Sovietwarplanes
June 19, 2019, 12:46:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: yellow bordered red stars  (Read 6822 times)
xan
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 456



WWW
« on: May 18, 2011, 11:08:28 PM »

Hi,

1)
what about the yellow bordered red stars.
when did they appears, where they in a specific front or in specific planes?


2)
in general, I'm very suspicius with the yellow colours in soviets plane (I'm talking about band, number etc, not about the stars...)
I find quit logical when I red somewhere the ack-ack was very nervous with yellow colour wich was associated with germans, finnish or Romanian planes...
I always suspect that VVS planes profiles with yellow colours are bad interpr?tation of B&W colours (well I know that I'm not totaly right)

Xan
Logged

learstang
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1740



WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 12:37:45 AM »

I couldn't agree more with you Xan about the usage of yellow colours.  I've always been sceptical of its use by the VVS, for the reason you've given.  Yellow was the identifying colour of the Axis.  If I were a VVS pilot, and a plane with a yellow nose or propeller spinner flies in front of me, I'm going to fire first and ask questions later.  I've even seen a model of a MiG-3 or LaGG-3, I can't remember which, that featured a yellow nose.  Nonsense.  That aeroplane would've been asking to be shot down.  It could be that what has been interpreted as yellow outlines, bands, and numbers are actually silver, as I've read these colours may look similar in B&W photographs.  There seems to be some question over how much (if any), yellow was actually used.  I do remember reading, on this site I believe, where a veteran mentioned yellow being used on IL-2 spinners, but 60-plus year old memories are not to be completely trusted.  At any rate, it's an interesting question, and I'm glad you started a thread on it.  I'm sure Massimo can shed some more light on this question.

Regards,

Jason
Logged

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

http://www.learstang.com
mholly
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 01:41:08 AM »

Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER. I believe this was established before the GPW therefore the possible mis-identification with enemy planes (due to yellow color application) is not really that relevant.
I would not exclude yellow for bort numbers or some other markings. It may have happened as an exception in the isolated cases which we can hardly track down through b&w pix "analysis". Smiley
As a red stars outline however it would be contrary to afore-mentioned orders and there is no physical evidence for it unlike for silver borders (P-39 in Finnland)! I stay firm that b&w pix are of any help (again) neither there are veteran's testimonials.
I have to admit though that it looks cool on scale models especially on "green/BROWN" fighter camo! Tongue
Cheers,
Mario
Logged
learstang
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1740



WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 01:51:58 AM »

I agree with that, Mario.  There may have been isolated instances, but they were probably rare, and certainly not as widespread as profile after profile, decal sheet after decal sheet, and kit instruction sheet after kit instruction sheet would have you believe.  Actually, red stars with large yellow surrounds look great on tractor green painted aircraft!  The bright yellow is a great complement to the neon green.

Regards,

Jason
Logged

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

http://www.learstang.com
John Thompson
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1486



« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 03:19:16 AM »

Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER.

This information as quoted elsewhere by Kari Lumppio is the main reason the yellow ink on the new PrintScale La-5 decal sheet kind of sets my teeth on edge:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1069.msg6166#new

John
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5718


« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 07:23:04 AM »

Quote
Gentlemen,
Turn your attention to the documentary evidence. V-O clearly wrote that the only authorized colors for markings were RED, WHITE and SILVER.

I think that there were exceptions, even if not too frequent. For example, the red 1 in the rudder of the MiG-3 of Veesiveehma depot is dark red with light blue-green outline. Veterans speak of yellow, maybe not on the spinner. And blue was utilized as an unit marker. Besides all fantasy painting as tigers, eagles and so on can't be done with the base colors only.
So, red, white and silver should be supposed where there is not a good reason to choose other paints.
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 07:53:36 AM »

1)
what about the yellow bordered red stars.
when did they appears, where they in a specific front or in specific planes?

They appeared after the war, west of the "Iron Curtain".  No specific planes - any soviet plane was good for yellow bordered red star!

















