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Questions on Boston (recovered topic)
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Author Topic: Questions on Boston (recovered topic)  (Read 38483 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2011, 02:49:48 PM »

Quote
Great picture of pre-delivery A-20G's, Konstantin!  If only the Soviets took such nice colour photographs.  But then, I guess they had other things to worry about than creating pictures for the benefit of modellers 60, 70 years down the line. 

not to mention strict security and rarity of colour film in the USSR!


Quote
I've read that the Soviets painted out the white circles the red stars were on because they didn't like having a giant "bullseye" painted on their 'planes.

Yes, they did. 
Legend has it they thought the Americans screwed up their request for white outline red stars.

I don't believe this, why? The white circle/red star combo was the 2nd type of marking on US Lend-lease, the first being  standard US insignia, painted over by the US or the VVS (I don't know who by)

So why the red stars on white circles?
These are US factory applied, and seen on B-25's, A-20, P-39, P-47 and maybe others, note all from different manufacturers's (North American, Douglas, Bell, Republic)

A thought occurred to me, these planes were all delivered on the Alaska-Siberia (ALSIB) route, perhaps these are deliberate High-visibility  markings, remember the US British and Australians all removed all trace of RED from their pacific area markings, maybe this was to avoid friendly fire incidents during transit, they would fly long distances inside the USA as well as have flown over Canada to get to Alsaka. 
(and later how the British Pacific fleet 'Americanized' their markings, our American friends have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later, then and now!)

Possibly to make it clear in Soviet air space as well? The Air supply route being a new development then.  (see below)
 
I postulated this idea  earlier in this thread, Konstantin thinks it's a good idea.
Quote
that makes sense! The story how Soviets requested red stars outlined in white, and Americans (Joe Buchanov, aka Joe the Painter) misinterpreted that with red stars on white disks must be a myth/urban legend!

Bear in mind we also have 50 years of cold war propaganda in between this as well, so of course the Russians are happy for the Americans to look silly by painting on the 'wrong' insignia.


To sum up
U.S. supplied lend-lease has 3 marking phases,

First  - U.S insignia painted over.  Like this. a B-25 C


second - Red Star/White Circle high vis - like this a B-25D-30, in Alaska in transit.


third - Red Star with white outline, like the B-25J's and P-63s, which are later supplies.   By this time ALSIB was established, and planes were supplied as specified.
Like this B-25J


Note the successive models, and the markings applied.   This is a theory, but makes more sense than a painter mistake.  One plant, yes, four? doubt it.   
I can also see VVS units receiving planes marked like thinking it was stupid, but without the reason being explained....
I'm to try to contact Dana Bell about this, he'd be the man who would know.

Quote
Initially the main Lend-lease route was by ship to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk in northern Russia. In 1942 two other supply routes were opened: a southern route via Iran (where the aircraft are assembled and flown into the southern part of the Soviet Union), and above all the ALSIB (Alaska-Siberia) route which was opened on 29 September 1942. The aircraft were flown by American crews to Fairbanks, Alaska, where they were handed over to a Soviet commission headed by Col. M.G.Machin, and ferried to Krasnoyarsk in Siberia by specially selected Soviet pilots of 1 PAD (ferry aviation divi?sion) commanded by Arctic veteran-pilot Col. I.P.Mazuruk (HSU 27.6.1937).

1 PAD consisted of five ferry regiments (PAP), each of which was responsible for a certain part of the route:

-       1 PAP - Fairbanks-Uelkal (1.500 km),
-       2 PAP - Uelkal-Seimchan (1.450 km),
-       3 PAP - Seichan-Yakutsk (1.167 kin),
-       4 PAP - Yakutsk-Kirensk (1.331 km),
-       5 PAP - Kirensk-Krasnoyarsk (965 km).

In Krasnoyarsk "ordinary" pilots took over, flying the newly arrived aircraft westwards via Omsk, Sverdlovsk and Kazan to Moscow for further distribution to frontline units. Yakutsk?-based 8 TAP was responsible for returning the ALSIB-ferry crews to Fairbanks.

The ALSIB route turned out to be very successful and fast. Regardless of the primitive sub-zero conditions and extremely long distances over the deserted areas losses in transit were surprisingly small: of 8.058 aircraft delivered at US factories 74 were lost in USA, 58 lost in Canada and Alaska, and on the Siberian leg 42 aircraft crashed fatally.
from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/arti..._deliveries.htm

all pics and quotes under "fair use"


Quote
Also, you're saying that the Gneis-equipped A-20's were real nightfighters?  Same as the Gneis-equipped Pe-2's?  ("Gneis" was a radar fitted to a few Soviet aircraft - this is for other people's benefit as I'm sure Konstantin knows about this.)

pics of a 4 cannon radar equipped Boston are in Red Stars 4. 

cheers
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2011, 02:50:45 PM »

Except I'm wrong!!

