Prewar colors of Soviet and Spanish planes.

[mholly]

4BO was NOT A PAINT but color, in other words a color etalon according to which the actual paint was to be made-namely AIIz and later AMT-4.

And the color was simply called "protective". It can be the original shade, it can be of 3B shade and at last 4BO shade, later renamed AII Green.

?    4BO was a paint!  A real material thing in pales and it was painted or sprayed on tanks, artillery and helmets.  It was produced from late 1938 to 1952.  It was a "brand name" for ubiquitous soviet olive green paint.

As Akanihin explains in his last blog (well known facts) its composition was standardized and its colour did not vary as many modelers want to belive.
   

Cheers,
KL

I should have made myself clear from the beginning i.e. that I was talking about aviation lacquers only! From that standpoint I maintain that there was no 4BO PAINT to be used in the aviation. 4BO etalon of paint used elsewhere (tanks etc.) with which I agree was taken to create aviation lacquers AIIz and AMT-4.
Or am I confused too?
Cheers,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi

Don't worry, some Russian modelers on scalemodels.ru remained confused that's why M.Orlov "stepped in" and clarified the matter.
Hope this helps.

Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo

[mholly]

Hi

Don't worry, some Russian modelers on scalemodels.ru remained confused that's why M.Orlov "stepped in" and clarified the matter.
Hope this helps.

Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo

I'm afraid I don't have time to search pages and pages on that topic. Besides he did NOT say 4BO, AII and AMT-4 were identical. He said that 4BO was a COLOR (color sample/swatch) according to which AIIz and AMT-4 were made.
Cheers,
Mario

[KL]

Hi Mario, 
Chronology will help to explain relationship between all those PAINTS:

3B was made between 1933 and 1939.  Discontinued because it was "decodable" (when viewed against vegetation through certain filters or on some types of photo material).

AII Z was made from mid-1937 to mid 1941.  Discontinued because it was "decodable" and glossy.

4BO was made from late 1938 to 1952.  First "non decodable" paint and first bright olive green paint!

AMT-4 was made from mid 1941.  It was a nitro aviation lacquer but designed to have properties similar to 4BO - same olive green colour and same spectral properties (it was "non-decodable"). Plus, it was matt.  It replaced AII Z.

hope this helps.

Cheers, KL

[dragonlanceHR]

Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?

Hi Massimo,

I'll try to locate the info, IIRC it was in the M-Hobby articles, not the Aviakolektsia book. However, I'm now browsing the Aviakolektsia 12/2007 VSS Camouflage and markings up to 1940 and there is a paragraph that SB bombers were repainted in "protective color of the 4BO standard".

Ill post later today.

Vedran

[Massimo Tessitori]

Thank you Vedran.
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I've made a division in categories for pre-gpw planes. Please, have a look and comment before I start to move the existing topics.
Regards
Massimo

[mholly]

Could you give the link where Orlov states that 4BO AII, green and AMT-4 were identical, please?
Regards
Massimo

OK Massimo, I WAS able to find it. ABC=M.Orlov

ABC
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Первоначально, 4БО - обозначение ЦВЕТА, а НЕ КРАСКИ. Для наземной техники под этим обозначением называли и краску. ЦВЕТ 4БО использовался и в авиации. Эмали АМТ-4 и А-24 имели цвет практически 4БО. При их разработке, собственно и старались получить 4БО.
Вот и все.
 
Posted Nov 20,2009 3:34pm
Firstly, 4BO is the code for COLOR and NOT THE PAINT. Paint used for vehicles carried the same code. COLOR 4BO was used in the aviation. AMT-4 and A-24 enamels had in fact color 4BO. During their production they strived to achieve color 4BO. That's all.

And also

ABC
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АIIЗ - не имеет ничего общего с 4БО. АIIЗ - темнее.
Разработка 4БО началась в 1940 году, может быть в 1939-м, не раньше. В авиации цвет стал применяться с 1941- го (АМТ-4). На танках и артиллрии - не знаю, мне не интересно.
Судить о цвете по цветным фотографиям и экранным изображениям - дело неблагодарное, легко можно ошибиться.
 
Posted Nov 21, 2009 12:50pm
AIIz-has nothing in common with 4BO. AIIz is darker.
They started to work on 4BO in 1940, possibly 1939 but not sooner. In the aviation they started to use this color from 1941 (AMT-4). How it was aplied on tanks and artillery-I don't know, I'm not interested in that. 

