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Author Topic: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43  (Read 18925 times)
xan
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« on: May 06, 2011, 11:01:34 AM »

Hello her'e a link to show you the conclusion we had trying to find references in tamiya gunze and humbrol for AMT-4, AMT-6 and AMY-7 paints.
this post is interesting know in 1939/1941 paints...
The post is in french, but with a little help from google traductor...
you will find here four menber of this forum: Apex, pascal (gretsch), spokito and I (Xan)

http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&hilit=+VVS

in English:
http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.master194.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D54267%26hilit%3D%2BVVS&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Xan
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 01:52:28 PM by xan » Logged

John Thompson
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 04:54:11 PM »

Hi Xan - that's a really interesting thread; thank you for posting the links! I attempted the same thing several times trying to find a true identification of AMT-7, but as that thread shows, there is some disagreement among the various authorities. I've almost decided that (for my own use, at least - as my friend Apex1701 suggests in the last post on page 1, we will probably never find the real answer!) Humbrol 47 is a possibility, although Hu89 is also worth considering - it's very close to a lightened sample of the Akan acrylic AMT-7. Obviously I can easily be persuaded to change my mind... Wink

John
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learstang
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 05:57:57 PM »

Xan, thank you for the links.  For what it's worth, and I've already mentioned this in other threads (as John can attest), I use Testors Model Master flat enamel Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7.  I think it's a pretty good match.  It's not as bright as the WEM AMT-7, and appears to have a little grey to it.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2011, 11:05:12 PM »

This is really an interesting topic. I am even listed between the authorities, even if with a different name.... I like it Wink
Massimo
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Pascal
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 11:27:25 PM »

even if with a different name.... I like it ;)Massimo

Don't worry Massimo, it is Xan's specialty... Grin

Pascal
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 08:21:06 AM »

Xan, thanks for the interesting link!

Good to see familiar names there ? people who are members of this forum or those who participated in ARC forum discussions.  Good to see that there is an interest for VVS colours and that modelers are doing their homework ? they are trying to figure out what are the authentic VVS colours.

That said, I can?t understand why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? Huh
Pilawskii?s problem is not that he had missed a shade of green or shade of blue.  More serious problem with him is that he had made up stories that he is trying to sell as history -  Events that never happend.  In same fashion, he had invented colours and camouflage schemes that never existed.

It doesn?t make sense to compare Akan(-Orlov) paints with WEM(-Pilawskii) paints.  That is like comparing Revell?s Fw-190 kit from 1960-es with modern Japanese Fw-190 kits ? the old kit is simply WRONG!

I am not saying that Akan is the absolute truth:  some colours may have been lighter or glossier, but those are currently the most accurate colours!

Cheers,
KL
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mholly
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 10:11:22 AM »

Quote
why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? Huh
Because there is still nothing in English (French, German, Spanish...) out there.
Regardless I fully agree with your posting.
Cheers,
Mario
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xan
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 04:22:04 PM »

Hello konstantin,
think for interesting in our "research"
That said, I can?t understand why modelers there still consider Pilawskii as a source? Huh
well, just because Pilawskii's book is surely the best know book about VVS colours during the GPW.
It was the first book I bought abd I thought then it was the ultimate and definitive book...
Our is find clear references of paints for the french modelers in paints easy to catch (witch is not the case of Akan paints)
so it seems me normal to explain wich are the different posotions around the colours...
I don't agree with Pilawskii's choise, but it seem inportant to me to show what he thinks, because you can not like it at all, but it's an important person in this subject.

It doesn?t make sense to compare Akan(-Orlov) paints with WEM(-Pilawskii) paints.

Oh yes I think it does!
WEM are know for the quality of its work in paints. For peaple it's a serius reference. If WEM did a wrong choise taking the Pilawskii's colours, , we have to show it and explain why do we think that...

I am not saying that Akan is the absolute truth:  some colours may have been lighter or glossier, but those are currently the most accurate colours!