After a search on Hyperscale for Dana Bell i found an email for him, wrote and got a reply in 20 minutes (this is when you love email!)
[edit :- Dana Bell is an authority on US colors,  see http://www.amazon.com/Dana-Bell/e/B001JRWO...t_athr_dp_pel_1 and contributing on Hyperscale]

what he says is this 

Quote
Right now, I can't get to my records.
 
If I could, I'd quote you the exact language and the date of the white-disc order.  The mistake didn't come fromJoe the painter, but rather from someone in the Lend-Lease commission - either someone American or someone Soviet.  It appears to be a translation error, but US manuafacturers were instructed to put the red star on a white disc - period.
 
I suspect that "background" or "border" was somehow translated into background disc.  No drawings were provided.
 
If you try back late in the summer, I should be dug out and able to get the documents.  'Till then, I hope this helps!
 
Cheers,
 
Dana

It does at least explain why this was done by several manufacturer's!

thanks to Dana.    I'll pass on the exact wording when it comes through.

T



 "
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2011, 02:52:42 PM »

Quote from: spokito,Feb 17 2011, 05:49 PM
Quote from: Graham Boak,Feb 16 2011, 01:27 PM
I think it would be a bit overloaded with a torpedo and four cannon plus ammunition.
totaly agree with that. this is the more probable hypothese.
if torpedo no cannons ! so i'll didn't put them on my model

only some early A-20 G had 4 x 20mm cannon.   

These A-20 G-35 had 6 x 0.50 cal MG in the nose.

top 2 visible here


bottom 2 visible here


Presume the full complement of 6 were fitted.

like this, bottom two obscured.


They were shipping strike aircraft, 6 x.50 cal would be a valuable addition once the torpedo had been launched.   

the G's with the converted nose still mounted 2 x .50, as seen here.


HTH
T
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2011, 02:53:32 PM »

Quote from: Learstang,Feb 18 2011, 04:52 PM
Quote from: spokito,Feb 18 2011, 07:09 AM
Quote from: Learstang,Feb 17 2011, 05:58 PM
Francis, you need to show us some pictures of your work!  I know I'd be interested.

Regards,

Jason
hello jason,

first of all, i'm not a "top" modeler. i just do what i can for my own pleasure.
but for fun,i 'm doing a "step by step" in the french forum fighters .
here
Well, I'm hardly a top modeller either.  To be honest, Francis, some times the top modellers' work can be a bit intimidating as I think there's no way I can match their work.  I took at look at that French site where you're posting the build and it looks like it's coming along nicely.  At the very least, you should post the end result when you're finished.

Regards,

Jason
hello jason, and others ...
dont worry you'll be the first to see here in swp forum Wink

i have somme interrogations about colors .
first about the torpedo: is it chrome/silver or more gun metal ? probably beetwin that ?

and second, about the color sheme of that famous photo of the "torpedo 14" and the bloche on the right side of the tail.
do you think the sheme is standard with only this originality or more ?
for me the standard is that one

what's your opinion about this ?
thanks .
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-spokito-
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 09:42:31 AM »

hello guys,
first of all, thank you massimo to have move this post from the old forum Wink
some pictures for you !so, this torpedo boston is on the way !




the bilding is temporary stopped because i'm looking to find ? solution for the tail numbers .

note that i had forgotten the green rondels with the underside wings red stars . i had to repair it. (same color than fuselage one's ? i'm not sure...)

and note that parts on wings and tail (i dont know how it's called in english)

what do you think about this color ? looks like the roudel of the underside wing red star ?

« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 07:36:20 AM by -spokito- » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2011, 04:26:25 PM »

Hi Francis,
nice model, really.
About the trim tabs, I suppose that they should be red. But the color of the photo looks darker than the one of the stars. I suppose it's some darker shade of red. The MiG-3 pieces in Veesiveehma shows dark red trim tabs and bort number.
Regards
Massimo
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-spokito-
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2011, 05:08:08 PM »

hello massimo
thanks for your reply.
trim tabs ! i'am happy , i learned a new english word today..great !
i'd just see the famous mig-3 photo, perhaps it's red but i choose the red for the "14" and the saturation is mutch darker than that. do you think ti can be dark grey or dark brown ?
do you know why on some planes thats pices are painted with another color ? could it be spare parts ? canibalisation ?
and what do you think about the color of the roudel of the underside wing ? looks similar to the red of the star but its probably wrong. same green than fuselage roundel ?
regards
francis
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2011, 09:16:36 PM »

Hi Francis, the roundel under the wing looks... a pentagon. I suppose that it's the remain of a US mark, dark blue, partially overpainted with undersurface color.
I think that the trim tab is dark red, not brown or grey. They are delicate pieces, so they paint them with bright colors to avoid that someone damages them on the ground. A supposed color photo shows them darker, but in a shade of olive drab. I suppose that the photo was colorized, so it doesn't prove anything.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 12:20:33 AM »

Whatever colour the overpainted roundels were, it's looking good, Francis!

