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Author Topic: search to find paint references for VVS colours 1941/43  (Read 19174 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2011, 10:49:57 PM »

Quote
Hornat and Migliardi were/are active members of IPMS-Canada.
Lot of articles on hungarian WW2 planes was published in the IPMS-Canads magazine "Random Thoughts" way back in the late '70s and '80s by Hornat.
Since I'm no longer a member since '85 I don't know more recently.

As for Migliardi he is still an active member and being a graphic designer he was responsible for the publication of RT.
I suspect he is responsible of the graphic part of Colors of the Falcons.

In the intro of Colors Hornat states that his early works on VVS were published in " Letecvi + Kosmonautika " in the '80s.
That was before Vakhlamov and Orlov.

Hi Jean, thank you for the explanations.
I've googled a bit, but I've not found again anything about a previous edition in English of this book, dated 2006. Perhaps it was some misunderstandment of me.
Regards
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2011, 02:38:17 AM »

Hi KL and Xan,
Quote
My opinion about the ?Colors of the Falcons?:
First, there are two authors ? it?s not clear what is Hornat?s and what is Migliardy?s.
Second, it is important to note that this book appeared after  1999 Orlov?s and Vahlamov?s series in M-Hobby magazine and after Pilawskii?s ?SAFFC? Magnum opus.  There are some pieces of information that could be traced back to Orlov & Vahlamov and there are treasures like ?South Front scheme? that are taken straight from Pilawskii.

In short: Colors of the Falcons is like ?ensalada mixta? or ?dog?s breakfast?.  Some useful information mixed with misconceptions, errors and fantasies coming from you know where?
Recommended for the serious students who can separate useful from the remaining garbage!!!

I think to have read somewhere that there was a previous edition of this book a dozen of years ago. If so, this would have been the first serious work in English.

In facts, the text doesn't appear copied from Pilawskii, because it never citates AII colors; I suspect that it's the contrary, that is one of the secret sources of EP.
Despite some omissions and some unconfirmed paints, the research looks of high level. I suspect even that Russian authors have taken informations from him, maybe from the old articles in Czech on LK.

Regards
Massimo
Gentlemen,
Let me try to clarify and/or add some facts. You may (or not) know that Jiri ("Jerry") Hornat is a Czech national.
I think he resides in Prague. He had been very actively contributing to Czechoslovak aviation magazine "Letectvi+Kosmonautika"
(Aviation and Cosmonautics) in the section "Male Letectvi" (Small Avation) predictably dedicated to plastic modelers.
He also co-authored several publications of the series "Triada" (trilogy) featuring references for 3 different aircraft
and even later "4+" publications.
About 2 years ago, when my interest in VVS "re-vitalized", I tried to obtain his (so many times mentioned) article
about VVS camouflage which was indeed published in L+K in 1989.
I narrowed down the search to November 1989 issues (probably 2 or more since L+K was/is a bi-weekly) magazine.
My first attempt thru contacts in Czech Republic failed but a fellow modeler in Slovakia
positively has them. They are however stored away and it'll take some time to obtain the copies.
I've been most curious about Hornat's sources. I even tried to contact him directly but that didn't work either due to
health issues. I think if we knew his sources it would explain certain "inconsistencies" in his "Colors of Falcons" which we
at this time call "mistakes and/or omissions". I'm sure there had been "somebody" researching this matter before
Vakhlamov/Orlov. I even have indirect proof. I was recently communicating with Claes Sundin from Sweden.
For those who don't know he is the author of incredible color profiles, especially Luftwaffe subjects. His profiles
also appeared in "Black Cross Red Star" series of books. When I was looking there at some VVS subject I noticed some
"not-quite-correct" camo paint description such as AMT-17 Sky Blue! As his source in Russia he mentioned certain Alex Andreev.
He (Sundin) actually went to Moscow in late 90-ies.
Maybe this gentleman (Andreev) was Hornat's source as well? Based on what I remember from then Czechoslovakia
I don't believe Hornat did a primary reseach.
When I asked Orlov he didn't really know too much about Hornat and his sources for that matter.
I guess we still have a lot to learn, yes?
Cheers,
Mario
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KL
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 06:30:09 AM »

Hi Massimo,

Again about Pilawskii? sorry, but IMHO it?s an important/interesting subject, part of the story about VVS WWII colours.

Well, I wouldn't be fully negative. Being the first book is already something. The book has many informations, photos and templates. Many of them could be good.

I am not negative ? I am critical.  There is no new information there, you know well that all SAFF photos were already published.

Templates?  Pilawski didn?t include official 1941 black-green template in his book!!!!   Pilawskiii proclaims that 1943 NKAP templates have not been used!!!!  Instead he offers ?tiger stripes? ?W scheme? and ?loops? etc.

The problem with his work is his unreliability.

His book is unreliable because it's loaded with his guesses, misconceptions, mistakes and fantasies.

I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good.

