Il-2 Camouflage Schemes

[learstang]

That pitot tube does look like it's in the outer position, but the trailing edge looks like that of a straight-winger, and I'm still very doubtful that 37mm cannons were ever fitted to arrows.  The reason I believe this is that by the time the arrow starting entering production in fall of 1943, the 37mm cannon armament had already fallen out of favour, and I find it hard to believe that the Soviets would have fitted an armament that was being phased out to brand-new arrows.  You may be right about the pitot tube position being changed on the late straight-winged two-seaters; this is just the sort of relatively small detail change that wouldn't be mentioned prominently in references, and according to Oleg Rastrenin, the real expert on the Shturmovik, detail changes happened all the time to the IL-2.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,
it would be interesting to state if the position of the pitot probe has changed before turning to arrows, as the aerial mast has.
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Indeed, Massimo.  An interesting question - I'll have a look at my photographs to see if I can determine whether that were the case or not.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

Hi Massimo, 



Those two Il-2 were not downed in Finlad.  They were captured at Shatalovo airfield, Smolensk region



Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
thank you, there is written the date too...
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
these planes have somehing in common of strange


They are very similar, but not the very same plane.
These photos should be of mid 1943. They represent the only ones I have where it can be recognized the style of factory n.18,
with the characteristic blotch on the tail; this style was much more seen on singleseaters as this:

both black bands and outlined stars are similar, but the twoseaters seems to have much less black.
Not only, both photos show traces of painting with a lighter color on the wings and tail.
Now, is this a work made at unit level? But so coherent? And the lack of black, much beyond the 50% of the surface, doesn't suggest place for a third color since when the plane was built?
Any suggestions? Aren't there photos possibly related to those planes?
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Perhaps these aircraft were painted similarly to the strangely painted "White 24", with its apparent combination of the black/green camouflage, and a lighter colour, perhaps an early application of AMT-1?

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

... there is written the date too...

15.8.'41 could be the date when photo was taken (I can't read German).  Airfield and Il-2s were captured earlier, in July 1941.

Perhaps these aircraft were painted similarly to the strangely painted "White 24", with its apparent combination of the black/green camouflage, and a lighter colour, perhaps an early application of AMT-1?

There is a possible relationship - same time (July 1941), same place (Smolensk reg).  I also believe the lighter colour is light brown/yellowish/sand, a colour appropriate for summer: either early AMT-1 or some Army equivalent.  This lighter colour is better visible on more contrast photos:



Too bad Massimo sticks to the "Manchurian Influence" and AE-9.     Light gray doesn?t make sense.

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin and Jason,

Perhaps these aircraft were painted similarly to the strangely painted "White 24", with its apparent combination of the black/green camouflage, and a lighter colour, perhaps an early application of AMT-1?

it is likely, but I would know if this was done in factory or on the field. At present time, there are the only photos I have of two-seaters of Zavod 18, and I have to trace the pattern. Provisionally, I've traced it in black and green, but I have still some doubt because the green is more abundant than the black, and this is suspicious.

There is a possible relationship - same time (July 1941), same place (Smolensk reg).  I also believe the lighter colour is light brown/yellowish/sand, a colour appropriate for summer: either early AMT-1 or some Army equivalent.  This lighter colour is better visible on more contrast photos:

white 24... do you mean the Il-2 or the Pe-2?

Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

"White 24" was an IL-2 attached to the Black Sea Fleet, probably in 1943 (although I've seen 1942 as the date it was photographed).  It has been interpreted in a variety of different colours and schemes, although there seems to be a general consensus on the fuselage colours and scheme, which have the forward fuselage in black/green, and the wooden part of the fuselage in "light brown", black, and green.  Below are photographs of my attempt to reproduce the scheme (I'm not entirely happy even with my own interpretation and will probably redo it to some extent).

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

There is a possible relationship - same time (July 1941), same place (Smolensk reg).  I also believe the lighter colour is light brown/yellowish/sand, a colour appropriate for summer: either early AMT-1 or some Army equivalent.  This lighter colour is better visible on more contrast photos:

white 24... do you mean the Il-2 or the Pe-2?

I referred to Pe-2 "White 24", recently discussed at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1119.0



as related to the Il-2 captured in July 1941



Cheers,
KL

[KL]

For non-standard, field applied 3-colour schemes before summer 1943, i would consider Army camouflage colours:  4BO, 6K and 7K.
Army camouflage colours had been produced before 1941.  AMT-1 has been produced from 1943.

4BO


6K


7K


table with similar model paints at  http://www.platcdarm.ru/poleznaya-informatsiya/tablica-sootvetstviya-okraski-bronetankovyx-vojsk-cccr-1941

Cheers,
KL

[learstang]

Interesting colours, Konstantin.  That 7K looks a bit like AMT-1.  And that 6K looks like our old friend, AII Brown! 

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason and Konstantin,

"White 24" was an IL-2 attached to the Black Sea Fleet, probably in 1943 (although I've seen 1942 as the date it was photographed).  It has been interpreted in a variety of different colours and schemes, although there seems to be a general consensus on the fuselage colours and scheme, which have the forward fuselage in black/green, and the wooden part of the fuselage in "light brown", black, and green.  Below are photographs of my attempt to reproduce the scheme (I'm not entirely happy even with my own interpretation and will probably redo it to some extent).

To be honest, I have to say that I failed to see the rear brown band on the fuselage on avaiable photos of n.24. I see only, and vaguely, the small one on the central part.
However, should the bands traced by Viktor be found, they resembles to that of the plane red 4, a single-seater, so it should be taken in consideration that they could be faded black over green.

For non-standard, field applied 3-colour schemes before summer 1943, i would consider Army camouflage colours:  4BO, 6K and 7K.
Army camouflage colours had been produced before 1941.  AMT-1 has been produced from 1943.

Thank you for the link, however for what I knowAMT-1 was formulated in 1941, probably produced in small quantity since then and only introduced on standard templates in 1943.

Regards
Massimo

[KL]

AMT-1 was formulated in 1941, probably produced in small quantity since then and only introduced on standard templates in 1943.

I would say:  AMT-1 was formulated in 1941, small quantity produced before June 22nd, tested on LaGG-3s in Plant 21 by Chebotarevski (paint designer).
Large quantity production started in 1943, at the time when 3-colour camouflage scheme was introduced.


What is more likely to be used in field to camouflage Il-2s and Pe-2s - test batch AMT-1 or Army camouflage paints? All this during the chaotic first 2-3 weeks of the operation Barbarossa...

Cheers,
KL