I agree with you, colours are really accurate, and I bought all the VVS colours.
Does someone know if english, german, american and japan colours are as accurate than the soviets ? (I'm interested in the english azur blue...)

however I'm very happy to learn more about VVS colours thanks to you in this forum; if I decided to participate in it, it means that I definitively do my choice about pilawskii's work!
 Wink

Xan






« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 08:03:51 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 08:21:07 AM »

Hi Xan,   Smiley

I re-read the tread and I have realized that you guys are on the right track!  Congratulations!
WEM AMT-7 is wrong thanks to Pilawskii....  Cool  Pilawskii is actually a negative character there?  Grin

I don't agree with Pilawskii's choise, but it seem inportant to me to show what he thinks, because you can not like it at all, but it's an important person   Shocked in this subject.

Why is Pilawskii important?Huh

?   Pilawskii is not the first author who wrote about VVS colours.  In 1960es certain authors wrote about green-brown Jaks and Shtormovicks.  Willam Green wrote in 1970es how Jaks were manufactured at the combine factory in Saratov and how they were painted with tractor paints there.

?   Pilawskii?s book might be the first book in English dedicated to VVS colours.

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only book about VVS colours in English now.  There is Migliardi-Hornat?s book too.

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only resource about VVS colours available in English.  Internet sources like this forum are generally more reliable.

In short  AngryPilawskii?s book is the first, unsuccessful, attempt to write a book about VVS WWII colours.  Better to forget it and its author, like those authors from 1960es and 1970es.

Cheers,  Smiley
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 08:44:00 AM »

Well, I wouldn't be fully negative. Being the first book is already something. The book has many informations, photos and templates. Many of them could be good.
The problem with his work is his unreliability. He has always hidden his sources, refusing a peer discussion on his work and protecting himself behind silly excuses or arrogance or citations that often have been found unconsistent. This prevented the possibility to improve this self-declared bible in costructive way.
I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good. The problem is which half. If one makes his own research to check this, at the end he has documents enough to write a new book, no need of this one.
By the way, what about the translation of the booklet of Orlov?
Regards
Massimo Smiley
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xan
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 10:22:17 AM »

Why is Pilawskii important?Huh
just because he is well know by the modelers, but we spoke enough about Pilawskii we all agree about he...

?   Pilawskii?s book is not the only book about VVS colours in English now.  There is Migliardi-Hornat?s book too.
I read his book; what do you think about Hornat ?
Why don't he admits the AII coulours and speak about the A18F and A19F, who were paint for metal ?
As Pilawskii, he speaks about a A19F/dark green colour for the first two tons camouflage... (Konstantin, I do know it ain't true, that's just what he say Wink)
Is it close to Pilawskii, and a follower of him ?

Xan

« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 10:43:25 AM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2011, 05:50:29 AM »

... what do you think about Hornat ?
... Is it close to Pilawskii, and a follower of him ?

Hornat is one of the authors who wrote about Soviet WWII colours long, long before Pilawskii.  Hornat wrote about Soviet planes for the Czech magazine Letectvi+Kosmonautika and in late 1980es he published several texts about Soviet WWII colours there. He discovered a copy of 1943 NKAP camouflage templates somewhere in Czechoslovakia and he published them in 1989.  This was the highlight of his activities in this field.

My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

Cheers,  Smiley
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2011, 07:15:46 AM »

Hi KL and Xan,
Quote
My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

I think to have read somewhere that there was a previous edition of this book a dozen of years ago. If so, this would have been the first serious work in English.

In facts, the text doesn't appear copied from Pilawskii, because it never citates AII colors; I suspect that it's the contrary, that is one of the secret sources of EP.
Despite some omissions and some unconfirmed paints, the research looks of high level. I suspect even that Russian authors have taken informations from him, maybe from the old articles in Czech on LK.

Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 09:10:15 AM »

thanks to both of you
Xan
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Apex1701
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 03:03:55 PM »

Hi guys,

glad to be back to VVS modelling.

Hornat and Migliardi were/are active members of IPMS-Canada.
Lot of articles on hungarian WW2 planes was published in the IPMS-Canads magazine "Random Thoughts" way back in the late '70s and '80s by Hornat.
Since I'm no longer a member since '85 I don't know more recently.

As for Migliardi he is still an active member and being a graphic designer he was responsible for the publication of RT.
I suspect he is responsible of the graphic part of Colors of the Falcons.

In the intro of Colors Hornat states that his early works on VVS were published in " Letecvi + Kosmonautika " in the '80s.
That was before Vakhlamov and Orlov.


All the best.
Jean





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