Regards,

Jason
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-spokito-
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 07:58:14 AM »

Hi Francis, the roundel under the wing looks... a pentagon. I suppose that it's the remain of a US mark, dark blue, partially overpainted with undersurface color.
I think that the trim tab is dark red, not brown or grey. They are delicate pieces, so they paint them with bright colors to avoid that someone damages them on the ground. A supposed color photo shows them darker, but in a shade of olive drab. I suppose that the photo was colorized, so it doesn't prove anything.
Regards
Massimo


dark blue...of course ! ...shame on me... Shocked
thanks Wink

Whatever colour the overpainted roundels were, it's looking good, Francis!

Regards,

Jason

hello learstang,
thank you . i'm just tring to make it the more "historical" possible. and this forum is great and help me a lot to improve my models
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Bonehammer
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »

Tally Ho has an interesting sheet for VVS Bostons in 1/48, #48047, reviewed here

Re the turret, I don't remember the name (TUR-7?) but it was used on later versions of the Tupolev SB. It was fitted also to some "emergency bombers" Li-2 and possibly to the Su-2 attack plane.
Zvezda announced an Su-2 in 1/48 which may or may not have the right turret for the Boston. The other option is getting hold of MPM's old vacuform kit of the SB (the turret is an optional piece, most SBs had a sliding hood)

EDIT: Found it, the turret is an MV-3 and was retrofitted to nearly everything during the war... googling "турель мв-3" returns a lot of pictures. Might be a suggestion for the aftermarket...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:04:40 AM by Bonehammer » Logged

I'm too lazy to even fi
-spokito-
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 12:09:07 PM »

Tally Ho has an interesting sheet for VVS Bostons in 1/48, #48047, reviewed here

Re the turret, I don't remember the name (TUR-7?) but it was used on later versions of the Tupolev SB. It was fitted also to some "emergency bombers" Li-2 and possibly to the Su-2 attack plane.
Zvezda announced an Su-2 in 1/48 which may or may not have the right turret for the Boston. The other option is getting hold of MPM's old vacuform kit of the SB (the turret is an optional piece, most SBs had a sliding hood)

EDIT: Found it, the turret is an MV-3 and was retrofitted to nearly everything during the war... googling "турель мв-3" returns a lot of pictures. Might be a suggestion for the aftermarket...

thank you bonehammer, it's good to know that for the next one  Cheesy
may be one day.... now it's to late for this one, it's nearly finished yet
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 10:50:05 PM »

Has everyone forgotten the long thread on the Invision site?
http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplanes/index.php?showtopic=66&st=0

anyway, two main points here

Turret.

First, the turret fitted to the A-20 G-35-DO №14 (43-10052)

The turret in the picture is clearly the Martin type fitted in the US. The only Bostons fitted with soviet Turrets were the earlier A-20C models which were not fitted with turrets, the VVS was not happy with the armament, so they fitted Russian turrets.

The A-20G was fitted with a Martin turret, so no reason to fit a new one. The VVS did not replace equipment that worked well.
Note, the Martin turret was made from pieces of perspex glued together. These give the appearance of painted panel lines, but are not, they are translucent white.



Underwing stars

Quote
I suppose that it's the remain of a US mark, dark blue, partially overpainted with undersurface color.

no US blue to overpaint!  These were painted at the factory in the USA with the white circle/red star marking.




but not under port wing


white background star under starboard wing



Finally, the picture Konstantin posted shows the VVS added of a star to the underside of the port wing. This would not have a painted out white circle under it.

I do not know if the VVS painted out the starboard upperwing star, or added another upperwing star. As most VVS aircraft do not have upperwing stars I would guess it was painted out.

The white on the starboard underwing star could have been painted out with AMT-11 or AMT-12 as well, but i would go for AMT-4 green.


so add painted out circle under starboard wing, and painted out circle on upper port wing.

Very nice work on the Boston Francis!

cheers
T
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-spokito-
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2011, 02:17:15 PM »

hello troy,

thank you to correct my error. so i need to do it again  Grin
if i understand correctely, the underside wing roudels are same color that fuselage one ?
that means that soviets repaint the white of the roundel in a green. probably amt-4.

do i understand well troy ?
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2011, 06:48:43 PM »

hello troy,

thank you to correct my error. so i need to do it again  Grin
if i understand correctely, the underside wing roudels are same color that fuselage one ?
that means that soviets repaint the white of the roundel in a green. probably amt-4.

do i understand well troy ?


yes, you understand well.   The underside white circle could be ed out with AMT4 green, or it could be one of the AMT 11 or 12.  Your choice really. 

If it helps, the Finnish Airacobra seems to be green.  Note the VVS added star border.



http://z15.invisionfree.com/72nd_Aircraft/index.php?showtopic=306

cheers
T
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