I wouldn?t be so generous.  For me, that bad part is more important anyway ? you don?t buy fish or fruit that is half rotten.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 07:29:11 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
I am not negative ? I am critical.  There is no new information there, you know well that all SAFF photos were already published.

Templates?  Pilawski didn?t include official 1941 black-green template in his book!!!!   Pilawskiii proclaims that 1943 NKAP templates have not been used!!!!  Instead he offers ?tiger stripes? ?W scheme? and ?loops? etc.
Well'I'm doing the same attempt to obtain templates, and I'll certainly have a look to them, but with some criticism.
About I-16: he shows three templates. Each of them is based on a single photo, where the plane is visible from one side. So, thet can't be considered representative of other planes.
But when compared to the 1941 template, one can see that them all are variations of this scheme, adapted to the shorter fuselage in different ways. I think that I'll trace only a mean template aside these three or four photos, and will be useful to guess what is there on the unshown side.
Other photos show not any resemblance to the template. Unfortunately, photos of disruptive camouflages on I-16 are few. If anuone has other photos than those already shown on the 1941-43 repainted planes page, please let me know.
Regards
Massimo
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John Thompson
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 06:48:00 PM »


Unfortunately, photos of disruptive camouflages on I-16 are few. If anuone has other photos than those already shown on the 1941-43 repainted planes page, please let me know.
Regards
Massimo


You're right about that! I went through all of the I-16 images I've saved from different places like ebay.de (almost 200 images, but including drawings and other things besides photos), and I could not find any new ones. The only other possibility would be to check avia-n-aero or other photo-sharing sites, I guess.

(Of course, now I want to stop everything else I'm doing and build a 1/72 I-16! Wink )

John
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KL
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2011, 05:19:24 AM »

I had to check what Pilawskii wrote about I-16 colours:





This is all totally and hopelessly WRONG!!!   This is not how I-16 camouflage developed!

Where are those 1936 I-16 type 5 painted in old ?protective? and old ?blue-gray?Huh

Not a single I-16 was painted in overall AEh-9, simply because AE-9 was a metal paint.  Black engine cowlings were a characteristic of 1936 planes; not a single gray I-16 had a black nose.

Factory green (AEh-5 or AEh-15) didn?t exist, it?s Pilawskii?s fantasy!!!!

Pilawskii?s 1938 and 1939 planes have blue undersides, painted with AII blue that didn?t exist at that time!  Where are gray and silver undersides?Huh

According to Pilawskii, disruptive black-green camouflage was factory applied from 1939!!!!!!!  Read Vahlamov and Orlov ? order to camouflage planes in black-green was issued on June 23 1941!!!!!!

Where are those 1940 I-16s Type 29 painted in May 1940 Green-Blue scheme?Huh

I am thinking that at least half of what is written is good. The problem is which half.

Where is that good half???  All that I can see on those two pages is garbage. Angry

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 06:50:18 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2011, 07:24:39 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
the text is wrong, no doubt, and the three schemes could give the idea to be built on a wide documentation, while I'm convinced that each of them is based on a single photo of a single plane.
Again, the book has photos and drawings that could be useful, even if they have been already published on other books.
About buying half rotten fruit: it depends on what alternative is there. During the siege of Leningrad, half-rotten fruit would have been a luxury.
No doubt, something replacing this book with something better would be welcome, but it was a pity that this couldn't have been done in an evolutionary way because of the attitude of the author, because he had already in his hands the rights for photos and drawings that could have been utilized after corrections.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2011, 06:25:59 PM »

the text is wrong, no doubt,

... the three schemes ... I'm convinced that each of them is based on a single photo of a single plane.

... the book has photos and drawings that could be useful, even if they have been already published on other books.

What is the value of the book which has wrong text?  Someone who wants to learn about I-16 camouflage and buys this book - it's still available for some $40.00 - will be mislead with erroneous information.

$40.00 for book that has wrong text and photos that have already been published?Huh  In my opinion it's a waste of money.

If text is wrong, if drawings are wrong and photos are already seen, what is Pilavskii's contribution to the better understanding of Soviet colours and camouflage?

Cheers,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2011, 10:55:29 PM »

Hey! I think we all agree about the Pilawskii's works, and we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?
 Wink
Xan
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mholly
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2011, 01:21:54 AM »

Quote
we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?
I beg to differ. He published 223 pages on the topic. As KL keeps saying there are so many "problems" in this quite a large body of work
that, missing a thorough analysis, it's important to continue to find and address them. Not only here but pass it onto the other members of the modeling community through other boards which, I have no doubt, each of us is visiting as well.
As I said more than once before EP's misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the CHRONOLOGY of VVS camo paint and systems is ABYSMAL!
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KL
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2011, 08:11:40 AM »

Hey! I think we all agree about the Pilawskii's works, and we are speaking too much about him, don't you think ?

I don't think so.  Wink

Didn't you ask about Green-Dark Green I-16s few weeks ago?Huh?
 Cheesy

Cheers,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2011, 12:17:23 PM »

of course , and I had the answer I wanted thanks to you and the other, it's great!
Xan
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