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Author Topic: J. Hornat's texts in Letectvi + Kosmonautika  (Read 8733 times)
KL
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« on: May 15, 2011, 06:30:32 AM »

Gentlemen,   Smiley

Old Letectvi + Kosmonautika magazines and Hornat?s texts published in 1988 and 1989 are available on Russian internet resources and can be downloaded for free (if you are willing to risk a virus attack  Lips Sealed).

Two Hornat?s texts from 1988:











Two texts from 1989 in which 1943 NKAP schemes were described in detail for the first time:









It would be really interesting and useful if somebody  Wink translates these texts, or tell us what is there.  What new information was confirmed by Vahlamov & Orlov and what information could be classified now as ?urban legends?, guesswork, errors, etc.  

Hornat?s texts are important, they may have been the first attempt to explain Soviet WWII colours using primary sources.

Cheers,  Smiley
KL
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 06:39:01 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 05:09:45 PM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
thank you for uploading these scans. I hope that your computer is well now.
My idea is that if one starts with the idea that all what is not confirmed by Orlov is an urban legend, it becomes perfectly unuseful to translate other texts and to research other things.
By the way, what is written near the photo of I-230? Light grey and dark green?
Regards
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 07:04:30 PM »

Konstantin:
Thanks a lot for "digging" these out. I don't have time for full translation now but can tell (soon) what's in the text.
Massimo:
Quote
By the way, what is written near the photo of I-230? Light grey and dark green?
Gray and dark green.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 09:57:35 PM »

Thank you
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 04:59:51 AM »

"Soviet fighter aircraft colors during WWII" is the title of the first Hornat's article (1988).
I read it carefully (with the fond memories) and don't find it worth full translation.In general he's trying to make some "educated guesses" but his caption of the very first picture (Mig-3s) is quite amuzing.
He states that the first 2 machines carry the "pre-war light gray camo which is being confused with temporary
white winter finish!"
He only suspects the existence of VVS camo order (issued shortly before the beginning of GPW as we know nowadays) however talks
about "light green/black" camouflage pioneered by Yakovlev (which is true). On the other hand writes about
variety of "emergency schemes" resulting from relocating the Soviet aviation industry to the East using
"non-standard" colors. These "emergency schemes" should have included combinations of brown/green, gray/green (!)
and dk.green/lt.green (again!). One of the sources he quotes, rather vaguely (no issue nr., no date neither author),
is the Soviet monthly magazine "Krylia Rodiny" (Wings of the Motherland) which in "the recent issue" stated that
"during the first years of the war the standard camo on the top and side surfaces were irregular patterns of
dark green and light brown towards sand colors and in the 2nd half of the war this camo consisted of the patterns
of dk.gray and lighter gray".
According to Hornat later released book "Sovetskye Istrebityeli" (Soviet Fighters) "shed more light on the matter".
Not only did the book confirm later "gray/gray" and earlier "green/brown" schemes but also confirmed "another standard
camo used until 1943 consisting of irregular patterns of dk.green and medium green primarily used on Mig-3"(!!!).
Consequently, he says, all earlier mentioned schemes should be considered as "emergency" or "temporary" ones.
Then he writes that "surprisingly" soviet paint were coded for instance light blue was AMT-7 and "oddly" this nomenclature
is only known for (earlier) "emergency" camo of black and light green patterns i.e. light green was AMT-4 and
black was AMT-6! On the other hand he states that red color of the Soviet stars was "nitro-lacquer marked A-11kr".
As a proof of standard gray/gray camo pattern application he submits the picture (very last one) of Normandie-Niemen Yak-3s
upon arrival in Le Bourget June 20th, 1945. This is personally find the most interesting and really "story telling"
information.
Then he quotes (vaguely, again) another French source on a non-standard N-N Yak-3 coloration. It had been supposedly
developed by Soviet mechanics during the fall of 1944 and it was to replace both "gray/gray" and "winter white" schemes.
It should have been a paint of "very light gray-green" color. "French source" confirms its application but Hornat
doubts it (so do I).
Then he continues with details coloration:
- wheel wells and wheel discs were undersurface color i.e. light blue
- propeller blades semi-flat black
- cockpits, insufficient information is available but Yak-3 had cockpit dk.gray and instrument panel in black.
To wrap this up he's pondering on previously circulated, and vastly incorrect, information trying to put it in some order however
he's not specific about his sources and overall it doesn't look to me that he has done any primary research himself
(as I suspected). Bottom line-in the light of V-O research nothing really ground-breaking and valuable.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 06:59:17 AM »