They all originate from here:




Hope this helps,
KL



« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 08:25:11 AM by KL » Logged
mholly
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 01:50:55 PM »

Hey Kosta,
What a nice collection of the kit box art! Do you actually have all of them?
Funny but that earliest Yak-9 issue (header bag) shows almost correct green/black camo, well EP's version!
Similar Il-2, called this time Stormavik!
Cheers,
Mario
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5718


« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 04:51:04 PM »

Hi
from the great expert EP:
Quote
To do so, the Soviets began to paint in different colours spinners, cowlings, rudder direction, the upper part of keels (the so-called ?caps?), as well as paint stripes on the vertical tail, fuselage and the wings of the aircraft. Sometimes special emblems were used. All of these showed the machine belonged to a particular squadron, regiment or division. We used colours of red, white, blue and yellow colours, including those intended for painting of internal surfaces.
Quote
Often, for marking aircraft belonging to the squadron coloured spinners were used. Usually, the first squadron had a red spinner, the second - blue, the third - yellow.
EmbarrassedI missed, this is not EP... he's Orlov.
So, I don't know if there were really stars with yellow border, but the color was utilized in VVS anyway.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
xan
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 456



WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 06:43:08 PM »

Oh, so the yellow question is not very clear yet...

Very nice collection Konstantin! the airfix are yours ?

but the yellow appears in modern models as the I-16 type 10 of Eduard:



to be honest they propose another version, who seems much realistic to me:



oh, did someone have any pic of this plane?

Xan
Logged

John Thompson
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1486



« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 09:54:20 PM »

I'd like to see a photo, too - I just started converting an ICM 1/72 I-16 to a type 10. However, I think the underside colour on a type 10 would have been AII Gray/AE-9, would it not? The black may be a field application over the factory AII Z Green? A photo would certainly be helpful. I hope Kontantin or Massimo confirms these colours before you paint anything! Wink

John
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 03:54:39 AM »

I guess it is a personal choice.
You either believe what Pilawskii wrote in his book (1939 factory applied black-green over AII Blue), or you believe what V&O wrote (AII Z and gray undersides, Black is field applied after June 1941).

It doesn't make sense to ask a question if you are confused; some may see discussion about colours as personal attack on Pilawskii's opus.

Cheers,
KL
Logged
xan
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 456



WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 07:25:49 AM »

Hi, Konstantin,
this plane is a late decoration:
it's a training plane in a unknow unit in Leningrad area in 1944.
it could had be repeint between 1941 and 1943...

Xan
Logged

Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5718


« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 08:46:05 AM »

Hi,
I've found the photo on Squadron Signal n.162, Polikarpov fighters part 2, pag.29.
The tail number is not visible, but the text says that is red 4, so another photo should exist.
The caption describes a white-bordered star with a yellow band around the fuselage, but they looks identical to my eye, possibly silver.
The caption deduces the date, 1944, from the style of the star, and says that this was used as a liaison aircraft.
The camo isn't perfectly identical to the drawing of the kit.
The owner of the photo is Vaclav Simecek, maybe he knows more.
Have you this book?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
John Thompson
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1486



« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 05:32:27 PM »


you believe what V&O wrote (AII Z and gray undersides, Black is field applied after June 1941).


Thanks, Konstantin - don't tell me I finally got one right! At last I'm learning something... Wink

Hi,
I've found the photo on Squadron Signal n.162, Polikarpov fighters part 2, pag.29.
The tail number is not visible, but the text says that is red 4, so another photo should exist.
The caption describes a white-bordered star with a yellow band around the fuselage, but they looks identical to my eye, possibly silver.
The caption deduces the date, 1944, from the style of the star, and says that this was used as a liaison aircraft.
The camo isn't perfectly identical to the drawing of the kit.
The owner of the photo is Vaclav Simecek, maybe he knows more.
Have you this book?
Regards
Massimo

One thing I've noticed about the Squadron "In Action" series is that they occasionally crop published photos rather poorly, even to the extent of removing details that are referred to in the photo caption. It's possible that there is only the one photo, and that the original actually shows the tail of the aircraft. Obviously only Vaclav Simecek can answer that question, unless the photo has been published uncropped somewhere else.

John
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!