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Author Topic: La-7 "white 14" Alelyukhin, Lagg-3 ser.66, I-15bis-MORE PIX added!  (Read 10376 times)
xan
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 08:38:20 PM »

Loocking the I-152's pic, something came to my mind.
I read in the hormat's book that AII paint was glossy. And it's true that some I-16 appears very glossy on the pics.
But I see that Akhan did a matt color.
What do you think of that ?

AIIz was glossy or matt ?
If it's the first answer, a satin semi glossy varnish could be find isn't it ?
Xan
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 01:40:33 AM »

Excellent work Mario!
I-15bis with silver undersides looks great.
Is the lower part of the engine cowling light gray AE-9?  what did you use for AE-9?

Cheers,
KL
Thanks Kosta. Whole undersides are painted in "AII al", including cowling. I was not sure about AE-9.
Cheers,
M
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mholly
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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 01:47:43 AM »

Quote
I read in the hormat's book that AII paint was glossy. And it's true that some I-16 appears very glossy on the pics.
But I see that Akhan did a matt color.
What do you think of that ?
I don't know if you used Akan paints but I obtained "eggshell" finish. I think their lack of sheen has something to do with
the chemistry.
Quote
AIIz was glossy or matt ?
AII series paints were glossy, that's why orders came for new flat paints i.e. AMT series.
Mario
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2011, 08:44:22 AM »

Hi Mario,
AE-9 light gray is more likely colour for metal undersides (lower part of the cowling, LG legs and spats, wing an vertical stabilizer fairings).  Silver oil paint for metal AE-8, appeared only at the end of 1938.  Photographic evidence seems to suggest either silver-gray combination (AII Aluminium + AE-9) or gray only (AII Gray + AE-9) undersides.  But, that is b/w photo interpretation...  Lips Sealed

Most important, you didn't paint undersides in AII Light Blue.

Cheers,
KL
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 09:58:20 AM »

Hi Mario,
AE-9 light gray is more likely colour for metal undersides (lower part of the cowling, LG legs and spats, wing an vertical stabilizer fairings).  Silver oil paint for metal AE-8, appeared only at the end of 1938.  Photographic evidence seems to suggest either silver-gray combination (AII Aluminium + AE-9) or gray only (AII Gray + AE-9) undersides.  But, that is b/w photo interpretation...  Lips Sealed

Most important, you didn't paint undersides in AII Light Blue.

Cheers,
KL
I was thinking about AE-9/AII al combination but then got lazy and did it all in "silver". It's a very old model, "refurbished", and had been initially painted in "Pilawskii's style", Warpac green+Bright blue.
I-16 type 10 I'm working on will be "gray" undersides though!
Cheers,
Mario
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xan
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2011, 12:26:48 PM »

Do you mean that you think that before 1941, all planes were AIIz and AII grey or silver and not AIIZ and AIIblue, even the I-16 ?
and paint the undersurfaces in AII blue would be a mistake ?

Xan
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2011, 01:34:23 PM »

Do you mean that you think that before 1941, all planes were AIIz and AII grey or silver and not AIIZ and AIIblue, even the I-16 ?
and paint the undersurfaces in AII blue would be a mistake ?

Xan
It's not that straight-forward. AII sv gol (lt.blue) was introduced in 1940, AII z (green) in 1937. So until 1941 you have overlapping periods of AIIz/silver or gray and AIIz/AII sv gol combination. AMT series paints were introduced in mid-1941 to replace all AII paints.
You should consult this table in research section
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html
Hope this help.
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2011, 10:33:31 PM »

On the subject of I-16 colours, I found this while I was looking for information regarding when the cowling modification to retract skis was made, in the Scalemodels.ru pinned I-16 thread (which is 51 pages long!!!). Is this of any help?:

To answer this question, you can try to apply to the book by Maslov's "Fighter-16" and a monograph Vahlamova and M. Orlov, "Colors of Soviet aviation."
In Maslow read: "... newly fighter drove a paint shop, which is painted in the standard dark green above and gray-blue below. Next: Summer 1937. ... Aircraft with monocoque fuselages determined to paint all in matte silver. Indeed, such I-16 later met, but significant proliferation have not received. In early 1938. The factories were sent new instructions, whereby the upper surfaces of wings, fuselage and tail should paint a protective color (dark green), and the lower surface - the "silver-aluminum (dull) color." ... Since 25.05.1940g. all military aircraft were painted: the top in a protective, dark green, below a protective, light blue color. "
Orlov Vahlamov: "Up to about 1937. The main and almost the only color the top and side surfaces of military aircraft remained defensive, having the designation "3B". Around the ... 1937. ... In a "palette" of Soviet aviation appeared light gray paint AE-9 and the AP light gray, for the "finishing external surfaces of the ground planes. Specifications for all the colors were officially introduced on January 1, 1938. Moreover, in light gray and stained with upper and lower surfaces of the aircraft. However, the AE-9 ... was soon ousted from the outer surface aeroemalyu AE-8 silver. For staining wood and fabric skins used dope AP aluminum.
When the upper surfaces and light gray or aluminum color and lower surfaces were the same colors.
In early February 1937. Head of UMTS Alexandrov Red Army Air Force briginzhener signed Circular number ... 133580s for "question the choice of standard colors for the coloration of aircraft, engines and components.
- "Color metal and wooden planes made: a) the upper surface of the wings, tail and fuselage, with a faceted shape - in khaki on the model number 1, and b) the lower surface of the wing feathers, side and bottom surfaces faceted fuselage, the whole surface of the fuselage monocoque type - painted in silver-aluminum (dull) color ... "
Circular acted briefly in December 1937. Released a new ... Nedorabotannost first document is obviously incomplete and led to its application in practice, or are likely to save the photos I-16 fighters from the fuselage, painted entirely in silver, and the top surface of the wings and tail khaki. But the lower surface really began to be painted silver.
23 May 1940. KO of the USSR passed a resolution "220ss, the main contents of which - from May 25 to enter the painting of aircraft from the top green, bottom blue."
Thus suggests that depending on the time of manufacture paint I-16 could be the following:
Since 1934. at about mid-1937. - Green top, blue bottom
From mid 1937 to early 1938 - all gray or gray-silver
Since 1938. to May 1940. - Green top, silver bottom
From May 1940 - green top, blue bottom.


I bolded the conclusions...

John
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xan
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 11:17:22 PM »

woaoh! impressive!

I'm riding this book:



so it means that the I-16 and I-152 in the conflit of nomohan against the japenese between may and september of 1939 where paint with silver bottom and AIIZ in upper surface ?
I never see an I-16 model paint in silver undersurfaces!!!

Xan
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 11:20:24 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2011, 04:57:23 AM »

Hi Xan,  Smiley

I-16 Type 10 Manual, published in 1939, specifies AII Gray for lower surfaces.

More about the colours of that period:
1937 to May 1940 colours at:  http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/1937-1940.html
May 1940 to June 1941 colours at: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1940-1941/1940-41.html

discussion about the two pages at:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=938.0

AII Blue appeared in mid-1940.  End of the story!!!   Cheesy

The fact that blue wasn't in use between 1937 and 1940 is known for long time - Vahlamov and Orlov published this in 1996!  All models, profiles and drawings showing planes of the Nomonhan incident or Winter War with blue undersides are wrong...
 
Cheers,
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »

Hi all,
Quote
The fact that blue wasn't in use between 1937 and 1940 is known for long time - Vahlamov and Orlov published this in 1996!  All models, profiles and drawings showing planes of the Nomonhan incident or Winter War with blue undersides are wrong...
It could have been the pre-1937 grey-blue.
Besides there are some photos of I-16 with some metallic reflex under the rear fuselage (wood and fabric), but none photo that I've seen shows silver under the nose, so grey on metal parts is more likely.
I have to create links on the site on those pages, even if they are still provisional. It looks that they are needed.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2011, 08:53:01 AM »

Quote
The fact that blue wasn't in use between 1937 and 1940 is known for long time - Vahlamov and Orlov published this in 1996!  All models, profiles and drawings showing planes of the Nomonhan incident or Winter War with blue undersides are wrong...
It could have been the pre-1937 grey-blue.

OK, I have to correct myslf:  Models, profiles and drawings showing planes of the Nomonhan incident or Winter War with blue undersides are wrong, if those planes were manufactured after mid-1937.   Grin.

Besides there are some photos of I-16 with some metallic reflex under the rear fuselage (wood and fabric), but none photo that I've seen shows silver under the nose, so grey on metal parts is more likely.

Hmm... Probably true, but priority should go towards the authors who wrote about that 15 years ago and towards the primary sources (1939 I-16 Type 10 Manual) and not to photo interpretation.  Untill recently every camouflaged I-16 Type 10 was interpreted as Green-Light Blue.    Check for this the new Pilawskii's I-16 book...

Cheers,
KL
   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2011, 02:03:24 PM »

Hi all,
now the already done pages on painting the Soviet planes up to 1943 are on line. The latest update was the building of a template for Pe-8

Quote
Hmm... Probably true, but priority should go towards the authors who wrote about that 15 years ago and towards the primary sources (1939 I-16 Type 10 Manual) and not to photo interpretation.  Untill recently every camouflaged I-16 Type 10 was interpreted as Green-Light Blue.    Check for this the new Pilawskii's I-16 book...

About I-16, I've seen a movie today showing the undersurface of a UTI I-16 in flight, and I feel confirmed that colors on metal and wood/fabric parts are different, the last one being aluminium. I'll use a pair of screenshots for the page.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2011, 05:02:32 PM »

Hi,
I've uploaded these photos of UTI in the 1937/1940 page.
Regards
Massimo
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