Thanks Mario,
well, it looks that the book of 2006 was much better documented. But I wonder... if he had such health problems, how did he do? And if he copied Orlov or Pilawskii, why doesn't he write about AII colors?
I'm still wondering where I did read about 'colors of the falcons' in late '90s.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 08:32:28 AM »

Hi Mario,
Thank you very much!
Your post pretty much explains what were Hornat?s sources in 1988:  Soviet magazines ?Krila Rodini?, ?Modelist Konstruktor?, ?Tehnika-molodozhi? and Voronin?s & Kolesnikov's book about Soviet fighters.  Photos were borowed from Finish ?Red Stars? (C-F Geust).

Texts that appeared in those Soviet magazines in late 1970es and in 1980es were a real breakthrough, primarily for their line drawings and they are considered as classics today.   Illustrations by V. Voronin and M. Petrovski were inspirational (but not always historically accurate).

























From:  http://mkmagazin.almanacwhf.ru/avia/index.htm

Obviously, there was some information about colours in those texts but colours/camouflage were not the main subject.

Can?t wait for Text No 2!

Thanks again,
Konstantin
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 09:06:23 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 01:59:09 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
good photos indeed. They look based on bw photos, perhaps on repainted photos.
About the flying boat: who knows if there is any source for those colors?
Regards
Massimo
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John Thompson
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 04:05:08 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
good photos indeed. They look based on bw photos, perhaps on repainted photos.
About the flying boat: who knows if there is any source for those colors?
Regards
Massimo

For what it's worth, here's a section of a Scalemodels.ru colours thread with some discussion of naval colours, beginning about halfway down the page with a post by Psy06 from November 15, 2009. Give it a few seconds for the automatic translation to work:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_233825.html#233825

Discussion about AMT-10; scroll down about 1/3 of the page to another post by Psy06, dated July 5, 2009:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40

Psy06 is a member on Sovietwarplanes.com; maybe he'd respond to a PM from you? He seems pretty knowledgeable on this topic.

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 07:19:19 AM »

Quote
For what it's worth, here's a section of a Scalemodels.ru colours thread with some discussion of naval colours, beginning about halfway down the page with a post by Psy06 from November 15, 2009. Give it a few seconds for the automatic translation to work:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_233825.html#233825

Discussion about AMT-10; scroll down about 1/3 of the page to another post by Psy06, dated July 5, 2009:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40

Psy06 is a member on Sovietwarplanes.com; maybe he'd respond to a PM from you? He seems pretty knowledgeable on this topic.

Hi John,
I remember that he discussed the thing on ARCforum too. There was not a clear conclusion, only interpretations.
Regards
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 02:56:19 AM »