So I need to correct myself, 4BO did NOT correspond to BOTH, only AMT-4/A-24.
Link to the whole debate is here
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17744&highlight=abc
and was was actually initiated by our own KL (Konstantin).
Cheers,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitori]

Thank you Mario.
Massimo

[xan]

Hi,
perhaps this post could be put in the colours, sheme and research section?

so if I understood,
3B is a colour as 4Bo;
ATM-4 et A24 paints are in the 4B0 colour...

what paint is in 3B colour?
what colours is the AIIz paint?

I'm interesting for I-16 paints...according to Hornat, the very first camouflage were two tons of green; AIIz (wich he called A19f) and a darker green one (he doesn't give any name):; I think I remenber Pilawskii spoke about a AII dark green (?)

1) Do you agree the I-16 could be peinted with two greens (as perhaps early yak-1 and Mig-3) ?
2) could it be AII with 3B colour ? if not what was the dark green ?
3) or do you think only AMT-4 and AMT-6 have been two colours paint since 1941, wich it means that in all W&B pics, the two colours sheme would be black and green an d never two greens ?

Xan

 
 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Xan,
I prefer not to make differeces between paint and color,it is very confusing.
Yesterday Akanihin wrote to me that 4BO and AMT-4 are not exactly the same. He promised to write more on this.

About green/green camouflage of I-16 and other types: nothing is impossible, but I would go with black except if  otherwise proven. Eventually, it could be a faded and thin layer of black over green giving the idea of black green.
Regards
Massimo

[xan]

All right massimo,
so if the sheme are in green and black paint,would it mean that it had to be:
1) AIIZ green with AMT6 black
2) or the two paint sheme I-16 would have been repeinted in AMT-4/AMT-6 ?

Xan

[mholly]

Hi Massimo,

I prefer not to make differeces between paint and color,it is very confusing.

I beg to differ, we should make that difference otherwise the confusion will continue.
Reason being that, as you know, VVS camo system is rather vague in the COLOR description of any particular camo PAINT
for instance AIIz is protective (zashchitnyi, some translate that z as "zelyonyi"=green) but we know it was green. Of course modelers MUST know what shade of green. Orlov is telling us "around FS 34095" (in his initial work) or "darker than AMT-4" which was in 4BO COLOR (Orlov said earlier around FS 34102).

Yesterday Akanihin wrote to me that 4BO and AMT-4 are not exactly the same. He promised to write more on this.

Would you be so kind and forward that information to me? Ideally in Russian.
Cheers,
Mario

[mholly]

Hi Xan,

3B is a colour as 4Bo

no

ATM-4 et A24 paints are in the 4B0 colour...

yes

what paint is in 3B colour?

3B paint

what colours is the AIIz paint?

darker than AMT-4 which was made according to 4BO etalon i.e. roughly around FS34102

I'm interesting for I-16 paints...according to Hornat, the very first camouflage were two tons of green; AIIz (wich he called A19f) and a darker green one (he doesn't give any name):;

there was NO 2-green camo in VVS system, of course exceptions, not official though, could have happened. AIIz and and A19f are two different both paints and colors, Hornat confused the things. A-19f was alkyd enamel formulated for all metal airplanes i.e. definitely not for I-16! Besides it was lighter and grayer in COLOR than AIIz.

I think I remenber Pilawskii spoke about a AII dark green (?)

you better forget about this guy, for your own good.

1) Do you agree the I-16 could be peinted with two greens (as perhaps early yak-1 and Mig-3) ?

no, see above

2) could it be AII with 3B colour ? if not what was the dark green ?

no, again read above

3) or do you think only AMT-4 and AMT-6 have been two colours paint since 1941, wich it means that in all W&B pics, the two colours sheme would be black and green an d never two greens ?

yes, correct, but again, exception could have occurred but:
- they were NOT officially endorsed
- we have currently no serious proof whatsoever, I'm not even considering b&w pix.
Hope this helps.
Saludos,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Xan,

so if the sheme are in green and black paint,would it mean that it had to be:
1) AIIZ green with AMT6 black
2) or the two paint sheme I-16 would have been repeinted in AMT-4/AMT-6 ?

it's hard to say. I think AII green plus black on it.

Hi Mario

Would you be so kind and forward that information to me? Ideally in Russian.

Перечисленные цвета 4БО, АIIЗ и АМТ-4 - конечно разные. Постараюсь написать статью и сообщу вам. Не обещаю сделать это быстро...
The color 4БО, АІІЗ and AMT-4 - of course different. I'll try to write the article and I will inform you. I promise not to do it quickly...

Regards
Massimo