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Author Topic: Corrections for Pilawski's book  (Read 51164 times)
Graham Boak
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« on: May 19, 2011, 05:28:30 PM »

Would it be possible to set up a section dedicated to the errors in Pilawski's book?   Then whenever such a matter arose elsewhere on the board it could be dealt with briefly, by a simple reference to the appropriate posting within the section.  In the section, it would be required that all the comments would be supported by evidence, including sources.  They must be made dispassionately, without text in capitals or block letters or attempting character assassination.  Demands for burning EP at the stake as an unregenerate heretic would not be permitted.

Oh well, I suppose that's too much to ask for, it would spoil some people's fun.  Perhaps you could relax the conditions to permit such antics, provided they only took place within that section?

I do feel that continuous vituperative attacks on this book and its author sour my interest in returning to this site, as it did the previous one.  I doubt that I was alone in this, and suspect it had much to do with the collapse of the previous site.  I also feel that such continual bad-mannered attacks are counterproductive to the critics claimed intentions, but that's perhaps another matter..
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 05:51:49 PM »

To tell the truth, I also think that some attacks are exaggerate and counterproductive. We can post corrections in this topic, avoiding personal criticism to the author.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2011, 03:39:00 AM »

Lets face it:
?   Quality of Pilawskii?s ?research? is abysmal.  His books are loaded with his misconceptions, misinterpretations, errors and fantasies.
?   It was Pilawskii?s own choice to ignore Vahlamov?s and Orlov?s work.  Instead of using their work as a historical framework, Pilawskii tried to downgrade their work (NKVD conspiracy) and to rewrite the history.
?   Pilawskii has never accepted any critics or any dialog about his book.  Pilawski was rude and bad-mannered with many of those who wanted to help and to improve quality of his book.

Is this that uncomfortable truth, hard to accept?

It looks to me, that it?s OK to criticize models if they are inaccurate and it?s not OK to criticize book that doesn?t connect with the historical reality.
It?s OK to criticize Hasegawa, ICM etc. for their bad models and it?s not OK to criticize authors for their bad books.
It?s OK to warn modelers not to buy bad models and it?s not OK to warn modelers about bad/useless books.

I would really like to see what other forum members think about all this?
How do others see my posts:  as personal attacks on Pilawskii (burning EP at the stake) or criticism of what Pilawskii wrote in his book?
Was I rude or bad-mannered?
Has anybody found these posts interesting or useful?
Shall I continue or stop?Huh?

Thanks,
KL

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learstang
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 04:38:07 AM »

Konstantin, the difference between criticising ICM and Hasegawa for inaccurate models is that these are companies, not people.  Erik Pilawskii is a person.  That difference in and of itself makes it "personal" when it comes to criticism.  The following phrase from you, "Pilawski was rude and bad-mannered" could certainly be considered a personal attack, justified though it may be.  I think what Massimo and Graham are talking about is let's tone down the language a little bit.  It's not that I think you're incorrect; quite the opposite - when I had accepted EP's research as accurate whilst I was first writing my book on the IL-2, you showed me that his research was inaccurate, and you came up with evidence to prove that.  That help (and Mario's help on the same) was invaluable and was and is greatly appreciated by me.

Perhaps one way to make it less personal is not to mention Erik Pilawskii so much by name, but simply to criticise his books, and to point out their inaccuracies.  However, your viewpoint may be that EP's research is so tainted, that people should be alerted to anything bearing his name.  Perhaps you're correct; however I do think that sometimes these discussions over VVS colours do take on the appearance of personal jihads against anyone who doesn't believe in the one, true faith.  In this case is seems that the "Albom Nakrasok" is treated like the Bible, and V&O are the true disciples.  I have to admit when I first got involved in the question of VVS colours, it seemed to me to be more like a (un)civil war than an intelligent and dispassionate discussion about verifiable facts.  I can see how people can be put off by the tone of such arguments.  Just my tuppence.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 07:35:36 AM »

Konstantin,
I fully agree with Jason, the attacks to EP and his book are exaggerate and can give the idea of something personal. Even to someone that was banned by him.
Of course, we all appreciate corrections and contributions with new documents, and agree that one has the right to write his own opinion... but this was repeated too many times in each occasion.
I think that the idea to enlist corrections and criticisms to this book is good, leaving the total attacks that have been repeated too many times.
Besides, I know that the resarches of Vaklamov, Orlov and Akanihin are much more reliable, but it's not good to citate them as bible and repeat always that all that is out of this is fruit of ignorance and misconception.
I don't think that those authors have the idea that their work is fully definitive, and many doubts are still open.
I suggest to improve the translation of the text of Orlov, it would be an useful way to employ time to advantage other modelers.
Regards
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 04:11:12 PM »