I'm a bit late with this but since I had promised here it goes. Again no full translation is necessary as explained later in the text.
This article is describing the document "Airplane Camouflage Painting Schemes" resulting from the NKAP and VVS order nr.389/0133 issued on July 3rd, 1943 and confirmed on  July 18th, 1943. We are all (more-less) familiar with it nowadays thanks to V/O article in M-Hobby and Aviakolektsya No.12, 2008, pp.13-18.
Hornat states he was able to study copy nr.4505 of this document thanks to the generosity of Mr.Josef Bina from Veseli nad Luzici and concludes that this document must have been widely disctributed cosidering its high number (agreed).
Strangely only 2 pages from this original document were printed in the article-front page and one of Il-2 schemes.  The booklet has/had 17 pages in total according to Hornat. Then he describes the contents focusing on the actual patterns. In the 2nd part of this article he's submitting full text translation:
1. the list of (the aircraft) coloration was prepared according to the NKAP and VVS order nr.389/0133 issued on July 3rd, 1943
2. the top and side surfaces of all fighter aircraft are to have two colors: gray-blue and dark gray in an equal proportion
3. the top and side surfaces of all types of aircraft except fighters are to have three colors: green, light brown and dark gray
4. position, color and dimensions of the national insignia remain the same as earlier
5. the undersurfaces of all aircraft are to be in blue color, same as earlier
6. transition of one color pattern to another one can be sharp if the paint is applied by brush or soft if the paint is applied by the airbrush
7.  only the aircraft under repair at the units are subject to the painting in accordance with this album"
8. coloration must be executed only in the standard paints supplied to the aviation units of the following nomenclature: for the wooden and fabric airframe skins green paint AMT-4, light brown AMT-1, dark gray AMT-12, gray-blue AMT-11 and blue AMT-1"7.
For metal skins the paints are: green A-24M, light brown A-21M, dark gray A-32M and blue A-28M.
The instruction is concluded by signature of the Chief of Camouflage Service of the VVS RKKA
engineer Colonel Yasin dated July 18th, 1943.
Hornat says at the beginning of his article that this information is possibly being published for the very first time ever. I incline to believe that.
Read into the point 7.
Also into the point 8-notice the blue paint nomenclature AMT-17!!! Despite not having seen the original text I'd say it's a typo. "Coloration must be executed only in the standard paints supplied to the aviation units of the following nomenclature..." How about that! That should really bury all those doubts and "researches" about AII, "tractor" or any other paints still being used after 1943.
Now despite this Hornat's undisputedly pioneering deed, which unfortunately remained unnoticed in the "West", in the "large scheme of things" I THEORIZE as follows.
Hornat in his later "Colors of Falcons" book copied heavily Vakhlamov/Orlov's article in M-Hobby. Being from the "older" Czechoslovak generation he was more-less competent in Russian, relatively easy to do. He omitted all V/O writing on AII paints on purpose to avoid possible copyright problems. Why he added nonsenses about "tractor/factory" greens, "southern schemes" remains unclear. Maybe some older articles in Soviet hobby/aviation magazines? Even "link" to Pilawskii? Regardless it's in quite stark contrast to what he published in 1989!
Pilawskii (oh well). Also copied heavily from V/O and also intentionally omitted and modified that basic information due to the possible copyright issues. Then he wanted much larger book for commercial purposes (I don't blame him) and added all his own stuff based on 17000 something pictures.
To wrap this up, the only credible and primary research we have available today is V/O work.
Cheers,
Mario
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Pascal
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 11:37:32 AM »

Thanks for your translation and commentary ! It's very interesting. And I guess we'll all agree here with your conclusion.

Pascal
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learstang
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 06:26:56 PM »

Excellent summary, Mario - thank you!

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 06:37:08 PM »

Hi Mario,
Thanks for the translation!!!  It?s extremely valuable, it explains:

-  1943 camouflage order
-  Hornat?s contribution at that time. He is still the first who used original Soviet document to explain VVS colours.

Quote
He omitted all V/O writing on AII paints on purpose to avoid possible copyright problems.

IMHO it?s not a copyright issue.  There isn?t such thing as a copyright on information printed in books.  You can?t scan part of the book and sell it, but you can quote sentences or paragraphs.  There is no limit if you retell parts of the book in your own words.  This is actually how most ?popular aviation history? books are written ? by relying on already published data.  That?s why myths are perpetuated, and why ?popular aviation history? books are not considered as reliable source among historians.  Check following links:

http://dictatorshipoftheair.com/2006/07/22/aviation-history-sources-pt-2-primary-sources/
http://dictatorshipoftheair.com/2006/07/15/aviation-history-sources-pt-1-secondary-sources/

And each year hundreds more articles and books are added to the mountain of existing works. The overwhelming majority of these sources fall into the category of what is considered popular history. Sometimes richly illustrated, well-written, and insightful (and sometimes not), these secondary sources derive their information almost exclusively from other secondary sources. In other words, rather than uncovering new archival evidence, introducing new arguments, or advancing new concepts, they re-package information available elsewhere. Very often, these sources are ?inventories,? works that provide ?facts & figures? (plus some cool photos) to the exclusion of other considerations.

Both Hornat (1988/89) and Pilawskii (2003) used Soviet and Finnish sources from 1980es (there was a lot of brown-green there).  As you said, both Hornat & Migliardy (2005) and Pilawskii (2003) hevily relied on Vahlamov & Orlov (1999). And yes, some Pilawskii (2003) reappeared in Hornat & Migliardy (2005)!!!

Cheers,
KL

« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 07:13:18 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 08:07:19 PM »

Hi,
I would know by sure if there was, or was not, a first edition of Colors of the falcons in late '90s. If Hornat is in bad health conditions, maybe Migliardi could answer.
Who has any idea on how to contact him?
Regards
Massimo
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