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Author Topic: Prewar colors of Soviet and Spanish planes.  (Read 34392 times)
dragonlanceHR
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2011, 08:54:17 AM »

Hi all, I was thinking of factory finishes.

On the previous page, that underside piece of metal, are we seeing the "gray-blue aviolak" repainted with Spanish light blue or AII blue??
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xan
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2011, 11:05:27 AM »

Hello Maximo,
in your web site you give two different colours.



I know that you work with Humbrol references, but do ypu think that H323 of Gunze (no carresponding in humbrol) , wich is find for spanish blue (for spanish modelers) would be find too for AII blue ? (it seems to me very light)





sorry Anatoliy if we get quite far from your beautifull decals  Wink

Xan
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 05:20:58 PM by xan » Logged

xan
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2011, 05:39:59 PM »

Me and Konstantine received an answer from David;
I put it in spanih and translate with google:

El trozo de tela del natacha proviene de un retal hecho por uno de sus tripulantes a un avion derribado/ accidentado. lo conserv?.. supongo dentro de un libro y finalmente lo dio a ADAR, el trozo de piel del mosca es un detalle de mi colega Isaac Montoya, que lleva trabajando el tema de los restos de los aviones accidentados durante a?os y tiene casi ultimado un trabajo " exahustivo" sobre cada uno de los incidentes/ accidentes por el estudiados. pareceran conclusiones fundamentadas francamente sorprendentes por lo que el me ha contado. apareceran tambien conclusiones sobre los colores de los aviones, tanto moscas, como chatos,katiuskas etc.. con mas de una sorpresilla, pues no todas las escuadrillas tenian los mismos colores..( bueno esto hay que definirlo bien, pero ya lo har? ?l)
por mi parte puedo volvera postear las fotografias que en su dia hicimos.. o bien si alguien tiene el enlace a el post sobre los skins.. etc.

Del gumman si que tengo fotografiada alguna cosa.. como refuerzos de aluminio interior con color de cromato de zinc verde y un material que me pas? Eloy, en el que hay unas poleas de reenvio de los cables de mando que son en color cromato del amarillo, y despues un trozo recuperado muy peque?o de chapa de aluminio con el color marron del fuselaje.

basicamente son colores " indigenas" hechos en el lugar. el de los delfin pintados en VIC ( por favor ya sin H final) y los chatos, los fabricados en espa?a o revisados, con color verde de las fuerzas aereas y azul o "purpurina" por debajo. los rusos recien llegados, siempre purupirna por debajo como regla y un verde distinto al de "aqu?".

pero esto siempre es un tema complicado.. porque es lo mismo el color de un natacha en primavera de 1937 que en marzo de 1939.. creo que no?
es lo miso el color de un katiuska montado en albacete en noviembre de 1936 que el de un taller movil pintado en octubre de 1938. pues tampoco... por no hablar de los dragon rapide de LApe.. de los fokker. del fulgur.. etc..

hay que seguir practicamente avion a avion para establecer la vida de cada uno.. pero tambien podemos hacer reglas generales..

epocas en la que los aviones estan camulflados... epocas que no.. o en que momento vuelven a estar camuflados con manchas.... etc..

en fin, rollo para la que semana santa no aburra mucho.

The piece of fabric from a remnant natacha made by one of his crew on a plane shot down / crashed. kept it .. I guess in a book and finally gave ADAR, the piece of skin from the Mosca is a gift of my colleague Isaac Montoya, who has been working on the issue of the remains of aircraft accidents over the years and has nearly finishted a complited work  on each of the accidents for the study. reasoned conclusions even seem downright amazing for what he has told me. findings also appear on the colors of the aircraft, both flies, as flat, rain boots etc. .. with more than a little surprise, since not all squadrons had the same colors .. (well this should be well defined, but he will do it)
For my part I can post the pictures will return in his day did .. or if anyone has a link to the post on the skins .. etc.

 I do have pics of the Grumman.. as internal aluminum reinforcements with zinc chromate color green and I went Eloy material in which there are sheaves of control cables that are color yellow chromate, and then a very small piece of metal recovered aluminum with brown color of the fuselage.

colors are basically "indigenous" facts on the ground. that of the dolphin painted VIC (please and without H final) and chatos I-15, manufactured in Spain or revised, with green color and blue air forces or "glitter" below. newcomers Russians provided below purupirna rule and green as opposed to "here."

but this is always a complicated issue .. it is the same color of a natacha in spring 1937 than in March 1939 .. I think not?
miso is the color of a mounted Katyusha albacete in November 1936 that painted a mobile workshop in October 1938. it either ... not to mention the dragon rapide of Lape .. the fokker. the fulgur .. etc. ..

We have to follow almost plane to plane to establish the life of each one .. but also can make general rules ..

seasons in which the planes are camulflados ... times than not .. or that time again to be camouflaged with patches .... etc. ..

