which were not fitted with turrets, the VVS was not happy with the armament, so they  fitted Russian turrets.

The A-20G was fitted with a Martin turret, so no reason to fit a new one.  The VVS did not replace equipment that worked well. 
Note, the Martin turret was made from pieces of perspex glued together. These give the appearance of painted  panel lines, but are not, they are translucent white.

I have never seen a VVS A-20 with painted over nose glazing. later the converted gun nose A-20 for a navigator/bomb aimer.    This plane has the standard gun nose. I can't see if had the 4x.50 cal guns or not.


As far as I know, the USA NEVER used the A-20 as a torpedo bomber, that was done by the VVS.   Therefore the torpedo was of Russian origin. 

 There are on the site I linked too of the Torpedo next to an A-20, so you could get a good idea of size of torpedo.  Or look up Russian torpedo's, ...one of the first hits i got is this...
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_Main.htm

this is more relevant
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_WWII.htm

has sizes and diameters. 

A build of a A-20 VVS torpedo bomber used one of a Japanese plane, but i don't think it would be too hard to make one from a piece of the correct size tube .  This build here in fact
http://hsfeatures.com/features04/a20gcl_1.htm

Quote
The A-20G was a good anti-shipping platform, stable with lots of firepower forward. It also proved to be a capable torpedo bomber. Because of the size of the Soviet torpedoes they would not fit in the bomb bay, so two locally manufactured bomb racks were fitted, one on either side of the fuselage. These racks could also carry large armor piercing bombs. Due to the weight of the torpedo, typically only one was carried. To compensate for the decrease in range brought about by the size of the torpedo, the Soviets put additional fuel tanks in the bomb bay and sealed the doors.

This model depicts this as well as an additional field modification which created a navigation position aft of the gun turret. It was not a successful and some A-20Gs eventually had the guns removed and glazing inserted in the nose, similar to the A-20J, to improve navigation.

the navigators position aft of rear turret would explain the astrodome and windows!

link to ebooke  http://ebookee.org/Camouflage-amp-Markings...945_344801.html

old but very good monograph on A-20 camo.  Long out of print. 
it has this on medium green blotching, and supplies to VVS.



so the plane may well have, bearing the above in mind, the factory pic does appear to show green blotches on the fin.

Finally, the picture Konstantin posted  shows the addition of a star to the underside of the port wing.  This would not have a painted out white circle under it.

 I do not know if the VVS painted out the starboard upperwing star, or added another upperwing star.  As most VVS aircraft do not have upperwing stars  I would guess it was painted out. 

The white on the underwing star could have been painted out with AMT-11 or AMT-12 as well, but i would go for AMT-4 green.   


cheers
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 02:45:24 PM »

Hi Francis,  Smiley

Torpedo installation from bellabs website:



You are looking for 450mm 45-36 torpedoIn 1:48 scale it is 9.4mm x 118.8mm

In Russian literature (but from my memory) these torpedo-bomber Bostons were described as being modified in Soviet Union.  Modifications included:
?   Torpedo racks (for Soviet, not lend-lease, torpedoes)
?   Navigator/bombardier cockpit behind the rear turret
?   Modified nose armament (2 X UB machine guns)


The torpedo racks (again from memory) should be on both sides.  Usually only one was used.  Both racks were used for very short range mission or to carry two practice torpedoes.

Quote
Finally, and worth a new thread(later), why the red stars on white circles? these are US factory applied, and seen on B-25's, A-20, P-39, P-63. Others?

A though occurred, these planes were all delivered on the Alaska-Siberia route, perhaps these are deliberate High-vis markings, remember the US Brits and Australians all removed all trace of RED from their pacific area markings, maybe this was to avoid friendly fire incidents during transit, they wold have to have flown over Canada as well.

Troy, that makes sense!  The story how Soviets requested red stars outlined in white, and Americans (Joe Buchanov, aka Joe the Painter) misinterpreted that with red stars on white disks must be a myth/urban legend!  Cheesy

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2011, 02:46:18 PM »

Quote from: Graham Boak,Feb 10 2011, 08:30 PM
The Russians used the circular structure, the US used a boxtail, the British used a Monoplane Air Tail, the Germans, Italians and Japanese (I think) something akin to the British solution.

The reason was the same.  Without such a tail the torpedo can only be dropped safely at very low altitudes and speeds - ideal for Swordfish perhaps but highly vulnerable.  The extension kept the torpedo stable when dropped from greater heights (still low!) and higher speeds, and usually broke off on hitting the water.  It was therefore capable of being used by faster and larger aircraft, with reduced time as target!

The torpedo is certainly Russian: the US torpedo was much shorter and fatter.
Thanks Graham,

On the attached drawing, torpedoes are labeled as follows:

Torpedo with cylindrical stabilizer is:
Aviation high-level torpedo 45-36AV-A

Torpedo without stabilizer is:
Aviation low-level torpedo 45-36AN


Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2011, 02:46:51 PM »

Quote from: marluc,Feb 10 2011, 08:17 PM
Quote from: Troy Smith,Feb 10 2011, 05:29 PM
I have never seen a VVS A-20 with painted over nose glazing. later the converted gun nose A-20 for a navigator/bomb aimer.    This plane has the standard gun nose.
I?ve been looking closely at the pictures and,in my humble opinion,"yellow 14" has the converted glazed nose but painted all over or with the windows replaced by metal sheets.The patches on the nose of "yellow 14" that look like wear,match the exact places of the small windows in the soviet converted nose,I?ve made a comparison with the first picture of the Boston/Havoc in this thread.
Greetings.

Martin
Hi Martin

I think you're wrong. Here's is my reasoning.

Below is a factory fresh A-20.  Note the panels on what is definitely a gun nose.


compare


logic dictates the reason why it matches VVS glazing is that these are they replaced removable access panels with glazing...
the VVS was pragmatic in it's approach, why make work?

A quick scroll through the camo monograph I linked too, these are the gun nose access panels.   Make conversion of the gun nose easier though Smiley (I'm thinking model terms as well)

finally this plane has a navigator's position installed in rear fuselage, so no need for the nose conversion.

Finally I'd think this more likely 'red 14' , the serial is definitely yellow, the number is much darker,  more closely resembles the red in the stars, and
the 3 specified marking colours were white, silver and red.   
White and silver show up lighter. 

And thanks to Konstantin, for the great information on the torpedo's, all we need now are better  details of the conversions inside of the nose and rear fuselage.
I have pic somewhere of the nose mounted bombsight.

cheers
T

EDIT  just looked at the picture page again, me not paying attention!

While this plane may not be the same plane, it's from the same set of pictures of the same unit.  That's a gun nose.
Note the officers are the same men, and that the prop blade is at the same angle.  I would think it's a high probability that it's the same plane, as there is one for sure, and another that is probable.  Think about it photographically, as a sequence.


this is earlier in the sequence, as the engine cover is still on.




great pics.  What a treat.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2011, 02:47:24 PM »

torpedo rack:

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2011, 02:48:17 PM »

navigator/bombardier's cockpit in rear fuselage in Soviet night fighter A-20G-1:



Original colours (?):



Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2011, 02:49:05 PM »

Quote
navigator/bombardier's cockpit in rear fuselage in Soviet night fighter A-20G-1:

VERY USEFUL!




Quote
Original colours (?):


great great find, thanks for posting.
Quote
original colours?
yes, that is very good  representation of the Olive Drab (a brown green)  with medium green patches!! as described here



cheers
Troy
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