Jason and Massimo,
I think you're over-reacting and trying to be "politically correct" where it is not necessary. I have not seen any "personal attacks" on Pilawskii here. Re-read the big "Albom Nakrasok debate" on his site, initiated by him, and you'll see, again, who was attacking who.
Since Pilawskii published a book (actually books) he's no longer a "private person" but a "public person" as any other author/writer out there, that includes Orlov too. How many times did you read/hear that "such and such book by XY is a crap" etc. etc. Does this constitute a personal attack? I don't think so. I for one take the liberty to continue criticizing him freely, as required by a situation, by name, here or elsewhere. It would be actually welcome had he responded to this criticism. He had the opportunities during the above mentioned "debate" (I was among the "challengers") but he decided not to react in any meaningful way, as expected (appropriate ?) from an "acclaimed researcher and author", as he identified himself.
You should also realize that necessity to talk about Pilawskii rose due to this board members' inquiries. These folks maybe new to the topic or returned to it after some time, revived the interest... like Xan, Apex, myself, and others.
Nobody is trying to be dogmatic about V-O work either. But until its correct and full English translation is fully accessible it's crucial V-O findings are being repeatedly quoted. And we should consider ourselves lucky to have the first-hand access to this information here thanks to some members competency in Russian language.
All that said I agree that critical overview of his book should be done and "pinned".
Cheers,
Mario
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John Thompson
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 04:26:44 PM »

I held off responding to this thread because of a number of conflicts I have over this whole issue and the way it was brought out here; all that aside, the work of a few individuals (without naming anyone - you know who you are) has made this site and its forum a very valuable resource for those who have a genuine interest in the subject matter. I don't want to see that put at risk. By now, the possibility of error in Erik's book has been widely highlighted in this and other forums. At this point it would be most productive to concentrate on identifying and correcting those errors; I ask everyone please to give Massimo their continued support in making this ultimate resource for VVS modelbuilding and history enthusiasts.

John
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learstang
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 07:21:57 PM »

Mario, the term "political correctness" has been so misused and abused that I don't even know what it means anymore.  All I'm saying is a little less vitriol against Mr. Pilawskii might go a long way.

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 07:35:59 PM by learstang » Logged

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mholly
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 09:09:32 PM »

Hi Jason,
Quote
"political correctness" has been so misused and abused that I don't even know what it means anymore
I was reluctant to use it but in a hurry couldn't come up with other expression, sorry about that.
You understood however, I have no doubt.
Otherwise I fully agree with abuse etc., same as "democracy".
Quote
All I'm saying is a little less vitriol against Mr. Pilawskii might go a long way.
If formulated this way I agree again. Otherwise, like I said, I feel free to criticize his work on a factual and situational basis.
Cheers,
Mario


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learstang
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 04:40:37 AM »

Fair enough, Mario!

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

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mbittner
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 12:32:28 AM »

Don't know why I'm finally responding, but have decided to.

It was all the vitriol that has put me off VVS modeling, probably for ever. One of the reasons I no longer have the will or desire to update "our" site.

Yes, Erik is a friend, although I also let our discussions cease as well. I'm tired - and too old - to let the negative-isms (from all sides) get to me like it used to. So, my choice is to ignore it all.

I may still build, from time-to-time, VVS 'tweeners, but anything else (well, maybe I-16s and Il-2s) I no longer have the desire to model.

I'll still follow discussions, both here and on our (dead) forum, but I will not participate any longer. I know most don't care, but just in case anybody was wondering why "our" site has not been updated as it used to, as well as why I'm not building any VVS.

Hopefully this won't generate too much of a flame war. If it does, my apologies to Massimo.

Be that as it may, though, I still have P&J's NV-1 to finish...  Wink
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:52:58 AM by mbittner » Logged

Matt Bittner
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John Thompson
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2011, 02:19:19 AM »

Hey Matt - good to see you! I still owe you an e-mail - I haven't forgotten! Wink

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 07:37:20 AM »

Hi Matt,
I see. I imagined that it was in this way.
I agree that all this vitriol is out of place: painting of planes should be an emotively flat argument.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 08:05:09 AM »

Regarding the few answers I got:

Jason, thanks for the advice.  Appreciated!!!  "Tainted research" I will remeber that one!

Mario and John, thanks for the support, direct or indirect.

... continuous vituperative attacks on this book and its author...  I also feel that such continual bad-mannered attacks are counterproductive...

I agree that all this vitriol is out of place: painting of planes should be an emotively flat argument.

An example for vitriol and bad mannered attacks (Pilawskii's own words in the "GOSKHIMIZDAT's 1948 Catalogue Examined", aka the Public Debate):

... a Russian poster claimed this was an historical record of VVS lacquers! The mind reels at such stupidity.

source:  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html

Graham, Jason, Massimo could you please comment this?

Thanks,
KL
 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 12:03:43 PM »

Quote
An example for vitriol and bad mannered attacks (Pilawskii's own words in the "GOSKHIMIZDAT's 1948 Catalogue Examined", aka the Public Debate):

... a Russian poster claimed this was an historical record of VVS lacquers! The mind reels at such stupidity.

source:  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html

Graham, Jason, Massimo could you please comment this?

Hi Konstantin,
I made seven or eight posts of comment to that text of EP on Arcforum.  I could have added something more then, but it looks unuseful to do this now, after more than a year.
However, by that text EP caused great discredit to himself and the end of his fame of expert. Why should we do the same thing now?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:18:48 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
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