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »

Hi Xan,
this collection of chips is made utilizing the scans of the AKAN catalogue found on the forum, but when I received the chips painted on paper by John I saw that they are slightly different, and AKAN AII green is more similar to h65 than it appeared on this image. More recently, I've published on the forum the result of a direct comparison between Akan acrilics and Humbrol  at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=783.105 and the result is slightly different from the previous one.
The Spanish light blue digital chip was taken from the Spanish forum, but now that I see the photo of the wreck it gives the idea to be a bit darker. Unfortunately, a good comparison requires two painted chips taken with the same scan or photo, with the same inclination and under the same light. 
I'll have to correct the first work for AII blue, but I haven't the original chip for the Spanish piece of I-16. It would be good to have it photographed side by side to a page of a FS-595 catalogue or to chips of Humbrol and other similar paints.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 07:15:40 AM »

Quote
el de los delfin pintados en VIC ( por favor ya sin H final) y los chatos, los fabricados en espa?a o revisados, con color verde de las fuerzas aereas y azul o "purpurina" por debajo. los rusos recien llegados, siempre purupirna por debajo como regla y un verde distinto al de "aqu?".
Hi Xan,
here is written that I-15s could have the undersurfaces painted with aluminium (I suppose that purpurina/glitter means this), probably the original Russian color of 1938, or light blue.
Here it's clear what is a chato, but what is a delfin, and what is VIC?
Regards
Massimo
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dragonlanceHR
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 09:46:10 AM »

Dolphin would be Grumman GE-23 biplane.

The VIC translation should be "in VIC" or "at VIC", denoting facility or camo scheme?!?

As to aluminium-sliver undersides, Maslov in the latest I-16 book (Eksmo) states:

In the summer of 1937 by joint decisions of the representatives of the Air Force, and SUAI VIAM (All-Union Institute of Aviation Materials) planes with monocoque fuselages decided to paint a completely matte silver color. Indeed, such an I-16 later met, but have not received significant proliferation. Early in 1938 the factories were sent new instruction, whereby the upper surfaces of wings, fuselage and tail should be painted a khaki color (dark green), and the lower surface - the "silver-aluminum (dull) color."
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xan
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 10:42:42 AM »

Helo Massimo and dragon

the delfin is a grumman CCF G-23:


http://www.adar.es/colaboracionesguerra.htm

Vic is a town in catalunya

purpurina is surely aluminium colour (I will ask him)

Xan
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xan
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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2011, 03:33:25 PM »

David confirms me the first I-15 in spain were aluminium in lower surfaces.
Better, he told me he asked to be a new menber of this forum to participate to our discution, great isn't it?

Xan
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 04:58:39 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2011, 04:00:44 PM »

Quote
Insert Quote
David confirms me the first I-15 in spain were aluminium.
Better, he told me he asked to be a new menber of this forum to participate to our discution, great isn't it?

Xan
Hi Xan and Dragonlance,
thank you for your answers. David will be welcome here.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 07:50:59 PM »

Hola,  Smiley

Conclusions from this tread and David?s comments could be summarized as follows:

?   Most Soviet fighters arrived in Spain painted in mid-1930es colours:
            o    Darker Protective (green) on upper surfaces
            o    Light blue or silver on undersides.
?   AII varnishes were rare; possibly some 1938 I-16s and I-15bis (late 1938)
?   All republican planes were repainted, some several times
?   Most, probably all, paints used by the Republicans were ?local?, i.e. Spanish.
 
Saludos,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 11:01:00 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
interesting. So, aluminium could be combined with the early protective, not only with AII green.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 08:47:09 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I have still some doubts:
was the color of RZ Russian or Spanish?
The chip of early protective green looks more green that the olivish shade proposed by Akan, similar to RFC green or to fresh Olive drab.
Again, it would be good to have the exhibits photographed side by side to some page of a FS catalogue or other reproductable chips. Are you in contact with the owner?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 07:55:02 PM »

So, aluminium could be combined with the early protective, not only with AII green.

David Gesali mentioned silver undersides...  Montoya has never seen silver during his research.  So, this is something that should be confirmed.
There was a Soviet silver nitro paint in mid 1930es, before AII Al. Its name was NAK.  It was used on fabric and wooden parts of MBR-2 flying boats.  I have no information about its use on I-15s.

was the color of RZ Russian or Spanish?
The chip of early protective green looks more green that the olivish shade proposed by Akan, similar to RFC green or to fresh Olive drab.
Again, it would be good to have the exhibits photographed side by side to some page of a FS catalogue or other reproductable chips. Are you in contact with the owner?

I haven't seen RZ fabric piece.  I hoped David would post its photo.
In Akanihin's opinion, Protective paint on Montoya's I-16 fabric piece is extremely deteriorated.  His own "Early Protective" model paint is based on a TB-3 fragment he got from Finland.  Note that we are comparing piece of fabric and piece of metal, ie two paints (nitro paint and oil paint), none of them well preserved.

Regards,
KL 
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learstang
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »

What about the green preserved on the rudder of the Le Bourget I-153 undergoing restoration?  There is a picture on that thread (Polikarpov I-153 restoration), and considering that it was probably painted over by the Germans in WWII, and has remained under that paint since then, it could be considered as "fresh" as possible.  It is definitely an olive green, and a fairly bright one at that.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2011, 09:16:31 PM »

Green found on Le Bourget I-153 rudder (under 1960es French paint) is AII Z (AII Green in English).  It's well preserved and corresponds to the specimen in Orlov's collection and to the chip in "Albom nakrasok".

We are talking here about the "Early Protective" that was in use before AII Green, or before 1938.  "Early Protective" was darker then AII Green.
"Early Protective" is poorly documented - few small (questionable?) fragments, obviously its chip wasn't included in "Albom nakrasok".

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 09:28:30 PM by KL » Logged
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